Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Culling BG

I have a 2 acre pond with BG, HBG, LMB, CC and Maybe GSF. The LMB have been stunted for just about the entire life of the pond. In the last 3 years I have started Culling LMB and they have responded by growing. My question is in reference to the basics of pond management. I was reading through the book and it suggested removing some BG each year to promote spawning.

In a pond that has had stunted LMB devouring all the yoy BG for so long should I still remove some BG to promote spawning or should I just leave the BG alone since I am trying to grow bigger LMB. The BG have made a great comeback since I started removing LMB.

Also, I am just curious as to why removing some BG would cause the remaining BG to spawn more. Is it caused by a hormone release in the BG. Are BG like Gizzard shad in that they will not spawn in crowded conditions?

I'm not so sure of the answer, but I would guess that there is only so much real estate in your pond for both bluegill living and spawning.

Eventually, the total carry capacity of total fish in your pond could maybe get pushed too far considering the LMB getting larger along with huge bluegill populations?

Then, maybe water quality issues would arise?

I'm quoting from memory. I'll get the exact quote and page number from the Basic Pond Management book. I was reading that last night and that statement got me curious.

Post the page and I will check it out, then give my interpretation (worth $0.02).

It could be hormonal and or social. Social crowding causes hormonal suppression, which suppresses reproduction.

Also an out of balance BG population can result in overall BG reproductive suppression through cannibalism. If the population status results in to many nests being successfully raided then the males may stop protecting the hoard and leave them to be eaten. Energetic survival - why waste a lot of energy protecting a few survivor yoy when I can start a whole new batch with the same energy output as protecting remaining the few.

This sounds like the NBA lifestyle .

Here is the page # and exact quote.

"Many states recommend removing 4-6 pounds of sunfish from your pond for every pound of bass you harvest"

"Bonus benefit: Harvesting large sunfish stimulates those left to spawn, Keeping the food chain active and dynamic."

Page 45. Basic Pond Management

My question is why harvesting Large sunfish stimulates those left to spawn?

I'll take a stab at it.

We know the presence of large male BG suppresses maturation in smaller male BG; this would result in fewer BG nests in a pond. Conversely, if harvesting large male BG prompts many smaller males to mature, the number of BG nests and hence BG fry would go up.

I can't see off the top of my head how removing large females would help increase reproduction.

Thanks for the explanation.

I was under the impression that removing the big breeder BG was bad but it sounds like removing the big bulls is good. Is there any evidence that removing large females increases or decreases reproduction of the population as a whole?

i would think it decreases it as the larger older females contain a much higher number eggs.....dont they?

Interesting. Cull the large males but leave the large females alone. I need to get better at telling male BG from female BG.

It makes sense to me that culling large females would decrease reproduction.

Is there a good thread on Identifying BG sex?

yippee skippee...one of my favorite topics..

yes there is.

ewest or theo can find it faster than i though, if its not here in the next hour so, i'll go diggin for it.

ok, try this for starters.....

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21507&fpart=2

I would like to state the provisos that 1) I was making a stab at why large BG removal might be good for forage, and 2) "Basic Pond Management" was Lusk's first book; I would want to hear what Bob's most recent thoughts are on BG removal and forage maximization before beginning any major BG removal effort.

P.S. As a big bream guy, the whole concept is Bass Backwards to me.

In about the year 2000 someone at the Illinois Department of Natural Resources published an article in Illinois's conservation magazine saying their studies indicated having larger male bluegill would promote larger bluegill specimens in a pond. When I first read it, (and shared a copy with Lusk), I thought the premise was really off base.

It indicated, since larger males select the best spawning beds (in the center away from predation from the edges, etc.), survival of offspring was enhanced by being in the better spawning spots. The theory then was that smaller males who were just reaching maturity would observe that the bigger they were when they started spawning the more likely they would be to get good sites. These maturing males would hold off of starting to be sexually active so that they would be bigger specimens when it was time to spawn again. The report did not indicate that their larger size made them more attractive to females, or just that their size and strength let them bully themselves into the best spawn locations.

I was skeptical because I had a hard time believing that the fish could "reason" like that. (Raging hormones seem to overrule reason in other populations I have observed). All of that being said it seems the above theory seems to be getting greater acceptance and many pond observers feel it is best to release large males.

Bing

"(Raging hormones seem to overrule reason in other populations I have observed)."

Bing, let's not bring Brettski into this now.

Sunil: I win the bet. Mrs. Bing thought JHAP might pick up on that and comment first, but I had confidence you'd come through.

Bing

Hopefully you won something of value, Bing!

Sunil:

In your wildest dreams.

Bing

Sunil: I think we hijacked this subject just when two different theories on removing large bluegill was just getting started. OK experts which is it, remove large bluegill to promote bluegill growth, or don't remove them to promote growth. OR, "it all depends"?

Sorry Mrs. Bing. Didn't mean to let you down. I was preoccupied with Elephant photos and whatnot.

Oh and I'm interested in the real answer here as well.

Not an expert, but my thoery would be remove large male bluegill for more spawning numbers of smaller bluegill if numbers are needed for forage.
Dont remove large bluegill for genetic reasons and, well, to have large bluegill.

cull large older males but do not cull large older females if BG production for forage is the goal.