Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Renovating a Pond or Lake? Eliminating a weed before it spreads to other pond

Fellow Pond Owners,
I find myself in a need of a bit of sage counsel and although I have been reading and benefiting from this forum for several years I only recently joined so I could ask some specific questions.
I had my pond built in 1997, I have enjoyed it tremendously even considering I got some bad counsel in the beginning about aquatic planting, pond depth and oxygen. Originally I thought my family could take an occasional refreshing dip in the pond on hot summer days and had the pond dug to 8 feet close to the dam. There is a small island in the middle of this approximately ½ acre pond. I ordered a lot of different kinds of plants to provide oxygen for the fish. In the ensuing years I have had several learning experiences including one winter fish kill and a few less than refreshing dips in the pond. But having the pond as a renewable food source and fun fishing hole has been totally successful.
Now to the heart of the problem: Marisela Water Clover. You can read about this water fern Here: http://nas.er.usgs.gov/taxgroup/plants/docs/marsilea/marsilea.html My pond is completely surrounded by this stuff. Since I feed myself and my children out of the pond I do not want to use chemical intervention. But I may have an opportunity to turn a bit of bad luck into a solution that just might work and I want the considered opinions and suggestions from some folks that know a lot more than me. This past winter or spring sometime my pond was poached to nearly empty of almost all fish over 10 inches including 3 strains of LMB, the sterile Israeli carp that Virginia made me get a permit to stock to eat some of the aquatic weeds but they don’t touch the water clover, Blue Gill and Red Ear Sunfish, 3 out of 4 Koi that I stocked after reading they will eat the 4 leaf clover, they didn’t eat mine but were a great help to the sterile carp eating softer weeds, about 40 Blue and Silver CC plus minnows, frogs, crayfish, pond and rams horn snails and fresh water mussels. There was probably more but that is beside the point. Right now the pond needs to be almost completely restocked with LMB, CC and RES. I do have a small leaky pond that I could get another liner for that could serve as a holding tank to keep a small breeding population of most forage species to aid in restocking when the rehabilitated pond is ready.
It seems to me that a solution might be that while the pond is empty for all practical purposes of fish of any real value, maybe it might make sense to drain the pond and somehow remove the noxious weeds and start over. This also gives me the opportunity to be more selective in restocking, take the opportunity to enlarge the whole pond to 1/3 – ¾ acre, fill in the 8 ft. depth to a more reasonable 4 - 5 feet, remove the above water part of the island to about 18 – 24 inches of water and add structure to the pond bottom to increase fishing enjoyment. After draining the pond and giving it some time to dry out I could hire some heavy equipment to scrape the pond bottom, removing the root mass and changing the structure of the pond bottom as described above. This may mean that the pond is empty for a couple of seasons then a couple of years for the fish population to grow to the point of harvesting.
Ok, there it is, my great idea for fixing my broken pond. I need a lot of constructive criticism and ideas to sort through, think about and choose from. I look forward to getting to know you and hope to learn a whole lot.


Kru Heller
Powhatan, Va.

Kru:

I'm sure the experts will chime in here in a short bit, but I wouldn't fill in the pond any. I believe the shallower pond will be more prone to winterkill.

If you are going to renovate the pond, now is the time to do it while your fish population is at it's lowest.

Hi Kru

Wow, what a story - thank you for sharing it with us all.

You have so many ideas going here - eradicate invasive vegetation, restock the lake, increase it's size, increase it's depth, maybe put a liner in a separate pond to use as a holding tank, control poachers....Whew!

Good news is the Pond Boss family has been here, done that, and you'll get some quality guidance. Here are my thoughts:

1. Can you control poachers? This seems critical if your fishery was impacted so badly...if you can't control them, you are merely restocking for the villans.

2. Herbicides can be used responsibly and won't harm your fishery. There are many seasoned vets on the forum that can guide you as to what works best and application guidelines. I totally understand your reluctance to use chemicals, and appreciate your interest in going organic. There may be organic solutions the forum can suggest. Photos of your pond and vegetation would be helpful in order to understand your situation.

3. Not clear on why you want to eliminate your 8' depths? Fish need 6-8' depth to ride out extreme conditions [drought, heat, cold, etc]. Maybe you can clarify - I might be misunderstanding you.

4. Before you go draining and seining your fish think about vegetation control. Seems if you can control that issue you don't have to start all over.

