Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,902
Posts557,116
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,420
ewest 21,475
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,112
Who's Online Now
1 members (Dave Davidson1), 755 guests, and 219 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
Gambusia. From your homework will LMB and Warmouth (WM) be fertile at the same time in your area?
I looked in my limited literature and could not find any reference to WM X LMB hyprids. Ewest may be able to help with this topic if he see my suggestion. Does that hybrid exist or have they been created in the 'lab'?. Since you are trying to cross fish of two different genera (Lepomis & Micropterus), I question how many of the eggs will hatch and of those how many will exhibit some sort of deformity. Tradionally eggs of this type of cross have a very low hatch rate and when a hatch even occurs the percentages are low (0.5% to 20%). Then getting young that may have genetic problems to survive could be dicy. I am interested in your progress with this project.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/23/08 09:47 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 264
F
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
F
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 264
The reason I asked about the hormone treatment was the fact that the Warmouth is an inside aquarium fish that won't know it's spring by temp change or length of day.


Pond Boss subscriber ever since I joined the forum. Thanks Bob!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 268
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 268
Sorry, FT - that's a good question. One could try manipulating water temp and photo period to mimic Spring showing up. I have done the reverse, reducing the photo period, to try and prevent spawning behavior.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3
B
Fingerling
Offline
Fingerling
B
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3
http://www.pondboss.com/12.html

why not warmouth too? every one else is at the party!


If this does not work.... what about smallmouth x green sunfish. I think a pond full of 3lb fish that are never hook shy would be very attractive to me...... mabey i need to start an experiment?

Last edited by BigTex; 03/24/08 01:38 PM.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 315
G
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
G
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 315
The male warmouth is my fish tank.

I have turned on the heater and increased the temp to the mid 70s.

Not sure how else to get him in 'spawning mode' and produce viable milt when the time comes

I could also try to a catch a female smallmouth for this project instead of a largemouth??

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 315
G
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
G
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 315
Here is the warmouth:



Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
Gambusia - Is anyone looking for literature that a WM and LMB can be crossed?

I don't think Lepomis need to go through a cold period to become fertile. However IMO taking the fish from room temp (abt 70) to mid 70's will not get this fish's juices flowing. Temp change would have to PROBABLY go from at least a low of mid 60's and over several wks to correct spawning temp AND the INCREASING day length has to correspond to temp increase - simulating au naturale conditions.

Not to be pessimistic, but I am realistic, if this is the first time you have ever performed an artificial spawning of any fish, then good luck. This artificial fertilizing of fish, especially a non-same species cross, is not something for novices. Artificial spawning of fish (same sex or hybrid production) would make a good science fair project. However, if you have previously stripped eggs, fertilized them, and succesfully hatched the eggs, then you have a 2%-10% percent chance your project could produce a few hatched eggs. However be aware the fry from this cross could be 95% or MORE deformed. Most likely the eggs will never produce a blastula because of the unnatural genus X genus cross.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/24/08 09:48 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Sorry I missed this earlier Bill. More long-haired stuff - there is a bunch.

Note - The scientific name of Warmouth has been changed thus Lepomios gulosus = Chaenobryttus gulosus



Phylogenetic Relationships of Sunfishes as

Demonstrated by Hybridization *

F. EUGENE HESTER

Via AFS

MATERIALS AND METHODS

These experiments were conducted by using

artificial stripping and fertilization techniques.

Male fish of each species were held in aquaria

in the laboratory where photoperiod and water

temperature were maintained at approximately

that existing at the time of natural spawning.

Ripe females were seined or trapped from

spawning areas and broughto the laboratory.

If necessary, they were given hormone. in-

jections of chorionic gonadotropin as. recom-

mended by Stevens (1966) to induce ovula-

tion. Eggs were stripped from a female into

several Syracuse watch glasses. Milt was

extruded by manual pressure and was col-

lected in medicine droppers. Eggs were fer-

tilized in watch glasses. Conspecific, inter-

specific and intergeneric crosses were made.

After the gameres were mixed, a small

amount of water was added. About ten

water and the watch glasses were filled with

water. Fresh water was added about three

times each day. The eggs were incubated in a

room maintained at approximately the normal

spawning temperature for the maternal parent.

Fertilization success was measured after

cleavage was obtained and hatching success

was measured after hatching was complete.

Hatching success was evaluated in relation to

hatching of the control cross by considering

the control cross success to be equal to 100%

and expressing the hybrid cross success as a

percentage of the control cross success.

Experiments were also conducted to mea-

sure the frequency and duration of partheno-

genetic development of sunfish eggs.

Twenty-three hybrid crosses (5 interspecific

and 18 intergeneric, including some recipro-

cals) were attempted, using 11 species of

fishes representing 7 genera.



