Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose What do ya'll think?

My lake, pond, mud hole or whatever you want to call it (6-7 acres) was stocked on April 15. I ordered 4500 CNBG, 1500 redear, and 30lbs FHM. When the fish truck got there, Clint, the guy stocking it said that they threw in an extra 1000 or so CNBG since they couldn't separate them or something like that. I said, hell that works for me. Anyway I'm looking at a healthy population of bait for the bass when they get here. They should be here later this month at the rate of 375 LMB 1/2 northern, 1/2 floridas, with 300 CC also.

How do these number sound to you pros?
And is there anything that I can do to help the CNBG along?
When should I expect to see significant growth out of them?
The fish that I can see from the shore look bigger than when they were stocked but then again who knows. There is plenty of structure for all and I even noticed that the FHM have already spawned because I saw itty bitty fish no longer than my pinky nail swimming in the shallows (Not tadpoles).

Any suggestions on anything?

Oh and those diving swimming water birds (cormorants i think) don't react very well to accurate fire from an AR-15!!!

Jake B :

Tell us what your water looks like. Does it have a green tint and what is the visibility ? If the visibility is reduced by muddy water then say so and tell us why and how long. Good water fertility/quality is the best thing you can do for your small forage fish. One other thing which would help is supp. feeding if you are so inclined. Your #s look good assuming they all are or will be 2in. fish (fingerlings) when stocked.

Jake B,

Not a "pro", but practically a neighbor.

Your numbers look "textbook" to me, very consistent with the standard recommendations by Texas A&M and the SRAC. You asked about growth of CNBG,. They benefit from artificial feeding, if you are inclined to do that, and will grow much faster, quicker.

The only thing I would suggest, assuming your stocking plan meets your objectives for the pond, is 1) to add Tilapia to the mix for additional forage for the LMB yet to come and 2) to consider adding a few grass carp as a preventive measure against the development of too many pond weeds.

Just about every pond in our area develops algae and weed problems at some point. The Tilapia will not only provide great forage, but also take care of algae and take the predator pressure off your young CNBG. They are one terrific tool for the pond owner/manager.

A few grass carp won't hurt anything and will help keep weeds from getting out of control....if/when weeds do get out of control, it takes lots of GC (15 to 20 per acre) and sometimes chemicals to control....and you can end up in a cycle of too many GC (almost as bad as too many weeds) or too many weeds. I try to avoid that circumstance by finding a balance of a few GC which will not eliminate all the weeds, but keep things in control.

Just one more comment...those diving swiming birds you mentioned are what we disrespectfully call water turkeys. I'm surprised you still have any at your place because they normally are gone from around here by mid-March...but they always return hungry in the fall. The management plan you have described for them sounds appropriate to me.

Not a tilapia expert so I have a question.

Here is the thought process.

The 2in. LMB that will be stocked around June 1 will be feeding on plankton , tiny bugs etc. and not the CNBG/RES stocked in March as they will be to big for the LMB the first 6 mths at least. If the tilapia are stocked currently at 2 to 4 inches then they will also be to big for the new LMB to eat. By Aug or so the LMB may be eating tiny tilapia fry (born in July/Aug) if they could get them from the parent tilapia without being attacked. So by the time the tilapia die from cold temps. only the smallest new yoy tilapia fry from Aug. on will be a possible extra food source for the first year LMB (if they can get them) and the BG/RES base would not have been impacted by the LMB anyway. The tilapia would have taken up room in the pond and eaten some of the plankton which would have otherwise been available to the BG/RES (don't know how much). Assuming first year pond FA and plants are not a problem or factor.

Here is the question.

Does it make sense to and do hatcheries recommend stocking tilapia along with the first year stocking of 2in. BG/RES/LMB (initial pond stocking) as described above or are they a second year on stocking strategy to add to the forage options. Any thoughts or info or tests/data on this very specific question . I am not addressing normal tilapia use as additional forage in existing ponds with fish populations, only initial pond stocking .

