Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Advise on when to stock and what to stock.

Thanks for the heads up about the Coppernose Walt. I have seen those in different fish ads. What specie do they use in my area?
I left Bruce a note last week about his gills but he has not responded to me yet. Busy man.... I looked at the Frey site and they don't deliver to Indiana and don't ship... Thanks

esshup........Thanks for the welcome.... I am not far from you... I am in Valparaiso... Well, south a couple miles.... Do you have a pond over in Grovertown? Let me know.... John1944

Jphn1944:

Yep, the pond is behind the house.

Rex (rainman) is coming up to deliver some fish in the next few weeks. You're only about 1/2 hr. East of me.

If Bruce Condello will have time to part with some of his pets, that would be our best option for a great bluegill strain. I don't know if he'll have time to seine his ponds before his house is sold tho.... Hey Bruce, you listening??

John1944: check your PM's.

For your area, John, you would want just northern-(common) strain bluegill. That's what Bruce has, though he selectively breeds his for good genetics. Another option I thought of is Zetts hatchery in WV; they ship anywhere in the U.S., and they also breed their bluegill selectively. I've never bought their bluegill, but I have had good luck in the past buying other species from them.

Did you try either of those other hatcheries I linked to earlier in the thread? They're both close to you and I know at least one if not both of them delivers to you.

Thanks Walt. That is what I thought about the coppernose but some fisheries will sell them anywhere. I understand Bruce doesn't have any now and Jim Frey doesn't ship or deliver in Indiana. I am talking with Rainman about some stockers from JM Malone Hatchery.

John

Thanks everyone for your input to my decision making process. I am trying to digest it all and am continuing to read other threads. There are so many differing opinions so I guess I will try to put it all together and make what I HOPE will be the right one.... Not the end of the world if things don't work perfectly the first time....

Just remember the PondMeisters edict "it depends".

Question... With a newly dug pond, what can be done to help get the photoplankton and zooplankton colonies started or expanded for the forage fish.????

Cut open a bag of 13-13-13 fertilizer and place it in about a foot of water.

Get the water and soil tested so you know your situation.

10-46-0 fertilizer will give you a better bloom in most ponds; that's the formulation that most liquid and powder fertilizers have now, and it's worked a good bit better for me personally than the older formulation (which I usually see as 15-15-15, but basically the same stuff, not enough phosphorus). And either the liquid or powder, if applied correctly, will produce a bloom quicker than the granular. Especially if the latter is just left in the bag to dissipate; in my experience that method doesn't produce great results. Just my experience.

Thanks for correcting me guys!

Rex:

Where do you find 13-13-13? The local co-ops normally carry triple 12...

Forgive me, it must be one of those "getting old" things.

John:

Give Greg Grimes a call. He has water soluble pond fertilizer and can ship a bag to you. How big will the pond be when completed? IIRC it's 1/4 ac now?

John, I agree with Ewest. Depending upon the alkilinity of your soil, you might be naturally fertile and not need to fertilize. It is easy to get too much of a good thing and OVER fertilization is dangerous.

DD1:

This may not apply to John, (he's roughly 30 miles from me) and hopefully somebody else with more knowledge will chime in. When first moving here, I had the soil tested, and I was told that I needed to add 500# of lime per ac to bring the pH back in balance & 200#/ac of 12-12-12, and re-check in a year. The next year I needed 300# of lime/ac and the same amount of triple 12. After I renovated the pond, I spread the spoils all over the ground, raising the ground level around the house and near the road by roughly a foot. I had the soil re-tested, and this time the pH was 7.2, but it also showed that it was really lacking in Nitrogen, mildly lacking in P and K. 200#/ac of 25-5-10 was recommended, 3x/year for the first year, with a soil test done again in a year ($8.00 for the test since it's agriculture ground)

Most of the soil that was moved and spread out during the pond renovation never had any lime or fertilizer added to it, the terrain wouldn't allow it. So my question is why the large difference in pH? I can understand the difference in fertilizer.

