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Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
wneal #184654 09/23/09 08:44 AM
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Thanks Wes we would sure like to hear the results. Thanks again for the help and comments.

Wes said "...the only accurate way to tell a Florida bass from a northern bass is genetically ...."

True ! That is why I got Flas from Todd as they were from genetically tested stock , and why Greg got the Northerns from a So Ill hatchery with no chance of Fla input and the F-1s from ASF who's fish are tested. There still could be a rouge gene but we did what we could to avoid the possibility. One more reason to know your fish sources guys.

Last edited by ewest; 09/23/09 08:48 AM.















Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
ewest #184678 09/23/09 10:26 AM
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At the very minimum, we can say that the conference successfully netted (no pun intended) us one more professional to add into the mix for the forum.

Thanks Dr. Neal!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
Sunil #184699 09/23/09 01:49 PM
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Hey Doc Neal, hang around. We haven't had a thread this good in some time.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
Dave Davidson1 #184710 09/23/09 03:26 PM
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Overton Fisheries provides pure genetically tested Florida LMB.
Documentation of tests are provided on Todd's website.
http://www.overtonfisheries.com/LinkClick.aspx?link=floridatesting.BMP&tabid=66&mid=392



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
george1 #184721 09/23/09 05:46 PM
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Thanks George, FYI we tested fingerlings again this summer and got 100% pure Florida results and I have just completed the link to that documentation as well. The previous testing was done in 2005, and we have the same broodstock at this time.


It's ALL about the fish!
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #184787 09/24/09 05:09 AM
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OK, that is one. So far, only one hatchery that WE know of with pure Floridas. To mix up the pure gene pool, we need another one with a certification that didn't come from Todd or is different that the batch Todd started with. Who else?

BTW, I knew about THE ONE.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
Dave Davidson1 #184907 09/24/09 03:51 PM
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Hmm.. only ONE that might mean prices are going up, at least that is what we learned in economic class when taught about supply and demand. Seriously kudos to Todd for testing. Many hatcheries claim pure florida but do not test probably in fear of the truth of not pure. I know Todd's are swimming around in Jeff Foxworthy lake.


Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
Greg Grimes #184916 09/24/09 04:36 PM
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Several others . Last I checked ASF and Suttle did.
















Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
ewest #184970 09/24/09 10:36 PM
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I have a possible solution for new ponds and lakes that doesn't sacrifice the characteristics of the tiger bass:
What about stocking new ponds and lakes with fingerling LMBs from a local private hatchery that used trophy bass for broodstock? What if those broodfish were harvested via angling only? Like a private Share-lunker program possibly? Selecting large males from a wild population along with large females from a wild population as broodstock OR breeding lunker females with pure strain florida or pure strain norther in order to sway the genetic future possibly.

Wes you should comment on this idea....

Anyone know what sub-species that TPWD crosses their lunker females LMB with??

The idea of taking proven females and males performing well in a local climate via angling methods only sure does select for a great genetic potential for their offspring fingerlings.

OH

Another option is for low fishing pressure instances or where live bait fishing is practiced or if you are a skilled angler:
Stock pure florida only, then when it is time for you to harvest crowded bass you can leverage this pure strain commodity with a pond management company in exchange for services rendered. Availability of pure florida juveniles and adults is very limited.




Last edited by overtonfisheries; 09/24/09 10:38 PM.

It's ALL about the fish!
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #184983 09/25/09 06:18 AM
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We stocked 100 fingerling Overton pure strain Florida LMB in a 1/4 acre grow-out pond last October, to grow out for stocking in main pond.
Anxious to determine survival rate in HSB/CNBG pond.
Our plan is to maintain pure Florida strain LMB in this pond.



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
george1 #185000 09/25/09 08:25 AM
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Todd - Selective breeding like you suggest is theoretically possible. Several studies recently have demonstrated a genetic link to catchability, not only between strains, but within strains as well. And Texas has been breeding lunker bass to lunker bass for some time now hoping to skew the genetics towards fast growing fish.

