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The hybrid bluegill myth
#106821 02/04/08 09:42 PM
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Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 02/04/08 09:46 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Cecil Baird1 #106831 02/04/08 10:51 PM
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Is that a current article, Cecil?

Perhaps the author should be invited to the forum?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Sunil #106835 02/04/08 11:02 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Sunil
Is that a current article, Cecil?

Perhaps the author should be invited to the forum?


I don't know. Can't seem to tell.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Cecil Baird1 #106839 02/04/08 11:55 PM
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Dr. Robert Hayward is an icon in his profession. His knowledge of sunfish, their biology, habits and genetics is probably tops in the field. I'd love it if he were occasionaly on the forum, but he's a very busy guy. Thanks, Cecil.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Bruce Condello #106843 02/05/08 06:13 AM
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Very interesting website. Thanks


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Dave Davidson1 #106857 02/05/08 08:41 AM
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That's a very good write-up on HBG vs BG.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i582.photobucket.com]
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Theo Gallus #106876 02/05/08 10:22 AM
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I would like to see the research to add it to what I have on the subject. I will look and if I find it I will let you know.

Nothing new in that report. I agree in general but you have to read it closely as it contains assumptions and conclusions that could lead one astray.

One point in comparing HBG and BG and the size comment . Keep in mind that with HBG you are measuring near 100% males but with BG half +- are females which has an effect on the size outcome. HBG sellers say HBG grow faster/bigger which is right vs. a BG population but , as noted not right (faster/bigger) than an all male BG comparison. Other data indicate that in general in ponds HBG have an initial faster growth rate but that BG soon catch up.

The experts on this subject note the real hybrid vigor is in their aggressiveness as noted in the report above. HBG have their uses/place in pond mgt. but it is limited. They are not a replacement for BG.

Thanks CB1 for the info.
















Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
ewest #106885 02/05/08 11:20 AM
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One key point of information in this study is that they were raised separately in tanks and fed regularly. In a pond ecosystem containing both species, which do you think will grow fastest? The more agressive species with the biggest mouth. Because of this, the myth isn't a myth. It appears its only a myth in a controlled laboratory setting. Nonetheless, these are interesting findings with applications for those wanting a monoculture.

In a pond, all things are not equal as with a controlled laboratory study.



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Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Shawn Banks #106889 02/05/08 11:34 AM
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Well, I think that fella needs to read about DIED's pond since he thinks sunfish can't get more than half to a full pound.


Water dries, rocks crumble, and trees die. The only thing that is eternal is the reputation we leave behind.
- Ancient Viking Proverb

Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
ezylman #106891 02/05/08 11:38 AM
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 Originally Posted By: ezylman
Well, I think that fella needs to read about DIED's pond since he thinks sunfish can't get more than half to a full pound.


Very true. My personal opinion is that if most folks could raise GSF that reach a pound then the GSF would be a much more sought after fish. I can tell you from personal experience that a large GSF hits like a freight train and pulls like a Mack Truck. However that is my personal opinion and it's remotely possible that I'm very slightly baised.


JHAP
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...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
jeffhasapond #106951 02/05/08 08:02 PM
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Piketon Research Facility a branch of Ohio State Univ. is also currently studying the growh rates of HBG and BG in a controlled setting with aquaculture for food production as the goals. I suspect the results will be similar to all those discusssed above. Bottom line is both fish have some benefits. As always one has to determine their goals and then stock and MANAGE appropriately.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/05/08 08:05 PM.

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Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
jeffhasapond #106957 02/05/08 08:27 PM
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Shawn do you have the study ? I did not see those conditions mentioned in the article. It says " Additional research has shown that both bluegill and hybrid sunfish grow well under similar conditions in ponds." .

Here is what I found.

