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 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
...Without adequate suspended particulate food most of the filter feeding Daphnia types probably have died. Many of the copepods are predatory grasping feeders and will usually live longer in a jar than the Daphnia types. The current community in the jar could be quite a bit different than the one you originally collected.


Until just now, that never dawned on me. That's really cool. Can copepods get stunted from out-eating their prey source? Just kidding.


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The plankton cycle. Green to brown to clearing back to green . Connect the points (cause and result) and you should have an answer Bruce. ;\)
















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Does the word "epiphany" mean anything to you? Thanks Bill and ewest.


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 Originally Posted By: ewest
The plankton cycle. Green to brown to clearing back to green . Connect the points (cause and result) and you should have an answer Bruce. ;\)


What was an epiphany for Bruce was a real head scratcher for me. But, at the risk of looking really stupid, I'll take a guess at what you mean. Just remember: "There's a fine line between clever and stupid."

Are you saying???

Green water (phytoplankton bloom) -> Brown water (zooplankton emerge to eat the phytoplankton) -> clearing water (phytoplankton are consumed and zooplankton die off) -> back to green water (reemergence of phytoplankton bloom)


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 Originally Posted By: Nebraska Chad
 Originally Posted By: ewest
The plankton cycle. Green to brown to clearing back to green . Connect the points (cause and result) and you should have an answer Bruce. ;\)


What was an epiphany for Bruce was a real head scratcher for me. But, at the risk of looking really stupid, I'll take a guess at what you mean. Just remember: "There's a fine line between clever and stupid."

Are you saying???

Green water (phytoplankton bloom) -> Brown water (zooplankton emerge to eat the phytoplankton) -> clearing water (phytoplankton are consumed and zooplankton die off) -> back to green water (reemergence of phytoplankton bloom)


I think that's exactly what he means. This is becoming a heck of a thread.


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Epiphany



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 Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
I think that's exactly what he means. This is becoming a heck of a thread.


One of the things that really propels my new found love for pondmeistering is its HUGE variability from the micro to the macro.

I'm currently engulfed in the minutia of a jar - tiny zooplankton are my fare.

Just a few clicks away, fellow PB members are rearranging earth with bulldozers, building ponds where they didn't exist before.

From my magnifying glass to Dwight's anticipation of New Overheads from satellites in low earth orbit - Pondmeistering sweeps the spectrum.


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NChad you see that was easy to figure out. For some reason I don't think the zoo stunt a % just die off or are grazed by fish and bugs. Same for phyto there #s vary based on many factors like water quality , zoo #s (all predation from zoo to TShad/grazers), light and nutrients . If the water quality and temps allow and when predation reduces then the phyto #s jump and its green again. As long as you have ray (light) and wettie (water) and nutrients (soil) something will fill the void with life. Life is the epiphany. \:\)
















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If anyone noticed my vanishing act over the last week, I was taking an immersion course in Porturalian language and culture - what a wonderful heritage!!! ;\)


Actually, the pond had to take a backseat for the arrival of my son! 7lbs, 5oz, 19.5". Mom and baby are healthy and well. Plus, the little guy was born on my birthday!

Benjamin Dawson


He's going to have a hard time catching up with his big sister though. She has caught more fish species than she's had years of life...



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Congratulations on the new spawn, NChad!

Hopefully you didn't have to do anything through the ice wrt Benjamin. \:o


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Congratulations Nebraska Chad! He looks like a keeper. Wow and born on your birthday, what a present! How is your wife gonna top that next year? Twins???


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Fab, man!

Way to go. Another Nebraska fishing license holder, eventually. \:\)


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Congratulations Nebraska Chad!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Great news NChad !! Congrats on the new family member. Is he going to be NBen or NDaw ? \:D Glad all are well.
















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Congratulations!


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Well done, Chad!


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
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ICE-OUT UPDATE:

Stopped by the pond to survey the scene. Big dead bass... \:\(

Here's what we found dead and washed ashore. What does it tell you?

LMB - 28 dead in the following lengths (all fat): 19", 19", 21", 20", 20", 18", 20", 19", 19", 20", 20", 20", 21", 20". Another 14 were roughly that same size/class, but unmeasurable.

BG - 3 dead in the following lengths: 3.75", 3.75". 1 BIG BG head that we speculated to be MA size.

Bullfrogs - 20 dead most big, some that made you say, "Wow, look at that frog!"

