Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain crayfish

Howdy folks, I have put in an order for the first stocking of my new 3 1/2 ac pond from a source from a sugestion on another posting (keystone hatcheries)(I forget who that was, thanks for the heads up). We are putting in 500 bluegill 3-5", 250 largemouth 3-5", 250 channel cats 4-6" and 100 lbs of fathead minnows this spring. This fall we will add 250 smallmouth 3-5" and 300 walleye 5-7".

Should I try to have a crayfish population for forage? We have farm ditches all around us and it would be no trouble to trap and relocate them.

Thanks in advance, and I was so pleased to see the article in the magazine about the smallies. can there be anthing more fun than a big smallie on 4lb line....I think not

Any opinions on the stocking would be interesting as well.

Dean,

I've got access to LOTS of "mudbugs" down here...from experience it's really not worthwile to try and "feed" your LMB with crawfish...the "bugs" in my pond were pretty well eradicated due to predation...however, from time to time I'll still put some in for fun, fun to watch the LMB feeding frenzy!...Your time may be better spent in maintaining a feed program via pelletized food and automatic feeder...I feel you're on the right track for forage using the BG...feed them and you'll indirectly feed the entire food chain...fertilizer can be a useful tool utilized correctly as well...some of the better educated/more experienced folks on this site can fill you in on fertilizer...don't know which thread it is on, however, there is a way to figure out how much feed will effect change vs. how much live forage it takes to effect the same change in relative body weights of predator fish...maybe one of the guy (Greg Grimes?) can better advise...

Torchy

I will disagree if you can get crayfish for free go for it. Either they will develop a substanable population or not. They should have a good chance in a new pond. I put about 10 pounds in my pond each spring and I am paying $3.00 a pound.

Dean O,

I believe I read that LMB get bigger on a crayfish diet than on bluegills. I say if you can get them to take hold in your pond, then do it. If anything, just for something else for LMB to eat in addition to bluegills. I think the SMB prefer crayfish for the diet.

If you are able, I'd make as many rock beds as you can for the crayfish to take hold.

I believe one risk (for a certain type of crayfish) is that they can burrow holes into your damm, if you're pond is made with a damn.

I think there's also some type of crayfish that needs a certain water hardness (I think) to molt, thus leading to a regenerating population.

I've got existing crayfish in my pond, and there's nothing like catching a big bass that has a gullet and gut full of crayfish.

I'm also adding several thousand to my pond this spring.

Dean O You may want to consider putting in more than 500 bluegill into your pond if you're going to put all of those predators in within the first year. It may help in the long run. Although the fatheads will definetly jump start your pond the minnows alone may not be enough to support your predators over time . 5-7 walleye, smallies and largemouth will put a pretty good dent into the population. If you add more bluegill now you will have more bluegill spawning that will give you more 3-4" bluegill w/in the first 1-1.5yrs which will be a better meal for your predators than the 2-3" fatheads will (less energy wasted chasing smaller meals). Also consider enhancing the fathead spawning with pallets and such. There is a post somewhere within pondboss with some great ideas. Good luck.

I was wondering if you noticed that you are going to add 800 predators that are all bigger than your 500 BG, and thats not counting the 250 catfish. So your going to put 1050 predators in a 3.5 acre pond with 500 3"-5" bluegill. Thats about 300 predators per acre. I am no expert but it sounds like to much.

Also I would like to make a suggetion about the order. Add your BG, minnows and crayfish this spring, add the SMB and walleye this fall and the LMB next summer, after the spawn.

Infact, if you prefer SMB to LMB I would not stock LMB unless the BG stunt, and you cann't control them any other way. LMB will out compete SMB in a small pond, SMB evolved for rivers and big reseviors, LMB thrive in weedy ponds. The LMB have a huge advantage, they will grow faster and compete with smaller SMB for nesting sites Both species spawn on shallow gravel/ sand and at the same time, the SMB start just a few degrees cooler. Female LMB lay about 13,000 eggs per pound of body weight, SMB lay about 8,000 eggs per pound. LMB will eventualy eliminate your SMB.

The walleyes are not going to grow very well on BG. Walleyes and SMB will probably feed more on crayfish than BG, in short you need crayfish in your pond. But not just any crayfish, there are over 400 species of crayfish in NA, and they specialize in diffrent enviroments. The crayfish that live in the ditches are not the same crayfish that live in your local lakes. The ditch crayfish are not evolved to deal with deep water/ rocks/ and fish, they specialize in mud, weeds and no fish. If you want to estabish crayfish with your bass, trap crayfish from your local lakes, lakes with lots of bass.

