Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site New member, New pond, maybe Old question...

Hello all! I was very pleased to find that there was a site dedicated to ponds. This will solve a lot of questions going through my head...or create more...

Anywho, my dream as a child was to have acreage with a log cabin, a couple of ponds, horses and dogs, no neighbors, etc... My father never fullfilled that so alas I must.

My wife and I bought 45 acres in lower Michigan (near Decatur). There are several lakes in the area and the water table is pretty high according to the local health department. (I went to pull a permit for septic and well and I require an above ground septic since they claim the water table is at 2 feet! Of course they are wrong because my potential bilding site is at the highest point of the property which would mean I would have a lake already at the lowest point).

The soil is different at various parts of my property. I have sandy loomy soil higher up to muckesh type in the lower end. At that lower end if it rains it holds water pretty well especially when my drainage ditches haven't been cleaned out for 40 years. And those ditches (if they were cleaned out) drain into a water inlet (which runs on one side of my property) to one of the lakes. I read a bit on this site and it was said that you need a clay bottom to hold water because you can not depend on a water table. I'm just not sure how far down and if there is a clay layer down below. I figured having a 10 to 12 foot depth on one end and a long shallow (3'-4') on the other end. Just need to know what I need to do first.

Funny though, since I had a baby girl 7 month ago and I'm more into getting this going now for her than I was for myself. I swore I wouldn't sell my lifted wrangler and rolex but I did and am about to buy a 4WD backhoe.

Which leads me to my next question. I went to a few auctions and for some reason backhoes went up in price and I'm talking used ones like 15-20 years old. Then put 4WD and an e-hoe on it and now your upper teens and more. I finally came accross a deal on a 1989 JCB 1400B erops 4WD backhoe. I was able to negotiate the price down to 10K. From what I have seen that's a darn good price for a 4WD backhoe that's 16 years old. It has no e-hoe but I believe that one has a 15'-16.5' dig depth (I don't plan on digging that deep anyway).
But I never operated a JCB and know nothing of them. I hear good things nothing bad just that i'ts a little harder to get parts because there are not as many dealers around for them as there are Case and Deere. But I do prefer to have a 2 lever control for the hoe which this one does have and the big plus again it's 4WD. Do you guys have any thoughts on JCB's? For that matter can I depend on a backhoe to dog the pond out without going through the expense of getting someone with an excavator in there to do it?

Sorry I wrote the length of a book above but I wasn't sure where I was going to get help and ideas for the pond and want you guys to know what is happening and how with every step of the way.

I do need to mention that I have aireal maps and us-gov soil maps and geological surveys for the property. I am also working with the DNR, US wildlife Fish N Game, and the local NRCS. I figured their advice is free and worth listening to.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Darius...

Darius,

A delightful post...you are starting at the right time. Do it now before that baby girl grows up. Welcome to the Forum.

Regarding your choice of backhoe, it sounds to me like you have done good. The main thing is to insure that you have a parts supplier and also have someone who can do repairs, because they are inevitable. I started with a Kubota 2wd back-hoe/loader. It has served me very well indeed. I have friends that swear by the 4wd, but I'm just real careful about situations I get into with mine...still get stuck occasionally. For that you can make your next purchase a small dozer .

Not sure that you will be able to accomplish your objectives with only that back-hoe. Perhaps with time and perserverance you can. Give it a try and keep us informed of your progress.

Hi Uplander, and welcome!

Do I understand you want to dig the pond with the backhoe, or just do maintenance on the ditches?

If you have a good dam site and the right contours, you can build an excellent large pond in no time. If you have more than a fair amount of digging to do, you will need a dozer, drag line, track hoes, dump trucks, etc.

What size pond are you planning to build?

Not to worry about operating your equipment. You will become proficient within a few hours. There's nothing like owning your own equipment for motivating you to learn it.

Thanks for the welcome!

Figures I'd forget to mention the size. I would like a 100 acre pond but since I only have 45 acres to work with I'll have to start off with a half acre. Seriously, I would love 10 acres of pond/lake but realistically that's not goign to happen without truckloads of money.

I figured on starting with a half acre and little by little making it bigger. The next question is what do you do with the spoil you take out? I plan to waste the spoil on different areas of the property and raise the ground levels there. For that i will need to buy a single axle dump truck for cheap to make life easier. Of course everything is going to hapen in moderation but maybe I can figure something else to sell on eBay to buy it quicker... lol

As far as NRCS is concerned they are guiding me to the right areas to dig but to be in any pond program it can not exceed I think 3 or 4 foot depth otherwise I can dig to China if I want but not be in a program. I became sort of friends with the local NRCS guy and he's been very helpful and is working on a plan for me as we speak. I'm also planning to plant 5-8 acre of woods and put in warm season grasses. So this project of mine will be a project for a looong time. But better to start now and have it look like something 5 - 10 years down the road than not at all!

