This Spring I started working on an old 2/3 acre pond that has been untouched in 20+ years. The details can be found here: previous thread

The summary is that the pond was full of stunted LMB and no BG. I made the decision to get a healthier/bigger LMB population the hard way and not drain and start over. I culled about 23lbs/acre of LMB and added 150 4-5" BG in May. I know acheiving big LMB will be a challenge with a pond this size.

As the title of this thread says, the BG are loving the pond. I caught several that were 7+" and round and fat- I'm guessing 3 times bigger than stocked sized. I have BG on spawning beds everywhere around the pond. I also see plenty of BG and LMB YOY. Things are hopping. For entertainment my wife and I will buy crickets and earthworms and toss them out and LMB and BG gather for a free meal.

I'm guessing the BG are taking advantage of the empty niche in the pond. The LMB size remains unchanged. In a couple of hours fishing, I can catch 15-20 LMB. There is no statistically significant size/RW weight change from the previous sample (see previous thread above). The fish remain mostly in the 10" range and below 100% RW.

I'm thinking about repeating what I did last time and dedicate a day to fishing and placing all the LMB in a 55 gallon drum (with aerator). At the end of the day, I will measure and weigh all the fish and execute (so to speak) any culling plan.

It sounds like you may need to intensify the LMB culling efforts.

I'm with Sunil. Ruthlessly cull LMB until you lose count, then cull some more. You may be at it for quite a long time.
Those small bass are good to eat. We ate nearly 300! as fish tacos from our 1/4 acre pond over a three year period.
Have at it!

Big bluegill are definitely a plus.

GJ

So I'm up to 99 LMB removed since the Spring for a total of just shy of 30 lbs total. I've been logging each catch.

It's very homogenous. Here's the stat:

Length (inches)
Average: 8.7
Median: 9.0
StdDev: 1.5

Smallest was 6" and the largest was 14" There have been only two bass caught bigger 12" or larger. Almost all bass have been below 100% RW

On a somewhat related note, I'm looking at stocking some HSB this Fall. Still dialing in on final numbers closely followed by figuring out the right pellet feed for both the HSB and the BG and the needed amount and timing- especially as I transition into Winter.

I may start a separate thread for that discussion

Sounds like you are definitely getting your pond headed in the right direction!

Your plan for a new thread is probably also a good idea. That topic seems to generate a good discussion from people that have lots of expertise.

Somehow it seems there's not even close to enough to eat for the LMB. That may also be an issue for some HSB even if you have a feed program.

You've mentioned how well the new bluegill are doing, so we should see some increased forage numbers happening. Have you considered what kind of structure you have for newly born bluegill to use?

Regarding the feed, HSB will hit all sizes of feed, but they'll also grow quickly enough to hit the Aquamax Largemouth/Optimal Hand Throw which are all close to 1" diameter. Franky, my bluegill love those larger pellets also after they break down a bit, even though I feed two smaller sizes of pellets also.

Sunil-
The pond edges are full of YOY BG around the entire pond- from fry up to 1.5 inches. I can throw out a minnow trap and pull in a a couple dozed within ten minutes. The headline has been the dramatic growth of the stocked BG, but spawning started within a few weeks of stocking and YOY were evident a few weeks later. I should also note that I do pick-up a few YOY LMB in the trap but typicall just a couple.

Prior to stocking I dropped about 6 small small trees from the bank into the 2-3 deep end of the pond, and I dropped five scrub cedar tress into water that 5-7 deep that is on the shallower side of the pond. (Pond is roughly retangular with dam at a short end. Water is 10-9 foor for 2/3 of the pond as you move away from the dam and slopes 8-2 feet in the last 1/3.

Seems like plenty to eat to me. Since BG have not been iin the pond for the past 20+ years maybe the LMB need time to recongize the new menu offerings...

On the feed-
I have 70lbs texas hunter feeder. I think the size of the feed that it can handle will dictate how big I can go.

I'm glad that you mentioned this. I stocked 8"-10" HSB last fall and I've been wondering if they're ready for the Hand Throw pellets.
I sampled a few in the spring, and they were ranging 12"-14". I don't bother them when the water temp is above 75°F. From watching
them feed I'd guess that they're running 14"-18" now. Would that size fish be able to swallow the Hand Throw pellets, or do I wait
until next summer to start with that stuff?

I have 20 of them, and they will wipe out a pound of the Bass pellets in less than five minutes.

Augie-

Would love to hear more about the size of your pond, how you settled on 20 fish, and your experience with feeding over the winter. I'm in Virginia with mild winters so I suspect that the HSB will feed all winter long.

Any other tips or learnings are also appreciated!

