Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Recommendations in SE Michigan

Bad News, Derek. You have to go fishing.

I think I have a line on a fish farm (or two???) in Northern Ohio. I will see if I can locate that info this weekend in case it might do you some good.

Bill Cody knows the fish suppliers in the North end of our state, too.

That would be great! If there happens to be anything in the toledo area, that's actually a fairly reasonable drive for me.

I think Imlay City (MI) is around 2.5 hours each way, and they are the only place I found with SMB. I was happy with the fish I got there, but like I said, size choices are limited.

I did look up Laggis, but it is further away.

I was hoping to pick up fish this weekend, but all they have so far are the YP. I guess I can go fishing and sink my structure instead.

HI Derek,

This a list of all the registered farms in Michigan.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mda/mda_aquaculture_192478_7.pdf

MDA Link.

http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-1569_16979-52067--,00.html

Phil

Derek:

Basically no help, I'm afraid. I found one place that lists YP, no SMB, which is probably farther away than you want. And Stoney Creek , who advertise in PBMag and who I have purchased equipment off of, also list YP, no SMB. They are somewhere in MI.

Still, Derek should call those places. I have not found many of the fish suppliers websites to be accurate assuming that is what you mean by saying if they "list" a fish.

If they don't have something, they should be able to point you somewhere.

Derek,
You are discovering what I have known for quite awhile. It is a whole lot easier to plan & develop a stocking plan than it is to find the fish especially if your plans are for stocking something other than the normal LMB, BG, HBG. I have driven 3.5hrs one way to get a few SMB and YP. The difficulty of locating and obtaining some species makes your fishery that much more unique and valuable.

Imlay City fish farm is probably your best choice. Ridgeview Fin Farm Ridgeville Corners OH (finfarm.com) is about 1 hr south of Adrian and MI line. Laggis is worth the drive and has very good quality fish and several species are pellet trained.

Golden shiners are hard to locate in MI and OH. Shiners are not as hardy and not as popular as FHM thus only very few hatcheries carry them. If you want g.shiners you may have to go back to Jones. Maybe meet the truck (cell phone tag) when they are on a northern OH or southern MI delivery. If you want a really hard fish to locate stock some bluntnose minnows which do very well with y.perch and SMB if the pond has some underwater weeds for cover. My initial stock came from local waters.

Best way to check on the status of your fish is as suggested - fish with some live bait, worms or minnows from your pond. It should only take catching 4-6 fish to get an idea of what growth has been like this summer.

Derek,

May I offer a suggestion... If you find a supplier that has the type of fish you want, ask if they have a scheduled delivery coming anywhere near you in the future. I did that a few years ago when I got 200 8"-10" Walleye from Stoney Creek. They had a delivery scheduled 2 weeks away to a subdivision lake not too far from me. I did not have to pay any delivery charge and met the truck about 15 minutes from my place.

Good luck in your quest.

Dan

Thanks for all the help folks!!!

Stoney Creek doesn't carry SMB, but I do have their catalog, and they have been mentioned as being reputable. I may check out Laggis & Ridgeview as well. Adrian is only about 35-40min from me on the backroads, so that might actually be closer than Imlay City.

Tried to do a bit of fishing yesterday, but didn't have any luck (it was unbearably hot). I may try after work one of the evenings this week since it is supposed to cool off, and I see a lot more activity in the evening anyway.

Worst case scenario...I just buy fish big enough to avoid potential predation and avoid the small ones until I find someone that has what I need.

Your initially stocked 100 perch are very little predation threat to any fingerlings stocked this fall or spring. Those 100 YP are too busy eating very easy to catch fathead minnows rather than eating a few sportfish fingerlings that you will stock.

I wanted you to catch a few of the fish that you stocked this spring so you (we) had some idea of how well they grew in the murky water. Murky water usually slows down the growth (depending) of sight feeding sportfish.

Ugh...made phonecalls and got bad answers. Nobody seems to understand my need for instant gratification!!! :p

Imlay city is at least another two weeks out, and I don't know what sizes yet.

Laggis is out of SMB, YP and they don't carry RES.

Ridgeview has YP & RES, but they won't sell to anyone outside Ohio until the spring because their fish haven't been tested and allegedly their is some kind of restriction about crossing state lines with fish in the great-lakes area right now. Interestingly enough, they are closer to me than either of the Michigan fisheries.

