Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose General questions about population dynamics

Hello all, I'm new to the forum. I've been reading the board for a few weeks and immediately subscribed to the print magazine. I received my first issue very promptly and love the mag and the website.

I have a fair sized farm that I believe will allow a 1-2 acre pond when I find the time and money to begin the project. Haven't spoken with the county agent or any contractors yet but based on my limited knowledge, I should be able to make it work out OK.

I know that most people ask how many fish of each species to stock, but I'm interested in knowing something a bit different. Let's assume that I were to stock a 1 acre lake (or 2 acre, etc.) with FHMs, Crayfish, SMB and YP. What densities of those species could I expect to find a few years down the road assuming that the biology of the pond was good and it seemed to find a balance? Would it pay to harvest fish, and if so, at what numbers? Or perhaps most ponds would self-regulate and find their own balance without any harvest?

As a followup question, how big would you expect the perch and the smallmouth to get? I realize that's a really general question and it would be variable, I'm just looking for ballpark figures. Around these parts, I'm aware of a few ponds that have very large (10-14") perch, but of the few smallmouth ponds I know of, the fish don't seem to do particularly well, perhaps because of competition.

Thanks in advance for any and all answers, I've been enjoying my pond education immensely.

Welcome to the form Ganggreen.

You pose an interesting question that may not have an absolute answer. But here are some generalities that may be helpful. If you leave the pond to playout without you or anyone or anything harvesting the fish ( including herons ...etc ) the fish will produce until they have filled the carrying capacity of the pond. Once they do that the fish will start stunting. It is the pld primise of a goldfish will only grow as large as his fish bowl.

If you have the right balance you may be able to hold the fish balance and have the pond self regulating but even lakes and larger bodies of water have the balance shift over time and that is why there are stocking programs to maintain the balance that we would like to see.

You would expect to see some of the original fish to get to some fairly good sizes ( perch 12 + inches and SMB maybe 18 inches ) but as the next generations start to have the pond hit their carrying capacity you would start to see stunting. Thus over time the average size would decrease.

To help this out you could let the Herons do their job, fish the pond and select out certain fish and certain sizes. Allow the water turkeys to get their fill. ...etc

I hope this helps. I would ask more from the experts on here around this subject.

Thanks for the response Eric. I guess then to insure the maximum size potential of the fish, it would pay to allow them to come close to carrying capacity but to always keep them just shy of filling the biological capacity, ie. to keep them hungry all the time and to kill off some fish, either through harvest or natural predation. I wonder what most people with YP/SMB ponds feel is the optimum level of harvest per year per acre. Again, I realize it would have to be a generality since each pond is different.

Other than by watching the general health of the fish in the pond, I wonder if there are other indicators that your fish are fat, healthy and not over-populated. Obviously, most of us don't have electrofishing equipment or the means to net an entire pond (although it would be a blast to see what was in most ponds).

Ganggreen:

Welcome to the PB forum. Eric provided good info. Pond balance and carrying capacity involves understanding all the basic pond concepts including water quality , fish species and traits , survey or sampling methods (creel , seine , visual , electroshock etc) , and management and how all these and other factors fit together.

One example is you do not have to seine the whole pond to know how things are progressing. There are sample methods for this using a 20-30 ft. seine.

As a general rule a newly made and stocked pond is more productive and will move toward reaching carrying capacity in 2-3 years. A pond that is fertile and uses supplemental feeding can have much higher production but requires close attention to water quality. Carrying capacity can be millions of little fish or a hundred big ones or anywhere in between, but is usually expressed in lbs of fish per acre.

I will find a couple of recent SMB/YP/BG/FH pond threads and add them here.

Ewest, thank you kindly. I've checked out the "adjusting fish populations" forum and found tons of good stuff, much like what you gave me, but not much in the way of SMB/YP, etc..

Thanks again.

GG

Sometimes info is not easy to find. I will post a few YP, LMB, SMB threads here so check back.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000173;p=1#000000 ***SEE THIS ONE FIRST ***


http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000111#000001

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000493;p=1#000005

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002544#000000

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001082#000000

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002544#000000

Ganggreen -- I'll take the bait. However, I'm going to have to make some guesses. Do you have relatively fertile soil in your location? Are there crops? If so, the following may apply. If you are in a location with less fertile, more leached soils, then these numbers will be too high. I work in the Midwest, so we have fertile ponds.

