Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose New pond---is LMB and YP a good combo?

My 1/2 acre pond I dug in October is almost full, and the ice is just starting to melt away. I am going to get 10lbs of fatheads as soon as I can.

I have two kids, 4 and 7, and want them to be able to catch fish out of the pond. They will also be swimming in the pond quite a bit. I want LMB because they are easy to find and fun to catch, and get fairly large. I have read here about HBG biting swimmers and I dont want to scare the wife and kids off.

I always see the SMB-YP combo talked about, and the LMB-HBG combo, but never a YP-LMB combo. Will the LMB eat all the YP since they dont spawn as fast as HBG?

I was thinking about starting off with about 25 LMB, 200YP, and maybe some RES. Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks

Rex:

I know that YP tend to get eliminated from a LMB/BG/YP pond unless they are periodically restocked. I think it follows that they might also need periodic retocking in a LMB/YP pond; the LMB might also be short on forage without as prolific a spawner as BG present.

On somewhat of an aside, if you could obtain regular BG instead of HBG, LMB would have much better forage and the chance of swimmers being nibbled would be decreased. As you have probably noticed, though, it seems to be hard to obtain regular BG (as opposed to hybrids) commercially in Michigan.

I wonder if SMB would grow as well as LMB on a RES/YP forage base. I am sure you can get several experienced comments here on the catchability and agression of SMB vs. LMB.

Remember that due to the aggression and fecundity of LMB (vs. SMB) and BG (vs. YP), you can almost always easily switch from SMB to LMB or from YP to BG. Not so the reverse.

It has been noted that YP may stunt if the only predator is SMB. Both BG and YP may stunt if SMB is the only predator. Harvest and feeding would help avoid that problem.

You have not seen much discussion of YP in combination with LMB because IMO the combination does not work well. It is rare to find one who has a small pond with a good YP-LMB fishery where good numbers of 4"-10" YP exist. I have done quite a bit of study and sampling of YP with the SMB and LMB in the small ponds of NW Ohio area. I have never located a pond yet where YP are truly successful with LMB as the dominat predator. I have no doubt YP-LMB combo could be done but I hav not encountered a pondowner yet willing to apply the effort to keep the YP-LMB fishery balanced. LMB always over eat the forage base of YP.


Dr Willis in South Dakota State Univ has discussed waters where he as seen good YP-LMB fisheries. But as I recall those waters are typically larger than 1 acre or more AND probably contain at least submerged weeds. I doubt you will tolerate weeds in a small pond where swimming is common.

RES are very hard to locate in southern MI. You might not even be able to locate RES in MI. PLEASE Let me know if you can find a hatchery in MI that sells RES.

Keep in mind that when YP get 6"-8" they "prefer" to be a predator. IF at that size they do not get enough to eat they almost always grow very poorly. Then staying a small size makes them more vulnerable for a longer time to predation by even bass as small as 12" long.

The best YP ponds I have found are ones that have SMB or non reproducing predators such as walleye or HSB (hybrid striped bass) as the predators of the YP.

Bill,
Your comments echo my fears as I have a pond about 2 acres with heavy LMB & HSB predation factors. A 6 to 8" YP is no match for a 16" LMB. I don't know how they have fared with the HSB, they are in the 16 to 20" range from stocking in '05. Let's just say, I haven't caught one of my YP stockers and I ain't seen no floaters.
We'll see soon.
Chip

Hi Chip,
Your YP population would be in much better shape and be able to maintain good YP recruitment if the pond had HSB as the only predators. I have seen where too many HSB can also prevent YP recritment in a small pond. I am very interested to see what YP you can catch this spring. I am pretty confident that the 15"-17" LMB find the 7"-9" YP very agreeable and tasty.

Bill,
I'd have to agree that the LMB are real happy with my latest purchase. The only floater I found after the ice came off was a nice adult crappie. The first fish I caught was a HSB; you see who was first in the chow line.
Chip

Thanks for the replies so far.

Stony Creek has a Fish Day in May in Bay City, which is pretty close to me. The only carry HBG and YP, CC and LMB.

Imlay City Fish Farm lists RES and regular BG on their site but they are not open until April 1st. They are about an hour from my house, which I think is close enough for me to transport some fish. When they open I will find out what they are stocking this year.

So RES would not reproduce fast enough to keep my YP alive? I plan on stocking fatheads as necessary to keep my fish going. If Implay City will have regular BG then I will try to get those instead.

Finally would adding a couple CC, like only 4-5, be a good idea to eat the dead material off the bottom and provide an occasional big catch for the kids?

Rex,

If I could start from scratch and I was only interested in fish for the skillet, (up north anyways) I would try HBG and YP, with just enough LMB to keep things interesting.

That's just me though. Lots of folks will beg to differ based on their objectives.

I had an existing base with lots of stunted fish so I focused on the predator development to cut the base; at one time you could walk water on my BG spawn and the bass looked like tomcats - all head and no bodies.

Slowly things are turning around and I have some fish that are really fun to catch but I wouldn't bet on YP, (under 6") if there is anything that even resembles a predator in the pond - CC included, because I had plenty of them and trotlined them out; that's when the LMB really stepped up and did their job.

That's my two cents; your mileage may vary.

Good luck,
Chip

rex:

If you have not read them, see my and Brettski's discussion threads, ending with (planned) RES/YP/SMB stocking threads.

rex c. says "So RES would not reproduce fast enough to keep my YP alive?" Yes RES would reproduce fast enough to keep YP alive but the growth rate of YP would be less than good. Imlay does carry SMB why not use them? Add fatheads and fingerling YP-RES and or maybe HBG in spring, then SMB fingerlings in fall of 08. Scratch the HBG if swimming. Fish may not get trophy sized but kids should be able to easily catch a fish. SMB should easily get to 13"-16". I think Imlay has golden shiners, stock 5-10 lbs of them also.

