Pond Boss
Posted By: mbj4ksu Tiger Muskie - 10/05/18 01:32 PM
I've done some reading here and elsewhere about Tiger Muskie to "cull" lmb. My pond is only 1.5 acres or so. I can't get to it as often as I would like and my relative weights are telling me I'm not culling enough small bass. Has anyone had direct experience with them in a similar scenario? Is my pond too small? I would consider 1 or 2 Tiger Muskie and would certainly enjoy catching one from time to time.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/05/18 02:17 PM
I'm in the middle of a couple experiences like yours. Just last week I stocked 2 TM in each of 2 ponds that were just under an acre. My biggest concern in the lakes that I stocked them in is water temp exceeding that which allows TM to survive in the summer. So that would most likely be a concern with your pond as well considering you are south of me. Unless you have spring fed pond with cool water refuge in the summer. Where are you located in KS? You may be able to drive up and get 1-2 TM from me.
Posted By: mbj4ksu Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/05/18 03:16 PM
I live just south of KC but my pond is another hour south of that. What is the upper temperature tolerance for a TM?
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/05/18 04:37 PM
I’ve researched that quite a bit but can’t get a definitive answer. I believe it varies according to size with larger tiger Muskie needing cooler water than younger smaller tiger Muskie. From people I’ve talked to and according to State of Nebraska stocking plans pure strain Muskie tolerate warmer water than tiger. And I’m fairly certain there’s 0% chance you’d have to worry about reproduction. So that may be a better option. In fact it’s probably a better option for both of us. But I wanted to play around with TM for a few years before moving on to pure Muskie.

Side note: I did have a northern pike, the least warm water tolerant of the 3, survive up to 37” in my 2/3 acre pond. That pond does have a deeper section than my large pond, but it does make me hopeful that tiger Muskie can survive.
Posted By: mbj4ksu Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/05/18 06:10 PM
Hmm? Maybe I'd better dig deeper. My pond has pretty steep banks and gets to about 14' deep over a good portion of the total area of the pond. I'm not sure where I could source them from. It's a long drive from Nebraska back to my pond. We get up to Omaha a good bit. It's probably 4.5hrs from Omaha to my pond.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/05/18 06:57 PM
Agreed Corey - of the Esox NP have the least warm water tolerance, then TM, then Muskie. Makes sense when you review a map of their native ranges - NP are common from Northern NE all the way up to the Artic, but Muskies Northern range, like SMB, seem to end about 50-100 miles over the CA border. I have read about Muskies in TN and KY reservoirs which also host SMB populations and they routinely grow into the 40-50 LB range. If I were stocking TM into a small BOW in KS I'd set my aeration diffusers in 3/4 max depth in order to allow a thermocline to establish and provide cool water refuge during the dog days of Summer while still allowing for the benefit of aeration. I harbor concerns depending on Esox species to manage LMB populations as they will also hammer other species - I'd recommend angling to cull/manage LMB especially in a small BOW, it's easy to catch 25-50 LMB daily between a few anglers. TM aren't worth the risk due to the impact on entire fishery, IMO...plus fishing is a lot more fun!
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/05/18 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: mbj4ksu
Hmm? Maybe I'd better dig deeper. My pond has pretty steep banks and gets to about 14' deep over a good portion of the total area of the pond. I'm not sure where I could source them from. It's a long drive from Nebraska back to my pond. We get up to Omaha a good bit. It's probably 4.5hrs from Omaha to my pond.


I'll get you a couple if that's the route you choose and if I have a few extra. But its 3:45 to the KC airport for me. So 5 plus to your pond. Tigers are hard to source. I believe I saw a website with some pure strain in Missouri. I'll look to see if I can find that again.
Posted By: mbj4ksu Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/07/18 03:06 PM
Thanks for the input guys! NEDOC, let me chew on this and get back to you if think I want to give this a try.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/08/18 11:59 AM
Here's the website with pure strain advertised. They also have pike, which is interesting.