The interstate problem is VHS (IIRC "viral hemmoraghic septicemia"). Cecil has posted extensively about it; it is why he currently has to scrifice 48 small SMB (for destructive testing) before he can ship his big SMB to BassPro.

Like I said earlier, it can be quite difficult to locate the desired fish primarily SMB and or walleye. You are now getting a better idea of what I meant. As I also said earlier, Imlay City is probably going to be your best choice at least for this year. Note that any fish you buy this fall will not grow very much at all from October to April in MI. In spring of 2008 fish availability may change. Keep in mind than during the spring fish sales, SMB are really, really hard to locate. Most everyone sells out of their SMB in the fall.

Derek,

Crystal Springs Fish Farm (231) 719-0335 up by Muskegon has a few SMB available. I am picking some up on Tuesday.

CS is only about 10 miles or so from me. I hear that they have a very good rep.

I picked up 100 x 6-7" YP and 150 x 5-6" RES this past weekend. I also got 10lbs of golden shiners, which may not have been a good idea yet, but I had the urge to buy fish, and they are a pain to find around here normally. HOPEFULLY, my Smallmouth will be in stock this week, and I'll take another trip to finish things out for now. I've been calling all month, and they keep telling me to try back in a week or two. I was very pleased with the fish I did get though...I think most of them were on the high side of the listed size-ranges. There were a few RES that looked almost ready to go in my frying pan.

Ok, change of plans...

Due to certification issues, Imlay City is not getting any SMB in this year. Laggis & Crystal Springs are out and won't have more until next August or later (and they will presumably be fingerlings?). I can't buy from out of state this fall.

New question:

If they do ok in the winter, I am expecting that I will have YP & RES both spawning next year. If I am not able to introduce SMB (possibly small ones) until next fall, do I run any serious risk of overpopulating to the point that my SMB can't catch up when they get big enough? Or is this actually a good thing to "give them a head start" for essentially two years?

Should I add a few walleye or something next spring to act as a temporary non-reproducing predator (HSB aren't available in MI)?

I'd like to stick with my original species as much as possible, but I don't want to let it get out of control right away. I don't mind adding in a second predator if it's not going to take over & interfere like LMB.

Obviously, I could fish out some of the bigger YP & RES next summer/fall if that helps, but I don't know if a handful of fish dinners will make a difference either. I have nothing to guage this on.

Any thoughts?

Any chance you could catch a few SMB in your area to put in now. Eyes would be better than nothing. I know Dave Willis has indicated the possibility that YP will get to far ahead of SMB with the resulting problems. The bigger YP and RES will not be the problem it will be their swarm of babies. You will need a predator. A few (10-15) local SMB in the 10-12in range would IMO be worth the risk of introduced problems. Check to see that they are from a location with no occurrence of VHS etc.

DerekG "I picked up 100 x 6-7" YP and 150 x 5-6" RES this past weekend. I also got 10lbs of golden shiners." Is this all the fish you have stocked so far?

No. I also put in 100 4-6" YP in May and 50 4-5" RES in June. Plus fatheads...20lbs in April and 20 lbs in May...they've been spawning all along.

So, not counting anything that may have died off, I should have a total of around 200 x 6-7" perch and 200 x 5-6" RES to go with the baitfish. I have actually seen only 1 dead YP & 1 dead RES, but obviously there could have been more. I do also have a full time GB Heron hanging out, but considering how infrequently I've seen any fish near the surface, I doubt it's had a huge impact.

If I don't add anything for the YP to spawn on near shore, will that slow them down some? The pond is only 15 months old with no significant vegetation, and it probably won't be completely full until June (or later).

Ewest, I wish I had the time to go fishing for some SMB, but it's really not an option for me at the moment.

Thanks again to everyone for the continued advice!

Ewest already spoke for me. I know that I'm more conservative than others on this web site. However, I'm not a big fan of smallmouths being in control of two panfish species. However, you did say that you don't have much vegetation, which may indeed give the smallies a chance to control perch and redears. Now, walleyes are very unlikely to reproduce in your pond. So, adding a few now or next spring to allow some predation on your panfish should not be very risky. They can serve as your predators initially, and you can fish them out once your smallmouths arrive. You may want to notch up your smallmouth stockings numbers, but in our studies in lakes and reservoirs, the walleyes just do not eat any smallmouths. I was very surprised by that, and of course, it may not apply in ponds where interactions among fish species is forced by the small size of the habitat.