Of the biggest 20 bass taken in Texas waters, all were Florida or at least had a significant proportion of Florida alleles. My *Guess* is that they are primarily breeding Floridas, but that is only a guess.

The idea of trading small bass for services is an interesting one. When removing bass using angling, you catch and remove the "biters," and leave the "non-biters" to grow and spawn. By managing harvest using electrofishing, you would be randomly removing fish regardless of their aggressiveness, and should not be influencing the catchability of the remaining population.

Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
wneal #185002 09/25/09 08:35 AM
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Here are 2 links to recent threads on the catchability topic. It includes the 2 studies TX and ILL. There is a recent article in PB mag on the topic reviewing these studies.

Largemouth 'catchability' may be inherited

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post159224

How much fishing is too much?

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181009&fpart=1

Here is part of one study from AFS - see red text.

Admixture Analysis of Florida Largemouth Bass and

Northern Largemouth Bass using Microsatellite Loci

DIJAR J. LUTZ-CARRILLO*

CHRIS C. NICE, TIMOTHY H. BONNER, AND MICHAEL R. J. FORSTN

LORAINE T. FRIES



Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 135:779791, 2006

 Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 2006



We found no evidence of a heterotic effect (in terms

of size) resulting from first-generation crosses between

Florida largemouth bass and northern largemouth bass.

The majority of trophy-sized fish with an admixed

genome were later-generation hybrids with a larger

percentage of Florida largemouth bass alleles.
There

was also no observable negative impact on size from

the admixed genetic background in these fish, most

likely because of the modified environment to which

they were introduced and the nonadaptive radiation of

micropterids (Near et al. 2003).


Last edited by ewest; 09/25/09 08:40 AM.















Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405607 03/26/15 07:00 PM
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All,

I have stocked my 1/7/8" acre pond with OLLY Overton Bass, 75 LMB with 25 CBLMB. I only started culling in the last couple of months and I may be bass heavy according to my catche wewight results this year.

I am game for anyone who may want some pure Florida strain Overton Bass offspring. My original stock was 4 years ago this summer.

Heck, for a real cold beer, maybe 2 or 3, I would be willing to part with a few lbs.....lol

Coupe


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Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
Couppedeville #405623 03/26/15 09:44 PM
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What a generous offer. Coupe, you make me proud to be a Louisianan and a member of PB! If I can help a fellow PB member some time, I hope to emulate your good example.

A couple of questions for you. First, you mentioned 75 LMB and 25 CBLMB. Do I understand correctly that the 75 are also pure Floridas, though not CB? So the offspring are all pure Floridas, but with a mixture of CB and non CB?

Second, would it be possible for someone to go down there and sex the bass? My main pond isn't built yet, but I'd love to stash some pure female Floridas in a small growout pond and feed them up. Maybe this is impossible due to distance -- Marshall, TX (where my land is) is a long way from Washington, LA -- but it would be fun to try.

Anyway, thanks for the kind offer. If I can't swing it, I'm sure there are others who will jump at the chance!


Last edited by anthropic; 03/26/15 09:45 PM.

8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20, 201




Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405637 03/27/15 07:14 AM
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Coupe, I think this might be a good time to ask this question. Since you have stocked 100% pure Florida's and now they are in the 4 year, have you had any problem catching the Florida's with artificial baits? I would think the answer would be no. Maybe because of the number of them or maybe because of their size? Me, I have little concern that my future stocking of the pure Florida's will hamper me from catching them. What are you seeing? And what size LMB after 4 yr's growth?

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 03/27/15 07:16 AM. Reason: additions

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
TGW1 #405639 03/27/15 07:33 AM
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Tracy, I'm not sure this thing about "catchability" problems with pure Florida LMB is not exagerated.
Some maybe, but mostly from cactch and release causing conditioning problems or lack of angler skill.

