Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Feeding Fish removal, feeding, new genetics(F1), add cover

I need some help on my lake. I bought a 12 acres lake in NE Oklahoma last year. I want to increase the number and size of the big bass. We have been tagging all bass over 2 lbs. We have been using Fishtagger. (http://www.fishtagger.com/tagsadvanced.php check out the link and search for Paradise Lake under location). This is all the fish we have caught over 2 lbs. Almost all of the bass are over 3 lbs with a max of 6 lbs 1 oz. We tagged 21 fish with a total of 44 catches. We have caught some fish 4 times. I have caught the same fish the next day in the same spot with the same lure. There seams to be a gap from about 1 lbs to 3 lbs. We rarely catch any fish in this size range. The majority of the bass we catch are around 1 lbs or less. We are going to start recording the number and weight of these smaller fish.

The property was previously owned by an older couple that never fished and did not let anyone fish the lake, EVER. They watched it like a hawk. I remember wanting to fish there as a kid.

I believe the water quality is good. The water is dark dark green with, I would guess, 12-18” of visibility. During last summer there was a slight water color change to a little greener with small little green suspended specs. These did not cover the water like I have seen in some lakes but it was like a slight cloud it the water.

The water depth runs from 1-2’ shallow water at one end to about 30’ at the dam end. We have virtually no cover. We did a lot of worm fishing and would rarely get hung up. We also have steep banks and shallow banks on both sides. There are a few coves and peninsulas. (I am trying to post an areal picture).

There is good vegetation along the entire bank. I would be lying if I told you what it its. But it grows all along the bank in up to ~4’ of water and grows up out of the water about 1-2 feet. It is very leafy and has a strong fiberous stem.

I are thinking about removing bass 12” and under and removing around 500 lbs of this size range. I also want to start feeding with 3 feeders. It seams like the 15 min rule is common (feed enough for 15 min of activity). I would also like to stock Florida or F1 bass to help the genetics. This pond has not been touched in 30 years. I am also going to be adding some brush piles or other forms of cover.

So my action plan is to 1. Remove 500 lbs of 12” bass (maybe less) 2. Start a feeding program (3 locations for 15 min of activity) 3. At some point stock Florida or F1 bass and 4) add cover.

Please advise on this action plan. My main concern is that 500 lbs is too much.

Great job. Very interesting. I'm going to take the liberty of posting a "clickable" link.

http://www.fishtagger.com/tagsadvanced.php

Type Paradise Lake in location field.

I would give you an excellent answer, with links to all sorts of highly technical stuff that would make Ewest proud of me but I'm not gonna because I have pond envy.



Oh sure rub it in.

Welcome to Pond Boss Ok! Hang on for the expert opinions!

Welcome to PB OK 12.

OK 12 have you had the lake surveyed to establish the various fish populations balance. Catch rates are good but don't necessarily provide all the info needed to make the right decisions. Taking out 25-30 lbs of small LMB per acre is a remedy for a lake that is LMB over crowded. Do you think that is your situation ?

You may be to far north for pure Fla. strain LMB to do well. F-1s would probably be ok to enhance the genetics.

You can look here for pics to ID the plant. http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/database/index/visual_id_emergent_plants.htm

What types of fish are in the lake other than LMB ?

The green color in summer sounds like a plankton bloom which is good. It is the base of the food chain.

I removed the other post with the same question as it would get confusing with the same one going in two locations.

There are also crappie and perch. I call them perch but we have caught different kinds of perch / sun fish. I don't know much about them. We can catch them one after another off of the dock. The previous owners said there were catfish and grass carp. I have seen a few grass carp. I have not tried to catch any catfish.

What is the going rate for a survey? I assume it is an electro shock survey.

I looked at soeme pictures and we also have bluegill.

A couple of thoughts that are, at this time, only thoughts.

Since this water has never been fished, you are catching pretty naive fish. That will change as you keep educating them.

