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Hi all! I just found this site and it is EXACTLY what I've been looking for! I just printed out about two inches worth of paper to read from here. Here's my story:

About a year ago a friend bought some land with a 3 and 1/2 acre pond on it (it seems slightly smaller in size to my eye, but that's what he says it is). It's a good size pond, anyway, and ranges from 6 to 10 feet deep in the middle...of course shallower by the banks. The previous owner said it's about twenty years old. My buddy doesn't fish much and so he put me in charge of managing it. I've read all I could and went to work on it last year. Here's my game plan and questions.

My initial evaluation of the pond via fishing over several months showed there to be many large bluegill (almost no small ones) and many small skinny bass less than 12". I also caught a few perch and black and white crappie (all good size). There were no crayfish under rocks by the banks, and no visible minnow life. So, the only obvious problem was bass overpopulation and a lacking forage base.

The pound lacked structure, with perhaps only six or seven boxes built from 2x4s and some bolders sunk here and there. I figured it needed some brushy structure to hide the smaller fish and minnows. So far I've sank seven or eight christmas trees and five or six bundles of brush in water ranging from 2 to 7 feet. I've also sank a few stumps and some cinder blocks in piles. How many brush piles consisting of how many christmas trees do you guys suggest per acre?

My next step was to remove some of the bass. I read that 25 pounds per acre should come out. So, I figured 2 fish under 12" per pound X 25 = 50 fish per acre x 3.5 acres = 150 fish. So far I've removed about 108 bass.

This pond recieves some crop field runoff during heavy rains and thus the weeds were a little above average. We put in 20 grass carp to control them. It also experienced an above average fish kill in the spring. To help prevent spring fish kills and help control the weed problem we installed a windmill aeration system.

The next step was to build up the forage base. We added 100 more bluegill and 3200 fathead minnows. We also plan to dump another 3200 fatheads in this spring. What other forage fish would you suggest stocking and can I expect any of the fathead population to survive?

Other fish we stocked last year include: 90 black crappie, 250 yellow perch, 180 shellcrackers, 350 channel cats.

I was also told that the previous owner only had put in largemouth, smallmouth (never caught one), perch, crappie, bluegill, and a few channel cats. All of which are fine, and luckily no bullheads, carp,green sunfish, or other "bad" fish were stocked.

However, he did mention that he put in 3 blue cats and one 12 pound (at the time) flathead about five years ago. I saw one of these cats last spring surface and it was HUGE! I've heard mixed opinion on bluecats being safe for a pond but I know for sure the flathead needs to come out. I'd also prefer to remove the three blues to be safe. Any ideas beyond using a live bluegill and fishing all night?

Any tips or advice you guys could give me would be great. Thanks again.

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Your situation is very similar to mine in that i bought a lake 4 years ago with some of the same issues. Have Bob Lusk or some of the other experts advise you, but several things I noticed. First, the aggressive removal of all bass under 14 inches will do wonders. Next, I seems the number of bluegill (100) you put in is way too low for the size pond you have. I removed all crappie I caught and also removed some of the larger catfish as they compete with the bass for table fare. I strongly suggest protein feeder(s) for the bluegill. Of course, a professional analysis of your lake by shocking would be a good starting point. Good luck and have fun.

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Critterhunter,

Welcome! I'm sure the others will chime in but while they are loading their ammunitiion, I'll toss this out. If I was a betting man, I'd say you are going to get some negative responses concerning the stocking of crappie, due mostly to the size of your pond. There have been a number of discussions in the past concerning which types of fish fit best in certain size ponds/lakes, so take some time to read through the various threads on this site and no doubt you'll walk away with alot to think about.

By the way, where are you located?

Russ

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Hello to all.

In the "north" country, we would have called your original pond situation a "panfish option." Sometimes we purposely crowd largemouth bass, resulting in a higher density of primarily smaller (lots less than 12 inches long) bass. They tend to grow slowly, and often are a little thin. This high density of small largemouth bass will thin out the small panfishes such as bluegill. The surviving bluegills then have a lot less competition for zooplankton and insects, and grow quickly to larger sizes, with many reaching 8 inches and a few reaching 10 inches. This is one way to produce large panfish without a feeding program. We're not real big on feeding programs in the north, because the long winters coupled with increased nutrients from the feed may increase risk of winterkill.

Anyway, here's my question for the various readers. I've been following the PondBoss forum for the past several months. It seems that most of the southern pond owners really want to manage for larger largemouth bass. In the northern states, at least some of the pondowners are more interested in the big panfish. Does this seem correct to everyone? What about the Ohio area? About the only explanation that I can come up with may have to do with maximum size. I tell most of our local pondowners that producing a 5-lb largemouth bass around here is pretty good, and a 6 or 7 pounder is a trophy.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Dave Willis


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Hi, and thanks for the replies thus far. We live and the pond is located in Northeast Ohio. A few points...