The goverment is a good source of informatiopn. They are not as dumb as they appear and since our tax dollars paid for their testing and data we should take advantage of it. But one must be careful as to not get stuck in a program that you can not get out of.

Anyway, thanks all and be sure I will be asking a LOT of questions from you.. ;-)

Darius,

As you can see by my sig, I am also in the process of digging a pond. It's a lifelong dream, and a promise to my wife, who loves fishing. Workwise, I'm about 2/3 complete. Dirt removal-wise, I'm about 1/2 complete.

So... we'll be suffering together. Yes indeed, WHAT to do with the spoils?

You will find that getting the dump truck is much easier than getting a driver for it. In the end, the only person or thing you can count on is yourself.

Are there any members that have pictures of the progression of their ponds being dug? I really mean to ask is there a listing here that shows members progression on their ponds?

Darius - Are you going with a sand filter type septic system or a mechanical system?

Darius,
I, too, am a tenderfoot in the pond game. We are both fortunate to hook up with this knowledgeable pack o' pondmeisters. There are quite a number of pictures available...I know because I can bore you to sleep with the photo albums on my website. Unfortunately, tho, the collection only gets you to the point of clearing timber for the site. Pushing dirt won't begin 'til next summer. (click "house icon" above; you can skip the blather and go directly to the "Updates" page). On this same forum, under the "New pond construction costs" thread, Ahvatsa posted a link to a great photo album for his project. Hope this link works: http://photobucket.com/albums/b165/ahvatsa/
Glad to have you aboard. I walked quite a few acres in SW Michigan looking for the "right one". It is beautiful country!

Mr. Willy I believe I will have a sand filter septic type. I haven't got any further on this since they told me that I required an above ground septic. I mean I paid and have the permits pulled which is good for a year but the cost of an above ground slowed it WAY down.

My neighbor however, had to do the same thing. He split his property in half and sold the parcel with the house on it and started to build on the wooded parcel. He excavated the basement had the foundation poured and dropped a modular on top. Since he's a retired excavator he still has his backhoe and dozer and saved big bucks doing it himself (which he's good neighbor to have when I start to dig my own pond out). Anyway, he did that sand filter so I assume I will need/have to.

Of course my wife and I are on a tighter budget hence the reason I sold my toys to be able to buy a backhoe. I figured to build a pole barn with an apartment inside but then changed my mind to a 2 story garage with an apartment/loft above that. So I requested from the township a permit for a septic for a single garage bathroom (to be legal and all) and they gave me the plans for a 1500 gallon septic tank! I can't believe it, since my neighbor had to put in a 1500 gallon too! They told him it's 500 gallons per bedroom but I claiming it's a bathroom for a garage only. They also gave me plans (per my request) if in the future when I want to build a 3 bedroom cabin that I would require another 1500 gallon septic. That frustratd me so that I put away the letter so as not to see it again. But I will need to do something this spring, sleeping in a popup with a generator going and a port-a-potty is not so good when you have a baby!

Maybe I should have just answered you quickly by saying sand filter....

Brettski, man o man I like your site! Very informative and you guys sound like my wife and I. We too looked for a couple of years for a piece of property that was a reasonable drive one way from Chicago.

Since we work and live in Chicago I wanted something I could drive to on the weekends without losing a whole day to driving. I mean propert is sure affordable in upper Wisconsin but then you're only going to visit it a couple of times a year since driving is 5-7 hours one way!

Obviously the cost of land is more expensive the closer to Chicago you are. We first stared to look at 10 acre lots then after walking that it didn't seem big enough and we switched to minimum 20 acre. We didn't want a house on it so as we could buy more land. Two years later I found 2 parcels next to each other a 20 and a 25 within our price range. It was not wooded liked we hoped but had some tree lines and and an adjacent forst and lot of overgrowth due to it was not farmed for 30-40 years. But I was able to see it how it will look in 5 years then 10 years and then 20years down the road. I decided that this was it!

It was pain at first to get a mortgage on a vacant parcel since the bank concidered that by not having a house on the property there wasn't any equitty. They wanted a huge down payment! After going around a bit "finding" some more money and getting a decent lender the seller dropped his price a little more and as it turns out the property was appraised at 15 grand over what the original asking price which added to the down payment, yeah! We closed on it December of 2004.

