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OK -- we all know I'm not as young as most around here.

Monofilament line was a new phenomenon when I was a kid. I hated it, but it was the only thing that would work on the "new" Johnson and Shakespeare "spinning" reels -- open-faced, or closed-face. I also learned to love it most of the time, as we didn't get "back lashes" like we got with our braided line. Instead, we just got nasty tangles and knots -- but, no where as frequently as backlashes. Through the 50s and 60s, 70s, and 80s, the lines just seemed to get better and better.

Fast forward to the new century . . .

I am again hating monofilament line.

Over the last several years, it seems like the monofilament formulas have changed significantly -- or, is it just me?

This fishing season has been the worst. I abandoned my favorite old ultalight reel, thinking it was the reel that was causing me so many problems. I tried several high-end brands of #4 and #6 test line. I bought a different brand reel, which acted exactly the same way after a few days. A little over a week ago, I bought a moderately high-end reel -- same story. I've tried three different brands of line, and they all have issues of coming off the reel too soon, twisting, tangling, and resulting in knots that require replacement of the line.

For more that 50 years, whenever I put new line on a reel, I fill the reel to rated capacity for the size, by pacing the length. I decide which side of the spool to pull the line from, depending on the twists. Even with that, I still cut the line at the source spool and tie a swivel and loop/clip on the end. I then stretch the line, and wind the line onto the reel. I usually do this two or three times to get the twists out of the line. This method worked for years. It doesn't seem to work anymore.

I'm having a terrible time with tangles that result in knots whenever I let my line go limp, or as I reel it in with a very light bait.

Am I the only person experiencing this?

Is there a #4 or $6 line out there that doesn't kink up after a day or so of use?

Thanks,
Ken


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Ken:

I too have experienced the twisting/tangling issues you describe. To lessen the aggravation, I will not purchase line on the small pony spools. It seems to me that the smaller the spool the tighter the radius on the coiled line. I also would like to know if there is a date on the package, as I suspect some of this line has been on the spool for some time, and low memory or not, I believe it will take a "set", and want to remain in the coil shape. I read somewhere that if you want to lessen line twist, do not crank the handle to flip the bail closed on open face reels. Instead, flip it down manually after the cast. I don't have any proof that this works, but I believe it has reduced the amount of time I spend straightening my line. Inline spinners are probably the biggest culprits for line twist, swivel added or not. Micro spoons are not much better. I never fill the spool all the way to the lip, as that seems to be an invitation for trouble. When I used to fish big water, I would release the line with nothing tied to it, and allow it to trail behind the boat while moving. It worked wonders. Now that I fish ponds, I guess I need to find a tall firetower on a calm day.


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While some people don't like it, I have had good results with the limpest line that Berkley offers, Maxima and Vanish for Fluro.

There are times when I'll have to flip flop the parent spool to keep the twist out of the line, and I also watch very closely what the lure is doing to the line. I have no faith in the quality ball bearing snap swivels to keep line twist out, so I rarely use them. It's something that I've lived with forever.

Ken, you are doing about everything you can to get the twists out, with the exception of dragging it behind a boat without anything on the line, including a snap or snap swivel to get the twists out.

If the line, when spooled on the reel, still keeps it's memory, then it's not new enough and will be a constant PITA to use.


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Righty-O!

first, always close the bail with your hand - it will become second-nature to you after a while but it takes practice to build it into a habit if you've been used to cranking the reel handle to close the bail. Actually, I'm not convinced that this practice has anything to do with line twist but, it's certainly better for the reel.

Lots of mono sits on the store shelves too long. If you're buying from a discount store - like Walmart - there's a good chance that it's been on the spool too long before it ever got onto the shelf in the store.
Very true about the small diameter supply spools! The tighter it is wound onto the spools - such as the small quantity spools, the worse it will be. Equally true of small reels. I love UL fishing and my reels are tiny little things with very small diameters so, mono has to be changed frequently - it just won't live long on those little spools w/o getting memory like crazy.