5. It would be helpful for an analysis of your fishery - species present and estimated populations. With that information, coupled with your goals for the pond [balanced fishery, trophy LMB, trophy panfish, etc.] the forum can provide direction to re-establish your fishery and get it back in shape.

6. Don't dispair! Let's address each issue separately - one step at a time. You may not have as complicated situation as it appears. There are many here that have vast experience to guide you [I'm not one of them unfortunately].

Hi teehjaeh57,
Thanks for the comprehensive response. I know this is a lot but I am thinking along a lot of lines and think it best to lay it all out right away rather than get stuck in one reply that contradicts or confuses another. For the points you raise: First, there are pictures of the whole pond and the 4 leaf clover in the introduction section. I may wind up posting them again in this section for clarity. I'm just having some sleeping challenges tonight and came down to the computer rather than keep others awake.
1. Can I control poachers? Obviously I haven't so far but I it happened suddenly and don't expect them back until I have something to steal again which won't be for a couple of years if I stock now. So I'm interested in ideas. It has been recommended that I quietly wire the woods for lights and attach an infrared camera and lots of floodlights, bells and such. The problem with this is the pond is in the woods about 200 yards from any house and we have a lot of deer and false alarms would get to be a problem. I need to talk with the sheriff and get some ideas from him but don't expect too much help un1ess other ponds have been similarly cleaned out. I also thought about some infrared cameras to at least ID who was in my posted woods. Photos with time stamps might go a long way.
2. I will listen to anybody about herbicides but I am very skeptical. My Father in Law died as a result of a lawn chemical that he was told was safe that spilled in his car and he drove home with it only to die of lung cancer a year later. Later still the cancer was linked to the chemical. I’m even leery of our government telling us something is safe to use. I remember as a kid running through the fog of (I think it was DDT) sprayed to control mosquitoes during the summer. Our parents let us because the government in the 50’s said it was safe. Now it is banned. Until the people that use these chemicals grandchildren live into their 80’s I think my skepticism will remain. How many medications have been approved only to be pulled from the shelves after someone has had some adverse effects. But I will try to remain open.
3. About the 8 ft. depth. I just read this month’s Pond Boss on the value and effect of temperatures and am rethinking that part already. Originally I put it there for the swimming section and since swimming in this pond is so very unpleasant thought shallower water was better for the kinds of fish I had. I may have been wrong and I’m already re-thinking that one. Thanks for your input.
4. “Before you go draining and seining your fish think about vegetation control. Seems if you can control that issue you don't have to start all over.” That is exactly what my joining and posting is about, I want to carefully think and re-think some other opinions and approaches. But this particular weed has got to go, it ruins fishing because it goes from the shore line to about 6 ft. out into the pond. A kid cannot land a fish without getting all tangled up in this stuff. It detracts from the overall appearance of the pond, it grows extremely fast, especially in hot weather and pulling it out always muddies up the water. My pond does not have any current in the hot dry months so the suspended mud messes with water quality for longer than I want it to.
5. I don’t know what an analysis would give me right now. I want the pond mostly for fishing for fun and to put some fresh fish on the table during the spring, supper and fall months. I want a fun fishing hole for kids. Trophy fish? Everybody likes to catch big fish, a trophy would be a bonus but not really a goal, I may keep records of the biggest in the pond. Before the poachers I had about a half dozen LMB around 2-3 lbs. and lots of smaller ones. The CC ranged from about 12 – 18 inches. The RES were still growing and the bluegill had attained a very nice size and very good eating. I thought the pond was developing nicely and looked forward to the next few years when the fish got a little bigger.
Finally, I’m not close to despair, I’m excited about restocking and maybe getting a bigger, better fishing hole. But this 4 leaf clover has got to go. It is very pretty and provides great cover for forage of all kinds, I have found it impossible to contain and winters over nicely to come back strong in the spring.
Thanks again!

Kru, welcome to the posting portion of the forum!

It almost sounds like a lot of suggestions for your pond were meant for aquariums.

My first thought is to lower your pond water level about 4-5 feet this winter to expose the clover. Full winter exposure may kill it off. Plus at this point it doesn't sound like a further fish kill would be a big deal to you (if it happened).

It sounds as if you are liking the idea of increasing the pond size to me. Having increased a ponds size myself, I have no doubt you would be pleased with a larger body of water. Complete draining may not be needed if you excavate and steepen much of the shoreline to a 3-1 slope and use the extra dirt/clay to increase the dam height/width. This could also reduce the overall renovation expense and provide all the benefits you seek in a week instead of 2 seasons.

