Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait Safest northern limit for Threadfin Shad?

I've always been under the impression that threadfins will only survive in the south and can't take winter very far north in the U.S. I have a contact on a fishing forum that wants to plant them in his pond and I've told him he's too far north. He's in the Indianapolis area of Indiana. I would think a pond is also more likely to suffer quicker temp changes than larger bodies of water and would even be more at risk. I believe this is a 3 acre pond.

Thoughts?

Edit: I don't see them on the allowed species list for Indiana so I have doubts they can be legally planted so the above may be just academic.

It depends on the water. In big water with deep refuge they can last longer. It also has a time and weather range. Bad winter = big loss. Some years ok some not. For example in the real deep south - gulf coast + 100 miles they are safe , I-20 corridor safe most of the time 4 out of 5 years , I-40 corridor iffy on small waters every other year some die-off. Roughly north of Tenn north line real iffy - my guess < %5 population survivability over 5 years in small waters. They don't all always die as you can have a % survive while most die-off. If the % is enough you can keep a viable population absent a big cold event. I cannot suggest them for small waters north of the I-40 corridor unless you want to keep stocking them just about every other spring. That is a big expense. GShad and some of the other herrings are a possibility but I have doubts about GShad in small waters for many reasons discussed here.

It also requires a fertile bloom.

My pond is about 6 acres and 20ft deep im just off of I-20 and I lost most of them last year and i think i will lose the rest of them this year. So i would say that im about at the northern limit. I guess there may be some ponds that handle it different. Mine faces north to south so it catches alot of northwest winds and it cools the water off alot. My dads pond is east to west and down in a hole and it tends to stay a few deg. warmer.

We lost some last year (total ice over with 2 inch+ ice for a week - a once in 20 year event for us) as well but some made it through and reproduced. It appeared to be much worse in one lake than the other. We are in the I-20 corridor. Keep in mind that elevation change effects the general statement I made.

There is threadfin shad in the Ohio river so it really depends on the situation. We had some threadfin floating in Beshear after that last cold front but we won't know how well they survived until summer.

I wouldn't bet on them too far North of the Ohio river. Not unless the pond stays fairly warm all winter or doesn't stay below freezing too long. Tennessee might be "safe", but it's Kentucky I'm not too sure about.

Here is a link to a distribution map of USA for threadfins.
http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=493

Threadfins have large die-offs at temperatures of 45F. In laboratory testing no survival occurred when water temps were 41F. Your winter water temperatures will indicate survivability in your pond.

Threadfin shad survive in two BOW's near me in northern VA. One is a nuclear cooling lake where blue tilapia can over winter. The other is the Potomac River which is a large enough BOW that it apparently has warm water refuges to hold over at least a small number of fish. Plus there are a few warm water releases from power plants and water treatment centers that may also provide winter refuge for the shad. Each BOW is unique and I don't think you can just draw a line saying tshad will survive to here... Bigger BOW's will probably be more likely to carry them over through the winter than a 3 acre pond would.

Long term survival in ponds is different than rivers and large lakes.

They rarely survive in lakes up north except power plant lakes.

I know in North Carolina they have a hard time keeping them alive in big reservoirs.

They keep trying to establish them in the mountain lakes.

20,000 were recently stocked in Lake Lure. It remains to be seen if they survive this winter.

I wonder if there is any way you could improve mortality in a designed farm lake by using well water the way Cecil does to keep his trout pond cool in the summer. Could a small deep cove with external warming improve survival as far north as Virginia?

It would take considerable flow to keep some water warm enough in winter IMHO. I would think it would be more difficult to warm water in winter than to keep it cool in the summer due to density issues making your water warmer than 4 C. want to stay on top and get exposed to cold air.

A more viable alternative I would think would be to bring in YOY for the winter into a recirc system if they multiply profusely and grow fast enough in the spring, summer, and fall to provide sufficient forage for three seasons of the year.

They have to have plankton to eat and temps above 40. In a typical northern pond the warmest water will be 39 and at the bottom. A hard way to make a living.

Similarly to tilapia, I have often wondered how much of a negative effect this would have as the shad die off in the winter and decompose in the pond. You would think that water quality would be affected. For a smaller forage fish like TFS, in a pond with LMB, do you think most of the dying fish would be consumed, or that a large portion of the fish would be left to decay?