Augie, I would say you're good to go to the Hand Throw. All fish eventually eat the larger pellets once they break up, so it's no real loss if the HSB don't get right on it. But I think a 14" HSB will tear it up, and larger HSB for sure.


I haven't really found that feed goes bad if kept dry over the winter, so I would absolutely get some Hand Throw or AQ Largemouth and start rocking.


In Western PA, I can usually feed all the way through October.

1997, sounds like you've got the structure going strong. For a 2/3 acre pond, I would conservatively start with 10-15 HSB, maybe 20, but that's just me. I don't eat them, so what I put in generally stays save for mortality.

.35acre, 16' sump at full pool, shallow shelf around most of the sump, bottom-diffused aeration.
RES, YP, SMB, HSB, and a ton of accidental, unwanted BG.

I probably should have only stocked 10 HSB, but I had to drive 300+ miles to pick them up and haul them home,
so I wanted to make sure I got my money's worth, and I needed help thinning the BG.
They aren't hard to catch, so it won't be difficult to remove a few when the need arises.
HSB are as good as any other fish when released to the grease.

I generally stop feeding around the end of October. I let the fish tell me when it's time.
I also give the pond a big shot of FHM in late fall.

I'm almost out of Bass pellets, and they're out of stock at Optimal. I'll order a bag of hand throw and see how they like it.

Check the gape size of your HSB and see if the pellet is more than 30% of gape size. I use to cut LMB pellets in half to hand feed 12 in HSB. I would hand feed a few uncut pellets and see the results. If needed cut them in half.


1997 -- regarding LMB culling


For LMB

This is what is suggested by Dick Anderson - the Prof who wrote the book on PSD.

Keep taking <12 in bass until the number 8-12 equals number 12-15. Ideal pond structure is 40% 8-12, 40% 12-15 and 20% 15+

This assumes good fish condition.

Another suggestion is take out all the fish in poor condition in all size groups. Note the size group that is stunted will have a much higher % of fish in poor condition.

These are all correlated to the concept of RW mgt.

Here are 3 archive links with a ton of info on the subject.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255372#Post255372

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255359

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492

Hand Throw arrived yesterday. The HSB didn't show much interest in it, but it brought doom to the young BG/GAM/GSH who swam up for a nibble.

I'll continue to offer the Hand Throw. In a week, if they still aren't eating it, I'll seal the bag and try it again next summer.
They can eat BG pellets until the Bass pellets are back in stock.

Water temps are still on the high side, so no sampling to measure gape until it cools off a bit.

Update on progress:
I've now reached 128 LMB removed since the Spring totaling 26.1 lbs. This is almost exactly 40lbs per acre as recommended by esshup. I'm seeing more RWs at 100% but not a majority.

On the flip size, the 150 BG I stocked in the Spring (no previous BG population) are monsters. I've measured a few and they are all in the 130% RW or higher. YOY BG are also visible along the bank around the entire pond. Hopefully they will continue to grow and provide some good eating!

Update us in the spring once the LMB have had a chance to fatten on the fall crop of BG YOY. You should see more breeching 100 RW at that time.

Yes but keep in mind the big drop in RW for LMB that accompanies spawning. Use pre spawn RW to compare. Or you can adjust by factoring in a 25-30% RW loss due to the spawn.

Good advice. I suspect my fishing of the pond will slow considerably over the winter months but should get a sample now and then before the Spring.

I intend to keep tge feeder running through the winter. A Richmond Virginia winter doesnt get that cold and water temps will likley stay north of 45 degrees. Planning on 1s once a day.

I've found my fish quit feeding on pellets at around 52 degrees water temps.

For LMB/BG when water temps get to 55 and dropping reduce feeding. Stop feeding when fish stop eating actively. This can changed from place to place based on local conditioning. When temps start rising in early spring start feeding slowly and increase with activity. Two very important times for feeding for fish health is in fall when temps are dropping but still 60-55 (improved condition going into winter) and when temps start to rise in early spring (improved condition for reproduction).

Stopping at 55 degrees comes up often from different sources. I asked the question to the hatchery when I picked up my HSB and he stops at 55 degrees. The incremental fish growth/value versus waste/cost of pellets is not worth it.

I'll keep an eye on the temp. Currently just above 60.

On a related note, I have rarely seen any active surface feeding this spring through the summer. I've never seen the piranha frenzy shown in some videos so the feeding only what they can eat in 10 minutes is just a good theory. From other posts this lack of surface activity doesn't seem uncommon with fish in some ponds waiting for feed to sink.