Yes, as I said I've done a lot of reading last year on pond management and know that stocking crappies (and yellow perch) can pose a problem.

However, as I said this pond is thick with bass under 12". I did extensive fishing using many different methods and could not produce a bass over 12". I also caught a few (read less than 5) big crappies and no smaller ones. Big bluegills are easy to catch and a small one is the exception. A couple of perch were caught and these were good sized too, with no smaller ones.

Anyway, being that the pond looks to be suffering from a real lack of forage fish, I thought I'd lean to the side of those who say you can put crappie and yellow perch in "smaller" ponds like this. I'm hedging my bets that the bass will at least help to keep them under control for a while, and at the same time fatten themselves up real quick on this "new" source of foorage. A few friends and I do a lot of "catch and keep" fishing and so I'm also betting that we can control the perch and crappie if they start to get stunted. I've also read that crappie tend to overpopulate in ponds with too much cover and/or weed growth where they can escape bass predation. Since this pond has little structure and we've got the weeds under control this should help.

I believe this pond was a victim of not enough people keeping bass. So, I plan to remove another 50 to 100 bass this spring (depending on how numerous they seem to be) and try to get those left fat and growing. Once they show signs of full bellies and increased growth I'll change to a slot limit of some kind to maintain a good balance of bass. Any suggestions?

I know that bluegill should be present at about 500 per acre, and being that there were already a good number of big bluegill present I figured that nature would take it's course if I cut down on the bass numbers. This, combined with the perch and crappie numbers being increased via the stockings we did, is what I'm hoping will get the forage base energized.

We put in 3200 fathead minnows. I know...many people say they will disappear in time, but I figured it can't hurt and who knows. My final strategy was to sink brushy cover for the minnows and younger fish. I still feel the pond needs more brushy cover, and plan to add a bit more this spring if I can talk my friend into letting me. Does anybody have any formula for number of Christmas trees per pile and how many brush piles per acre?

What I'm mainly looking for is advice on other potential forage species. I don't like the idea of putting shad in there but I've read mixed reviews on shiners and am wondering if this is an option. I also plan to dump a bunch of crayfish in this spring since they appear to be absent in the pond due to the high bass numbers.

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Critterhunter, Welcome to the greatest website in the world!!! I too just aquired an exsiting lake recently and here's a nickles worth of free advice. First, Read all posts pertaining to your situation, this website has it all! Second, buy the books Basic Pond management, and Raising Trophy Bass, You will find everything from fish stocking formulas to planting brushpiles and a whole lot more. And last of all, keep asking questions. ENJOY! These things have helped me a ton and come this spring I will be ready and informed to get to work on my own trophy fishery

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Critterhunter, Dave Willis has hit on an important question regarding what your goal is. I'm based in the Northern Illinois and Southern Wisconsin area, and there are a variety of stocking philosophies available. Is your primary goal large bass or a variety of fish? Unfortunately, it is difficult to have it all, so you should choose one main goal. Many of my customers do want it all, but eventually we usually end up seeking a balanced diverse population.

I think you were right to remove some bass, but go easy, because they are the main reason that you don't have other problems. Also, there is a down side of introducing minnows, shad or shiners. Currently, the pan fish and bass are providing the majority of the forage. If you introduce a large amount of minnows that "take," plus remove a bunch of predators, you could be heading for a real stunting problem that 2 guys fishing would be hard pressed to control (it's no fun trying to catch 200,000 3" crappie). I'd recommend seeing what the results of the thinned bass population are before you take further actions. If you do too many things at once, you have a hard time differentiating the results.

As for the Christmas trees, they are not highly recommended. You can review the habitat discussions on this site for some great ideas.

I hope this helps,

Mike Robinson
Keystone Hatcheries


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David Willis,

You know, when I used to be a catfish and bream fisherman, I used to have a lot more fish dinners and a lot more money in my pocket. Then I fell in with bad company and now have 5 or 6 big tackle boxes and a whole bunch of fishing poles. Maybe I'm trying to grow more hair on my chest.

Seriously though, I believe more people fish for cats and bream than for bass. Bass just gets more advertising time due to the market for lures, boats, and all other associate gear. Theres just not much marketing that can be done for crickets, earthworms and chicken livers.

Fishman might have more statistics on this.

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Dave Willis,

The goal I have for one of my ponds is to create a good panfishing hole for the neighborhood kids and myself. This includes both catch and release in addtion to providing an occasional meal. In addition to the fishing, a pond offers all kinds of cool stuff for a young curious mind to explore. Its amazing how many hours a kid will spend stalking that one big frog that always seems to get away at the last minute!