I seldom target our pure Overton Floridas but when I need to cull they are easy to catch due to no fishng pressure.
I caught 12 in one aftrnoon in a couple of hours on a rattle trap last year. We are culling heavy to increse CBLMB genetics and we took out more thn 70 past year and a half - 22 since November.

May have something due to lack of experience of angler.
Anyway, just my thoughts - I don't think you will have a problem.
George



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405642 03/27/15 08:03 AM
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You and I are on the same page George. I think the Florida's are catchable. But I thought the question was a good one smile And since he is here in Louisiana I was interested in his growth rates of the LMB. Assuming he has plenty of forage fish and he is not overstocked with his LMB.

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405664 03/27/15 10:30 AM
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Anthropic,

I have a quote from Ewest which answers your question, I think,

Ewest Commnets quote:
"If the 75 are Fla strain you will not be able to tell genetically the difference between them and CB because I don't think that can be measured yet. Fla , northern and F-1 or Fxs can be genetically determined (not cheap to do and only a few places can do so). Cross breeding in this context means crossing 2 distinct species not 2 strains of LMB or 2 types of Fla LMB. For example if 2 humans have a baby it is not a cross as both parents are human (one species). End of Quote.

Maybe Todd Overton will join in and set the record straight on your question......


TGW1,

We have been catching LMB on beetle spins, white crank baits, silver rattle traps, H&H spinner baits, black jigs off bottom, live worms and the kids prefered method......live bluegill....2-3" hooked through the back.

Quote from 10 year old girl, We raised the worms to catch the bluegill which we used to catch the LMB.....I am "The Fishing Queen" Dad....

My catch data of LMB are as follows

2013

11" 0.5625
11" 0.5625
12" 0.625
12" 1.0625
12.6" 1.6875
12.0" 1.1875
14" 1.5625
12.5" 0.875
12" 0.9375
15" 2.4375
17" 2.3125
18" 2.5625
15" 1.8125
11" 0.5
14" 1.5

2014

16.5" 2.375
16.5" 2.063
14.5" 2.063
12" 0.813
10.5" 0.500
8.5" 0.563
11" 0.500
11" 0.500
15" 1.313
14" 1.313
17" 2.313
17" 2.563
17" 2.188

2015

15.25" 0.875
12" 0.5625
13" 0.9375
11.75" 0.4375
12" 0.5000
19" 3.875
14" 1.438
15" 1.813
15" 1.000
11.25" 0.625

As we can all see, it appears my latest catch weights are well below WR.

Coupe


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Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405676 03/27/15 11:20 AM
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TGW1,

We are seeing a bunch of smaller bass being caught lately. The feeder has been off and the smaller BG are hanging around that shallow area so the smaller bass are patrollking the shore line. Since the kids love to fish for the CNBG / BG around the feeder, they catch a few small LMB here and there.

I had a friend that wanted some offspring of the CB so a couple of weeks ago we attempted to catch some LMB but it had been raining for awhile, the water was muddy and catching was slow. We pulled 5 out, tagged each and then transported to friends 12 acre lake. All were under RW. We were hoping to catch some of the 100 original LMB but was unsuccessful.

We have sinced turned on the feeder feeding 7 times a day, about 13 seconds total feed time. The fish are really turning on, catfish and HSB are really hitting the food hard. Actually, we have pulled 2 CC out that were caught on a small BG on a hook while they were feeding on the Aquamax feed. 5.5 lb and 4.3 lb. These CC are 2-1/2 years old.

So, plan forward is pulling out all LMB under 16", removing all LMB under 85% RW, increase feeding from supplemental to adding lots of weight, put fish trap back into water and see what small BG/CNBG we can catch and monitor their sizes.....contemplating electroshocking....chatting back and forth with Mr. Greg Grimes right now...want to remove last 7 CC that was originally stocked 4-1/2 years ago....last one caught was over 10 lbs....I think they, CC, are hammering the small BG, heavy on small LMB.....just my less than amature guess at this point....