Alternatively, the BG are finding plenty to eat elsewhere and my daily 1s feedings are just supplemental snacks. I’m inclined to this theory given the stocked BG are at the 130% RW. It will be interesting to see next Spring if having a more and larger BG puts enough pressure on the pond to create more demand for pellets.

Checking back in after the Winter break. Water temps approaching 60 but not quite there yet. Bluegill that were stocked last Fall are huge and aggresive. The sample I caught had a median length of 8 inches and a median of 125% RW. They are literally bigger by weight then the LMB in the pond. I've only caught two LMB so far this Spring compared the 2 dozen plus BG. Both LMB were below 100% RW and culled.

I'll continue to cull the LMB below 100% RW (after post spawn) and may look at culling some of the bigger BG as the season progresses.

Like last year, I have the Texas feeder set to once a day at 1s. Based on the size of the BG it appears to be working.

I'm open to thoughts and opinions on nexts steps and timing on managing this 3/4 acre pond.

This sounds like maybe the LMB didn't grow much. So a question I have would be how well did the BG recruit?

If I recall correctly you did a harvest > 30 lbs LMB. So if there wasn't a lot of BG fry produced last year, I might allow the BG to pull off a couple of spawns which second spawn will probably occur in the June time frame. Judge the LMB RW in July.

The condition where prey size is larger than predator is not uncommon. For those focusing on trophy sized BG, this is normal and encouraged. Where trophy sized BG are desired, one is reluctant to remove LMB and one certainly doesn't want to overharvest LMB. Its easier to manage for remarkable BG than to manage for remarkable LMB .... especially in a small pond of less than 1 acre.


The feed is not required at all. Most of the growth was from pond organisms that serve as prey for the BG. There was no need to feed in a pond producing watermeal. It is fertile already, very eutrophic to produce large stands of watermeal. As long as you have a good population of LMB the BG will grow to remarkable sizes.

jpsdad, (and everyone else)

I have seen lots of discussions about supplying forage that is the correct size for LMB. However, I have not seen the equivalent discussion for large BG.

What do you think the large BG are utilizing for their forage diet in this pond (or in any trophy BG pond)?

I think all BG have tiny mouths, so I do not have a good grasp on how gape size changes their feeding habits as they get larger. Do 3-4" BG eat essentially the same diet (species AND size) as 8"+ BG?

We talk about LMB expending energy to catch their food. Is the diet of BG dumb, or do BG also expend significant energy to catch and consume their forage?

All of which is relevant to my final question. If a good fertile pond is producing trophy BG, would supplemental feeding be unlikely to increase the size of the trophy BG?

Even if all of your trophy BG are over 100% RW, would supplemental feeding increase the number of trophy BG or is that too dependent upon all of the other pond fishery variables?

I'm not sure about that comment saying 'feed is not required at all.'

At the very least, there is much context that needs to be considered.

BG spawned multiple times last Summer with fry visible in large quantites last year continuing to this Spring. I had been attributing the lack of LMB growth (for my small sample size this Spring) to a stunted population with little growth potential. I'll see how it plays out through this July and go from there.

There is certainly much talk about the limited growth potential of LMB that are stunted.

On the flip side though, those same stunted LMB will reproduce, and the new YOY LMB hopefully have better forage conditions and could grow to full potential.

Considering that, aggressively culling of the stunted LMB will make better conditions for newly born LMB.

I've caught my largest feed-trained bass (18") and largest bluegill yet (11" and 1#4oz) and my apparently one surviving HSB (18") several times on the Bass Throw pellets, scored and secured with a tiny rubber band to a small hook. It floats the hook, so, I may free line it on the surface or have it float above a weight on the bottom. The hazard of this baiting is one of three large "pet" channel cats (one is 32 inches and 20#) is always ready for a fight. I also feed the two smaller sizes.

I have personally witnessed stunted 8" to 10" LMB grow to 14" over winter when transplanted to a GSF pond where no other LMB were present. That's a quadrupling of weight from Fall to Spring in Northern OK. IMHO its the age that limits their ultimate potential. Those 8" to 10 LMB may have 6 years old so they don't have as much time to grow. IME they will grow if there is enough forage to go around.

Our member Bocomo started his harvest in late summer and fall. He recorded growth in his creel records the following spring. So why did he get results and you did not? The difference could be that your BOW has a very above average standing weight of LMB/acre with a much larger number of LMB/acre than an average pond. Keep in mind that your BOW had no BG and so the LMB partially filled that niche of insectivore.

