Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Pond holding water...success notes

Burgermeister- So you think an inch drop every 2 or 3 days is acceptable? At that rate you would lose 1.5 foot of water per month and 4.5 in 3 months (which puts my pond basically dry) just to put it in perspective. Granted that is not counting rainfall back into the pond but for last two summers we've went months on end without rain so i'm expecting the worst. I think something around 1/4 inch or less every 2 to 3 days would be more acceptable. Any experts on water loss and evaporation?

I'm no expert, but I think I've read in numerous places that up to an inch a day due to evaporation is normal in hot climates (I'm in Kansas)

Evaporation rates will vary. One thing you can try is put a bucket in the pond and weight it down. Mark the water level on the outside of the bucket (should be about an inch from the top)and then fill the bucket with water until it is level with the outside. Watch it for 24 hours and see if the water level inside the bucket is lower than the outside level. Or buy and evaporation pan....not cheap.

Here is a general estimation. http://www.grow.arizona.edu/Grow--GrowResources.php?ResourceId=208
That is about 1.5 inches per wk annual average in the southeast. I have read posts about humidity being high, etc.
Actually, logically, when humidity is low, as this time of year when fronts come thru and humidity drops and wind howls is the worst time. Probably 1/2 or more inch per day. Also, following this logic, Arizona has over 100 per year. Aeration also causes evaporation(but I love aerations effects).

Also, as Otto has quoted many times...all ponds leak. You need to
1. have sufficient watershed for the area
2. a way of replenishing the water
3. keep the biomass low enough to withstand the drop in water
volume.

thanks burgermeister. Real handy link.

Very interesting link Burger. I've been looking for something like that. I've never accurately measured it but I can tell you from general observation that DIED's pond and my pond can definately drop an several inches in a week due to evaporation, probably more. DIED would be able to provide a more accurate number I'm sure. Both my pond and DIED's have dropped 6-7 verticle feet in a year, last year my guess would have been closer to 8 feet. So evaporation, depending upon where you live, can play a major role in pond shrinkage.

So I have a question for Otto or Theo - or any other expert out there on evaporation. When you look at this website for example - in SW NY where my pond is I am somewhere between 35-40 inches / year of evaporation. However - I have a hard time believing in the Months of N-D-J-F-M - really seeing how you get any evaporation since we usually have snow up to our yin-yangs (that's a technical term I think.

In any event is it legitimate to think of that evaportation chart in terms of maybe the 7 drier months? In which case - I should expect a number that is closer to an inch / week. 40 inches over app 40 weeks?

Any ideas? Just curious.


JL

FWIW I think you're right. Evaporation will be maximized when it is hot, dry, or windy - get two or three of those and you will lose the most water.

Even a frozen pond will lose some water (ice) to dry air via sublimation (think of that old ice cube tray in the back of the freezer slowly becoming empty), but it will be at a very low rate compared to open water evaporation.

Hey Cheezy 1963,
Any results so far? You applied the product on Saturday the 23rd, right? Talk to us!

Sorry Mykol, all the talk about evaporation almost made me forget : )

So far it is hard to tell. My first application of 4 gallons was on May 23rd. As of this morning, it looked like it may be slowing the seepage just a tiny bit but it is hard to tell. There was no major change like I was hoping for.

I went ahead and put the remaining 8 gallons in this evening and belkins456 will be happy that I actually managed to get some of the stuff on me. I must of had some on my hand when I decided to wipe the sweat off my forehead. That was a big mistake. The more you wipe, the more it seems to clone it's self.

I would expect to see some visible results within a few days if this stuff is going to work. If not, I won't be purchasing anymore and will move on to plan B....installing a toe drain and pump.

JL, regarding evaporation, starting in July look at the sky. Those clouds are my ponds evaporating at high speed and heading your way. I'm at the 100 inch per year level.

cheezy1963- That's hilarious! I told you that stuff was super slick and you are right the more you try to wash it off the more it clones itself and becomes even slicker! I'm going to buy another gallon just for gags and pranks! I forgot to tell you in last post it made my hands so slick that my wedding band slipped off my finger without my noticing while washing them off. I noticed the next day it was gone and freaked out! I calmly didn't alert my wife and went back to pond and walked around it for an hour or so until by mere luck I walked right upon the ring in the tall grass! I mean it was a needle in a haystack but somehow i found it. Man I was relieved!