http://www.harrisonfishery.com/speciesEcoSys.htm
Posted By: Quarter Acre Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/08/18 01:39 PM
I can put in a good word for Harrison's. I went to the fish farm last April to pick up my HBG, HSB, and RES. Kurt (owner) was good to meet and deal with. He is very personable and you can tell he enjoys what he does. I do not think that the HSB were breed/raised at his farm. I would be willing to bet that the more exotics for the area are not as well. I would call them and ask, he may even offer a recommendation for a farm closer to you. I think they make a heavy percentage of their income delivering fish, not so much the small guy like me showing up with some barrels and a pick-up truck. Therefore, they work closely with other farms which allows them to offer more species as they can pick up species that they do not carry on there way to/from a delivery and store them in their stock tanks for the customer.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/08/18 05:27 PM
I'll be honest, even though it could be a mistake in managing your pond, I'd love to see you stock a few tiger muskie. Selfishly, I just wanna see more small pond management experiences in muskie management. I think tigers would be a better option for one reason only..... they're easier to catch. So if they aren't working to improve your pond it should be easier to remove them.... In theory.
Posted By: mbj4ksu Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/10/18 01:48 PM
I'm tempted NEDOC. It would be an interesting, albeit small, case study.
Posted By: adr Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/26/18 05:45 PM
belonged to a club in northern Colorado that stocked a couple dozen tiger musky and the walleye and perch population exploded in size and carp all but disappeared. Most of the people fishing the pond used 6 or 10lb. test line and most fish broke off.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/26/18 06:14 PM
Thanks adr. Anecdotal observations like that are great to hear. Crap removal is my main objective.
Posted By: Bocomo Re: Tiger Muskie - 10/27/18 04:09 PM
If you are close to KC you should call Shawn Banks. He’s a Pond Boss approved guy in Polo, MO.

http://midwestlake.com/about-us/
Posted By: masterbasser316 Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/07/19 04:54 AM
NEDOC, how is your experiment going? mbj4ksu, did you end up going forward with TM? If so, how is it working out? I am just south of KC and thinking about it as well for my 4 acre pond. Is anyone else experimenting with TM?
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/16/19 01:27 AM
Originally Posted By: masterbasser316
NEDOC, how is your experiment going? mbj4ksu, did you end up going forward with TM? If so, how is it working out? I am just south of KC and thinking about it as well for my 4 acre pond. Is anyone else experimenting with TM?


Mine has probably gone as well as I could’ve hoped for. I released a couple in my buddies pond and he caught each of them once this spring. I put 11 in my 15 acre pond but haven’t caught one yet.

I purchased 30 plus again this spring and I’m feeding them tilapia presently. Amazing how much easier I’m making it on myself this year just by knowing the steps.
Posted By: masterbasser316 Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/16/19 02:46 AM
Thanks for the update NEDOC. Where did you get the Tiger Muskie from? Also, where did you get the Tilapia? I have been looking to get those as well.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/16/19 12:17 PM
Originally Posted By: masterbasser316
Thanks for the update NEDOC. Where did you get the Tiger Muskie from? Also, where did you get the Tilapia? I have been looking to get those as well.


I had mine shipped in from Minnesota Muskie Farms. They have been incredible to work with.

Well the tilapia I have been getting have been from the grocery store. Hahaha, I've trained mine to eat cut up strips of tilapia fillets (about 3 lbs per week for 25 TM). Here is the story I had put together last year. This year I am doing the same but with better results.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=492139&page=1
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/16/19 01:35 PM
NEDOC - to what do you attribute your better results at hand feeding the muskie this year? Experience? Anything that you are doing slightly different at the beginning of the feed training?
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/16/19 02:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
NEDOC - to what do you attribute your better results at hand feeding the muskie this year? Experience? Anything that you are doing slightly different at the beginning of the feed training?


Bill I think there are a few things that may be impacting the situation....

1) Bruce kept them in his basement both winters. The first batch he simply threw fatheads in and let them eat enough to survive. This second batch he began feeding them worms on alligator clips much like I did in the cages last summer. So they had a head start on feeding as they were engaged in our system of feeding 3-4 months sooner.

2) This season we have nearly double the number of fish in the same number of cages. So they are twice as crowded as last year. I believe they have learned from each other, or from observing more repetitions of other fish feeding. Or maybe it just creates more competition and increases aggressiveness.