Coupe


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Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405751 03/28/15 08:12 AM
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Thanks Coupd, I am thinking you are needing to thin back the lmb numbers, and looks like they will bite on most any lmb baits, artificial or natural. smile Sounds like the 10 yr old, "Little Fishing Queen" is having a great time getting her string stretched.

Do you have an idea of what your bluegill stocking ratio to LMB was when you started this fun. And would you change anything to this point? And if you did change something, why ?

Thanks

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405753 03/28/15 09:09 AM
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TGW1,

Yes, I have no doubt I need to cut back on my LMB. They will be spawing here shortly and then summer time coming, we should be able to get them knocked back.

The self proclaimed "Fishing Queen" is one of a kind. Last summer brother in law and his wife came by to gather a few fish to take home but fishing was slow. I told brother in law that I will get the fishing queen to come with us...he laughed, said whatever, its not like I don't know how to fish. Well, fishing queen hauled in 23 CNBG, BG, brother in law, notta, zip, sister in law had 1 7 lb cat and 1 4 lb LMB. Nothing else......He is a believer of "The Fishing Queen". lol, To top it off, she explained each fish to him, telling a male from female by the flap, NBG from CNBG....He was schooled just a lil bit....lol

My stocking was 1,000 CNBG, 500 NBG, 300 RE, waited 6 month and added 75 FLMB, 25 CB, 20 HSB, 25 CC. With the pond at full pool of 1-7/8 acres and knowing she would get as low as 1 acre with the droubt at that time, I stocked for a 1 acre pond.

What would I change?
1.I would have stocked all fish from Overtons but did not know of his exsistance at that time when I purchased the CNBG, NBG, RE.
2. I would have added 300 additional CNBG in January for 3 years straight to build up my forage base.
3. I would have started harvesting LMB last summer instead of waiting till this year.
4. I would have went with all CB for the pond. That would have meant waiting till the following year to be able to afford the bass plus a full year to let my forage base build.
5. I would not change the LMB stocking ration, as you can see, I have LMB heavy right now or at least starting to look that way. My goal was large LMB, 5-7 lb range for the kids, plus smaller but that was my LMB weight limit.
6. I would have tagged every LMB I put in there, all 100 of them...once again, fund limited but should have waited. That data would be irreplacable if I had it now.
If I do the electroshock thing, I will tag every LMB that is original and above RW that I would be keeping.

Coupe


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Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405768 03/28/15 12:44 PM
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Sounds like you have a good handle on what should be done, Coupe. And really you didn't make any big mistakes in the original stocking, at least nothing that can't corrected. Ratio of 18 to 1 BG to LMB is pretty good, after all.

Re the CC, are they able to spawn in your pond? Do you see small ones? If not, that will make it much easier to reduce their numbers. From what I've heard, though, CC are plenty smart and very hard to fool after they've been caught, so you might consider taking out every one you catch.

By the way, does Louisiana allow tilapia in a private pond? They could help keep down FA and feed the LMB at the same time, especially when the temps get cool and they become sluggish.


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20, 201




Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405787 03/28/15 06:17 PM
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I think this may be a good time to comment about the status of TGW1's lake progress:

We have stocked the fathead minnows, redear sunfish, coppernose bluegill, all as small size 1-3" fish. With the coppernose bluegill I was lucky enough to have some 4"-6" brooder size thread fin shad mixed in. Almost forgot, also 5 lbs of tilapia LOL.

I don't intend to specify the numbers that have been stocked, but TGW1 can if he wants to. I will say that we intended to stock many more threadfins than we were able to acquire, and I am sorry about that. This shad pond has few reserve CB Broodstock (to keep em fat) that apparently spawned last year, and there were few camelot bell fingerlings in the mix. These are impossible to pick out 100% in the short time that is required to handle threadfin shad. If your shad order had been intended for an existing bass lake then this mix would have been a BONUS!!. But since you are starting fresh and building baitfish, we had to throw in the towel on this particular deal for fear of trashing the program.