If you choose to do a complete kill, lowering the pond as much as possible then spreading HYDRATED lime heavily in the water and mud will be a safe and inexpensive method. This would also kill the snails which are hosts for fish parasites. If your water stays a little muddy, you may need to add AGRICULTURAL lime after the renovation as well...a soil test will confirm the need, but since your pond is in the woods, acidic water is virtually guaranteed for you.

If you can save and positively identify the species you want to keep stocked, by all means do so. Just restock in the proper proportions for the size pond you end up with....the fish will fill the void in a single season and drastically cut your wait time to fish again.

I'm no expert with this, just been there and done it. One final thought would be to open up or thin some of the trees around the pond to expose it to more sunshine. This will do more for adding daytime oxygen than almost anything.

I'm also curious about what was "unpleasant" about swimming in your pond.

Hi Rainman,
Thanks for responding.

“lower your pond water level about 4-5 feet this winter to expose the clover. Full winter exposure may kill it off.”
I’ve already tried that and it does not work, it actually made the clover cover a larger area because it went to a deeper level. I left the pond at a 4’ lower than maximum for over a year thinking maybe I could drown it by raising it the next year and that didn’t work either.

“If your water stays a little muddy, you may need to add AGRICULTURAL lime after the renovation as well...a soil test will confirm the need, but since your pond is in the woods, acidic water is virtually guaranteed for you.”
That is something I didn’t know and will look into it further. Thanks!

“”Just restock in the proper proportions for the size pond you end up with....”
Restocking is something I will be going over and over again with the forum and I do have some ideas that may be unorthodox or even very poorly advised and unworkable but all that is going to wait until I have the primary objective of eliminating this water clover problem. Before I joined the forum I believe I read your web site on blue tilapia and want to learn more about the seasonal stocking of that species to help keep weed growth down but I don’t think they will eat the clover any more than any other fish species. But if somebody knows they do please prove it to me and I can save a lot of time and effort. Something must eat this water fern that comes from Australia.

“open up or thin some of the trees around the pond to expose it to more sunshine.”
I’ve been slowly working on this since the beginning and it is actually more open than the photo makes it look. But I need to be careful, one thing I really like is the privacy of the pond site and my land is a fairly narrow but long strip so I need to clear carefully to maintain that privacy.

Thanks again.

Kru's pond...



Marisela Water Clover that Kru has discussed...


Welcome to Pond Boss Kru! (Somehow I missed you're original post).

You came to the right place, with input from the experts here you'll get your pond whipped into shape.

Thanks for joining up and posting.

I've never heard of that stuff.

I think Rex may have a good idea about the lime.

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all your replies and recommendations and special thanks to jeffhasapond for moving my pictures over from the introduction section.

