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#216317 05/10/10 08:33 PM
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I am considering putting a small number of koi in my 1.3 acre pond. Since my visibility gets up to 10+ feet, i think it would be fun to have a few high visibility pets. At the moment my pond has about 330 RBT in the 13-15" range. If the trout don't make it through the summer, I plan to try HSB in this pond next. The pond was finished last fall and has no other fish except some minnows that already existed in the spring that fuels the pond.

My question is this: how likely is it that the trout or HSB will basically eliminate the koi yoy? My hope is I can stock larger koi and not have any meaningful survival of the offspring. Do you think it would matter if there were HSB or RBT as the primary occupant?

What do you think?


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TheMoMule #216319 05/10/10 09:02 PM
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Several things will contribute to recruitment of koi/carp. I may not deal with all of them.
1. Amount of good spawning habitat. The better the type and more quantity of shallow shoreline or shallow structure for egg attachment the more eggs will hatch. Shallow grassy, weedy areas prime spawning habitat. Just about any firm underwater surface will hold carp eggs.
2. Amount of cover for fry fingerlings. This is pretty self explanatory.
3. Food for carp fry is normally not a limiting factor in a pond like yours. Food source should be ample for good carp fry survival. Fry are planktivorus.
4. Your pond has very few predators present of hatched carp fry until they are bigger than 1+". Survival to 1"+ should be very good.
5. HSB and IMO trout tend to be more open water predators. I welcome other opinions on preferred habitat of RBT or HSB. Small carp (1"-5") will be bottom oriented due to feeding habits. YOur predators and prey do not have behavior habits that cause a high amount of interaction thus IMO this will lead to high survival rates of fingerling carp.
6. Adult mature koi are sexually dimorphic (adult males and females with external recognizable features). A single sex koi population is possible and suggested.


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Bill Cody #216330 05/10/10 10:16 PM
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Thanks Bill. I had considered a single sex option, but was deterred when learned that breeders charge up to $100 to sex a single fish. From your comments, I seem to hear that sexing of fully mature carp is reasonably doable. Given the relatively low recruitment of carp in more common mixed ponds, I thought predation might be effective.

Now, I'm thinking I should grow them out, sex them, and then select individuals for the pond. I have a small RAC system that might work for this.


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TheMoMule #216348 05/11/10 02:30 AM
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I am will Bill... I would highly recommend you stick with single sex koi. If you had a healthy LMB population in your pond, I would be less concerned. Plus your pond is just so unique, I'd hate to see a bunch of koi making a mess of it!

CJBS2003 #216383 05/11/10 08:27 AM
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If the RBT are surviving in the pond long enough for you, and you want some color swimming around in the pond, have you looked into the golden color morph of the rainbow?






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esshup #216418 05/11/10 11:32 AM
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I would not mix koi with trout ever. First those koi are going to be trout food no matter where you put them if they are not big enough. The trout will get them in the shallows, wherever they go. Then, when the koi do survive, they will eventually take over pond, make clear water very turbid. Trout just can't handle turbid water long term. I'd go with the gold bows if I wanted color. Koi go in koi ponds, trout go in trout ponds. There is not a koi/trout pond. Almost can't be long term, they are not compatible.

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Would the Koi even spawn in the trout pond if the water was kept cold enough for the trout? It'd be a moot point if the water warmed up over 70° tho.


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esshup #216442 05/11/10 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: esshup
Would the Koi even spawn in the trout pond if the water was kept cold enough for the trout? It'd be a moot point if the water warmed up over 70° tho.


Koi will spawn with temps in the high 60's.


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Pottsy #216453 05/11/10 04:16 PM
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Carp were spawning like crazy this past week at Raystown Lake where the water temp was between 64-68 in the shallows.

CJBS2003 #216504 05/11/10 08:18 PM
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Thanks for the comments. From what I have read, the koi would spawn. If I could get golden, tiger or brook trout, I would go that route, but I have not been able to find a source. I really have a hard time imagining a small number of any fish dramatically affecting my visibility; the entire issue is whether recruitment can be prevented.


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CJBS2003 #216505 05/11/10 08:21 PM
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All species of fish have a certain range of temps they thrive at. And die at. Or practically go dormant. When trout are thriving, carp are dormant, when carp are thriving, trout are dying.

Here is a simple question for the entire forum, in all of thier years observing ponds, has anyone ever seen a successful trout/koi pond? Ever?

What is the optimum temp for a trout pond?

What is the optimum temp for a koi carp pond?

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My reference listed optimum koi temps as 65-75. Acceptable koi temps range from about 35-85. RBT need to remain below 70. They prefer about 60. My pond will be in the 60s much of the summer. I am still waiting to see what temperatures max out at in late summer.


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TheMoMule #216512 05/11/10 08:38 PM
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Koi need to be in water above 74 F for thier immune systems to actually work properly. Medicines and treatments for any problems do not work at 65 F. Digestion completely stops at 45-50 F. If they eat and have food in thier digestive system it will rot and they will die. Koi thrive in water temps above 75 F.

Trout thrive in cold water. The colder the better, down to 40 F. When they are thriving, koi cannot do anything but lay there dormant. When Koi Carp are thriving, Trout are floating belly up, dead. This is not a it depends subject.

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We have tons of carp here in the Great Sacandaga Lake and I see them spawning in the shallows of an inlet near my house, If the difference between koi and Carp is nil then there seems like there would be a good chance they would survive in a cool water pond but maybe not spawn.
If Brkt will survive in your pond they would be less likely to decimate small Koi but Brnt and especially tigers would murder your Koi. Then as mentioned would Koi roil up the pond to the detriment of the trout.