On culling smaller bass, you haven't said whether they are a problem. If you have a plentiful forage base, I'm not sure that I would mess with them. They are your future. What size range are the bluegill/perch? Can you identify the different types?

It doesn't sound like the vegetation is a problem.

I agree that you are missing an age class on the bass and it MIGHT be the variable spawning habits of the crappie. Tell us more about the crappie numbers and sizes.

Regarding adding more bass: If you do it, you should probably add bass of at least 10 inches. The number one predator of small bass is larger bass. I'm not sure that you would get a return on your investment. Enough of them to make a positive contribution could get really expensive in a 12 acre water hole.

If it were me, and it's not, I would PM Bob Lusk regarding an analysis of the place. He's pretty good at this stuff. I would take no action regarding a solution/game plan until I knew my current situation. At this time, I'm not sure you have a problem.

Small bass- I would say there is defiantly a disproportional amount of small bass 12” or less. Last spring and summer was our first full season of bass fishing. The entire season we caught 19 fish over 3 lbs (caught of couple of them 4 times each). We did not keep track of small fish. But there were days my dad and I would catch 30-40 bass each and they would all be 12” or under. We are going to start keeping track of every fish we catch (length and weight).


Crappie- We defiantly have a lot of crappie. I have taken my son and his friend and I could not fish because it took all of my time keeping minnows on the boys hooks. We have only caught crappie in a couple of places but then again we have only crappie fished in a couple of places. I think we pulled in 40 something in an hour. Nothing real big. I would guess they averaged about 10-12”. Every once in a while we would catch one close to 2 lbs. Our lake record for bass (6 lbs 1 oz by my Brother) was actually caught of 4 lbs test line and a minnow with an ultra light real while crappie fishing.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m82/mmhinson/2007-03-25AndrewHinson6lbs1oz22long.jpg

Bluegill/Perch size- We can catch Bluegill/perch all day off the dock. I would say the average was around 6” long. I will try and get some picture of some of them. I caught a 4 lbs 8 oz bass with my fly rod that had the tail of a bluegill / perch sticking out of its throat. I could fill and see it in the bass’s stomach. It had to be over 8” long. Here is a picture of it.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m82/mmhinson/2007-04-27MattHinson4lbs8oz19long00.jpg

ok-12 look under your other thread, but my rate is $600 plus travel, includes lots of info besides fish and comes with power point presentation, hope that helps. That is an agressive harvest plan, you do relize that wll take some effort. I only wish my clietns could understnad that. Unless the lake is fertilie it is probably too many pounds. No biggie though if you stick with size limit then you will know when getting close b/c the bass will get difficult to catch. The more agressive the better the growth rates on those left and the better the spawn the next year.

Still not sure I see a problem. You are loaded with both too many predators and too much forage. It sounds like a balanced pond to me. I would personally keep every small crappie I caught.

ON the crappie what we have seen also is a reduction in bass recuritment in their presence. You ned to clearlly define your goals. If quality bass Yes remove bass (maybe not quite so many), and harvest all the crappie caught. Release most bluegill back into the pond.

You need to findout avg size of bluegill, avg. size of crappie, Wr of bass, and % of bass of certain size classes. With this info you are more up to speed on recommendations.

Here is more data on my Bass. We started using Fishtagger.com in August of 2006. We tagged 11 fish in 2006. Of these 11 fish, we caught 5 of them again in 2007. Here is a summary of the data on the last catch in 2006 vs. the first catch in 2007. I am an engineer so I love data.

Bass #2500 (up 16 oz and 1”)
09-30-2006 (3 lbs 8 oz; 19”)
03-08-2007 (4 lbs 8 oz; 20”)

Bass #2503 (up 9 oz and .25”)
08-28-2006 (4 lbs 7 oz; 19.75”)
06-02-2007 (5 lbs 0 oz; 20”)

Bass #2506 (flat)
09-01-2006 (5 lbs 0 oz; 22”)
09-01-2007 (5 lbs 0 oz; 22”)

Bass #2511 (down 2 oz; same length)
09-28-2006 (5 lbs 2 oz; 21”)
06-02-2007 (5 lbs 0 oz; 21”)

Bass #2501 (down 7 oz; up 1”)
03-30-2006 (3 lbs 11 oz; 19”)
06-04-2007 (3 lbs 05 oz; 20”)

Of the five fish, two gained weight (16 and 9 oz), one was flat, and two lost weight (2 and 7 oz). Is this data typical of an overpopulated pond? I would assume in a perfect world you would be expecting all the Bass to get bigger.