I will have to add that i honestly feel like my seepage has slowed down greatly! We just had a 1 inch rain today so it's back up quite a bit. This should be a nice test to see how quick it leaks back down or if it even does. Keeping fingers crossed!!

You're lucky belkins456, I would have been shot on site after loosing my wedding band.

Glad to hear you feel your seepage has slowed. So far, I have not seen any noticeable change in mine. But then again, it has only been 24 hours since my last application. I did notice that the water visibility went from 6 inches to 9 inches.

I called and talked to Doug at Pond Doctors today and he did mention one thing that may help this product seal if you have a failed attempt. He said apply dusted clay or bentonite during the application of the DB-100 and the materials "clump" while in suspension and settle, then swell hopefully in a point of leakage. Also, he recommended placing an inlet barbed "y" fitting in the suction hose of your pump. The pump suction hose is placed in the pond and siphons the product, which could have the volume regulated by a valve in the hose between this fitting and the DB-100 container. Then just tug the discharge hose around to disperse the mixture. Good luck,please keep us posted and I plan to order mine soon to give it a try!

Well, I would think that I already have enough suspended clay in the water to help things out. Visibility was like 5 inches when I started and that was all clay. I saw major floc/clumping while applying the product. Seems like if the product/DB-100 doesn't really get into the ground at the point of seepage, then it really wouldn't work long term.

I did something similar to the "y" fitting with my setup. I just drilled and taped the suction connector and inserted a 3/8 barb fitting which was the size suggested for a 3 inch pump. Ran a line to a valve and then into the DB-100 container.

Notes: Start the pump with the valve closed and then open it once the water is flowing. The product is real thick and flows pretty slow. Think I was going through about 4 gallons an hour with the valve wide open. Make sure you don't open the valve when no water is flowing. It will suck that stuff into the pump and stop it up. That is what happened to me. Took a while to get it re-primed.

Still waiting on the magic to happen : )

Hey, just wanted to throw our product in the ring. ESS-13 has been used for many years (about 50 actually) to seal up leaky lakes and ponds. It's manufactured by a company here in Phoenix, AZ (Seepage Control, Inc.) and is shipped all over the world. Typically seepage reductions from a waterborne treatment can be 60-90%. The effectiveness does depend on the actual source of the leak. It you have a bathtub drain at the bottom of your pond, you're probably not going to see great results.

You can check out the product, case studies, etc. at http://www.seepagecontrol.com . Another heads up...It's a commercial product used in large ponds and lakes so the pricing may not fit a small pond owners budget. If anyone has any questions though please call or email. Vance C.

thanks Seepage Control. I spoke to your company several times and can say that they have been very nice and helpful. But as you mentioned, the product is very expensive and out of my range which is the only thing that has kept me from buying the product.

I called Seepage Control this year before buying the DB-100 just to see if the price had changed but it wasn't my lucky day. There is always hope.

Update on my DB-100 application, it has been a few days since my last application. So far I haven't noticed a significant change in the seepage and I monitor the water level 2 times a day. I'll give it another week to see if anything changes.

belkins456, are you seeing any positive results of the DB-100?

Seepage control- Thanks for heads up but I checked on your product already as well. For the price I was quoted for your product I could have purchased TWO .20 mil PVC Pond liners and overlapped them. Seriously I really could have! It just seemed ridiculous considering at that kind of price I was still taking a risk and not getting 100% results. I would be curious to see a sample of your product though and compare apples to apples to the DB-100. I just don't see how one product can be so wildy expensive compared to the other. I realize you get what you pay for in this world but sometimes there are outrageous markups as well. Thanks again for your info and you seem to have a great product...i'm just not sure how anyone can afford it?? :-(

Cheezy1963- I can definately notice a difference. For one my pond has cleared up beyond belief. All floating alagae or organics are completely gone now! (Hopefully they are down on pond bottom plugging leaks) We had a nice rain a couple days ago so the pond went back up almost foot! So far knock on one it is showing no signs of seeping back down as it normally would by now. I believe at minimum I have greatly slowed down the leak and if it continues to show signs of sealing you better believe i'll spray 6 more gallons in it! I'll be using a trash pump this time though of course! :-) and i'll be leaving my wedding band at home!