"like only 4-5 (catfish), be a good idea to eat the dead material off the bottom? Catfish do not eat dead muck, leaves and debris material off the bottom; it is a myth. IF they did clean the bottom everyone would have really clean pond bottoms. Catfish are primarily predators and eat mostly live critters associated with the bottom. They might eat an occassional sick dead dying fish, frog, crayfish or etc on the bottom, but if your pond has these as numerous things, your pond has big time problems.

I have read that catfish are desireable to control things like snails, dead fish, etc. If they would get out of control though I have no problem skipping them.

I dont know for sure if Imlay City will have the SMB until I talk to them on April 1. The only reason I prefer LMB to SMB is it seems like SMB are much higher maintenance and not as likely to spawn. Also I have no rocky areas for SMB to spawn on. My pond is all clay, with stumps, some cinder blocks, and milk crates as my cover.

rex. NO beach area for swimmers? Swimmers will be walking around on a mud bottom?

SMB are not more maintenance than LMB and they will spawn. Those are more myths. My neighbor has ONLY SMB in his swimming pond and the SMB spawn each yr in the 1/4" sized crushed lime stone. I am getting some good info from that pond for my articles about SMB in Pond Boss mag this year. Subscribe to PBoss mag.

Catfish will cause water cloudy problems in your swimming pond. I would omit them. You can always add them later if the pond begins to fill up with dead stuff. A good bottom aeration system will better help process the dead stuff than catfish.

Thanks for the replies Bill. I will skip the CC's.

The swimming area is not built yet, my backhoe needs some TLC first. I have plenty of sand left over from digging the pond though, so it will get done.

I will see what Imlay City has this year and get back here. I do plan on getting my subscription going too.

Thanks again

I suggest you add a small amount of pea gravel to the beach area maybe along one side of the beach in a narrow band from shore to deeper. One small truck load spread about 6"-10" thick from shore out to 4-5ft deep in a band maybe 5-10 ft wide. I think the swimmers will overall in the long term like the pea gravel better than the sand. Try the two to compare. SMB & RES will spawn in the pea gravel and to a lesser extent the sand. A small pond of your size only needs one SMB spawn each yr or two for the bass to be successful.

SMB nest with logs added.

Is that gravel in the middle? I have a bunch of busted concrete blocks that could make the encirclement like you have there.

Yes it is - see this link and add logs.

http://www.helpourfisheries.com/how_to_build_a_nest.htm

rex, yes that is pea gravel in the nest photo by ewest. The nest does not have to be that elaborate with rocks encircling entire nest. On one side of the nest just place one large rock, or 1-2 concrete blocks, or a short pile of busted concrete. As ewest's photo indicates a log or board improves nesting success. Circle of rocks helps hold gravel in nest esp if perimetrer is bare dirt.

Rex, your situation and mine are similar. I dug a 1/4 acre hole last Sept. and it is about 85% full. I don't know how good my plan is, but this is it. Asap I will put in 4 lbs of FH. If I can get 6 egg filled YP or egg strands and 6 2yr old males, they go in also plus 25 RES. If I can't get the mature YP, I'll go with 35 fingrelings and the RES. I plan to feed once a day by hand and will aereate from 8 pm till 8am. Then around Sept I will add 40 3-4" SMB and 12 3-4" HSB. I will stop feeding when I introduce the predators. My hope is that by having a YP and several FH spawns the SMB and HSB will chubby up real quick before ice on. Next May I will start to cull out about 12-15 sub average SMB. If I see too many small YP during the summer, I'll add some 6-8" HSB. If this does'nt prove successfull after two yrs. I'll just add some large BG and LMB. Good luck with your pond. I think Theo is also starting a YP-SMB this year and maybe we can all compare notes. Bob-O

Yes, I am, and yes, I'd like to

Excellent, it will be nice to have some informed and experienced input.

Bob I like your plan, though it seems like you may need more YP or RES for 40 SMB. This is will be a great summer for sure to observe and learn.

I cant get HSB in Michigan. I cant wait to talk to Imlay City FF in April.

Rex - I'm attempting a YP,LMB,BG combination. YP and Regular BG were obtained from Imlay City last spring. I actively manage the 3 ponds(daily).

The 1/3 acre pond(20' deep) was stocked with 150 3-4" YP and were up to about 7-8" by fall. 100 BG were in the same size range at stocking. There were already a "bunch" of BG in the pond. Not sure how many LMB were in the pond because they "magically" appeared after it was dug. But I do know there was a male and female . I was pulling them out all summer long. I'm trying to keep the LMB numbers in the 5-8 range to keep everyone else on the toes.....er....fins. When I see a LMB getting to the 6-8" range, he's moved to the "big pond." His fins are clipped and becomes prey. The pond was also stocked with FH minnows in the spring and fall. Shiners "magically" appeared in all 3 ponds so they add some more fun to the mix.

The larger pond(2/3+ acre, 25' deep) is a traditional BG & LMB pond. I did put 50 YP in there just for giggles without a alot of expectations.

I aerate 2 of the 3 ponds at night during the hottest part of the summer and the diffusers are at 15-18' deep.

Had a minor YP fish kill in the small pond mid summer. 15 6-8" YP floaters. Torrential downpours caused all 3 ponds to overflow. I figure a turnover occured to the very deep cooler part of the pond(below the diffuser).

Just starting the second full season with this combination and I was planning on a report once my pond wakes up. Still 6-8" of ice. Hopefully a YP spawn this year....we'll see.

Chuck

ChuckC, how do you like Imlay City FF? Are they good to deal with?