On all the other bass we have caught multiple times, I have also notices a downward weight trend as the summer passes. Is it common to see a downward weight trend as the summer passes? This could explain the reason for the two fish that show a weight gain. The 2006 catches were in Aug and Sep while the 2007 catches where in Mar and June. Same for the one that lost the most; 2006 catch in March and the 2007 catch was in June. The one fish that was flat was actually caught on the same day in 2006 and 2007 (Sep 1st is Bass #2506 unlucky day).

I am trying to justify (to my self) my decision to remove a certain amount of bass 12” and under. I am thinking of going with 360 lbs of bass removed (12 acres * 30#/acr) instead of 500 lbs, until we get an electrofishing survey to better define the population distribution. Even 360 lbs of 12” bass is going to be hard to do with a line and pole. That is two 12” bass a day for 6 months. That adds up quick. I am also going to start removing all crappie (both by fishing and if and when I do an electrofishing survey).

Another fact I am using in my justification is that on average (41 catches over 3 lbs) we average 85.9% of the Standard weight. Is this percentage of standard weight an indication of over populated bass? I am using Length^3/1600 for my standard weight calculation. Of course this is data is only on our larger Bass. We will start this year on gathering data on all bass caught. Is this the correct formula for Standard Bass weight? Should we start recording girth?

I am just getting started in the Lake Management for big Bass. For the last 1-1/2 years we have been released all bass. I also just ordered the “Raising Trophy Bass” by Bob Lusk. I am looking forward to reading it.

Time of year can easily be a factor as you noted. LMB are heaviest pre-spawn (March+-). They lose weight during the spawn and gradually gain weight over summer and fall. Depending on location they can lose some weight over winter.

Use length and weight and the standard RW chart. Knowing if the RW ( 86%) was consistent over all size classes would be a good fact to develop. If one size is more under weight than others it indicates a food shortage for that size and thus potential stunting.

My guess is that you are a little LMB crowded . I would suggest that pending a survey and better data across all sizes that you cull some small LMB and all crappie . Take out LMB at a rate of no more than 20 lbs per acre of LMB 8 to 12 inches.

Instead of removing small 8-12inch bass, cut their caudal fin off and toss them back in the water so they can give back to mom.

Todd and others,

I'm glad you mentioned the caudal fin specifically.

I've been culling many of the small bass at my mom's place by cutting the dorsal fin AND both pectoral fins off (and sometimes the anal fins too), thinking it would have the same effect of making the fish swim awkwardly and end up an easy meal for the larger LMB and BIG CCs.

My last trip out, I decided to keep a few of these 10" culls for the grill. I caught and strung about 12 of them, not really paying much attention to them other than making sure they were cull size.

For anyone who fillets fish often, the motions become very habitual. After about the 8th fish, I was getting distracted by something else (can' remember what it was). Without even looking at this one particular LMB, I reached down with my left thumb, as I always do, to flip up the pectoral fin so I could start the fillet knife behind the operculum.

I thought something was odd when my thumb didn't hit anything. It was only then that I looked down at the fish. It had NO pectoral fins and NO dorsal fin! It was one of my "culls" that had lived at least 6 months since my last attempt to end its life. It apparently was doing well enough to hit a spinnerbait.

The moral of my story: I'm keeping all cull LMB for the grill/frying pan, or I'm cutting the caudal fin COMPLETELY off so as to avoid this happening again.

Good point.

If you cut into the vertebral column at the base of the caudal fin and get blood flow then I feel that fish won't live long anyway.