Smallmouth bass density in your pond in several years will depend on whether they reproduce successfully. In ponds around here, they commonly overpopulate and stunt. Such ponds can have anywhere from 50 to perhaps 80 pounds per acre of smallmouths. However, while the first stocked fish grow quickly and often get to at least 18 inches, the ponds are quicly overwhelmed with a bunch of 8 to 12 inch smallies. They require selective harvest of the small ones, and lots of it! You have to keep at it. However, if you read a lot of the posts from our more southerly pondmeisters, their biggest problem with smallmouths often is either a lack, or at least very inconsistent, reproduction. We need some Nor'east folks to comment for you!

The yellow perch in Midwestern ponds probably top out about 45 pounds/acre. However, I've seen them up to a couple hundred pounds per acre in the right place at the right time. Again, too many perch will lead to slow growing, small fish.

The fatheads probably will disappear with a couple of predators in your pond. This usually happens within a couple of years.

I have no idea what to say about the crayfish. Maybe someone else can toss a guess at us.

OK, as I said, these are just guesses. However, I'm also "guessing" that this is the type of information that you were seeking??

Dave, yes, thank you, that was the type of educated guess I was looking for. I have fairly fertile soils on much of my property but much of the area where I may end up building the pond would likely have less fertile soil. Assuming that I do end up with YP/SMB, I'd be more than willing to fillet the fighter, at least with the perch. I'd be less inclined to kill/eat the smallies but will do whatever's necessary to keep the pond in balance. I'm still in the initial stages of research as it's fairly uncommon to see anything other than LMB/BG in ponds around here. I'm very curious about HSB as well but, again, I only know of one pond that is reputed to have HSB and I don't know how they've done. I may have to make a friendly visit to that pond owner one of these days. Truth is that I'd be perfectly happy if I could keep a pond with nothing but YP and baitfish if I could be assured of a healthy population of large perch, the SMB, LMB, HSB or whatever else ends up in the pond would be for variety for my kids.

Thanks again to all of you for the welcome and the info.

Couple more thoughts for you, GG.

In nearly all circumstances, yellow perch and minnows will end up with a pond full of perch with none bigger than 8 inches. The only exception would be where something limits yellow perch reproduction, which is rare. I've had a lot of people tell me that yellow perch are predacious and will control their own young. That is not true, except under unique circumstances. In nearly all cases, you put yellow perch into a 1-2 acre pond, and they will stunt. The first stocking will grow like gangbusters and reach large sizes, but that will only last for a few years. If you really wanted to attempt a perch-minnow pond, about the only thought I have is that you might start trapping the small perch, and thereby be the predator yourself. I'm not sure of PA regulations? Can you use fisheries gear in private waters? Better check that. Finally, Pond Boss forum expert Bill Cody has had some luck with yellow perch only ponds, using a feeding program. If you haven't found his threads, and if he doesn't spot this and respond, you might contact him directly for advice.

If you looked through the other threads on yellow perch, you may have seen that I'm not a big fan of smallmouth bass being an effective predator on yellow perch. In your case, I would strongly suggest that smallmouth bass and yellow perch are not a good combination if you have very much submergent vegetation to protect the small perch from predation by bass. If you have a relatively "clean" pond, then it might work. Smallmouth bass are really great fun in ponds. Few fish fight like them! Kids love the jumps that the smallies always provide.

Thanks again Dave, great information. I guess I didn't figure on perch stunting when they're on the top of the food chain. I mean, I love yellow perch, as do my family members, but I'm not sure keeping a few meals a year would stay ahead of them either. I'll keep reading the forum, reading the print magazine and MAYBE by the time I actually start construction I'll have some idea what I want to put in the pond.

GG - My experiences with YP are sometimes differerent than those experienced by Dr Dave. YP ponds near me are smaller sized 1/4 -1 acre; most 1/3 ac. Rarely are they allowed to be weed infested. Many of the YP panfish based ponds supervised by me are ponds where the perch are fed high protein fish pellets. I think feeding pellets to YP reduces the chances of perch stunting and increases carrying capacity. Pellets provide frequently available food to those willing to eat pellets and good growth rates result. Not all YP (abt 25-40% in small ponds) in each new year class will learn to eat pellets. Often these slower growing YP tend to stay small longer and are thus more vulnerable to predation than the plumper faster growing sibling YP. Thin looking perch are easily recognized and can be easily sorted outand removed when caught in traps or by angling.