West (]968) showed

that while Micropte'rus salrnoides X Chaeno-

bryttus gulosus hybrids could easily be pro-

duced and reared, they were sterile. The cross

of Chaenobryttus gulosus female X Lepornis

rnacrochirus male was more difficult to pro-

duce and rear (there were no survivors to

fingerllng size in the reciprocal cross), but

they wcrc fertile. This indicates a closer

phylogenetic relationship between Chaenobryt-

tus and Lepomis than is indicated by hatching

success (Figure 3). Chaenobryttus gulosus X

Lepornis rnacrochirus hybrids have also been

reported as naturally occurring populations

(Hubbs, 1955; Birdsong and Ycrger, 1967)

and have been artificially produced (West

and Hcster, 1966; Childers, 1967).



Another source

TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES

(TELEOSTEI: CENTRARCHIDAE)

DANIEL I. BOLNICK AND THOMAS J. NEAR











The only crosses with total inviability in

both directions are M. salmoides X (Ambloplites rupestrus,

Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million

years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some

viability in one or both reciprocal directions (see online Appendix).

Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis

for much longer than most other taxa.



Last edited by ewest; 03/25/08 12:55 PM.















Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 268
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 268
Do I correctly deduce that Warmouths have been alternatively classified as both Lepomis Guloses and Chaenobryttus gulosus?


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
D
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
dr. frankenbusia


GSF are people too!

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
Theo -- there were papers in 1992 and 1995 that tried to use the Chaenobryttus genus. Another paper in 2002 refuted this. So, the American Fisheries Society continues to use Lepomis gulosus in its list of common and scientific names of fishes. If you actually want the citations, I can email them?


Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 268
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 268
Not necessary, Dr. Dave. I just wanted to be sure I was correctly following the different sources Eric quoted.

At least wrt the fish they are talking about. I probably don't understand what all Chamberpot gulosus is up to.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
Okay. ewest. Thanks for for the great literature search. I am learning lots of things on this one. With a 71% egg hatch rate for the WM X LMB cross in the first data set, maybe Gambusia's chances of producing the hybrid have increased. I wish him luck. He gets a big "atta boy" from me if he can get a hybrid egg to hatch. Even if he does not succeed, he will have learned a lot which is what exprimentation is all about - learning.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/25/08 08:44 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Thanks Bill. I agree it will not be easy and that is why the prior post had the "how to " and their comment - " that while Micropterus salrnoides X Chaenobryttus gulosus hybrids could easily be produced and reared, they were sterile. " .

Just in case he missed it I would suggest the reciprocal cross LMBf X WMm as it has a higher % chance from both studies 104% and 103% mean range and results in a bigger (better fish). After all we are after hybrid vigor and a sterile fish ! \:\)
















Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
ewest, I hope he is successful. I would really like to see what this hybrid looks like.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
D
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261


\:D


GSF are people too!

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 315
G
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
G
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 315
My tank was around 66 degrees until I turned the heater on a couple weeks ago. Now its about 74 degrees.

Two things seem to be holding me up right now:

1) Is knowing when the female largemouth bass will be viable and therefore have eggs readily to be fertilized. I have been told the window is very narrow

Is there a way to collect and condition a female largemouth?

2) Getting the eggs to hatch once mixing and fertilization occur. Should I use a hatching jar or set up a 10 gallon aquarium with circulation?

Any ideas on what setup would get the eggs to hatch?

Thanks

Last edited by Gambusia; 03/28/08 05:37 PM.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 53
J
JHM Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 53
Geez, now you all have the wheels turning in my punkin' head!

I was going to try some tank spawning LMB this season. We have always put them in spawning ponds,and then either removed the fry, or seined out the brood, depending on the available food.
Then we bring them in as fingerlings for feed training.

I've been in contact with some of the Texas guys who tank spawn LMB, and THINK I'm ready to go. But I may hold some and try stripping them. Just finished up with walleye and seem to have finally gotten it down, using HCG to push them, irregardless of the female's stage. (all the tubing was adding a lot of stress-now it's a shot,check at 48 hrs:if not running,same dose, another 48 hrs,and most are running). I've done them all dry the last few years, as I am usually here by myself.Check the female, if she's running, I dry her off and strip in a DRY bowl.The dry and strip males, then add water to activate, stir, deadhesive treatment,etc, Hatching pretty good this morning.

I wonder what the window is on LMB. Most of my work has been with stripers which seem to have a very narrow window. Since we are no longer making hybrids, I let them do their thing in a sytsem that simply collects the eggs after they spawn. Bouyant and non-adhesive,so works great.

If anyone has strip spawned LMB please give me a shout or reply here.

And warmouth are one of my favorite fish. Keep us posted!

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
cro, HC1968
Recent Posts
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/29/24 01:06 AM
pond experience needed
by esshup - 03/29/24 12:45 AM
New pond middle TN: establishing food chain?
by Bill Cody - 03/28/24 07:57 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by FireIsHot - 03/28/24 07:33 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 06:39 PM
Fungus infection on fish
by nvcdl - 03/28/24 06:07 PM
Can anyone ID these minnows?
by Dylanfrely - 03/28/24 05:43 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 04:48 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
by H20fwler - 03/28/24 04:29 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5