The week after we closed I met up with the NRCS to walk the propery and started to draw up plans. Since then I bought a trailcutter for the atv and made some nice paths everywhere. Put up no hunting signs. My excating neigbor told me about a driveway that existed to the property with a pipe under it. So he came by with the backhoe and cleared it out so you don't have to pay 200 bucks for permits and 1500 for the gravel and scraping to put one in since it's grandfathered.

Bought a Massey Ferguson 65 with a loader and 3pt hitch for the potential 3pt farm implaments that I need to prep parts of the land for the warm season grasses and tree plantings.

Funny, I tell this to people and they're like, "Boy, you got a lot of work to do! Is it worth that? I mean you just don't go there to relax but you're working on it all the time." My answer to that is a big fat YES! I'll tell you, nothing like the feeling of working your own land to get it to be the dream place of yours. I the happiest when I'm brush hogging and cutting out trails and assisting the deer paths to an adjacent farming field for feed.

I printed out an aireal map with plastic sheets on it with overlays for different parts of the project to be completed. Everytime I do something to the property I'm one step closer!

The ponds are my biggest project and the ones that are going to take the longest but it's worth it. I get all excited talking about this and wish winter wasn't here so I can do some work on the land. Heck, how korny is this? My wife and I are trying think up names to call our pice of property.. Right now we say we're going to "the 45".

We have 75 acres w/ a 6-7 acre pond in Somerset, PA. which is about 55 miles from where I live. No electricity. There are a few run-down wood structures, one of which I sleep in when camping (however, my wife would not sleep in it).

My point is that my wife & I, as well as my brother and his wife, used to camp most every weekend. We had a port-a-john there through the summers. But back in '04, we all had baby girls.

Because we don't have a house or livable structure, the enjoyment factor is way low for the property now that the kids are here, family wise. I still love the place, and maybe get to go one day out of most weekends, and still get to do some camping on holiday weekends.

There are several reasons why we have not built, but I curse myself every time for not just having pulled the trigger and built.

Uplander said: AMEN!

When we came over the hill onto our 43 acres 19 years ago, there was nothing except weeds, groundhogs, and rusty barb wire. We have put a great deal of work into our house, three barns, the pond, and a lot of other things, and I think have gotten more enjoyment and fulfillment out of it than the value of the improvements.

Sunil, if you don't quickly put in, at minimum, a small cabin capable of keeping either your or Sid's family (or better yet both simultaneously) comfortable while you enjoy your place, I will personally show up, catch all your smallmouths, and magic-marker moustaches on them.

Sunil Theo is right. You can't just drop it because of the girls. If you do that now they'll never want to go later. They need to to feel and understand that it's all good to be camping. That's how my wife was raised, she doesn't care if she has to go a week with out a hairdreyer and that's how I want to raise my little girl. This one girl I dated when I was younger concidered camping being outside all day then staying at a motel. It was God awful! 0 degree of fun...

I researched a lot on cabins and planned originally putting up one. But I figured my first priority was a pole barn and now changed my plans to the 24 x 30 foot 2 story garage as I mentioned above. I need a place for the equipment and figured to make a loft at the same time. Presently I am renting 2 20 foot storage containers at 50/month a piece till I get the garage going. They're a sore sight literally but it beats dragging a huge trailer every weekend!

Here's a link to one of the log cabin places I found.

Sprtsman\'s Series Cabin

It's the Sportsman Series and they are cool! Very attractive and doesn't take away from the outdoor affect of the property and best of all reasonably priced. My favorite that I most likely go with in a year or 2 is the McFarland Creek Series style. It has a half wrap around porch and a loft. I figure once I build my real home there this will act as a guest house then... Check it out may be perfect for your situation.

Otherwise I'm hooking up with Theo and am going to magic-marker beards on them too! lol...

Darius,

Reading your story is kind of like reading my own history. We started with a run down, abandoned 50 acre plot in East Texas many years ago. Bought tractor, rebuilt house and outbuildings, put in pond...and then "traded" the property on much larger and much better suited ranch.

Hard work is its own reward...and many people find that a foreign concept. I feel sorry for those that do.

Keep the posts coming...its fun to read them.