First, I forgot to address Rainman’s question about what was unpleasant about swimming. First my wife didn’t like the squishy bottom on our first swims so I built the floating dock but didn’t know enough about the mechanics of floating docks and it is hard to get on and off. A ladder and putting more water in the barrels would fix that but by then, still during the first summer we had the pond, the weeds had grown to the point that when we brushed against them we got dirty deposits all over our legs and anything else that touched the weeds. This was before the overgrowth of the water clover and before I discovered the Israeli Carp and Koi could do a pretty good job of controlling the softer weeds that I put in there to “put oxygen in the water.” Any weeds in the swimming area the fish didn’t eat could be easily removed with a rake on a rope. When the pond was first dug I bought a dump truck load of sand and had it spread in the area designated for swimming. What this did was turn the bottom of the swimming area into quicksand that would bury us thigh deep in seconds and did nothing positive for the swimming experience.
Rainman also suggested two kinds of lime and I didn’t respond adequately earlier. When I first had the pond dug and before the water was in it I spread some special kind of lime all over the bottom of the pond. I don’t know if it was this hydrated lime or what but I recall our local farm supply had to order it special for me. I wonder if someone could enlighten me about the different limes for ponds? Am I reading between the lines correctly that enough lime would reduce or eliminate the “wet dust” that kicks up every time the bottom is disturbed? If I have done a good job of raking all the weeds out of an area of the pond and a fairly large fish for what ever reason swims quickly through that area I can see the dusty trail in the water behind them. Left alone the pond will have fairly clear water but left alone the weeds are thick everywhere except for the one summer when the carp and koi were large enough and their numbers were high enough to do a fairly good job of controlling the softer kinds of weeds. Raking weeds out always makes huge clouds of silt that takes over 34 hours to completely settle and longer than that before the water completely clears to it’s normal state.
So far I haven’t found anything that eats the water clover except for the occasional March that a pair of geese uses the island to raise a clutch. Unfortunately they never stick around long enough to do any good. There is a 7 acre pond about a half mile through the woods from our pond. Whenever a pair of geese has a nest on our island they hatch out the babies but only stay for a day or two before leaving for the larger pond where there are other geese. I think they eat it then because there is little else growing in March. This water clover is the one problem that I don’t have an acceptable solution for. I don’t really want to drain the pond but I think I have to get rid of this plant before it spreads to other ponds downstream from me. As far as I can tell I’m the only person with a pond in this area that has this weed. I feel the weight of responsible stewardship to get rid of this weed but I am pretty strongly against using toxic chemistry to do it. Draining the pond, letting it dry out enough to get a bobcat safely in and out and digging up the root mat is the only thing that I can think of to get rid of it. I haven’t tried it but I don’t think draining the pond and having a controlled burn would do it either. It forms a firm thick mat beneath where ever it grows. I’m hoping that someone has another solution, like something that eats it. But I’m not optimistic that will happen so my next goal here is to get counsel on how to dig this stuff up and ensure I got it all. It completely surrounds my pond and island and is only absent in areas where I mechanically and with great difficulty remove it with shovels, rakes and sweat. Unless I had an army to remove it in one day manually it would re-grow and fill in the first area before I got to the last area.

Kru:

I know that you said you didn't want to go the chemical route, but I think that will be the best way.

What will you do if after the renovation, it pops back up because of some plants that were missed?

Invasive species are hard to control, but the smaller the area of problem weeds, the easier it is to control.

As for the silt/sediments stirred up while swimming, unless you have a very sandy bottom, or a pea gravel bottom, you will always have that problem.

Again, there are chemicals that can be used to keep the swimming area weed free, and not affect other areas of the pond.

Just like organic farming, going the organic route is a trade-off. You have to trade-off intensive labor efforts to take the place of chemicals, as you are finding out. If the plant will re-grow from any roots that are left, then you can either remove all the soil that is affected, or go with a systemic herbicide. I don't know if you have any other options.

I wouldn't encourage the waterfowl, they bring parasites to the pond in their poop. Do a google search on "swimmers itch".

Kru, given the relative young age of your pond, the "silt" came in one of two forms. Either you had a large amount of eroision while it filled or (most likely) the bottom was never properly compacted.

Well compacted clay will have a spongy feel but still be pretty solid. One other thing to remember is that a pond that produces decent fish will never be like a swimming pool....the two are mutually incompatible.

Aeration will control muck/silt buildup from the tons of dead leaves you are bound to accumulate in a "woods" pond.

The two Limes I mentioned were Hydrated and Ag limes. Ag lime is simply crushed Dolomitic Limestone and the PH will very slowly max at 8.2 so it can never really be over-applied or harmful...in a pond where leaves enter it, or with a generally acidic soil, the Ag lime will reduce the daily PH swings and thus reduce stress on fish for several years on average.

HYDRATED lime, aka Quick or Slaked lime, is an instant acting powderes lime. It is used in many fish farms to sterilize drained ponds. It kills fish/plants and nearly anything else by raising the PH VERY rapidly to 12+. Hydrated lime is also very short lived in action.

The way AG lime can help clear your water a bit faster is by adding extra positively charged Ions to your water. The negatively charged silt particles are attracted to these Ions and clump together instead of repelling each other and remaining in suspension. The clumps get heavy faster and fall back to the bottom faster.