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MoMule, If your just looking to add a few Koi for fun I would say go for it, if their large enough the trout won't bother them and a few shouldn't affect the pond.
If you go with single sex that would eliminate problems down the road, and half the fun of having a pond is experimenting.

This place ships tiger trout, maybe if you had a cage to raise the fingerlings might be worth checking into.
http://www.coldspringstroutfarm.com/pond_stocking.htm

Last edited by adirondack pond; 05/12/10 08:03 AM.


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Let me know the water temp you decide on for both species to remain healthy.

Next up, ice fishing for tilipia.

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Last edited by adirondack pond; 05/12/10 11:09 AM.


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I doubt koi would "thrive" in a trout pond... However, koi/carp are hardy little buggers and I think the koi would manage maintain. Their growth rates would be greatly reduced though and perhaps some increased risk of disease. The one trout stream I fish supports both wild naturally reproducing populations of brown and rainbow trout. I regularly see and occasionally catch carp in this stream. A stream that stays cool enough to support trout year round but also supports carp and some darn big ones at that...

CJBS2003 #216665 05/12/10 06:23 PM
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I may not succeed, but I don't see any real problem giving the single-sex option a try. I think my boys will love them. I may be surprised, but I have seen carp survive in much harsher consitions than this pond would seem to pose. I think I will grow them out in my RAC until they can be sexed. Then, all of one sex will go to the trout pond. Honestly, I'm much more confident about the koi than the trout.


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TheMoMule #216672 05/12/10 07:05 PM
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I'd go with all males if possible... That way if you goof, and throw in a female their reproductive ability is limited.

CJBS2003 #216723 05/12/10 09:30 PM
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Good idea on the males. Thanks for the constructive help.


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Originally Posted By: The Pond Frog
Koi need to be in water above 74 F for thier immune systems to actually work properly. Medicines and treatments for any problems do not work at 65 F. Digestion completely stops at 45-50 F. If they eat and have food in thier digestive system it will rot and they will die. Koi thrive in water temps above 75 F.

Trout thrive in cold water. The colder the better, down to 40 F. When they are thriving, koi cannot do anything but lay there dormant. When Koi Carp are thriving, Trout are floating belly up, dead. This is not a it depends subject.


What medicines or other treatments would you expect to be delivering to KOI that are in a large trout pond? I'd expect that would never be an issue?
You'd have a bigger problem of the turbidity of KOI waters affecting the trout negatively then you would with temperatures as long as you stay in a safe range for the type of trout. Koi can survive an incredible temperature range so the odds of killing them off with temp variations that trout would survive would be limited at best.

I dunno TPF but I'd say everything is an 'it depends subject'. wink If the OP just wants both species to survive and can provide a middling temp with enough D.O. then it is entirely doable. Optimum for both, not likely, but that is the case in almost all bodies of water/species combos. Of course the thermocline in a pond will in theory allow the fish to sit at their most desired available temp.


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Pottsy #216766 05/13/10 07:52 AM
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I have koi & trout (among other fish) in my pond and don't seem to have a problem with it. I've had more problems with the bluegill in my pond but I think that was from too many mature bluegill and not enough spawning area and it stressed them. The koi and trout both seem happy, grow well, and feed together during feeding time.

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Great read AP. Guy brings up some interesting points. Out here we have nothing like that as far as Winter temps yet almost all of th edie offs and crashes are in the Winter. And he hits the nail on the head with lack of O2. A lot of the novice koi owners think you only need a Spring cleaning. More important is a preWinter cleaning. All that vegetative matter just sucks up or removes the O2. How many posts do we see here on this forum about Northerners having die off in the Winter with any species?

Plus with Koi, he says you have to due several things, limit the desirable population, cull all diseased fish. Provide non stop O2/aeration even before the pond ices over. This is just not feasible in a large trout/koi pond.

As far as koi diseases, and why they kill them off in the Winter. The immune systems just start shutting down below 70. Digestion stops at 50. They are dormant, or clinging on to life, waiting it out. If they are weak, diseased, parasites, over overpopulated they just don't make it through the Winter. I don't have the space to list all of the diseases and parasites these fish can get or have. I think fungus is the number one killer though. And again, you just can't treat that in cold water, the medicines won't work. There are even procedures on how to raise water temps to treat koi with medicines.

There is no happy medium for these two species to coexist. There is no water temp for both of them to thrive. Koi can withstand very cold water temps, but only for thier Winter cycle. As soon as you heat them up to get them fat and happy your trout are dead.

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Originally Posted By: 2trackin
I have koi & trout (among other fish) in my pond and don't seem to have a problem with it. I've had more problems with the bluegill in my pond but I think that was from too many mature bluegill and not enough spawning area and it stressed them. The koi and trout both seem happy, grow well, and feed together during feeding time.


Would be nice to see some photos of this. What are your seasonal water temps? And I have seen bg happily coexist with both trout and koi. Especially trout. Even gsf. We have a winery that has a trout/bg pond they hand feed all season long and then lets kids fish for the trout in the Spring. I think it is called Indian Rock. Usually the biggest is around 10 lbs, but this year it was only 9. There are no koi in there, and never will be. But plenty of trout and bg. Too many mature bluegill and not enough spawning areas so they got stressed? You have many firsts my freind, never heard of anything like that either.

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