EWEST,

You raise a very good question. If the LMB are that small, i.e. 2 inches, then waiting a year on the Tilapia would certainly make sense from a forage standpoint, assuming there are no algae concerns.

I very successfully stocked Tilapia in a newly renovated pond at the same time as adding app. 6 inch F1 LMB. The LMB growth rates were outstanding and Tilapia offspring were controlled as was the algae.

If these are 2 inch fry, then stocking Tilapia would not offer much forage benefit, but if 6 inch LMB, my limited data point would suggest the forage benefit is well worth it.

As you stated, algae considerations also come into play...even in a new pond, in my experience.

I stocked Tilapia once in a completely "predatorless" pond and the results were still worthwhile for me in terms of pond algae control and overall pond health....the downside was a large fish kill at the end of season that was quickly cleaned up by nature's clean-up crew.

Thanks. I would think that if the predators were big enough (6 in. LMB for example) to benefit from the tilapia and their offspring it would be worth the effort and cost. If someone stocked 6 in. LMB and 2in. BG as an initial stocking they better do something to account for and offset the loss of the future BG forage base. In normal stocking #s that would be a plan for failure as the BG would be eaten to the point of no return and they would have to be restocked as 4-6in BG in time for the first spawn.

Folks,
To answer your questions:
The LMB and CC will be 2-3 inch fingerlings. I'll probably stock Tilapia next spring and will look into GC. Don't you need a permit for that?

Vegetation consists of flooded grasses and some aquatic grass. I noticed a few cattails (one small stand) have popped up in one area. I'll keep an eye on those!

The water has a healthy green tint to it. Visibility is at around 18 inches give or take a few. I put 24 tons of lime in the lake a few weeks before stocking. The water had a ph of 5.2 and an alkalinity of 14ppm. (all that damn pineland) It is now at around 6.9 and 28 ppm alkalinity. I have some filamentous algae growth in the creek area but no where else in the lake, it seems to be disappearing as the water level rises. Since February the water level has jumped enormously. It should fill all the way up if we keep getting the rain we have been.

Regarding the CNBG; I have to hold off on feeding since I don't live out there yet and don't want any feeders to disappear. However the water is full and I mean full of aquatic bugs and such. Yesterday I saw several fish hit the top of the water going after bugs.

Oh and when the Water Turkeys come back, I'll be waiting.

I just heard back from the fish guy regarding my LMB and CC. The LMB will be fingerlings and the CC will be 4"-6". Will this cause a problem and will the CC destroy my LMB and CBG populations?

The 4 to 6in CC will not be a problem as they will not be big enough (mouth size) to eat 2-3in. BG or 2 in LMB in any large #s. You could add a few more (200) BG if you are worried as that should cover any first year loss to the CC. The water sounds good for initial fish growth.

JB,

The link below will take you right to the grass carp permit:

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications..._grass_carp.pdf

I had another thought to throw out for your consideration...and I've never been able to do this myself because of lack of patience...the thought being to wait another year or at least until fall for the predator stocking. The theory behind the wait is to give your forage chain a chance to really develop before you bring in the predators. DD, on this forum, frequently advocates a pond environment where the forage is so numerous, the LMB only has to open its mouth to feed. I only wish I had the patience to take the time required to establish that kind of forage base. If you have that patience and can wait, the long term benefits may be worth considering.

ML, patience is a virtue; or so I'm told.

Jake, since killing water turkeys is illegal under federal law without a depradation permit, I think we can safely assume that you were only firing warning shots.

When was your lake impounded? Assuming that you are like the rest of us and get in a hurry to stock fish, it seems a little sudden to start getting cattails. Of course, I don't know as much about ponds in your area as I do the ones in North Texas.

In my opinion, the CC will start off eating the fatheads.

Also, I'm not a fan of stocking grass carp until you see a weed problem developing. JMO.

The problem with waiting until the second year to stock any predators is the potential to have a stunted BG population which will eat small 2in LMB and could greatly impede any later LMB spawn to the point of no recruitment. It is a balancing act. Of course you can avoid this by stocking larger predators the second year but you have to put in enough to get rid of the BG overpopulation or the LMB spawn will be very low if at all. Also if you put in enough larger LMB to do the job, once they have reduced the stunted BG then they are short on food.