Hi Darius, we are from Chicago suburbs and recently sold our Northwoods cabin on the lake that we owned for 20 years so as to avoid that killer drive. Found a place in central Wisc that sounds somewhat similiar to what you have in that the water table is "2 feet" we have the mound type system as well. This place has 20 acres and backs up to 64,000 acres of Gov land so its sure private. It came equiped with walking paths, deer stands, a 3/4 acre pond. I am trying to maybe deepen the pond to 10 feet as its existing 4 to 8 foot levels are deemed to be too shallow for a decent fishing pond in central Wisc.
The soil sounds like your sandy type area and in fact the excavator that dug it out told me that even down at the 8 foot depth it was still just sand...a real fine sand. I have been hunting ebay etc for a bobcat as sand seems like it would be easier to move than clay or muck...likewise i have no experiance with this stuff. fact today, since its like 5 degrees outside i was thinking about just getting a diaphram or trash type pump with a long suction hose and just vacuum out the bottom to get maybe another foot or so
Good luck with your efforts and you have my admiration, or should i say your wife has my admiration for doing what you are doing while taking care of a new infant.
Sox fan

Darius...
Yep, sounds like the same story fer sure. The largest difference is the initiative to purchase the heavy equipment to develop. I seriously considered doing the same, but weighed it against the size of our task and the time I could give to it. Size and time won, so I hired in the pro's. Looking back, I cannot even imagine how many months/years it would have taken me on a used D-6. No regrets so far. That doesn't mean that I haven't been getting my hands dirty on all the peripheral details. My pals always ask everybody else what they're doing for the week-end....when they ask me, it's "what project are you gonna work on". I'm most happy when I'm building sumthin...always been that way. I do remember the high water table in Michigan....it was everywhere. Mound systems were fairly normal; some zones utilized 2 one thousand gallon tanks for a 4 br home.
David B...
I spent a large part of my youth in the Nicolet Natl forest near Three Lakes and Eagle River. I helped my folks build our vacation cabin just off of Seven Mile lake. It is by far my best nature-outdoors memories. It is truly God's country. My dream was to try to capture some of the wonderful memories of walking thru the forests and communing with nature without having to drive 7 hours from the Chgo 'burbs. It took us about 4 years of sometimes tireless looking, but I am still confident that we hit pay-dirt. I do envy you, tho, as you have mega timber at your back door....trees rule. Where we are, the trees kinda end at our property line, go for 80-100 acres across farmland, and then begin again in similar fashion at somebody elses property.
All in all, we share the excitement and challenges to come.

Theo wrote: "I will personally show up, catch all your smallmouths, and magic-marker moustaches on them."

Uplander wrote: "Otherwise I'm hooking up with Theo and am going to magic-marker beards on them too! lol..."

Well, you know what's going to happen next if you guys follow through with this, don't you?..........Every smallie's going to need a Pirate name.

The arrival of the baby girls is not what has stalled us from building a weekend home. The issues are more based around security and potentially increasing the total value of the property past its future selling price. We don't know if we will ever sell the place or not, and if not, then the value is only measured by our enjoyment.

What irks me more is that now that the girls are here, we are dumbasses for not having a house there! Hell, I'll probably build a place there next year anyway. Plus, I'm working on putting the second bun in the oven; I'll never get to see my pond after that if I don't build.

I just had one of those delayed-reaction brain movements that keep getting more common the older I get.

My In-Laws had their farm for maybe 20 years before they built a house on it. Way before that happened, they put a used mobile home on it, with electric service, oil heat, window AC, and the septic system which eventually was used for the house. It was a great place to get out of the weather (hot or cold) for meals, overnights, etc.

Sunil, if you could find one used, a mobile home would give you decent living acommodations for weekends & vacations without too much $ or lead time. You decide to sell the place - you sell the mobile home with it or separately. You decide to keep the place and build a nice house - you sell the mobile home when you are done.

Note: Local zoning limited mobile homes to 18 months duration at my In-Laws, so for 20 years they had a "construction shed."

Sunil, I bought a used mobile home home 7 or 8 years ago and put it on the property. Then it became a weekend place for the wife and I. I don't regret it but having 2 houses to maintain is about 5 times as much fun as having one. However, I wish I had done it years before when the kids were around.

I would recommend a trailer as an inexpensive alternative. You need to be warned that weekend time to use your property is going to be severely curtailed when kids get into weekend activities.

The other idea I failed to mention similar to Theo's, is having a motor home. In my county/township I am not allowed to have a mobile home for occupancy but they can't say anything about a motor home. Also with a motor home it is self sufficient of course depending on what kind of used one you pick up.
I missed out on a 1987 motor home for $3400. I go to this auction site:

Auction site

I had purchased a lot of tractor implements and tools and whatnot for the property for a good price! I mean if you don't physically go there to inspect you have to go by what the description of the item is or email for more info. I so far (knock on wood) have not burned myself. But a lot of motor homes go through here, some higher price range and others not.

I figured this has it's own generator, full bathroom, kitchen, sleeps 6 to whatever. All's you need is to set up a septic. I can have power run to my property but they wouldn't put it in a temp service till I had some foundation or a building site started. For me if I don't get the garage going this spring I'll be putting a concrete slab in and get a motorhome and just leave it parked there. Then dig out the septic and have the power dropped to a "temp" spot. No ordanace saying I can't have it sitting there till kingdom come (that's what I was told).