Water is different than soil because of its solvent features. P is quickly dissolved in water and used up. Ponds are usually short on P not N or K ( the 3 ingredients in fertilizer #s like 13-13-13 N-P-K ). Some N may be needed as per Walt's 10-46-0 #. 0-46-0 is a common pelleted pond fertilizer. Different ponds react differently to different fertilizer programs (liming included)so it depends on your situation. That is the reason to get the soil and water tested.

Not sure I understand what you did esshup. The use of fertilizer on soil or water and the accompanying plant growth uses up nutrients and in that process also uses up lime (alkalinity is the proper test not pH) resulting in the breakdown of the soil nutrients and the addition of acidity. It’s part of the chemical process of plant growth/life. Some soils have enough alkalinity and do not require lime , some are short on N or P or K and some are lacking in other macro or even micro nutrients. The key is to find out through testing what the limiting factors are and address them.

Eric:

When I first bought this place, I wanted to plant some food plots, and took soil samples of the lawn area as well. There were big differences in fertilizer requirements between the 2 areas, but not so for the lime requirements.

Fast forward about 4 years to the pond renovation last year. Mostly sandy soil, with sand/gravel/clay mixture starting @ 12'-14' depth. The pond is a groundwater pond, relatively little surface run-off except in times of high surface water (i.e. Spring). I needed to dispose of the dirt that the pond renovation generated, and was able to sell 13 semi-truckloads, and move approx. 1,500 cu. yds. to my parents place 7 miles away. That left approx 18,000 or so cu. yds. to dispose of. The surface water during a heavy rain would puddle between the barn and the house, making for a soggy mess, so I re-contoured the land to direct the water away from the house to the pond using the remaining spoils from the pond renovation. (an area roughly 330' x 750') Those spoils were spread out anywhere from 10" to 24" deep.

If I understand the facts then those differences could easily be a result of the pond dirt having been exposed to ground water for extended periods. If the ground water picks up alkalinity from the soil through which it flows , it can then be deposited as excess Ca or Mg alkalinity in the pond bottom dirt. If you move that dirt to another location it can easily have different characteristics. Also the geology of the dirt deposits can change over short distances. Those are also reasons to have the water and soil tested. I should have been specific. When I say soil tested I am talking about the soil in the pond basin/bottom and immediately adjacent lands.

Okay guys....Here is the next question... When testing the ph of the pond. I just read that the best way is to take multiple small samples from the bottom of the pond with a long pole and a can attached to the end. Mix the samples up, dry the sample, then have it tested. I understand that alright, BUT, why can't you simply take a water sample from say, the middle of the pond, and test that like you test a swimming pool to determine the ph of the water itself?? Sounds pretty straight forward and very simple...

Also, to test the soil around the pond. I assume the soil tested would be that soil that is on the adjacent banks that would perhaps leach into the pond? Would it be necessary to test the ground 20 feet from the pond?

Thanks in advance for your comments everyone.

Because your water PH can change 3-4 points in any given time frame. In the early morning, water PH may be 6.0 due to Carbonic acid forming from the carbon dioxed released by plant. Late in that same afternoon, with enough calcium to buffer/neutrilize that acid, the water PH may rise to over 8.0.

You can measure alkalinity from pond water and it does not change rapidly like pH.

ewest,

I thought that pH is the measurement of the acidity or alkalinity of the water. If that is correct, then I don't understand what your statement means that you can measure the alkalinity in pond water and it doesn't change rapidly like pH... Help me out here.

Total alkilinity is a different measurement from pH, though the pH scale does, I believe, measure acidity versus alkilinity.  The proper total alkilinity level in your water provides some level of general stability to the water, ensuring that the pH doesn't fluctuate as much.

Like you, I'm not positive what the difference in total alkilinity and pH alkilinity is, but have managed a hot tub long enough to learn about the distinction, which also applies to our ponds. I'm sure one or more of the scientific folks will elaborate and we'll both learn something!