I like a lot of initial forage (heavy with various types) and to initially under stock LMB by 30%. I am not brave enough to wait till year 2 to stock LMB predators as that is difficult to do and have good results. I think a better approach would be to put part of your initial BG in as 3-5in BG at the start (along with the other fish) and reduce the #s of 2in BG some. This way you have the 3-5in BG spawn in mid summer and the new LMB can feast on the yoy and FH with out impacting your initial forage base while it gets established. The following spring before the BG spawn you will already have 3 year classes of BG ( the initial 3-5in. ones now 6-7in, the first 2in ones now 4-5in and the remaining first year yoy now 2-3 in.) and well fed one year old LMB able to spawn. This may not work well in Northern ponds as you can't be sure of LMB spawning at one year of age.

There's an interesting article in the current issue of PB that deals with the question of waiting on stocking the predators...three years is recommended for northern ponds, as I understood the article. After three years of no predators in our area, I can't imagine what the pond would look like....but worse, how I would feel about all that time the predators could have been growing.

ML :

Found the article. Thanks. Now I know why I did not recall it. It is talking about 3 years before LMB start feeding on the forage and 2 years before stocking them. But it is only using FH , GShiners and crawfish. No BG. I was thinking 3 years for BG - how odd. In a Northern pond it would be an unusual recommendation to put in BG and wait until year 3 to stock predators. The exact opposite of what I have read. Interesting article. The most interesting point was that it would end up as a LMB pond sustained by LMB forage. The base of FH , GShiners and craws would be consumed down to near 0 levels. Also he makes a point of describing why he does not care for BG - stunting. Up north they apparently have a much higher potential for BG stunting and this is repeated often in the BG studies on population dynamics.

I wonder why he did not just use BG with the other forage and add a couple cold water predators ,in addition to the LMB, like musky and YP. Surely they would thin the BG during cold water when the BG are slowed down. He did note that concept for thought.

That point struck me as interesting also. Growing up in the North (anything north of Dallas is the North ) folks were always concerned about BG stunting and I often read about it on other sites.

Here it is completely different. I can't remember the last time I intentionally removed BG from my ponds(and then only for eating) and have never seen stunting as described in the north. Even in the presence of very large numbers of BG, increased by years of Tilapia stocking, I do not see stunting of BG...universal rules aren't all that universal when it comes to ponds.

While there are scientific principals at work there are no absolutes about ponds except they require water - as Bill says it all depends.

I appologize for getting of topic but I must say BG can indeed stunt up here in the North. I have read lots of theories on the cause. Does anyone have this report or anything similiar? Thanks

"Ehlinger, T.J. 1994. Assessment of the importance of the onset of sexual maturity in relation to bluegill stunting. Report to the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources"

Folks,
Thanks for the info. Patience is one of the virtues that I have in short supply on this subject. I think it'll work out one way or another. Ya'lls advice is awesome!

Oh and Dave, they were warning shots!

The lake was impounded last summer. It was an old wet weather creek that was expanded and then damed up. It has a clay bottom and in what I call the flats area it still has the creek channel with stumps, brush etc (all under water now). There is a ton of structure and terrain features in that area so all I had to do was add structure to the big part of the lake. I'll try and post some pics asap.

As a matter of fact Bob Lusk will be meeting me on my place on May 11 so that I can pick his brain. Can't wait for that!

The cattails came from across the road. There is a moist area where there are a few growing. I reckon they washed in with the rain. I was surprised to see them too. Things grow fast in this part of East Texas and I mean fast. You should see my pastures! Rain does great things!

We normally don't stock tilapia during the first year of a new bass pond, mainly for the reasons described above by ewest. As long as the bluegill/redear/fatheads are doing their thing, there shouldn't be a need for tilapia the first year.

