my pond is kinda out of whack to say the least..(remember the 1000's of goldfish)..there are still lots of them left, not near as many, but still lots of big ones..

pond is about 3/4 acre. i added about 1000 bg in the beginning, but it was hot and some died.. no idea how many..i have already added 70 tiger bass. they are near 12" now.. the bass are super skinny..i really want to have a bunch of fat bg, not concerned too much about bass, im ok with catching 12" bass, they eat good to me..

question is- can i add more bg and not worry about having too many and them stunting? i have a supplier with cnbg about 4-5" so the bass wont eat.. minimum order is 500 but i have a friend that is willing to split the order.

another question: if i am really heavy on the bg, can i feed them enough to keep them from stunting? buying an auto feeder and feeding them often is not a problem..

1000 bluegill is WAY too many for that size pond if big bluegill are your focus. That's close to the number you would stock if you cared only for big bass and wanted to stuff the pond with bluegill for forage not caring about the size/growth potential of the bluegill. Adding bluegill is the last thing you want to do unless they all died, which most likely would have been noticeable. It's common for some fish to die shortly after a stocking, so unless you saw hundreds of dead ones, you still probably have too many bluegill.

Did you stock fingerlings, or intermediates 3-4"? If most of your bass are 12" or smaller they aren't going to put a big dent in 3-4" bluegill, but they could have eaten a lot of fingerlings.

You need to establish how many bluegill are still in the pond; this can be accomplished simply by fishing with live bait and keeping a catch log. Use light line (less visible to the fish), four-pound-test, with a #12 or #14 hook that's easy for a very small bluegill to swallow, and live bait such as a red wriggler threaded onto the hook (just for small fish). If you catch a fish or get your bait stolen almost every cast, which likely you will, that means the pond is overpopulated with bluegill, which it likely is. Fishing may or may not be an effective method of gauging what's in the pond bluegill-wise right now unless you wait for a warm day; but come February or especially March, you should be able to get a good idea.

Feeding with an automatic feeder will help the growth of your bluegill, but it won't stop them from stunting - it'll just lessen it. You'll have a lot of bluegill that will grow to a decent size, and a handful that get large, but you'll also have oodles that don't grow well and stay pretty small because there's not enough food to go around; or, best-case scenario, you'll have a lot that get decent-sized but nowhere near what they would in a pond in which they were less crowded. And the best-case scenario only happens with that many bluegill in that small a pond if you're running the feeder several times a day,
feeding pounds of food a day.

So if you really want large bluegill - and you live in the state that produced the world record, so it's realistic to expect bluegill approaching three pounds, or better, in a pond that's managed specifically for trophy bluegill - don't stock any more bluegill, and beyond that, consider stocking more bass, and begin thinning out the bluegill already in the pond, especially the females. Release the largest/healthiest males, and keep the rest or use them for garden fertilizer or raccoon feed. Don't keep any bass, ever; stock grass shrimp as an additional food source for the bluegill; get rid of the goldfish if possible (hire a bowfisherman to fish them out, snag them, etc.) Fertilize roughly once a month beginning in March and going through October, to maintain a plankton bloom such that visibility is no more than 18".

If you have larger gold fish, you should be able to catch some of them when angling for BG with small hooks and by trapping. They will eat worm pieces and live bait (wax worms) on small hooks under a small or slender bobber. Focus on catching goldfish. Get yourself or build a couple fish traps. Remove all goldfish that you catch. Overabundant goldfish will cause water to be more turbid, suppressing plankton development and overall slows the growth of the BG and competes with the BG for space and food. All negatives. IMO Each goldfish basically takes the place of one BG.
You should consider feeding fish (day-old bread or small floating pellets) in a shallow seineable area, then occassionally slipping a seine (40-100ft) in behind the feeding fish entrapping them between the seine and shore. Use ropes on ends of seine to maneuver it. Pull in seine and sort fish.

Adult BG will eat goldfish fry. Bass will eat small (2"-6") goldfish. Eventually with manual removal and with predation you should see a lot fewer goldfish. IMO Ideally if you wanted big BG you should have renovated pond first then restocked with BG & LMB.