Tonight I sampled a 12 year old perch only pond (1/3ac) where YP are fed 41% protein pellets. NO other predators. Fathead minnows are occassionally added and quickly consumed by perch. Aquashade is used at medium low concentrations to help reduce weeds. Two grass carp help keep narrow leafed pondweed in check. Numerous small pathes of filmentous algae are around shoreline. I am not sure of how many perch the owner harvests per year; however I can ask when I return tomorrow to harvest the fish traps. I am sampling this and other ponds this summer to gather data for my presentation at the First Annual Pond Boss Convention in March.

I fished one hour in the above pond with a worm, small long shanked hook and bobber. I caught 30 perch that ranged from 4.25"-12.0". Ave size was 7.6" near the feeding area and 6.0" on opposite shore of feeding area. Ten of the 30 YP were greater than 8.0".

Last spring in my perch based pond that has a few saugeye as supplimental predators, I used 4" YP as bait for saugeye under a bobber. I caught 5 YP, 8.5"-12" long and then quit fishing cause I did not want to further harass my perch. From this I concluded YP will eat good sized smaller perch. I am pretty sure that 10"-14" YP will eat a fair number of small (2"-3") YP especially if minnows are scarse.

I am pretty sure that SMB (10"-15"), that have numerous smaller YP present, will eat smaller sized (2"-4") YP esp if the crayfish population is sparse. A local low-weed pond (1/3ac) near me has YP with SMB. YP were harvested and SMB catch and release. YP in this pond are scarse and large (12"+). SMB of all sizes were common in this pond 3 yrs ago during my YP study. Since then the owner has been removing some SMB to try to help improve the YP numbers. I will sample this pond again soon to gather more data for my PBoss Convention Presentation.

There are several perch based, low-weed, ponds near me that have HSB as predators. None of these ponds have stunted perch. Often small YP appear to be low in numbers. I will also sample one of these HSB-YP ponds to check for larger and smaller sized perch for my PB convention presentation.

Tomorrow I will return to provide some thoughts regarding YP carrying capacity and harvest rates.

Can't wait to hear the updates at the PBoss Convention!!

Yeah, you've got me dying to go to that convention as well. I'm also very curious to hear your thoughts about carrying capacity and harvest rates. Just fascinating stuff for a fellow like me.

Saugeye, huh? That's interesting as well.

Part two of Carrying Capacity and Harvest. Keep in mind that my pond examples in the post above may not be the general rule for ponds and they are probably situations were at least with some proper management, ponds can produce a half-way decent fishery.

Here are some of my concepts of the expected general total biomass of SMB and YP in ponds and my recommended harvest rates for perch and SMB based on small ponds in NW Ohio.

Carrying Capacity and Standing Crop or Stock.

Carrying capacity is usually thought to be the maximum poundage of a given species or complex of species that a limited and specific aquatic community may support during a stated interval of time (Bennett 1970). Bennett concludes the concept of carrying capacity is often considered largely theoretical and not absolute.

Compare this to Standing Crop which is the poundage of a species or complex of species of fishes present in a body of water at a SPECIFIC MOMENT. As Bob Lusk often points out, the fishery is dynamic and always changing thus the standing crop will vary during different times of the year. The standing crop might be lower than, equal to or larger than the average carrying capacity of the pond. Bruce Condello noted in his archive post about carrying capacity, numerous environmental factors cause the standing crop and or carrying capacity to fluxuate.
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000004

A 3 yr study by Buck & Thoits of one species populations in several experimental ponds, that were fertilized once, found the SMB developed standing crops ranging from 55-130 lbs/ac(minus the hi&lo). Bennett & Childers studied SMB for 8 yrs in a gravel pit where highest standing crop was 100 lbs/ac. Regier reported standing crops of SMB to be 139-146 lbs/ac after a 3 yr study.

Yellow perch in the Buck & Thoits study achieved standing crops of 94-183 lbs/ac(minus hi&low). They concluded that contrary to other studies intermediate sized (4”-7”) perch were less efficient in utilizing invertebrate foods than were SMB of the same size category. They speculated that in the absence of vertebrate food the SMB is more efficient insectivore that YP. They further concluded YP smaller than 5” utilize foods not usually eaten by larger perch.

In my three articles about raising YP in small ponds (Farm Pond Harvest magazine), I stated that ponds without feeding or fertilization that had relatively clear water would produce 100-150 pounds of YP/ac. Many northern ponds without fertilization become fairly clear and contain low to moderate amounts of rooted weeds. Rooted weeds can tie up or bind a significient amount of pond fertility. Increased fertility or feeding pellets will increase the standing crops. I recommended a harvest from these fairly clear ponds to be 20-40 lbs per yr. This equates to a harvest rate of around 20%-26% which is somewhat lower than some of the estimated natural mortalities of 30-40% for bluegill and bass fisheries. I like to error on the side of lower harvest amounts to improve the catch rate for angling. Rarely do ponds have more fish than the owner thinks are actually present.