Good luck, I am hoping to have a BG/ SMB pond in the next couple years (the hole is about half dug now, only 300,000 more yards of gravel to go!). I have heard mixed stories about BG/ SMB, but I think it can be done. Add as much rock as you can get your hands on, keep the BG in check, establish crayfish ,and try not to install too much competion. Also rember that the number of SMB that acctualy spawn is surprisingly few, try not to remove any large fish, you need to maximize thier recruitment.

Dean, check with Mike at Keystone, I think they also do pond craws! not sure about regs on bringing them to you though.
Robert B

As for the stocking numbers...I've let my guy at the hatchery help work them out. The larger BG to spawn this year and the fatheads to feed the LM untill the spawn. I have been putting in structure for months now and it is pretty developed. Tire piles, pallet rafts, block and brick piles, felled trees laying of the banks, bails of farm fencing.

Being just a stones through from the big lake (Michigan) creating rip-rap is something of an art form...started with 2' 2' 6' cement blocks from my ready mix plant dumped those in, then came the field stone from our farm, two dump trucks worth. then one dump of pea gravel on that. this is an area against one bank 200' long and from 15' deep up to 3'. I would think that the crayfish should love this area along with the SMB. thanks for the tips on the differant kinds of crayfish...don't know if I can remove them from lake Michigan or not.

I echo TwY33's thoughs. The standard stocking rate advised by fisheries biologists all over is (per acre) 1000 BG and 50-100 predators. With that many predators and less than 150 BG per acre, I'd be suprised if your bass or walleye grow much at all. One of the most common problems people have with thier ponds is too many mouths to feed and not enugh forage to go around.
As a general rule of thumb, be wary of one pays the bills by convincing you to buy fish. The guy to listen to is the guy who makes his living by helping people make the most of their ponds.
-Scott

If you are using the 100lbs of fatheads to feed your predators untill the BG spawn, then why don't you wait to add the predators untill after the BG spawn? The standard opporating procedure is to stock forage in the spring and the predators the following fall or spring. Your not going to gain anything by feeding your 1050 predators 100lbs of fatheads, your planning on feeding your predators about 1.5 ounces of minnows each. What is the point? Save the money and stock your predators after the BG spawn.

Jbrockey has a great point about the ratio between BG and predators. If the standard ratio is 1000 BG and 100 predators per acre, then you are talking about a 10:1 ratio. Your hatchery has you stocking 142 Bg and 300 predators per acre, that is a ratio of .473 Bg to each predator. How is 1 BG going to produce enough forage for 2 predators?
I would get a second opinion on the stocking rates. This stocking plan sounds impossible, no amount of cover, feeding, crayfish, or fertalizing is going to make 1 BG feed 2 bass.

okay I get it...stock all the "eaters" in the fall, will do. I thought I had done enough to make sure I had the right guy to help me with the stocking...I am revisiting that . Thanks again for all the help.

Ty: Have you stocked your lake yet? I've seen lots of gravel pits that were stocked and used for fishing while they were still active.

Up untill know they have pumped the pit dry when they were digging. They will be digging this summer and possibly next summer and I assume pumping again. This last summer they made significant progress down, past the water table, but this summer I believe they will be expanding the pit's area as well.

Dean, if you stock the forage this fall stock your SMB, walleye, and catfish the following fall or early spring. I personaly would wait on the LMB for another year, if I added them at all. But which fish to add is a personal decsicion based on your pond managment goals, and only you are qualified to answer that.
Have you looked into increasing the number of BG to be stocked? and decreasing the number of predators? Try getting a second opionion from some of the proffesionals on this site, it would be a good way to check if your hatchery is working in your best interests.

Do you have the acerage for a second pond? You may want to consider having a BG/SMB/Walleye pond and a BG/LMB/Catfish pond. These would be easier to manage and more likely to produce decent sized fish. Or have you thought of BG/SMB/Walleye/ catfish? I'm no expert but maybe 3,500 BG, 100 SMB, 100 walleye, and 75 catfish. That adds upto about 80 predators and 1000 BG for each acre, which fits nicely with the standard formula Jbrockey posted. SMB and walleye will both prey on the smaller bluegill.

A 16" smb is supposed to eat about 4" BG, and a 20" smb should eat 5" BG. If you have enough SMB and walleye to thin the 3"-5" BG you should be able to grow alot of big bluegill. If after a few years you note that SMB number remain low, the walleye are skinny, and the BG are stunted you can easily add 150 3"-5" LMB to help eat your BG. Rember it is easier to add fish than it is to take them out.