Anyway, it's an idea and less work to get it up and going so you can enjoy the property quicker AGAIN! Like Dave said, "weekend time to use your property is going to be severely curtailed when kids get into weekend activities." Obviously, it has not hit me yet but I see my friends ever weekend busy busy busy... They're either driving to soccer practice/game or hockey. Seem to be out all weekend because of games out of town. Yikes, I better really get started on my now!!

I have to tell you all this site is really great! This site has so many ideas and so much input it's hard to figure where to start... It's nice to hear other people making their dream property come true and actually seeing the process and results are fantastic! The site from Brettski and the digging process from Ahvatsa are outstanding... Neat to see it all come together. Mine obviously will not come about in a short time since I'm a poor soul but I'll have fun getting it going little by little. I'm just greatful to have a piece of property to go to with my family. I see some of my other friends and they are content just sitting at home in front of the TV watching a game. Wow! My mind is always going, what can I do, what can I get for The 45? My neighbors throwing out a couple of bikes? Well, now they are headed for Michigan so we may go bike riding there too.

Funny, I have notice that I have 2 or more of everything. Need a lawn mower here, one's out there. Chain saw here, one's out there. Chop saw here, one's out there. Tool set there but the better one's here! and on and on... I find it much easier than lugging it back and forth.

Anyway, thanks all.. Love going back to this forum to hear your inputs keepit up!

Uplander, I swear reading your posts are like reading something I would have written myself years ago.

Life is about choices. I have never regretted one second choosing the alternative weekend lifestyle....but I do have two of every tool. Makes it easier to find them once you retire and put them all in the same place. With two of everything, your chances of finding what you need are increased.

speaking of two of everything....
my 2nd set of everything is in boxes located on the second floor of the garage at my principal residence. We sold our vacation home this last summer to bring this pond property project to life. Because the new project is going to be a 3-5 year thing until any structures are built, all the "2nd's" are packed away, waiting to be re-located to their new future home. This includes all the basic required furnishings. If I ever need motivation, I walk up those stairs and sit down on that "2nd" couch and look at the stack.

Darius,

I'm jumping in late here but welcome to PB! In reference to your initial post, I can't speak for JCB equipment but I'd like to give you my thoughts on your DIY project. I've got two ponds, both excavated by a contractor. Given enough time and patience one can accomplish great things.

After my first pond, I caught the "hey I can do this" bug and bought a small dozer in preparation for my second pond. Once the reality set in that its not cost/time effective (for me) to push dirt great distances with a small dozer, I decided it was best to bring in the right equipment, a trackhoe and tri-axle dump. I tend to side with Brettski on this one and ML no doubt can back me up on the cost of repairing used dozers.

I still have my dozer and use it to clear my property and make trails in the woods, but I have no regrets about using outside help to get the ponds done.

Wow, this discussion has really gotten me down.

We bought our 50 acres when the girls were just 9. We've spent the past 9 years planting trees, building ponds and putting in food plots...all this while remodeling the entire house. The whole thing was a blast, and my girls learned what it was like to work hard because they helped me on many projects.

Both kids were in every activity known to man, and I missed more June fishing to softball than I care to think about. But, I never missed a game, a speech or a play because of the farm or house stuff. The girls are both now ending their first semester of college...and I don't have any school-related activites to attend. I am really missing it.

Seems my major projects finished just about the time their high school careers did. Damn, I'm getting depressed thinking about this. Never, ever, thought I'd say this, but...I might have to drive into town just to watch my niece...play...basketball tonight.

Yeah, you'll be busy with the kids' stuff for several years. It doesn't last that long, though. I promise you...you will miss it.

Man, how old do I sound? I'll be 42 in March...stick a fork in me, cause I'm done.

Russ,

I can indeed back you up on the costs of repairing small dozers, painfully so ....and the time it takes to build any kind of pond beyond a 1/4 acre or so.

Used dozers will require repairs, both those caused from routine wear-out and in my case at least, from inexperienced operations ( a hint to anyone reading this and inexperienced with dozers: never "pull" always "push" even if stuck).

I also completely agree with Russ that it is a time and money trade off. A pond can be built with an old fashioned pull scoop and a single piston "popping Jonny" farm tractor...I know because I helped my dad build one that way...but it takes significant amounts of time and very hard work.

Having said all that, I still have my dozer also and never plan to sell it...its just loads of fun to use it, very functional in many situations, and when used in conjunction with outside heavy equipment, can accomplish great things in a timely manner.