Russ

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Critterhunter,
Grow bluegill. Thinning bass is crucial, now focus on bluegill production. A little bit of floating fish food goes a long way. Even if you only fed two pounds of commercial pellets daily for 150 days, you still gain measurable benefits. 300 pounds of feed costs $90, but grows 150 pounds of bluegill.
Also, remember this..if you can increase survival rates of newly hatched bluegill, your food chain will benefit tremendously.
Here's the catch, though. To get survival rates up, a pond needs a measurable plankton bloom during the spawn. Enriching water with nutrients north of the Mason-Dixon line can cause problem during winter months when ponds are frozen, especially when ice is covered with snow.
So, to keep you off thin ice, read as much as you can on this site. You will get plenty of answers.


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I also have alot of small bass!! At first I thougt this could be a problem. But now I think it could an oppertunity to stock a few crappie! Besides my lake is 9 acres not 3 and is about 7 feet deep on average and the water is real clear, could this work??

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It could work, temporarily. While initially stocked crappie can survive and grow, with adequate food, the situation must change.
It's not a matter of "if" as much as "when".
With overcrowded bass, stocking crappie only adds more predator mouths to feed, and you likely are adding a different problem on top of the problem of too many bass.
Want to manage predator fish?
Become an expert at managing what they eat. Forage fish.


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Thanks for the information. I plan to fish it some this spring to see if there are still zillions of skinny bass under 12". If so, I'm going to remove another hundred before the spawn. I also plan to add 100-300 more bluegill before the spwan to increase their numbers. This pond gets runoff from two crop fields when it experiences heavy rains. As a result it gets fertilized by mother nature, and enjoys healthy amounts of algie. One of the reasons we put in grass carp and channel cats, the algie can be thick like a soup at times covering the bottom and such. Anyway, I plan to keep removing bass until I start seeing size growth and full stomachs.

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Thanks to all who commented on my bass vs. panfish question.

Bob Lusk -- would you mind telling me what type of split you might see in your customers? What percent are looking more for big bass, what percent are more interested in quality panfish, and what percent want both?

Thanks.

Dave


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Critterhunter, Looks like a good plan with bass harvest, but as mentioned by Bob fish food (that grow bluegill) would do more than fatheads in an established pond to fed your bass.

Dave, I was going to chime in anyway, about your comment. One thing that bugs me is blanket answers...I'm reluctant to answer some question b/c it may be basic, but want to provide some help. Many recommendations are based on general plan. the first question I ask the pondowner is what are your goals for the pond. I look for specfic answers before making recommendations. To answer the question you ask Bob... here In GA (based on 75 new clients per year) I get about 50% QUALITY BASS 25% TROPHY BASS, 10% QUALITY BREAM, 10% OTHER SPECIES, 5% CATFISH MANAGEMENT.


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Thanks for the input, Greg. I appreciate it. Very interesting, actually.

I'm with you on trying to get the pondowners to actually "decide" what they want. In our SD pond booklet, we have a "key" that I always try to get them to read. It forces them to decide what they want (make choices other than big fish and lots of 'em), and then determine whether their habitat (that is, their pond) is suitable for that management strategy.

Again, thanks for you time.

Dave


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Mr. Grimes hit the nail on the head when he says that YOUR MONY IS BETTER SPENT ON BLUEGILL THAN ON FATHEADS.

You read that if you stock fatheads they will probly be gone eventually but, when you have a lake full of hungry bass larger than even a few inches "eventually" is a matter of days or even hours for that matter.

Please, learn from my mistake. Last summer (while I was still severly new at lake management) I was appauled to discover that my recently purcased pond contained no minnows. So a few hundred dollars later 7000 minnows swam from plastic bags into my favorite liquid toy. "That should do it." I say "minnows are so prolific the bass couldn't possibly eat enugh to keep up with their spawning" WRONG! And even though there was plenty of other forrage fish to chose from, two days later was the last time I saw in minnow in there. Considering that minnows weigh about 1 Lb. per 1000 and bass gain 1 lb. for every 10 Lbs. they eat I added about 1 ounce of total bass weight PER ACRE.

So did I regret thinking minnows might produce any noticable difference in an established bass pond? You better believe it.


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P.S. I highly recomend Mr. Lusk's book, Raising Trophy Bass. I finnaly got my copy in the mail yesterday afternoon and stayed up past 2:00 AM untill I finished it. And I would predict that his book, Basic Pond Management, is just as good.