Hi Rainman and Esshup,
Thanks for your candid replies. I need a back and forth dialog like this to help me get to the best possible decision. This is why I joined the forum, if this were easy for me I could just look it up and go ahead. Esshup has shot right to the heart of my dilemma. What will I do if I don’t get all the weeds with the heavy equipment and considering the persistent, invasive nature of this fern I think that is likely to happen. I also concur that a chemical is far and away the easiest way to deal with this kind of situation. The difficulty I have with a non natural solution is that I don’t trust the chemical companies and the government when they tell me these treatments are safe. I’m in my early 60’s. I cannot possibly tell you how many times I have seen chemical/pharmaceutical/agri-business companies push their products to make money when in some cases they clearly knew their product was harmful. In some cases our governmental agencies have even gotten behind the use of these products. I’m not saying or implying that our government deliberately lied to us. Sometimes a product turned out after more information came in, to be harmful. We have all seen examples of medications recalled after directly or indirectly causing death or other serious unintended consequences and unexpected side effects. I don’t know enough about the chemicals and don’t believe that there is enough information available for me to trust the health of my children and others to use this approach. I plan to continue eating out of this pond. It would be nice if I could trust this solution but I have already lost my Father in law and close friends have lost pets to “safe” chemicals properly applied in good faith and with the confidence of government agencies backing their decisions to their lawns. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only person on this forum to decide not to use chemicals. It will likely be more work and take a longer time but I believe it is possible. To me the alternative is to give up and accept the weed or give up the pond.

‘What will you do if after the renovation, it pops back up because of some plants that were missed?”
The only answer I have so far is; as Esshup states “intensive efforts” and dig up each sprout for probably about a year until eventually it is finally all gone. I’m hoping someone here knows what eats this stuff. I know I don’t want constant waterfowl in my pond and not only to avoid swimmers itch. A woods pond is already nutrient rich, any waterfowl only adds more nutrition for algae and other just as noxious stuff. Last Spring I bought some Muscovy ducklings that I will soon release in the pond and hopefully they will eat the weed and having been raised here remain here. If they can remove the weed when it is gone I can remove them. This may not work either, it won’t take long to learn. I don’t really want to release the ducks in the pond, I don’t want to dig up the pond for probably over a year but this weed has got to go. I’m about at my wits end.

Rainman wrote: “(most likely) the bottom was never properly compacted.”
When I had the pond dug I hired people that had constructed many ponds in the area but that doesn’t mean they knew about proper compaction. They spent a great deal of time just driving their bull dozers over the bottom and each layer of the dam as they built it up but they never brought in any of those big roller machines. What constitutes proper compaction? If I do end up doing a major reconstruction of this pond (which to me seems likely considering my views above) it may be something that I should consider.

Rainman also wrote: The two Limes I mentioned were Hydrated and Ag limes.”
Now here might be an idea! Would the hydrated lime kill the water clover? I don’t think I have an objection to lime, I’ll do more research on that. Here is the new idea: I can lower the level of the pond, collect any living things I want to use to jump start the pond after I’m sure the Water Clover is killed and put them in my holding pond. Next, rather than dig up the roots all the way around the pond, apply the lime in (what concentration?) to kill the water clover and other plants. Over the course of the next year spot treat any places the clover pops up with another application of H. lime. Finally after I’m sure the plant is completely gone, refill the pond and begin stocking with forage fish out of the holding pond. Finally fill and restock the pond properly.
First do you think this would work? Next how do I apply this hydrated lime? Any safety precautions? Does anybody see any holes or problems with this approach?

Kru, I don't know if the hydrated lime would effect the clover or not. Hydrated lime is often used to kill fish from the rapid, extremely high PH shock it induces. It can also be very caustic to plants, but needs water to be effective. Of course if you have a full pool to cover the clover it will take a LOT more lime. And who knows if it would even kill the plant???

Sheepsfoot compactors and rollers are used for true compaction. Dozer tracks that are flat are BY DESIGN intended to spread the weight of the machine over a larger footprint to reduce compaction. They can be adequate, but fall well short of the compaction a sheepsfoot will produce. Think of dozer compaction as asphalt and compaction from a sheepsfoot as concrete. Both are usable as a road, but which is easier to poke holes in?

Just to give some idea of how little compaction a dozer would give, here's my story (although it doesn't contain a dozer).

When renovating my pond, we had a pretty good sized excavator.
Komatsu PC200LC


Approx. 21' dig depth, it weighs roughly 48,000 lbs. It tracked across a soft spot, and I followed on foot, walking in the tracks that it left. It sunk in about 3", and I sunk in up to my knees. I looked up the specs and it only puts approximately 5# per square inch of pressure on the ground. Far less than I do.

That's why dozers aren't good for compaction - they aren't designed to put a lot of pressure on the ground.