NOTES: Use of Compensatory Growth to Double Hybrid Sunfish Growth Rates
ROBERT S. HAYWARD, DOUGLAS B. NOLTIE, and NING WANG
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society
Volume 126, Issue 2 (March 1997) pp. 316322
DOI: 10.1577/1548-8659(1997)126<0316:NUOCGT>2.3.CO;2
[ Abstract ] [ PDF (715K) ]


Testing Bioenergetics Models under Feeding Regimes thatElicit Compensatory Growth
Gregory W. Whitledge, Robert S. Hayward, Douglas B. Noltie, and Ning Wang
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society
Volume 127, Issue 5 (September 1998) pp. 740746
DOI: 10.1577/1548-8659(1998)127<0740:TBMUFR>2.0.CO;2
[ Abstract ] [ Full Text ] [ PDF (57K) ]


Effects of Social Interaction on Growth of Juvenile Hybrid Sunfish Held at Two Densities
Ning Wang, Robert S. Hayward, and Douglas B. Noltie
North American Journal of Aquaculture
Volume 62, Issue 3 (May 2000) pp. 161167
DOI: 10.1577/1548-8454(2000)062<0161:EOSIOG>2.3.CO;2
[ Abstract ] [ Full Text ] [ PDF (59K) ]


Improvement of Bioenergetics Model Predictions for Fish Undergoing Compensatory Growth
Gregory W. Whitledge, Przemyslaw G. Bajer, and Robert S. Hayward
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society
Volume 135, Issue 1 (January 2006) pp. 4954
DOI: 10.1577/T05-003.1
[ Abstract ] [ Full Text ] [ PDF (36K) ]


A Combined Multiple-Regression and Bioenergetics Model for Simulating Fish Growth in Length and Condition
Przemyslaw G. Bajer and Robert S. Hayward
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society
Volume 135, Issue 3 (May 2006) pp. 695710
DOI: 10.1577/T05-006.1
[ Abstract ] [ Full Text ] [ PDF (193K) ]


Application of Discrete Choice Models to Predict White Crappie Temperature Selection in Two Missouri Impoundments
Przemyslaw G. Bajer, Joshua J. Millspaugh, and Robert S. Hayward
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society
Volume 136, Issue 4 (July 2007) pp. 889901
DOI: 10.1577/T06-122.1
[ Abstract ] [ Full Text ] [ PDF (141K) ]



Last edited by ewest; 02/05/08 08:41 PM.















Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
ewest #106973 02/05/08 10:16 PM
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Here's the actual study:

Hayward, R. S., and H. P. Wang. 2006.
Rearing male bluegills indoors may be advantageous for producing food-size sunfish. Journal of the World Aquaculture Society 37:496-508

The study makes significant contributions to the aquaculture/food production side of things. What irks me is the tone of the press release. The author of the press release is a regional biologist with Missouri and should know better than to extrapolate data from a lab study (with specific goals) and merge it with a farm pond scenario. This is misleading and confusing to the common pond owner- who just happen to be the target audience of these types of press releases.

Interestingly, I was never under the impression that fast growth by hybrid bluegills was a myth. Like Bill said, both fish have their place. This press release took an ounce of information a delivered a ton. From a scientific standpoint, you just can't do that without mentioning assumptions and telling the whole story.



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"Imagination is more important than knowledge" Albert Einstein
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Shawn Banks #106978 02/05/08 10:46 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Shawn Banks
Here's the actual study:

Hayward, R. S., and H. P. Wang. 2006.
Rearing male bluegills indoors may be advantageous for producing food-size sunfish. Journal of the World Aquaculture Society 37:496-508



That's funny. I'm already trying it, but nobody wants to talk to me. ;\)

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=6061&Number=55868#Post55868


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Bruce Condello #107033 02/06/08 09:28 AM
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We have both HBG and BG in our lake. Looking at the fish stocked in 2000, there are a couple of very obvious differences.

The HBG are bigger than ANY of the BG. The BG range from 8 1/2 to 9 1/2 inches while the HBG range from 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 inches. Obviously, the HBG are much more colorful.

That I can see, there has been NO successful reproduction by the HBG even though I commonly see them on nests and with fry.

I stocked HBG again in 2003. These fish are now about 8-9 inches long. As has been stated many times, the HBG are more agressive than the BG.

We have some GSF/pumkinseed naturally occuring hybrids. So far, I haven't seen any special growth of these fish.

For us, the HBG are a non-reproducing "species". We use BG to provide forage and then use the HBG as a fast growing, agressive and very pretty pan fish. I hope to stock more of them this year.