AS WF says protect bass with very limited or no harvest at least until gold fish are rare and BG are large.

i have caughts hundreds of the goldfish so far with a cane pole.. they are pushing 10" now!!! set minnow baskets when i first noticed the goldfish and never caught a single one.. they were small back then.. they have got to fast and spooky to catch with a cast net now..i never saw a small one this year, so im sure all of this years hatch got ate..

what kinda fish trap do you recommend?

I would start with a homemade trap maybe from chicken wire or similar mesh. Traps can also be made from plastic netting.
Check this PBoss link for pictures and info of a homemade trap.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21794&fpart=4

I have never trapped goldfish but don't know why they would not enter a trap especially one that had leads or wings to direct fish toward the openings. If nothing else the trap will help you monitor your BG population.

If you are now catching mostly large ones (GF) that indicates most of the young are forage food items. Keep angling and thinning the goldfish and you will eventually get in front of them to a point the predators can control just about all new hatchlings. A gold fish stays small long enough that it should be consumed sooner or later before a size of 8" by a "strong"/numerous LMB population.

i would like to reopen this discussion. i think the goldfish young are being eaten as i didnt see any young at all this year. i will keep on fishing for them as soon as weather warms back up. i have a frozen pond right now, kinda rare i guess for alabama. i dont have a clue how many bg i have in the pond. i know i should have poisoned the fish and started over, but thats something i dont want to do. i really want some pure cnbg. i am supposed to have some, but i never really saw the copper colored nose on any that i caught. i know you all say i may have an over population of bg already and i shouldnt stock anymore. besides the young tiger bass in the pond i have a few larger ones that i stocked from another pond as soon as i realized i had all the gf. i caught one of them in late fall that was 18". i released it. i would think that fish that size should be able to eat 3-5" bg and should keep them from stunting..i have talked to david at south eastern pond about the sitution. he said in his 30 years of pond managing that he can count on one hand the times he has seen a pond with bass get over populated with bg. i plan to order a few larger cnbg from him in the next week or so. they are waiting on this cold weather to leave before they start draining and seining. i hope i am not messing up. i guess my realistic goal is to have a pond that is easy to catch eating size fish in. i filleted 7" bg and 12" lmb this past year. they ate mighty fine.

If you've got 50+ 12 tigers, and a few larger LMB in 3/4 acre, you've probably taken care of any BG overpopulation....I'd think you could add some CNBG without causing any major disruption. They may get eaten, however....

It's impossible to know without solid sampling data, but at this point you might be best served by a solid feeding program for the BG that you've got, CN or otherwise. If thinned out and well fed, your BG will grow like crazy in your part of the country even if they're just "ordinary" BG. I don't think your goals as stated above are at all unrealistic.

Scott you should learn to sample and assess your pond population. That would really help you with what to stock and when. My guess is the same as Yolk's. The good thing is you can easily make changes in your size pond. No need to start over as fixing it , if needed, will not be hard.

See this from the archives : http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492

what is the fix if you get a bg crowded pond? i think i have read that if they are crowded they are usually too big for bass to eat but not big enough for us to keep to eat? sound right?

just catch them, and throw the little ones away?? is that the fix?

An 18" LMB could eat a 6" BG. Are the LMB stunted as well? What's the conditon of the LMB that you are catching? Small bodies with big heads, or large bodies in relation to their head size? Look in the archives for a relative weight chart, and look closely at the size vs. weight for the LMB. How does that chart compare to the LMB in your pond?

First off the reason we stock 4-5 inch is becausse that is what is best economical choice. 6" double in price. yes a 18" bass will eat a 6" bluegill but better to have 3 4" bluegill vs. 1 6" to me if goal is to establish more bluegill.