My two other shad ponds experienced winter kill this year, unfortunately, as they were smaller size shad in shallow ponds 4' deep. The larger shad seem to handle the cold better. I watched crows all winter long hauling off struggling shad. I am devoting 3 ponds to thread fin shad production this spring, and small shad from this program will be available by July time frame. These will be yours, TGW1, if you still want em by that time.

This is a critical time to tell you, TGW1, that in some ways, the ball is in your court right now. In my opinion, the most important thing you should be thinking about right now is plankton. With abundant plankton, all of these baitfish will expand population by leaps and bounds. I have seen farm pond production of 50k-100k coppernose bluegill or threadfin shad per surface acre. This kind of production is possible in a new pond, starting from scratch, with good water quality and a plankton bloom. Walt said your pond was really looking good, and so I think you are on the right track. Watch out for submerged aquatic vegetation and algae. Nip it in the bud as soon as you see it pop up, because you want all available nutrients to feed plankton. If you are getting a bloom with inorganic fertilizer then proceed and monitor visibility. If you aren't getting a plankton bloom, and don't have weed or algae problems, don't be afraid to ask me about some organic fertilizers. I also recommend you apply for your grass carp permit and stock a few grass carp per acre to PREVENT submerged aquatic vegetation problems.

By June you should have spoils of baitfish. Proceed with 100% camelot bell fingerlings as planned. If you become a baitfish farmer (manage for plankton production), maintain good water quality, feed pellets, control water weeds/algae, then I would not be surprised by some bass over 10lbs in three years time. Managing submerged weeds and algae is critical for maintaining steady progress.

I can't wait to watch what you do with this lake over time..


It's ALL about the fish!
Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405810 03/28/15 08:49 PM
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Hey, Todd, Frank here. I had the opportunity to meet you at the Pond Boss conference after hearing all the glowing reports about your integrity & knowledge. Didn't realize you were so (relatively) young!

Re the Camelot Bell, I can believe in their good genetics and trophy potential. What concerns me as a grandpa with three grandkids is catchability, which of course is always a question asked about pure Florida LMB.

What do you see & hear about this issue? Are CB as catchable as other Floridas, or more so, or less so? How do they compare with F1s in this aspect in your judgment?

PS Sorry to ask a question you've heard a million times, but there are some folks whose opinions I have great respect for, and you are one of them.


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20, 201




Re: F1 LMB and Outbreeding Depression
overtonfisheries #405831 03/29/15 06:32 AM
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Likes: 21
Thanks for this Sept 09 thread here Todd. And Thank you for the help with this new 3.5 acre pond today. 3/15.
Stocking numbers are
6,700 CNBG (1 to 3")
1,850 RES
130 lbs FHM
5 lbs Tilapia (30-4" fish)
200 to 300 4" brooders of TFS (some in November some in March) And more to come in July
850+- Native crawfish
Note to others who are considering Overtons Fishery. Todd has not charged me for any of the TFS. He was not able to go with the heavy TFS stocking due to this yr's winter kill but he still threw some brooders in and at No Charge. Their desire to please the customer is a Game winner for me. Not even to mention the Floridia Camalot Bell Jumper LMB fingerlings they have. smile
Todd, the Grass carp permit has been filed and we are waiting for the permit which should be here by late May.
We will Fertilize this Texas Pond as soon as the water temps hit 65, water is now @ 64.
Pond is free of weeds with little FA. Some Fa is there but the snow and ice we had with the 42 degree water we had just in the past 3 weeks has set the FA back.
I am waiting on you Amego, for the 10,000 TFS smile I am trying to kid with you here smile
We are going to set 2 more Texas Hunter feeders and that will give us 3. For getting the CNBG growing ASAP. presently feeding Cargils.

10 lb Lmb in 3 Yrs. Now everyone knows our Goals here. lol
And for those who want to know the LMB ratio? It can be estimated @ this time using 150 LMB which will arrive @ the pond in or around June 1st 2015.
HSB are also going into this pond this fall.

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
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