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#20477 01/20/04 06:53 PM
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At a small sportman's club lake (maybe 3 acres) near me, it has oodles of blue gills. In several hours of fishing over multiple days and one night using bluegill/bass/catfish appropriate lures/bait, a friend of mine and I caught hundreds of bluegill (many 9 - 11 inches), about two or three small (6 - 10")largemouth bass, and nothing else.

One theory is that there are some large bass or catfish predators in the lake that control the smaller bluegill. To support this theory, the person references the large bluegill with no apparent stunting and some big arches that have been seen on a fish finder.

Another theory is that maybe people have caught out the bass and bluegills are dominant. For this theory, it seems like I've read somewhere (I searched many of the threads here trying to find it) that it could be a sign of large bluegill dominating the lake and eating the fry so no competition develops.

The sportsman club is barely solvent so they can't afford to have it shocked and it is not conducive to seining or draining just to solve my curiousity.

What do you guys think the situation is as to balance of the fish population?


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#20478 01/20/04 07:27 PM
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sounds like a great place to catch BG for a fish fry. At three acres there aren't going to be alot of big bass or catfish, and the ones that are big have probably learned about hooks, Seeing that its a sporting clubs pond. What is the water clarity and depth like? There must be other ways to sample and study the pond.

#20479 01/20/04 09:44 PM
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Several situations could explain the abundance of large bgill in the club pond. One thing for sure the group of large bgill will not exist as it is for much longer than 2 to 3 years. After that they will start droping out due to old age. So unless conditions that created them (community structure or balance) are still present, then the group of large sized bgill will dissappear. Removing a bunch of these fish could jeprodize the condtions which created it.

If numerous snags and quite a bit of dense cover is present then I doubt that the large bgill are eating almost all the bgill eggs/fry.

If catch an release is practiced by many of the club's bass fishermen then I suspect that a good number of medium sized, hook smart bass 13" -19" and or large cats are cropping the intermediate bgill. If heavy harvest of bass occurs and cover is minimal then your theory of bgill preying on eggs/fry is plasuable.


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#20480 01/20/04 09:48 PM
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Belive it or not but alot of very large bluegill can acutally be a sign of overpopulated bass. If bass populations were low than there would be a huge abundance of 3-5 inch blugill (wich is what many pond owners shoot for). Since it can be hard to find a hook that fits into a 3" blugills mouth, you could see if they are there by walking the shores at night with a big flashlight. Did you check the weights of the bass that you caught and if so did you check on the relitive weight charts? If not, do so. You can learn a whole lot about the health of your pond by checking the relitive weights of your bass.
The low numbers of bass that you saw could have been a result of thier acivity level. Sometimes I could get my bass to srike a cigar butt and sometimes I wonder if they are there at all. The bluegill, on the other hand, almost always seem to be hungry. What was the water temperature, what kind of cover were you fishing, and how deep?
If the relitive weights on the bass you caught were low I would guess that there is actulally an overpopulation of BASS rather than bluegill and that you didn't see many because they just weren't active. If they are high (sugesting a low population of bass) than I would guess that there had previously been an overpopulation of bass resulting in the large amount of big bluegill and that there was somthing like an oxygen depletion over the summer that killed mostly bass due to thier higher oxygen demand (particularly the larger ones).

note: I'm not a biologist so that was only my best guess. All I can tell you for sure is that generaly alot of large bluegill is a sign of too many bass, alot of small bluegill is a sign of a heathfully low population of bass, and that you can learn almost as much by running some relitive weights as you could with a shocking survey.

-Scott


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#20481 01/20/04 10:04 PM
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P.S. Bill must have posted his reply just as I was in the process of writing mine. So anywhere they might disagree, just take his word above mine.


Take great care of it, or let someone else have it.
#20482 01/21/04 07:05 PM
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If memory serves... There are quite a few areas on one side that is fairly shallow (less than three feet) with moss on two sides. The deepest is around 15-18 feet. The water is usually clear enough to see down maybe 3 - 4 feet. It usually gets covered with what I believe is watermeal (I don't have Bob's book with me, but small green things float on surface).

The pond has trees on all sides with branches hanging over the water (except on the dam). There is some brush that I've seen in the water, but surprisingly considering the tree overhang.

The club no longer has many members and my gut feeling only is that not many people who fish the pond catch and release. I think most catch and cook. I may be wrong, but I don't think it gets that much fishing pressure as it is kind of off the beaten path and I've only saw someone else fishing it twice last year.

There were 100+ bluegill harvested last year of which I know. Some of those - especially the larger ones - had black spots and yellow cists or something on them.

I haven't fished it for several months. I plan to again in a few weeks. Back then, I didn't check relative weights. That was before I even knew about pondboss or there was such a thing as a relative weight.

The night we fished for catfish seemed like a perfect night for catfishing and we hit it hard using regular catfishing equipment and techniques without a bite.

We caught bluegill on everything from tiny flies and ice jigs to 1/4 ounce bass spinner baits. One time, I got tired of catching and releasing bluegill with my fly rod, so I hit it hard for bass without catching a one.