Second no Scott stocking bluegill when your goal is big bluegill is not smart. If bass crowded you have monster bluegill. If bluegill crowded you add more bass. If bass undernourished you do nto have too many bass. You need to figure out what is going on with the pond first. No possible to have bg crowded and skinny bass on longterm basis.

against most everyones advice, i added 300 cnbg to my pond today. i asked for a few res and he brought 5. they were a little larger than the bg. that was all he was able to catch. the bg were about 5-6" and looked great. he says that with all the skinny bass that i have, this is a good move.. we will see how it works out..

You may have total biomass (fish) issues.

I agree. Just start taking out the small skinny looking regular BG. Fishing , trapping or seining will do wonders on a small pond.

i have talked to david at south eastern pond about the sitution. he said in his 30 years of pond managing that he can count on one hand the times he has seen a pond with bass get over populated with bg. i plan to order a few larger cnbg from him in the next week or so.



Looks like david hooked you. Goldfish, more bluegill, I love this thread.

?

I'd seine this pond, put the fish back in you want and dump the rest. Those big goldfish are a disaster. Do you plan on eating them? You only have so much room and so much fish space, and those goldfish are hogging the most per species in your pond. They are omnivorous eating and crapping machines. Major food chain disrupter. Plus they have this very bad habit of increasing turbidity. And I don't think adult goldfish are going to be very easy to catch or trap.

Adding the cnbg is probably a good idea, just not with your pond right now. I think you had the right thought when you said you had to start over.

No need to start over (rotenone). With a seine you can fix the problem. I agree - get get GF out and balance the rest.

goldfish are easy to catch on a cane pole, there are just a bunch of them. but there arent any small ones so i am sure all of the off spring are being eaten. my pond bottom terrain isnt very good for seining. i have never had a fish kill, i have good water flowing into my pond at all times, so i dont feel like i am maxed out as far as carrying capacity.

I dont plan on eating them, but i have had people come catch them and they ate them. they sure make for fun fishing for kids..

Can't seine then you catch them goldfish whenever you can. Just a baitfish that outgrew it's reason to be alive. If you notice most all the guys go with minnows, fatheads, gambusia, threadfin and shiners. They rarely if ever outgrow their use as forage. I would have held off on the new bg, but it's your pond, you do what you want. Goldfish can be so invasive some states even outlaw them as bait. Sounds like you enjoy the pond and the kids do as well, can't argue with that. I'm really surprised you don't have a lot of little ones, they are prolific breeders and lay eggs everywhere.

I've never seen goldfish be an issue in a pond with an established bass population. Give the bass a couple more years and their mouths with outgrow all but a few of the very biggest goldfish and those will die in a couple more years. All their young will be bass and BG candy. No sharp spines and they swim super slow.

I thought the same thing until I saw F and G seine a pond and they were the dominate species, more than every other species combined. Guy said they would raid all other fishes nests, get too big for bass to eat. And lay eggs everywhere. For a slow spineless fish, they have survival mechanisms unparalleled in our American food chain. They used to give them out everywhere, ping pong ball tosses, every kid had one in a bag. And the things can live in close to zero oxygen rancid water, while every gamefish is dying or dead. I don't like them, but I sure as hell respect them. Maybe you can tell me thier average lifespan?

I am not saying a recommend nor advocate the stocking of goldfish as forage. No doubt they can cause a mess in a pond, particularly one with limited larger sized predators. H

However, most ponds with bass struggle to support a self sustaining population of golden shiners for more than 3 or 4 years. Golden shiners reach large sizes like goldfish but are much faster and harder for bass to catch. I have never seen a healthy pond where goldfish dominated it. Sure sub par ponds prone to winter kills may support goldfish as the larger predators continually get killed off. However, healthy ponds where bass reach 15"+ in size rarely have self reproducing goldfish populations.

Most goldfish I see are of a fairly large size when released from their home aquarium, too big for most bass to eat to begin with. Those that are smaller, get eaten very quickly. All of their wild born offspring are gobbled up. The vast majority of goldfish eggs don't even hatch, they're eaten right off the vegetation they're laid on. I have been collecting native fish for 20 years and have yet to collect a wild goldfish in anything but the most awful conditions that would support little other fish life.