To save some money, I usually only put new line on the top 1/3 to 1/2 depending on the reel capacity. Or, I "back" the mono with some of the new (and my new favorite) PowerPro 10-lb test as a "just-in-case" so that if I get spooled by a fish or if I end up having to strip off a lot of the mono, I'll have a reliable line there as a backup option.

Basically, I think mono is the most expensive option for line even if it's the cheapest to buy because it just doesn't last. I use braid a lot on all my reels - spinning and baitcasting. It will last at least a year and I usually don't fill the reel all the way so that I can leave room to overlay it with mono or flouro depending upon conditions. Mono is still the best for crankbaits and spinnerbaits because you want a little bit of stretch to get better hookups though that's less important for most UL applications.

Finally, I don't know if mono has gotten "worse" except that it's gotten somewhat smaller in diameter. And, smaller diameter lines are always going to be more susceptible to memory and twisting issues.

BTW: any reel manufacturer that tells you that their reels are "designed to eliminate line twist" is just feeding you a line of bunk! it's not the reel that creates most of the line twist - it's the baits you're fishing! I fish mostly weightless plastics - like Senkos and they are going to twist the line no matter how you rig them. If you rig "whacky" like I do a lot of times or drop-shot, you're going to twist your line like crazy - swivels may help a little but nothing will prevent line twist in those applications.


If you're too scared to throw that bait where the fish are, why did you tie it on?
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BTW: any reel manufacturer that tells you that their reels are "designed to eliminate line twist" is just feeding you a line of bunk! it's not the reel that creates most of the line twist - it's the baits you're fishing! I fish mostly weightless plastics - like Senkos and they are going to twist the line no matter how you rig them. If you rig "whacky" like I do a lot of times or drop-shot, you're going to twist your line like crazy - swivels may help a little but nothing will prevent line twist in those applications.[/quote]


Now this statement above is as true as it gets! Good advice Al!!


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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I make no bones about the fact that I'm a complete amateur fisherman. For me a few of things have helped.

I use swivels a lot, in my limited experience they just seem to help reduce line twist. Some folks hate them but I like them. It makes lure changing easy and just seems to reduce line twist. With some types of lures they can affect the action of the lure though.

I use fluorocarbon line, I've tried several types of line and I like fluorocarbon the best. I buy it when it goes on sale at BPS or Cabelas in the big reels. I put the line on the reel according to the instructions (what a novel idea). One day I actually read the little instructions that came with the line on how to load it onto the reel (who knew loading fishing line was complicated). Anyhoo I read the instructions and followed them. It seemed to help.

At the beginning of each fishing outing I load a heavy lure and cast it way out across the pond (with an ultra light rig you can cast a heavy lure one heck of a distance) and then I just reel it in, just to straighten the line out.

Lastly based upon Bruce's and DIED's recommendation I bought a Shimano Spirex SR 1000 rear drag spinning reel. I absolutely love this reel. The trigger casting system is easy to use and the rear drag adjustment is fantastic. It's no magic remedy but it has made fishing much more fun for me. I try to remember to close the bail with my hand but I often forget.

The final tip I've been practicing is to close the bail just before the lure hits the water. In my limited experience it seems as though letting the lure hit the water before closing the bail is where I had the majority of my birds nests occur.

I know these aren't ground breaking suggestions (what were you expecting from JAIWAK) but they've improved my fishing experience significantly.


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So how does line-twist form? It is really quite simple. If the end of the line - the bait, lure or fly end - can rotate around its own axis, line-twist will work its way up the line. The more line out from the reel the further the twist will work its way up the line.

Using swivels that do not swivel is a
good method of building line-twist.But don't all swivels, swivel, you ask? Of course they do, I reply, but, and there always is a but - they will only swivel under the right conditions.

Too many anglers use a swivel that is too big. Swivels come in different sizes for the express purpose of matching fishing line-sizes. As a rough but good guide, the diameter of the wire used to make the swivel should match the diameter of the trace or leader you are using, not the main line. If you use too big a swivel there is not enough torque in the trace line to swivel the swivel.