This is getting fun. The problem of seeping ponds is about the most asked question when the phone rings.

Price is always big part of the equation when we decide what to do or not do.
PLEASE KEEP US POSTED.

Well, I "think" I'm starting to see some good results. I have no more standing water on the north side toe of my dam. I still see some standing water on the west side toe but the amount is less than a week ago. Seems to be working but just taking a little while. I guess that makes a little sense because the dam would be saturated and I have a pretty wide area of seepage.

Now I say "think" because there are a couple of factors that kind of have me wondering if it is really working. 1) I've lost just over 3 inches of water since my first application of the DB-100 on May 23rd. The water level drop could be reducing the water pressure on the area of the seepage. 2)It has been very dry and evaporation could be making a bigger impact on the water standing at the toe of the dam.

Will be interesting to see if I start seeing more seepage again at the toe of the dam when the water rises. fixmypond suggested that it would not hold the seal when the water level changes.

I will keep monitoring the seepage and see what happens. Wish I could give more exact feedback one way or another but I'm just not seeing real clear results like belkins456.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I think it's great that you've already had a chance to weigh ESS-13 as an option (that means I'm doing my job :)).

It is unfortunate that the pricing didn't work out though. I don't know how big your ponds are, but we are typically a savings over plastic on our commercial projects. We don't usually see people using 20 mil PVC because it is not as durable as the thicker liners. Even with the more costly 30 mil and 40 mil PVC liners you have a product that deteriorates over time. We have many customers that have used our ESS-13 to repair/replace an existing PVC liner, sometimes just 5 to 10 years after installation. An ESS-13 liner is designed to be a permanent solution.

I also don't really know anything about the DB100 product. However, I do know that ESS-13 has many years of development and refinement behind it. I also know that for as much refinement as we've done there are a multitude more soil types out there, creating endless possible combinations. Each year we know more about the product and where it is most effective.

Fixing a leaking pond usually comes down to a combination of expertise, knowledge, and the right products. Seepage Control is a good balance of all three. Our people have been traveling the country for many years helping people with their lake and pond issues. We’ve also observed and then improved upon the use of our products. Every lake seems to be a little different…

I wish you guys luck with your ponds and please know that we are here to answer questions and help out however we can. You can email me directly at vance@seepagecontrol.com and probably get a faster response. Have a great day!! VC

Hello all,New here and found this site by searching the web for a way to fix my pond leak.I had my pond dug 3 years ago and just don't get the proper amount of run off.And it is leaking which doesn't help.It is about .75 acre and I was dumb enough to have it dug right in my back yard so I have to look at the half empty hole all the time so believe me I feel you guys pain.I am getting ready to get some bentonite this week and try the sprinkle on the water way to use it.It has took 3 years to get my pond half full so I really don't want and cant afford to drain it and have it worked on.On the back side of my dam from about a foot up there is about a 10 yard wide wet spot and water standing in the field just below it so I am assuming my leak is through the dam someplace in that area.I have never heard of this liquid product your talking about so I am very interested in your results.This bentonite is my last straw.

ymurf- Welcome to Pond Boss!

I totally understand your frustration. Good luck with the bentonite! Since you at least think you know where the leak is that should help with your chance of success. Keep in mind that if you don't have the proper runoff the pond may never be full even if you fix the leak. I'm beginning to wonder if runoff may play a role in my problem as well?

YMURF, welcome to PB.

I have never heard of anyone fixing a leak using Bentonite by the sprinkle method. I've tried it twice and it just floated to the bank.