It has me kind of stumped. I'm not ruling out big fish being in it. I learned that lesson about three years ago. Myself and others had fished this pond (maybe 1.5 acres?) hard. We caught LOTS of small bass and occasionally a 2 lb channel, small bluegill or small crappie. I decided to totally redo it so I drained it. Seems like there were (guesses from memory not weighed or counted) about 30 channel cats between 2 and 5 pounds, 4 bluegill of about 1/2 pound each, about 7 or 8 crappie in the 1.25 - 2 lb range, maybe 15 smaller crappie, one bass of about 6 lbs., four grass carp between 30-40 lbs, and oodles of bass between 8 and 11 inches. Seems like most (except the big bass and grass carp) were relatively thin. Based upon what we caught over a long period of fishing, I would have bet there were no fish in it (besides the grass carp or cats) over 1/2 pound; but there was.


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#20483 01/21/04 07:11 PM
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I should have reviewed the post prior to posting. Noticed some grammatical errors... Oh well.

On this part, "There is some brush that I've seen in the water, but surprisingly considering the tree overhang." I omitted the "little" as in surprisingly little brush considering the trees overhanging the pond.


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#20484 01/21/04 08:49 PM
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Ample brush as cover should provide good cover for any small bgill gry that make it out of the nest. Possible as you say that the large hungry gills are robbing nests. Thin or skinny large bgill are a sign that nest robbing could be occuring. This spring before weeds get too thick try some fishing with live bait and some small bgill (2"-3") or maybe live crayfish. Use a bobber or fish the small fish tight line and slow near bottom with enough weight to keep it down near the bottom. If you have some larger predators you should be able to catch a few of them. You may have to get bgill or crayfish from other waters than the club pond. If you can get a small boat on the pond try some evening or night jug fishing for the catfish.


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#20485 02/04/04 01:34 PM
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Bill/Folks:

Before all this snow hit the Erie and Edinboro, Pa. areas (we have two to three and a half feet on the ground...and on top of my pond), I noticed that my bass were only averaging 9 to 12 inches and most of my bluegill are in the 3 to 6 inch range. In other words, I am kind of disappointed in what I have right now. I want to swing things around to having much larger bass at the expense of smaller bluegill, if necessary, along with a good perch population just to have some panfish I really enjoy. Anyones's tips on how to get there would be much apprciated (i.e. other types of forage, catching out this or that, etc.).

#20486 02/05/04 08:49 PM
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Rangersedge

Just a thought, but would you be allowed to throw out some fish food on a fairly regular schedule to obtain a rough estimate on the catfish population?

#20487 02/05/04 08:51 PM
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Mark C.

How old is your pond? When was it stocked and how many of each species were stocked?

#20488 02/06/04 09:56 AM
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The pond is 25 years old, still in good shape for its age and sediment, and hasn't been stocked in years except for some perch, bass, grass carp and golden shiners I put in it last year. I just got this old girl last year and have been trying to rehab her ever since. I know some day it will have to be dredged, but the recent purchase has limited the funds for that deal for now.

Through site fishing it, I saw where it already has a noticeable bass and gill population and there are a handful of bigger fish (bass) to be sure. I did introduce about 20 "new" bass to the water to help with the inbreeding issue. But, I know I got to take some fish out when summer rolls around again.

My goal is for a pond with a few, but large bass, a good perch population for the frying pan, and some gill for forage and the kids. I also want to establish a golden shiner population for even more natural chow.

I have been researching PondBoss, various publications, and the university research circuit on-line for information on the approach. But, I would like to hear some advice from the good folks who particpate in this forum. They are from the school of experience! So, any advice for a northern pond is much appreciated.

#20489 02/06/04 08:46 PM
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Yes. I'm sure no one would object to my feeding the fish. Doing it consistently would be difficul with my work schedule though. I think I will see about putting some stuff out to chum and see if I can catch any catfish.


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#20490 02/07/04 03:52 PM
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Mark C.

If your pond has a lot of silt you may want to try to improve you bluegill spawning grounds. Get some pea gravel and make a few gravel bars in about 2ft of water in several spots around the pond. Sink christmas trees or some other dense cover around the edges of the gravel for the fry to hide in so they can grow. For big bass 4-5 inch bluegills are optimal. If there isn't much cover then your bass will eat virtually every 2 inch bluegill which won't help the bass much or the bluegill population. I believe a month or so in pond boss they talked about a feeder that'll help in feeding the smaller bluegill which will most likely speed up their first year growth. Oh, If the sediment is eating up all the gravel you dump in you could place some kind of liner down to keep the gravel from sinking in. Hope this helps.

#20491 02/09/04 07:21 PM
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FWIW: The pond's maximum depth seems to be 19'. I'm aware of several bluegill and redear being caught (4 - 9" mostly 7" range) while ice fishing this winter. I've also heard of or seen 2-3 small bass, 2-5 crappie (10-12"), and one Warmouth being caught.