HOWEVER, we have stocked 3" bass in tilapia production ponds on the farm and seen growth to over 1 lb in 6 months time, so I know that bass can and will gain benefit from small tilapia in their first year.

Keep in mind that tilapia spawn as early as April in this part of Texas, and we stock bass out as early as mid-May at a 2"-3" size, so the timing is good for new bass fingerlings to eat small tilapia.

Todd :

I assume the 3in LMB in the tilapia ponds were eating the new tilapia offspring not the brood fish. Any evidence of the LMB when small 3-4in getting beat up by the parent tilapia? Did most of the LMB survive to 1lb? Was that 1 lb. up to the point of the cold induced tilapia die off or past that time? Do you think the #s in the production pond made a big difference ?

I realize the answers may not be known. I am thinking as I go about of the possibility of a FH replacement or augmentation method by stocking adult tilapia with the FH , later in larger sizes BG/RES then LMB.

Todd,

I only have one data point on this discussion of whether or not appropriate to stock Tilapia simultaneously with young LMB in the first season. One data point does not an approach nor theory make....but...

I stocked your F1s (Tigre) last spring at the same time as stocking your Tilapia in a brand newly renovated pond. I have documentation of 1.25 pound LMB as of a month ago(RW of 1.4). My memory is that those F1s from you were 4 to 6 inches at stocking, perhaps I'm wrong about that? The pond absolutely thrived with the Tilapia present. None of the adverse effects whatsoever that EWEST warned about above, only positive.

The difference between 4 inch and 3 inch that you have stocked with Tilapia isn't much, IMO. Again, one data point does not a theory make, but if I had it to do over again and had 3 inch LMB, no question I would stock Tilapia with 3 inch LMB...2 inch LMB I don't know, but Tilapia provide so much more than just forage alone, I personally probably would do that also unless there was hard evidence that bad things would happen.

How long does it take a 2 inch LMB to reach 3 inches, 4 inches? We have your evidence that at 3 inches things are okay and my 1 data point evidence that 4 inches is more than ok to have Tilapia present. If we are talking July or August to be at 3 or 4 inches, then seems like it would be worth a try. The only downside I see is a fish kill larger than one would have if the LMB were larger to start with.

Yep, I would probably do it, if it were me. I would stock the Tilapia at a reduced stocking rate with the LMB, but I'm a risk taker, especially when the potential rewards are great and the negatives are not catastrophic.

I have a predator that was eating tilapia fry when it, the predator was 2". They coexisted quite well up until about the 2" size. The predator also occasionly ate pellets until it started eating fry, after that they were never seen again at feeding time. The tilapia were stocked 10 months ahead of the predator, so there were lots of fry when the predator started feeding on them.

Rad :

What was the predator ? I am surprised that it did not show up and munch on the grazers at feeding time.

Ewest: The one acre pond was stocked with 20 lbs mozambique tilapia, then 3" bass after I verified tilapia fry present. The idea was to prevent tilapia overpopulation and hence grow larger tilapia. It worked. We stocked 100 bass with those tilapia, but I can't remember how many we harvested. They were in great shape. This was one lb growth up to November, and the tilapia died from cold exposure just a few weeks afterwards. Numbers of bass in the production pond were adequate for tilapia population control and good growth. This may not work with other types of tilapia...I know the Aureas are more aggressive.

I too have thought it would be a great idea to replace FH with tilapia, and have actually made that recommendation for some folks. Good or bad or indifferent, you'd still have a large tilapia die-off in the spring as bass would probably have a hard time keeping up.

We stocked fish for Jake B, and he called today to order some tilapia. I talked him out of it I think, but only because I think it may not be necessary if the existing baitfish are doing their job. For Jacob, if you would like to try stocking tilapia with your bass fingerlings, try 2-3 lbs per acre. Remember, it's all about the pond....not so much about the fish....like Davidson says.

ML, in this F1 pond have you stocked any other forage than tilapia...?The results sound quite reasonable.

A 2" bass will eat live fish, tilapia or any other. I would have to assume that results with smaller bass and tilapia would also be outstanding, but could very well be wrong about it.