Do I think you should stock goldfish, probably not... But a pond with goldfish in it is not a lost cause. Over a few years, the bass will remove most of the goldfish along with what Bill Cody stated, which is to manually trap and seine goldfish as well.

This is getting good. Golden Shiners are about as different from goldfish as any species. Maybe the only thing in common is they have gold in thier name.

Golden shiners have little mouths, eat little food. Mainly microorganisms, zooplankton, up to small invertebrates. Some algae. And in relationship to thier size they eat very little.

Goldfish are truly eating machines, true omnivores. They eat surface food, small fry, eggs from other fishes nests, almost any plant life, even scour the bottom. They have expanding mouths and try to eat anything that can fit in them. If not they spit it out. They will eat until they explode.

A monster golden shiner might reach ten inches, still thin, still bass food. Plus they are a schooling fish. Making for excellent feeding opportunity. They are almost never nonforage. Even in a normal bass pond, they are usually unable to reproduce or stay in the pond without being reintroduced.

Goldfish get much longer and can be incredibly thick. To the point LMB won't even chase them. Can't eat them. After a generation or two they even lose the color and end up looking like crucian carp. They are survivors, can be loners, hide and if they make it until adulthood, they rarely go away naturally.

If you have a 5 year old shiner it is close to a miracle. Those goldfish can hang around for 35 to 30 years.

Total biomass wise the shiner population is usually shrinking, the goldfish increasing.

While shiners are swimming at the surface or midlevel, those goldfish are everywhere. Worse on the bottom increasing turbidity. Then the water condition degrades, they eat whatever plant life is left, and algae blooms result. If they deplete the oxygen, they come up and suck air around the corpses of floating desirable gamefish.

Shiners are native and really have a niche in our pond's foodchain. Goldfish are not, don't belong and can singlehandedly destroy a food chain.

Shiners require a above average water quaility. Some species are now endangered. Goldfish live in a puddle. A no water circulating, non filtered soup. They even make the water that way. Goldfish make dirty low quality water.

All over the world goldfish invade bodies of water. There are total disasters in Canada, Australia where they had to rotenone everything. One Hamilton study showed a pond near Lake Ontario where the population has increased from 50 to 40,000 in less than 5 years. They can be a plague.

If you want to compare a goldfish to another species the closest is common carp. Given enough time in a pond, they will be the highest percentage of fish biomass. I don't see the Pro Goldfish Tour starting anytime soon. I'd plant shiners in any pond I have, knowing eventually my gamefish are going to eat them all up. Goldfish? Never. Not even a consideration. If a customer asks me, can I plant goldfish in my pond? Even if they want to I just say it is a very bad idea.

GSH caught on a pellet fly. I relocated right around 200 of them to my pond last year.

What a nice baitfish. Shiners are awesome. Only baitfish our local stores sell. Bigger ones going for a buck a pop. Pros in FLA use that size for lunkers. If I had the facilities that might be the number one forage fish I raised. But I'm pretty much gambusia and fhm. Even starting the light fhm or rosie reds. Take a dam big bass to go for that. Very nice fish.

Based on the above good discussions - pros and cons, if it was my 3/4 ac pond, I would seriously consider draining the pond to a lower average depth and treating the remaining water with rotenone to eradicate all fish and start over. Dewatering lowers the cost of rotenone (less water to treat) and at lower pool gives you a chance to do some pond bottom maintenance, clean-up, reshaping, structure placement, etc.

But if you want to tinker around with various forms of managing the goldfish then do that. IMO if you don't renovate you will always be managing the pond to keep goldfish under control while having a less than possible bass BG pond. The choice is yours, make it thoughtfully and wisely. Keep us posted on your progress.

yup. I'd also just start over. If you had the resources you could pump that pond down and net the desirable fish out, and sell off the rest. That all depends on how many desirable fish you think you have in there. At least you would have some selective choice. But then you may have a ton of goldfish eggs, and would be back to square one on a few years. I think eventually you are going to have to start over, whether it is your choice or not.