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#20492 02/10/04 07:29 PM
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Thanks, Guy. I'll give your advice a try this spring.

#20493 02/11/04 09:58 AM
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One other interesting aspect to large Bluegill populations. In the 1990's there was a study done to determine the effect that large parental male Bluegills have on the reproductive functions of the entire population. Basically, they found that in the presence of large parental males, smaller males put less energy into reproductive functions and, as a result, the smaller males grew faster. Keep in mind that because of the huge amounts of energy Bluegills put into reproductive organs, nesting and spawning activity and nest defense, their growth rates are reduced after reproductive behavior begins. So, as a result, if the large parental males were removed from the population, then the smaller Bluegills matured sooner, which reduced growth rates. This happens quite often in locations with heavy fishing pressure where the large Bluegill are kept and the smaller ones are returned. However, you will usually find that if there are exceptionally large Bluegills present in abundance, there is little fishing pressure, or people are throwing back the big ones, which slows the sexual maturation of the smaller ones, making them grow faster.


Mike Robinson
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#20494 02/11/04 10:39 AM
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Good points Mike. I believe that research was done by the Illinois Natural History Survey people?

In my state of Indiana lakes are pummled by anglers that keep as many large males as possible as there is no bag limit or size limit. I've seen people wipe out a channel of spawning bluegills in a couple of days.

I guess our state has not seen the research as everytime a regulation is proposed by John Q. Public it's shot down, and the reasoning given is the more bluegills harvested the faster the growth rate due to a better food supply. Overly simplistic and outdated.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






#20495 02/11/04 01:33 PM
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That's right Cecil. Here's the reference:

JENNINGS, MARTIN J., CLAUSSEN, JULIE E., PHILIPP, DAVID P. 1997: Effect of Population Size Structure on Reproductive Investment of Male Bluegill. North American Journal of Fisheries Management: Vol. 17, No. 2, pp. 516–524.


Mike Robinson
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#20496 02/11/04 03:09 PM
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Thanks for the info, poulation dynamics and fish behavior are probably my favorite topic. Most of the time those two ideas are inseperable. Would it be possible to impose slot limits on BG to maintain large fish in the population? How big of males does it take to suppres the sexual development of the smaller males?

#20497 02/12/04 11:41 AM
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The biggest problem with imposing slot limits on Bluegills is getting others to comply...it's awful hard to throw back a whopper Bluegill.

My understanding of this issue is that actual size is not important - rather relative size is what matters. If you have complete control over your fishery and you wanted to create or maintain the effect of large parental males suppressing sexual maturation of smaller males, I would consider catch & release only on the largest 25-50% of the male population.


Mike Robinson
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#20498 02/17/04 04:01 PM
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So Mike, if you want to increase the size of your bluegills, and also reduce their number in a pond you control, you would return the large bluegills you catch and harvest or transplant to another pond the smaller ones? Now, would that still allow for a bluegill forage for the bass you have present? Do perch in a controlled pond have any negative tendancies to other fish or food? Would you harvest them in the same fashion as Gills to build up their size? What do they eat? Thanks.

Mark

#20499 02/17/04 08:55 PM
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Many people, myself included, have hybred bluegills. They are larger and more aggressive than the male bluegills. Will they dominate the spawning grounds to the exclusion of the male bluegills?


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#20500 10/23/04 05:56 PM
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Maybe you know something I don't. I need input. Being investigated for importing "Bluegills". Didn't do it. Found juveniles in my private pond, thought they were the local species...pumpkin seed (Lepomis gibbosus) . We trapped from my pond and stuck them in a tank in the barn. The State of Maine IF&W pathologist say they are bluegills. BIG ISSUE: Maine classifies Bluegills as an Invasive yet Established species. And they are illegal. State pathologist identified his sampling as such...15 taken from tank had 11 identified as bluegills, they have not told me what was in my pond. They would/will not show us the labs and wanted to rotenone my pond. I pursued wanting to see the labs. I am now being investigated for importing. We did not import anything. [B][/B]
We sought an independent lab to identify the fish. We were told that from a sampling of 15, 8 were definitely pumpkinseed, the other 7 were had variant bluegill characteristics. 50% of the fish taken from my pond were identied as pumpkinseed and the others, again, with variant bluegill characteristics. Now, I am comparing all sunnys and trying desperately to find someone who knows how to identify juvenile bluegills(Lepomis macrochirus) and juvenile pumpkinseeds((Lepomis gibbosus). I see no variation yet to distinguish identifiable characteristics, marking one species as not the other.
Hybridization of these and those makes it challenging to distinguish, so HOW do we? How are juvenile sunfish distinguishable, specifically pumpkinseeds from others?

The State of Maine is beginning to question this too. I found a question from the State of Maine inquiring at this as well on the Fishbase Forum. Good. It needs to be questioned. I have already had them steal my fish though and am having to prove a negative.They came with a search warrant and an accusation of importing and now are questioning how to identify juveniles.

Can anyone help at all? -Cynthia 207-845-3048


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