For harvest of SMB from a pond with YP, I think a harvest of 10% (5-10 lbs/ac) would be a conservative and safe amount. I think the harvest rate of primary predators is most importantly dependant on the goals for the fishery. For SMB harvest from a pond where SMB are used as the primary predator on perch, I think the harvest of SMB should be based on the desired population size of each of the year classes. If one year class seems to be too abundant and is cropping too many of the desired sizes of YP, then thin some of the appropriate sized SMB. I think fish harvest in any fishery is primarily dependant on the goals for the fishery.

POST SCRIPT - From my experiences, I think HSB, SMB or maybe walleye are overall better predators in a YP pond that saugeye. I think that one reason YP tend to become stunted in ponds is that the first year class of YP is overharvested which results in low predatory pressure on subsequent year classes of YP. It is important to maintain good numbers of larger perch if few other species of predators are present.

Bill :

Great post. What about adding fish in the year class/size that has been cropped to much in conjunction with proper harvest to stabilize the standing crop in the proper range? Assuming of course the pond is not at or to close to biological carrying capacity.

Also the converse , harvest by net, fishing or trap of classes which are to abundant.

Have you found that these work with YP and or SMB ?

ewest, Adding fish is one option. Often removing additional AND appropriate sized fish to free-up more forage food items will result in a rapid filling in of the gaps in the fishery. Standing crop will quickly adjust toward a carrying capacity of the present environmental conditions. Proper harvest of appropriate sized and numbers of fishes is always an important mamagement task to achieve ones goals for the fishery.

Thanks, Bill.

You mentioned:
"Rarely do ponds have more fish than the owner thinks are actually present."

That whole concept fascinates me in regards to what we see vs. what is actually in the pond.

I'd appreciate it if there's any more detail you can add to that comment when convenient.

Sunil, My comment of - "Rarely do ponds have more fish than the owner thinks are actually present." was based on my oberservations of pond drainings and renovations. Owners usually say what happened to all the fish I put in there; "we never saw very many dead ones".

Ewest- you mentioned: "harvest by net, fishing or trap of classes which are to abundant. Have you found that these work with YP and or SMB?"

Yes those methods work well for reducing numbers of YP & SMB esp in smaller ponds. However ther are numerous types of traps and nets. Also different types of fishing can be used to target various species and sizes of fish.

Bill, the reason I ask is that I wonder, after reading your initial comment, if there were any non-scientific metrics relating to the populations of fish that you can actually see in the water compared to how many fish you cannot see, like a ratio.

This is basic, but something like "if I can see (3) LMB in a 10'x10' area of two foot depth, I can assume that there are roughly X LMB in 1 acre."

I see a lot less fish in my pond this year than I have in many previous years, however, there are acres of water area that I can't easily observe even from a boat.

The first two years I had my pond, I could sit on the shore at one point where you are looking down on some 10' water, and this big LMB would just slowly cruise by everyday around 4:45PM in the summer months. I could never get it to hit anything including shiners, but I feel the bass was very healthy as it was about 22 or 23 inches long, and very "football" shaped.

So when you mentioned about pond owners having a good sense of what is in their pond, I was very curious.

Although my experience isn't as great as Bill's, I've seen ponds drained more than a dozen times. Every single instance the number of fish wasn't as great as the landowner would have thought.

My friend Jeff Jackson who is a fisheries biologist has told me that when they electrofish ponds there have been a lot of times that the landowner was certain there were no big LMB, but then found some almost every time--presumably cannibals or smart secretive fish that weren't being caught.

Mr. Jackson also told me that there is a ratio for number of fish found dead after a die-off vs. how many actually perished. I think the number was 1:4 or 1:5.

That being said, I'm much more interested in what Bill Cody has to say than anything I've got fluttering around in my own head.

So Bruce, what should one basically conclude from your first two paragraphs??

Just kidding. That fish kill ratio is pretty interesting and your whole reply is the kind of stuff I was fishing for.

That he claims to have a friend? :p

Make that 2 friends at least. Count me in as one.

Bruce hope you have had a good day.

Me too - actually I've shared a day on Lake Texoma with Bruce - that's when you REALLY get to know someone...

Have a goodun' Brice...
Lookin' forward to PB convention to put faces on names of other PB friends.