Norm Kopecky
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Norm Kopecky #107192 02/07/08 01:39 PM
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Norm,

Where have you been? I was thinking about you the other day. Haven't you been posting much or have you been in categories I don't normally go to?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Bruce Condello #107193 02/07/08 01:43 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
 Originally Posted By: Shawn Banks
Here's the actual study:

Hayward, R. S., and H. P. Wang. 2006.
Rearing male bluegills indoors may be advantageous for producing food-size sunfish. Journal of the World Aquaculture Society 37:496-508



That's funny. I'm already trying it, but nobody wants to talk to me. ;\)

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=6061&Number=55868#Post55868


No one wants to talk to a cutting edge rogue Frankenstein scientist. \:D

Bruce, I will be doing what you are doing and with some of your bluegills. Can't wait to document the results! Thank you for being my inspiration along with Bill Cody!

Shawn, Bill, and Norm,

Good points. I guess I just don't like the hybrids. To me they're ugly (just my opinion of course), and most of the fish producers push them in my region vs. regular bluegills. What irks me is they fail to tell the pond owners they will not adequately provide forage for their bass. And of course they exaggerate the size potential. Then there's the hype with that one fish from that particular producer that will remain nameless in that southern state. I have a friend that fell hook line and sinker for that one and I can't tell him any different. Funny thing is my bluegills have always been bigger than his.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 02/07/08 01:47 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Cecil Baird1 #107196 02/07/08 02:28 PM
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In my experience, comparing fall of 2002 stocking of BG to a spring '03 stocking of HBG, by the spring of '06 the Male BG were 1" longer than HBG but the HBG were heavier. Sizes of both species were inconsistant somewhat unexpectedly with the HBG, their size varied from 7" to 10". In 2006 I would catch about 1 HBG to every 2 BG even though there were 10 times as many standards. This confimed others observations that HBG are more aggressive. I was using a very small trout hook so I don't think bait size was a factor. Last year I caught far more standard BG than HBG, more like 20:1, probably due to BG reproduction. I also caught 2 HBGxBG crosses confirming that HBG do interbreed with BG.

This F2 is likely no more than 3 years old and is about 6.5" long





"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Ryan Freeze #107219 02/07/08 10:18 PM
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Ryan interesting you mention the backcrossing between HBG and their parentals (BG). There is uncertainty within the published fisheries science studies on if that is possible several studies say no , other Fisheries Scientist think it can. Several of us have made calls to the top lepomis fisheries scientists genetics . We have no final answer yet.
















Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
ewest #107331 02/08/08 10:27 PM
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 Quote:
Many northeastern Missouri ponds with these characteristics have bluegill or hybrid sunfish over 8 inches long (about one-quarter pound), but stories of half-pound or one-pound sunfish of any type are exaggerated.




Last edited by Nebraska Chad; 02/08/08 10:28 PM.

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Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Nebraska Chad #107470 02/10/08 07:29 PM
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Cecil, so many other things happened this last summer that I didn't work with the lake much or visit the forum. It's good to be back.

Last week, I ordered 100 HBG 6-7 inches long for $1 each. For me, it isn't either/or for HBG and BG but rather I want both. I'll give a bunch of BG away to make room for the HBG


Norm Kopecky
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Nebraska Chad #107551 02/11/08 11:19 AM
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"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Norm Kopecky #107559 02/11/08 01:07 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Norm Kopecky
Cecil, so many other things happened this last summer that I didn't work with the lake much or visit the forum. It's good to be back.

Last week, I ordered 100 HBG 6-7 inches long for $1 each. For me, it isn't either/or for HBG and BG but rather I want both. I'll give a bunch of BG away to make room for the HBG




Gosh I hope nothing bad happened. Are we going to see you at the convention again this year?

Glad to have you back!


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Cecil Baird1 #107795 02/13/08 09:43 AM
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Cecil, I had arthroscopic surgery on both of my knees the week after the conference. Unfortunately, it didn't work as well as I'd hoped. So in August, I had both knees replaced. Rehabilitation has taken longer than I'd hoped also. My knees are certainly much better than they were and I'm very thankful that I had the operation. During rehab, I could see what other people were going through and I'll take my little aches and pains any time.

It was fun running around with you at the last conference and I sure hope we can do it again at the next one.


Norm Kopecky
Re: The hybrid bluegill myth
Norm Kopecky #107817 02/13/08 01:28 PM
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Yep I sure hope we do too. My wife may be with me too. You too can discuss war stories (knee surgery). \:D


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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