Leopard frogs - 2 small, 1 the size of a medium size bullfrog.


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IMO - your pond now likely lacks suficient predators and small BG will likely take over. If you figure those 42 LMB at 4 lbs a piece, that is 33.6 lbs per acre of LMB that were lost under the ice, and those are just the ones you know about, you may have lost twice as many big LMB.



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- ;\)

Could you see any on the bottom ? Why immeasurable ?

Those few BG are not a problem. That is a lot of large well conditioned LMB. Frogs are a head scratcher. Any chance of an outside event causing this ?
















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 Originally Posted By: Shorty
IMO - your pond now likely lacks suficient predators and small BG will likely take over. If you figure those 42 LMB at 4 lbs a piece, that is 33.6 lbs per acre of LMB that were lost under the ice, and those are just the ones you know about, you may have lost twice as many big LMB.


The 28 dead bass include the 14 others... sorry for the confusion, Shorty.


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ewest,

5 or 6 of the 14 bass we couldn't measure had been munched on. The remaining were piled up on the last sheet of ice a little too deep to wade out to. It was clear that all 14 were that same 20" class of fish though.

We didn't see any fish on the bottom as you asked.

If it was an "outside event" I don't know what it might have been???

Also, as Bruce suggested way back at the beginning of this thread, there is a mat of FA on the pond bottom.


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Wow! You guys took a big hit. That's really sad, but it opens up new opportunities.

I had a pond a couple of years back that I stocked with about 100 bluegill that I had that were extras. I just wanted it to be possibly a kids fishing pond the next year. When the ice came off I saw two dead fish. We ran a seine about a month later (this pond was just 1/14 of an acre at the time) and found ZERO remaining fish. The rest had decomposed after dropping to the bottom.

It's very possible that you've had a catastrophic event with the bluegill even though you're not seeing fish at this time. It may be that you're just seeing largemouth because their body mass led them to be floaters.

Actually you may be better off if you lost a lot of the bluegill. They'll recover quickly.

The fish you're seeing is certainly consistant with your initial observation of this being a "stunted bluegill pond". The bass that were dominating, like those twenty-inchers were feasting all the time, and the bluegill were probably present in the tens of thousands as smaller individuals. In my opinion, not a very good setup for overall fishing success. You'll be able to do it better!


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Consider the big picture here. What came first the chicken or the egg. My concern would be that a primary cause of your stunted BG pond is its tendency to have large winter kills. That may be a major factor in its cycle of going from stunted BG with few LMB to where it was just before this event (stunted BG with a fair # of good LMB). Now it is starting the cycle over.

If that is not consistent with your goals then you will have to deal with the winter kill propensity (determine why [to cold or low DO or both]and how to stop or limit it).
















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Great thoughts here!
The chicken or the egg really got me thinking...

If low DO is the problem, what are some possible solutions?


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We were able to electrofish the pond and the news wasn't good. Nothing but small bluegill, thousands and thousands of tadpoles, and a handful of fathead minnows. Not a single largemouth bass or anything else. We did see a large carp swimming 10 feet off shore. If the kill I posted above wasn't the last of the bass, there aint many left and they're on their way out.

Age and growth data on the bg won't be available for awhile, but we have the info we need to present the owner with a list of options. Basically the pond needs adequate DO levels throughout the year and an alteration in the fish population to achieve a desired fishery.

To that end, I need some help from you guys - the experts. If you wouldn't mind, check out my quick sketch of management options below and let me know:

A. Rough (very rough) price estimates for each approach.
B. If I'm missing anything.
C. What you would do. \:\)


Option #1: Install an aeration system. Stock 10 inch or larger largemouth bass to bring the bg population under control.

Option #2: Transplant aquatic vegetation to decrease algae blooms and the subsequent die-off and DO sags. Stock 10 inch or larger largemouth bass to bring the bg population under control.

Option #3: Chemical kill the pond (5 acre pond, average depth unknown, max depth 20 feet, 9-12 feet common). Install an aeration system. Stock free lmb and bg provided by game and parks.

Option #4: Chemical kill the pond. Transplant aquatics to decrease algae blooms. Stock free lmb and bg provided by game and parks.

Option #5: Drain the pond. Transplant aquatics. Stock free lmb and bg.

Option #6: Drain the pond. Install aeration. Stock free lmb and bg.


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