3) I've kept more water flowing through my grow out pond this season. I believe my water temps stay in the upper 60s or lower 70s, whereas last year it reached lower 80s several times. I think they became a bit lethargic at those temps.

4) I only feed them every 2-3 days as that seems like the amount of time it takes for them to digest a chunk of tilapia that is usually 5-15% of their body weight. Last year I was feeding them every day. At times it just seemed like I couldn't force them to eat, in reality they probably just weren't hungry. So I think it gives me the perception they are trained better. In reality they are just hungrier and more aggressive.

I'll try to get video of their aggressive feeding. The other night I dropped a tilapia strip on the wire mesh lid of the cage. One of the TM jumped 6" out of the water and hit the lid trying to get to the tilapia. Yikes!! The next step in my journey is attempting to release them into my grow out pond and see if I can keep them on tilapia. One of them escaped and I haven't been able to get him to take fillet strips. I'm going to add slip bobbers above the alligator clips and possibly add an auditory signal (ringing a bell?) during feeding time to create stronger association that may help correlation to feeding so that I can release them into a bigger body of water and keep them on tilapia. Any ideas and suggestions how to do that are appreciated!
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/16/19 05:49 PM
All great pieces of helpful information. You have the training technique refined well for hard to teach predators. Great for sharing your information with the forum!.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/16/19 07:05 PM
I am considering trying pike and/or pure strain Muskie in a few years to compare and contrast. Last year it was a bit time consuming so I was a bit apprehensive to take on more. But refining it this year to where I only feed them every 2-3 days has made it much easier.

I just wish my large lake had the water quality for them to thrive after being released.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/16/19 09:24 PM
Corey I notice the same phenomenon feeding WE, SMB, HBCP and HSB off the dock...while the HSB seem to be ready to feed daily, the other fish, especially HBCP, will go days before showing up again. I finally figured their attendance is likely based on stomach size/digestive rates. A good sized catfish chunk seems to leave even a nice sized HBCP [16-18"] satiated for a few days and I won't see them but every 3-4 days...bigger the fish, bigger the stomach size.
Posted By: anthropic Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/17/19 06:37 AM
Is there any chance that southern bred musky, such as flourish in Tennessee, could live in my NE Texas BOW? Sure would be fun to have a few, if they could survive summer. My deepest water is around 21 feet and I don't aerate, so a thermal refuge sets up right around 9 or 10 feet deep in July/Aug/Sep.

Central Ohio 22 acre BOW stocked 25 12 inch TM and they did well, growing to about 38/39 inches. Reduced excess LMB numbers with positive effects on LMB size & BG.

I know this sounds crazy, and the odds are against, but then HSB in ponds was crazy, too.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/17/19 01:58 PM
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Is there any chance that southern bred musky, such as flourish in Tennessee, could live in my NE Texas BOW? Sure would be fun to have a few, if they could survive summer. My deepest water is around 21 feet and I don't aerate, so a thermal refuge sets up right around 9 or 10 feet deep in July/Aug/Sep.

Central Ohio 22 acre BOW stocked 25 12 inch TM and they did well, growing to about 38/39 inches. Reduced excess LMB numbers with positive effects on LMB size & BG.

I know this sounds crazy, and the odds are against, but then HSB in ponds was crazy, too.


Does your pond have springs in it by chance? The reading I've done has articles claiming pure strain muskie handle warmer water better, but I've also come across sources claiming tigers handle warmer water better. I have read of lakes in New Mexico with them, but I'm certain those were high elevation reservoirs. Bruce and myself have bodies of water around here ranging from .5 acres to 11 acres that they have survived in.

This is just my gut feeling here, but I have a feeling they will survive here, and possibly at your latitude, until reaching a certain size. Bill Cody and others may know better, but from my reading it seems like the cool water and oxygen demands are greater the larger the fish becomes. I have no idea what that size may be, but my gut tells me yours would survive for a few years until reaching a size where their demand for cool oxygenated water surpasses your ponds accessibility. Thats just my two cents.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/17/19 01:59 PM
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Is there any chance that southern bred musky, such as flourish in Tennessee, could live in my NE Texas BOW? Sure would be fun to have a few, if they could survive summer. My deepest water is around 21 feet and I don't aerate, so a thermal refuge sets up right around 9 or 10 feet deep in July/Aug/Sep.