Some anglers attempt to use a swivel as a stopper, i.e. in a running rig. Theory is the swivel has to be big enough to stop the sinker jamming down on the swivel or passing over it and running down onto the hook. A much better idea is to place a plastic bead on the main line above the correct sized swivel.

Misuse of spinning reels is a very common
method of producing line-twist.When playing a fish on a spinning reel and the fish starts to peel line off the reel, the angler must stop winding.

If line winding continues while line is being pulled off the reel, every turn of the reel handle will place, on average, five twists in the line.

Another way of putting line- twist in the line is
incorrectly filling the reel with line.

Spinning type reels must be filled with the side plate of the line-spool facing the front of the reel's spool. The line coming off the line-spool must be coming off in the same direction as it is going onto the reel. For overhead reels the line should come off the spool directly, with the line on the spool facing the line on the reel.

Line-twist can be removed and it is relatively easy,
especially if you have a boat. Motor the boat ahead at around five mph. Remove all terminal tackle. Feed out around 50m of line behind the boat, and leave it to straighten itself out, after a few minutes feed out another 50m, and so on until all the twist is gone.

You can test if removal is complete by pulling in some line, about 1 or 2m, back from the water and allow the line to fall loosely. If the line does not twist you can wind the line back on your reel.

Shore-bound anglers have a real problem. If you are near a rock platform that juts out into a strong current, the 'boat' method can be tried. Finding a river is another way.

Freshwater anglers can use a river to get rid of line twist. Stand in the current and slowly feed out line until the line twist is gone. If you are fly fishing remove the fly and indicator if any.

Another method is to find a beach with no swell, and walk along the beach feeding out line as you continue to walk along the water's edge, as in the 'boat' method.



Last edited by RC51; 09/15/10 11:42 AM.

The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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Great additions from RC!

I forgot about how many people just keep turning the crank as hard as they can when a fish is running out drag - you gotta just keep pressure on the fish but when it's running drag then don't reel; that's the time when you use your rod more than your reel when playing the fish.

BTW: bass fishing with UL gear (3-lb Trilene XL) will teach you more about how to use a rod and proper drag setups in a week than you can learn in a few years with heavy line and continuous hard reeling!

It's a reel - not a winch! wink

Good stuff RC!


If you're too scared to throw that bait where the fish are, why did you tie it on?
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Al,

I hooked into a 7-8 pound bass this morning with my ultralight setup, 4lb test trilene XL on a 5'3 ugly stik.

He blew up my reel, broke my line, and took my favorite crankbait with him.

I tried to let my pole do the work, but lost in the end frown


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Hey Al,

Thanks,


Gflo,

sorry to hear you lost the fight, but that is not the equipment you want with a 7 or 8 pounder that's for sure! I bet it was great fun while it lasted though hey? You did the right thing just not quite enough equipment for the job.


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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A trick I learned from Woo Daves take the lure off and trail all the line from the reel out the back of the boat. Then reel it back on. The water will give the line resistance and line will uncoil as it is reeled in. I do this to every reespool that I do and it works. If you get a start of a kink (loop) in the line cut the lure and do it again. Also Reel Magic at the tackle stoor works good to.

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Al, I can't see and/or feel 3 or 4 pound test. I like the idea of using it of using it but it doesn't like me. It's not all that forgiving.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I just don't get it!
Three lb test mono fishing line?
I use that size thread to tie flies.

And why fight spinning tackle with twisted snarled mono fising line?
I made my grandkids learn to use bait casting reels before I would take them fishing.
No problems with backlashes or bird nest unless casting too light of lures or bad windy conditions. Necessary to learn to set-up anti-backlash control, but that's another subject.

Spin tackle is not popular in my area - I don't even know any serious fishermen that use it.

I only have one spinning rig and dozens of bait casting rigs and fly tackle.