Good morning,
OK, Pondman and Esshup, looks like we are the only ones home on this topic. I have read enough of both of your posts to respect your opinions. So a sincere thank you first for hanging in there and being patient with my questions. Either way I go with this is going to be a long and challenging process.
My pond was not compacted with the kind of equipment both of you describe. So IF I have to go the route of draining and rebuilding with heavy equipment I will have an opportunity to also compact the bottom properly.
Rainman, if I understand you correctly I will have to figure out how to raise the level of the pond several inches above full then add a fairly large amount of H. lime to the water for the lime to have a possibility of working. I’m thinking that this is so because the WC is a marginal plant that grows along the edge of the pond and the roots need to be completely covered with the H.lime & water to kill the roots that grow upward into the bank of the pond. I think this would be possible to do because of the way my drain pipe is constructed. I have the kind of drain pipe that drains off the bottom and connects to the standpipe with an inverted Y pipe close to the top of the vertical standpipe. The full water level of the pond is the crotch of the Y. So if I can get a pipe with an outside diameter very close to the size if the inside diameter of my standpipe I could make it long enough to slide inside the standpipe low enough to block the input from the bottom of the Y that drains the pond. That way the top of the standpipe would be the high water mark and that is a about an inch short of the level of the overflow spillway. That would raise full water mark to the point that part of the spillway is filled and the entire edge of the pond is covered.
Before doing that I think I might be wise to dig up a core of the WC and “plant” it in a jar and cover the roots with a H.lime solution and see if it kills the plant. I also think I should check with the local extension agent because with the pond that full of a toxic lime solution a rainstorm would surely cause a runoff. I wouldn’t want to cause damage downstream. I could do it with an eye on the forecast to plan doing it for a week without any rain in the forecast.
Either way I do this is going to be a long and involved project. If I can do it without heavy equipment it will cost a lot less and I think this approach will offer a greater chance of success on the first attempt.

Kru, I think doing that sort of test with the plant is a very good idea. Just be very precise in the measurements of lime to water in the test. A slight bit off in the test might mean a big difference in the pond water when it comes time to do the whole pond if it works.

Kru, you bring up an excellent concern to water discharge of H limed water. The PH shock would kill just about any aquatic animal until the water was heavily diluted.

I was thinking if you wanted to kill just remaining fish and the pond were mostly drained. If you wanted to try to kill the clover by burning it with lime, I would still loower the pond considerably then heavily dusting the clover with H lime and then watering it down sparingly to prevent runoff.

I know and understand your chemical concerns, but as esshup alluded to, it may be the best choice here. Used correctly, Reward, Sonar, Whitecap and Round-up have proven to be very safe and effective for years. Draining your pond and spraying with RoundUp might be an excellent, low cost solution....buy a small bottle and give a light spray on some clover that is on dry ground and see if it dies in a few days. IIRC, Round up breaks down quickly after application.

Hi Rainman and Esshup,
Thanks again for your replies, I really appreciate your counsel. I have some homework to do with the glass jar experiment and before I do that I’m also going to talk with the county extension agent. I played phone tag all day today with his office assistant and should hear from him tomorrow and will go over what we have discussed here and get his input and make sure I’m not treading on any toes or risking anyone else’s pond. As obnoxious as this weed is I think he will want to help me before is spreads to someone else’s pond on some bird’s foot or something. I should also get my truck back from the shop tomorrow afternoon and my wife is having some sinus surgery in the morning, so I don’t think I will get much done on the pond tomorrow. But today I raked out and measured the little pond to order a liner so I can get it ready to house the fish, plants, some of the fresh water mussels and whatever else I want to keep some of to give the pond a jump start once I refill it again. I have a couple of other irons in the fire that will need some attention this week so it may be a few days before I’m back here with enough to make up a worthwhile post. To make it easier for you to find I think I will put “Marisela Water Clover” in the title and put the next post in the Aquatic Vegetation/Controlling unwanted plants section, I think that is more appropriate to be in that section. So, it’s time for me to get to work and I’ll be back in a few days when I know more. Thanks again for your help, I think with your help I now have a plan of action to get rid of this weed. I hope the extension agent approves and I’m kind of looking forward to stocking again. I have some ideas about some things I want to do differently and want to discuss them with this group to be sure they are as good as I think they are. But first things first - the clover has got to go.

Kru:

Here's prayers that your wifes surgery goes smoothly tomorrow. It'll be interesting to see what the extension agent says. I think you are on the right track getting the critters transferred to the lined pond. Just be doubly sure that you don't transfer any clover to the pond along with the critters.

I'll be looking for the update when you start it. Good luck!