DerekG’s summary paraphrased - ”Stocking into an unfilled 1.5 ac pond (15’ deep) at approx 7-10 deep currently with 4-5 ft to fill, I should have a total of around 200 x 6-7" perch and 200 x 5-6" RES to go with the baitfish of 40 lbs FHM breeders (spring) and 10 lbs golden shiners (fall).” Note 1/2 the YP & RES were stocked in spring and ½ in fall. Intended predators (SMB) will likely not be stocked until fall of 2008 and probably as fingerlings. Walleye (WE) might be introduced as a bonus fish.

DerekG asks “If I don't add anything for the YP to spawn on near shore, will that slow them down some?”

My answer is yes, however it all depends. It depends on several important things.
1. Of the 200 adult perch that are present, approx ½ are females - possible 100 egg strands in spring of 2008. No emergent or submerged weeds are present for spawning substrate, thus egg strands will settle and lie on a relatively new exposed mud bottom. Water has been murky cloudy all summer and is currently cloudy. Derek had a hard time catching any fish due to turbid water. This is no doubt due to silt clay being suspended from runoff and wave action on exposed bare mud shorelines. If current turbid conditions prevail in spring of 2008, YP egg strands will have a low hatching success due to suspended silt and clay particles settling on and suffocating embryos in egg strands.

My experience with YP is if one collects all egg strands that are deposited on numerous tree branches that have been deposited along the shoreline in shallow water, then the resulting YP hatch is negatively impacted. Amount of impact is fairly proportional to how many strands are laid in deep water and then hatch. Deep water egg strands in DerekG’s pond should have a very poor hatching success if water in again highly turbid in April of 2008. Also high degree of turbidity has a big negative affect on the phyto and zooplankton which fish fry feed on. Thus food will be in short supply due to high turbidity for the YP fry for those that do hatch.

So in mid March, set out 15 to 30 twiggy tree branches (4’-6’ long) at various places along the shoreline. I have found that YP will prefer to lay eggs along certain direction oriented shorelines. YP in my pond 1st prefer the east and 2 secondarily the west shoreline avoiding the northern, northwest, northeast shoreline. I get a few egg strands on the southern shore. However in other ponds I have seen YP prefer the northern shoreline. Check branches every few days and remove all egg strands. I am confident that with your current pond conditions, this will significantly affect the number of YP fry your pond produces in 2008. Turbidity and lack of shallow water remnant vegetation (natural spawning substrates) by themselves will have a big negative impact on you YP hatch.

2. I suspect that the RES will also have a hard time producing successful spawns in summer of 2008 due to all bottom areas are bare mud and coinciding high turbidity which has a negative affect on egg development and food for newly hatched fry.

3. There has been a previous discussion on this forum about adult yellow perch (YP) eating young bluegill (BG). Most of the information about this predatory behavior was based on a published research. I could not locate that topic using search. YP are a panfish as Dr. Willis mentions, but I consider them more of a predator than some of the other common panfish such as BG, RES, and other sunfishes. I consider YP similar to crappie when it comes to eating fish. Some articles indicate the YP prey on YOY BG especially during winter (Fullhart, Parsons, Willis, Reed 2002). Other articles report that YP were responsible for reducing the young of year YP by up to 25% in October and 96% mortality by year one due to cannibalism (Tarby 1974, Post & Evans 1989).

In DerekG’s pond YP cannibalism could have a significient impact on the 2008 YP hatch IF conditions are right. However I suspect that an abundance of FH minnows will result in a lot of FHM consumption instead of perch feeding in YOY perch. FHM are a very easy food item for YP. YP will not feed heavily on YOY perch in DerekG’s pond until the FHM are in short supply.

In summary, I think if DerekG can remove a large number of egg strands in 2008 and if the pond remains turbid, then survival of YOY Yperch in 2008 will be low. To verify the success of the YP – RES hatch, Derek should monitor the relative numbers of young fish by using wire minnow traps and maybe a few tows of a beach seine. If YP or RES numbers seem to be in excess YOY can be removed when trapped rather than releasing those fish back into the pond. If SMB are stocked as fingerlings, I would also monitor the YP and RES denisites each summer an fall until the SMB are able to spawn and their young are 6”-8” long. At that time the SMB and larger YP should be able to start eating enough young YP & RES to make a measurable impact on the numbers of young “panfish”. At this time I suspect the FH minnows will be rare or extinct and golden shiners and YOY RES & YP will be the backbone of the forage fish base. As with any fishery spawning success of each species present has a lot to do with the dynamics and interactions of the fish community.