Why UL?
Maybe for northern folks with clear water - we don't have any of that around here ...?
Just kills big fish by overplaying them - my fish are too valuable to catch only once ...

Whew!!!!
Need another cup of coffee... laugh

ps: If small diameter mono fishing line is necessary, use it for terminal fly tackle leader/tippet material.
No twist, snarls or cussin ... grin

Last edited by george1; 09/16/10 06:23 AM. Reason: UL mono leader/tippet fly tackle


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Originally Posted By: Al Davison
Great additions from RC!

I forgot about how many people just keep turning the crank as hard as they can when a fish is running out drag - you gotta just keep pressure on the fish but when it's running drag then don't reel; that's the time when you use your rod more than your reel when playing the fish.

BTW: bass fishing with UL gear (3-lb Trilene XL) will teach you more about how to use a rod and proper drag setups in a week than you can learn in a few years with heavy line and continuous hard reeling!

It's a reel - not a winch! wink

Good stuff RC!


Al, you are a accomplished angler and give good advise.
It sounds to me you are ready to "step in up another notch" and give fly fishing a try.

Two of the very best fishermen that I know live in your home town!
And they are both dentists and we all know on the forum that dentists are good fishermen!

One is my nephew that I taught to fish when he was 5 years old and the other is our best fishin' buddy, whose good friend is a professional fisherman on the tournament trail.

PM me if you want to get in touch with them.
George Glazener



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George:

I've got one UL spooled with 2# test. I use it for BG fishing a small artificial lure. It's a matter of presentation and casting distance. When I'm ice fishing, I have one rod with 1# test on it. Clear water, teeny ice jigs.


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What is "ice fishing"?
grin grin grin



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Wow! Good thread! So many responses...I'll try to answer a few.

First, to george!: NO! NO! NO! I cannot afford to start fly fishing! I have a serious addiction to fishing gear and if I buy 1 flyrod then I'll end up with 6 or 8 and they will all cost more than $1,000 each! And then I'll be a divorced and homeless guy with $20K of fishing gear. wink Seriously, I used to use a flyrod for pan fishing and it was fun but I need to concentrate.

On george's other point: I feel your pain with the small line and hard to see and tie on thing! That's why I moved up to 3# line instead of 2#. I used to only use 2# but I can't see to tie it on easily any more so, I found that the 3# is OK. I imagine in a few years, I'll have to go to 4#. Getting old is not for wimps! wink

** I, too, prefer to fish with baitcasters whenever I can. I've got 1 b/c rig that is as small as I can afford to go - an Avid ML rod paired with a souped-up Daiwa TD Sol and it can handle 6# line OK but anything under that is just a mess. So, for true UL fishing, it's got to be a spinning rig for me right now.

*** Sorry to hear about your break-off on a big fish but, that does happen sometimes - just comes with the territory. A longer rod would help a little bit to cushion the line more. My favorite UL rod is 8'6" so, it does help. But, I also have a 6' Avid UL rod that works in tight places a bit better. And, I have had big fish break me off, too. It hurts!

**** I absolutely agree that it is very hard and stressful on the fish to play them that long! I do recognize and sympathize with that sentiment. I generally only bass fish UL in places where I don't expect to get a fish on that is more than a 2-pounder - unmanaged ponds that have way too many undersized bass are common around here. So, if I get a really good bass on with UL - like a 5+ pounder, I might just break it off on purpose rather than risk killing it. I fish a lot of UL in ponds that need to be culled.

***** I think ice fishing is when you accidentally snag your bait in your beer cooler but, I'm not sure...


If you're too scared to throw that bait where the fish are, why did you tie it on?
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When I bass fish I typically use 10 pound mono on a light action rod. Enough fight to keep it fun, but doesn't play them for too long.

I was fishing for bluegill with a teenie tiny 1/16th ounce snap bean in a heavy fished, unmanaged pond. I was not expecting something that big. I had previously never even seen a fish over 1 1/2 pounds come out of there.

I use UL setups so that I can cast tiny little crankbaits and inline spinners. Hard to cast more than 20 feet with anything above 4lb test.