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Critterhunter,

I have had good sucess in stocking larger 3-6 inch bluegill after bass have been thinned down. I use a rate of 250 BG per acre. also, watch out for crappie. they can spawn in huge numbers and cause real problems with crowding. I would not stock crappie if it were my pond.

Shan O'Gorman
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Dave,
Honestly, most of my clients want a balanced fishery, with a legitimate opportunity to catch a double digit bass.
I would say that amounts to 90% of my clients. Those who want giant bass are probably 7 or 8% of my clients, and they are willing to expend the effort and money to go the distance. They are fervent, energetic and, for the most part, wealthy.
The other 2 or 3% want something "exotic" like hybrid stripers, or walleye or smallmouth or giant sunfish, etc.


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Thought I'd update you guys on the stunted bass problem. As said, last year I took out around 125 bass (25 pounds per acre), most of which where less than 12" and skinny. The pond lacked small bluegill (most were slabs) and not many small fish could be seen around the banks despite many methods of checking (day and night with a spotlight). Anyway, to build up the forage base we had thrown in about 100 more bluegill, stocked shellcrackers, stocked perch, stock more crappie (only a few perch and crappie were present in the pond), and stocked 3200 fathead minnows.

Although it's too early to tell yet my initial checking this year looks good. I spotlighted the pond the other night and saw numerous small fish (mostly bluegill) in the shallows from last year's spawn (too early for this year's). I also saw some small schools of fatheads. My initial bass fishing resulted in one nice 13-14" bass with a fat belly on him. This is about the biggest bass I've caught out of there yet, and he was definitly the fatest yet. I also caught a few 6-9" bass that, although not real heavy, did show signs of more weight then fish in that size range last year.

I'm going to fish the pond over the next month and see how the overall bass picture looks. If I catch a lot and they look skinny and under 12" I may remove more this year...while throwiing back the ones that have "made it over the hump" into the teens lengthwise. If,however, some of the 12+" fish look skinny I might also remove some of them. My biggest concern is that I don't want to swing the momentum the other way, taking out too many bass and having a stunting problem with perch, bluegill, crappie. Opinions?

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sounds like your on the right track although I cringe at the thought of intentionally stocking crappie. under the right conditions the crappie can eat all the bass fry and cause the "swing in momentum" you are tring to a avoid. but if you have spent any amount of time here you have read this, educated yourself about proper management with crappie and made your stocking decision.

you may find that it takes a few years of removing bass to get the weight on them. I think it has to do with just how crowded they were and for how long. dont be surprised if your 12 inchers dont show much weight gain. your idea of throwing back the better looking fish and keeping the skinny ones works well in most of my Georgia ponds. after this year if your bluegill dont seem to be coming around consider stocking some 3-6 inch BG at a rate of 200-250 per acre. I have had great results doing this. I have noticed this seems to work better when the larger bluegill are stocked during the winter. I think survival is better becasue bass are not eating as much, and bluegill are easier to haul in cooler water.

good luck

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I feel like I've learned a lot from guides like the one I have linked here. They present a very balanced approach to managing fish population and the appropriate yearly harvest to keep it balanced. If your goals are for monster pan fish or monster bass you will need to adjust accordingly. TWRA Managing Small Fishing Ponds and Lakes in Tennessee

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As Shan mentioned don't expect too much growth this year. Did you run your RW's. If so I notice about 5-10% increase per year when harvesting the right numbers of bass. JUst think they did not stunt over night so they will not fatten over night either but sounds like your on the right track.


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Thanks for the input. I'm guessing that the increase in smaller yearling fish I've noticed is due to several factors: Removing bass, stocking more gills and other species, and sinking brushy cover that this pond lacked. The perch and crappie that had already been present in this pond were big and few in numbers. I'm sure this was due to the stockpiled bass. I know the crappie can be tricky, so I'll keep an eye on them and remove a bunch if they look like they are out of control. My garden can always use some fish fertilizer so I'm more than willing to take out a bunch of small ones. Ice fishing it this winter I only caught one crappie and it was a nice one. Caught a few nice perch and only a few small ones so they look like they are doing well. I've noticed a slight decrease in average bluegill size compared to last year, with the biggest ones being a bit smaller. This, I'm sure, is also a sign that I've shifted the balance a little more over to the forage side of the scale. I guess the only way to tell is to fish for bass when the water gets a bit warmer. Last year I could catch about 40 bass in an hour, all smaller than 12" and skinny. If they are as easy and numerous to catch and still starving then I'll pull another hundred or so. A friend of mine owns a 1/3rd acre pond that is so silted in that it's only about 2 to 3 feet deep and has no fish. I plan to dump some fatheads in there to breed threw the summer and then net them out for the other pond. Any idea on how many to stock? Do you think they'll survive in a black sludge pond like this? What about golden shiners?

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