As long as your pond remains turbid due to suspended clay/silt, the amount or degree of overall predation, spawning success, normal fish growth, and recruitment of young fish will all likely be reduced compared to relatively clear water conditions.

Great advice! Very specific and extremely helpful.

It hadn't even occured to me to give them a place to lay eggs, then yank them out before they hatch. Monitoring those habits will also help me identify their favorite sides of the pond for laying out eggs, and I can use that info for adjusting the spawn rate in future years.

I guess the only thing that I have that might contradict this plan is that the water has actually been clearing up quite a bit lately...plus in addition, I layed down straw along the slopes of about half my shoreline and also in the more heavily-eroded areas to be a little bit proactive in minimizing erosion in the spring. I was going to add a well this summer to keep the water topped off, but due to the possible depth and the need for a bigger electrical wire (man, copper is expensive these days!), I had to put that project off for a bit. If all goes well financially, I plan to add my well as soon as the area is dry enough to drive on next spring. That will hopefully top off the pond faster so I don't get so much silt runoff from the inner slopes, and I will also be able to water the spotty grass in the area around the pond, helping filter out some of the silt coming in from around the pond as well. I guess I'll just have to spend more time swimming this summer to muddy up the water more.

It will be hard to do enough swimming to keep 1.5 ac continually turbid. Typically right after ice out is when your water will be the clearest. As March winds, waves and rain runoff mix the pond, turbidity will increase and in your case your pond could quickly get fairly turbid. In fact you may have some trouble seeing the egg strands in 2-3 ft of water.

The critical time for turbidity or lack of it is when perch are laying eggs and those eggs are hatching. Y perch begin laying eggs when water gets close to 48F and spawning usually continues for about 3 weeks after that first egg strand is observed. Water temps around 50F are a little cold for comfortable swimming.

Egg strands will typically hatch in about 7-12 days after they are laid. Water temperature has a lot to do with rate of egg hatching. If the eggs don't hatch then there is little need to reduce phytoplankton & zooplankton communities as a way to limit food for hatchlings.

Removal of egg strands has been a very good way for me to keep numbers of young perch to a minimum in my pond. Each spring I typicaly remove about 50-75 egg strands per year from my pond. Since you are in SE MI, the common time for YP spawning in smaller ponds in our area is near April 1 to around Apr 20th. Occassionally very warm days in late March can result in the first egg strands to occur in the last few days of March. A cold April will result in spawning extending to the end of April when water tmeps can be 60F. Monitor the surface water temperatures and this will be a good indicator for when to look for eggs on brush.

BE sure to get the brush into the pond during early March 1-14. Lay brush with twigs sticking from water line to about 18"-24" deep. Often eggs are deposited very close to the water line in warmest water that has been warmed by the afternoon sun. Y perch will be more likely to use the brush for spawn sites when the perch have had time to get accustomed to the new brush additions. YP are somewhat hesitant to use new brush added during the active spawning period. In your new pond, YP should heavily utilize the tree branches for spawning because your pond currently has essentially no other spawning sites for them to use.

I suggest that you save my instructions and review them in late February or early March of 2008.

Keep us informed as to how the perch spawning and egg gathering is going for you next spring. I am interested in how accurate my predictions are for your situation. Since I am a little directly south (60mi) of you, keep in touch with me and I will let you know when I see the first YP egg strands in my pond. I have a few dependable early spawners.

aint that bill cody something?....great posts...great thread...

just my little thought for you derek.....perhaps aeration would help yer quest? sorry if i missed that you are already aerating.

my pond was ultra clear w/ alot of weeds until i started aerating (regularly) w/ bottom diffuser. i dont go 24/7, just through the night and until the sun hits the water in the morning. it has kept the pond turbid (w/ phyto bloom...not suspended particles) which has reduced the sunlight penetration and the excessive weed problems. it has also brought oxygen around and into the entire water column so fish are at all levels.