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't out looking for monsters lol smile


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Gflo - I know what you mean.

I was fishing UL in a small pond once throwing a tiny little plastic craw on a jig and my buddy shouted - Wow! that was a huge bass that just swam right past our boat!

About that time, I realized that I had that fish on and my line was moving out at a high rate of speed. It fooled me by swimming right back at me so I didn't detect any bite at first. And, I surely wasn't expecting anything like that!

Anyway, the fish turned and went back into heavy cover and broke off but, I know exactly what you mean.

For people who say that you have to use big baits to catch big fish, well...they haven't had the same experience as you and I had. wink


If you're too scared to throw that bait where the fish are, why did you tie it on?
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Originally Posted By: george1
Spin tackle is not popular in my area - I don't even know any serious fishermen that use it.


When have you ever known me to be serious. laugh


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Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Originally Posted By: george1
Spin tackle is not popular in my area - I don't even know any serious fishermen that use it.


When have you ever known me to be serious. laugh

POOR CHOICE OF WORDS JEFF!!!!
I know you are serious - you just don't want to ruin your reputation...!
grin grin smile



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All and all I am a baitcaster myself, but the UL is fun to fight smaller fish with. If your on a pond why not use a lighter setup to have a little more fun with it. You may fight them a little longer but I don't think you will kill to many LMB by doing so. Or any type of sunfish for that matter. Now HSB that's a different story. They don't seem to do well after being caught, but I understand that Mr. George is the expert in getting his HSB back in the water correctly and quickly!


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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Originally Posted By: george1
What is "ice fishing"?
grin grin grin


George, I dont think an ice cube would last too long on a hook in these parts, huh?


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Wow.. between this topic and the one comparing how many species of fish everyone has caught, I really feel like a small fish in a big pond. But I can't resist replying to this thread. . So, to provide a different perspective, I'm gonna' tell you all how it's done in south central Indiana.... Hoosier style.
First off, a little background on me. It's important to realize that I only fish for Bluegill, period. No Bass, catfish, Crappie, Perch, and certainly not any saltwater species. Second, I no longer fish public waters. That's the point of me visiting this site, to learn to manage my ponds, so I don't have to go anywhere to fish for Bluegill. Only Bluegill, and their assorted cousins. Now for my ponds. There are 5, but only the one where I'm raising HBG is mowed and maintained. The rest are heavily surrounded by woods. I've never fished in Texas, but up here the trees grow down to the water's edge... within 24". A 9' flyrod? No way, ain't happening. Sure, I could take out the boat, or a float tube, but to me, the ability to carry everything I need is part of the experience. So that means bank fishing, with a 4.5' St. Croix avid, a Pflueger micro reel, and two spools of mono..4lb and 2lb. Sidearm casting up under overhanging branches right against the bank in the Spring, while tossing 1/64oz jigs and spinners in the fall. 1/64oz lures on a baitcaster? I doubt it.
Throwing deepwater while tree branches rubbed against your hair with a flyrod? Nope. So I guess that makes me a minority on this site, because for my style of fishing, anything over 4lb test belongs on your weedeater, not your fishing gear! And just for the record, I caught and landed a 28lb grass carp on this combo while BG fishing, and yes, it took 45 minutes and I ended up in the water with the fish to lift it up to the bank, but I got it. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but please forum members, remember that a few of us fish in what I consider "real world" conditions, that require different approaches than what you may be used to.

Respectfully,
Tony


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Tony, if you want to fly fish your ponds I can show you! It takes a slight bit more of "learning" but you can fish all of your ponds with a flyrod. Roll casting a fly is the technique you'd use for most of your ponds, like the one that has the bridge to the island.

Roll casting takes a bit longer to get the fly out than regular casting, but if you really wanted to fly fish the other 4 ponds you could.

With that said, I do 95% of my fishing up here with spinning tackle. I don't own a freshwater baitcasting reel (but I'm in the market for an Abu Garcia 6500).


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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