Central Ohio 22 acre BOW stocked 25 12 inch TM and they did well, growing to about 38/39 inches. Reduced excess LMB numbers with positive effects on LMB size & BG.

I know this sounds crazy, and the odds are against, but then HSB in ponds was crazy, too.


If I were you I'd order 20 and try raising them in cages to see how they respond. Just a thought.
Posted By: anthropic Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/17/19 08:04 PM
Thanks for the words of wisdom, NEDOC! You've given me a lot to think about. I have fond memories of those big TM in Ohio, and they do function as a natural check on excess LMB numbers. I'd have thought pure Muskies would be more heat tolerant than TM, as the NP are cold water fish, but maybe hybrid vigor wins out. Worth looking into, at least.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/17/19 09:23 PM
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Thanks for the words of wisdom, NEDOC! You've given me a lot to think about. I have fond memories of those big TM in Ohio, and they do function as a natural check on excess LMB numbers. I'd have thought pure Muskies would be more heat tolerant than TM, as the NP are cold water fish, but maybe hybrid vigor wins out. Worth looking into, at least.


I think if your pond has spring water they could survive. In NW Nebraska there are some pike that survive in lakes that are very shallow and would be rather warm if not for the springs. So if you have them I'd give it a try.
Posted By: Snipe Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/18/19 03:08 AM
We have Pike in the very SW corner of NE just north of me and they do very well in 3 of the lakes there, one has pure strain Muskie and they've done well for 25+ years now.
I will add the TM is more likely to be successful due to being a hybrid. Just like Saugeye, they tolerate much lower water quality and higher temps than either parent. The aggressive nature of a hybrid would work in your favor as well I think.
Posted By: masterbasser316 Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/18/19 03:11 AM
For those that have Muskie have you seen a negative impact to growing big bass?
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/18/19 03:32 AM
Originally Posted By: masterbasser316
For those that have Muskie have you seen a negative impact to growing big bass?


I think it depends on the size of Muskie you have. TM prefer bass and sunfish about 20% their length. And suckers carp and Shad around 25-30% their length. So if you have an over abundance of 6-8” bass hurting your larger bass then I’d think a few 30” fish would help.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/18/19 03:33 AM
Originally Posted By: Snipe
We have Pike in the very SW corner of NE just north of me and they do very well in 3 of the lakes there, one has pure strain Muskie and they've done well for 25+ years now.
I will add the TM is more likely to be successful due to being a hybrid. Just like Saugeye, they tolerate much lower water quality and higher temps than either parent. The aggressive nature of a hybrid would work in your favor as well I think.


Always good info snipe. Thanks for the input.
Posted By: Snipe Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/18/19 03:48 AM
Swanson is pike heaven, Enders has Pike and Muskie, Rock Creek has Pike. All grow healthy fish with what seems to be better than average recruitment for Pike but I don't believe the Muskie have ever successfully reproduced, annual stockings only.
Posted By: anthropic Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/18/19 08:26 AM
Originally Posted By: Snipe
We have Pike in the very SW corner of NE just north of me and they do very well in 3 of the lakes there, one has pure strain Muskie and they've done well for 25+ years now.
I will add the TM is more likely to be successful due to being a hybrid. Just like Saugeye, they tolerate much lower water quality and higher temps than either parent. The aggressive nature of a hybrid would work in your favor as well I think.


Great info, I wasn't aware of this. Thanks, Snipe!
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/18/19 11:11 AM
Frank, Get some! smile Without aeration at your place and if you have water depths to 15' or more you will have a thermocline and I think that water may support this type of fish for awhile during the heat. As Bob Lusk describes how our lmb will lay in the upper edge of that thermo then maybe others will lay in there also. One possible problem with all that is they might eat my Lonestar Legacy/Camelot Belle Trophy's and I don't like that idea.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Tiger Muskie - 07/18/19 12:39 PM
One word of caution to anyone who may want to get some... you may consider growing them out for a bit as the 8-10” ones look like they’d be an awfully easy snack for an 18” plus largemouth.
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