For example, if your eutrophic pond could support 120 lbs of LMB then a reduction of 30 lbs would allow a 33% increase in the individual weights of the remaining LMB. For an average size of 9" that would be a 1" increase in length. If the LMB were very poor RW ... it is possible they wouldn't grow much at all in length but just fatten relative to their prior condition. It is spring and some fish have tended beds or spent eggs. Keep this in mind with respect to RW. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about RW right now. I'd track the lengths which when lengths start showing improvement you have meaningful evidence of growth.

jpsdad,

Thanks for taking the time to type out all of that good information. [My post is referring to his BG post above. I see jpsdad was also typing out a LMB post while I was typing.]

Hopefully, the title hook (BG growing like crazy) from the OP will drive some traffic to this thread for other people to read up on big BG.

I remember your previous post about Swingle showing great BG weight gain on gams. I don't know how much of the diet of a large BG is minnows and how much is the available invertebrates in the pond. (Or even LMB fry, etc.) I just expected their gape might have some profound effect on their diet, because it seems so tiny compared to the other fish I commonly catch.

In a Swingle type experiment, if there were fewer gams but a great abundance of some small zooplankton would the BG have shown as much weight gain? (Correcting for the relative nutrition between fish protein and zooplankton protein.)

It sounds like a clear water pond is definitely your recommendation for big and/or "trophy" BG. In that circumstance, would you recommend periodic fertilization? The resulting algal bloom would hurt water clarity for a little while, but you would jumpstart all of the food chain items that directly feed BG as well as the indirect food chain that results in fat minnows to also feed the BG. After the bloom cleared, the BG should be able to slaughter the once again easily visible forage.

Supplemental floating food would be easy to find during the bloom and then you might be able to cut back during the post-bloom natural forage boom. It seems that would make it easier for management rookies (like me) to push the total weight of BG a little without significantly risking a crash from pushing the pond to carrying capacity ALL of the year.

Researchers have discovered that people who've experienced famine suffer epigenetic changes that make their descendants less healthy. I wonder if stunted fish have similar effects? If so, may be another reason to cull them quickly!

I'll keep an eye on length. My records from last year of a 159 LMB caught are:

Average Length of 8.84"
Median Length of 9.00"
Stand Dev of 1.5"

For most of us non stat nerds this means that almost everything was between 8 and 10 inches with the most of the remainder under 12" or above 6" What it felt like was catching the same LMB over and over again...

The RW for this same sample was an average of 93% and the standard deviation said that almost everything was between 80 and 100%. Anything over 100% was rare.

I'll report back in July based on length. This is a marathon not a sprint

On a related note, I'll build on one of jpsdad's point. I believe the 150 BG I stocked April 2021 filled an open niche in my pond's ecosystem. I think they showed up at Golden Coral when no one else was admitted. This accounts for their dramatic growth but the open question is what will be the pond's new equilibrium with this new variable.

This is the real fun part for me and invite all to speculate!

anthropic, that is certainly worth factoring into '97's action plan. I do have to wonder on the available data set where humans who suffered from famine and extreme circumstances then procreated kids into non-similar circumstances. But the point is valid about stunted bass and their progeny.


1997, I think you've got to way, way increase your LMB culling efforts then. It seems you've got the bluegill population thriving, so you may be further along the path.

I am not aware of that study. But I am aware of a study conducted through generational records of a Scandinavian population that provided evidence of epigenetics and made it a science founded in hard to argue with evidence. (Until recently people who thought that environment did anything genetically beyond natural selection were considered cranks and kooks.) Anyways, in that study it was just the opposite. It wasn't times of scarcity that caused the problem. It was times of abundance when wheat crops succeeded very well. If this occurred during and through adolescence that generation had no ill effects but their offspring were susceptible to diabetes. So there is at least one example that having an abundance of food didn't lead to better health in subsequent generations. A difficult environment of scarcity may select the strongest genes where its easy to argue the opposite would allow inferior genes to survive.

jpsdad, that's the study I was referring to. In my perhaps faulty recollection, children born during extreme food scarcity in a remote Scandinavian fishing town had elevated rates of diabetes & mortality. Even grandchildren felt the effects, though DNA was unchanged. Smoking also had epigenetic impacts on descendents.

This shocking result is one of many reasons why I discount phrases like "the science says" or "obey the science" or "the scientific consensus is." In a battle between experts & observational evidence, I prefer to go with the evidence.

The Overkalix study summarized in wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96verkalix_study

I glanced at the Wiki article. They reference the "slow growth period" which is a stage of the human life cycle that directly preceeds puberty. This is the formative period for epi-genetic influence of germ cells. I was wondering if you may have connected "slow growth period" with "times of scarcity"? Anyways, there is no evidence that I am aware of that confirms that the progeny of stunted LMB are epi-genetically inhibited to grow as large as the progeny of LMB that reproduced while continuing to grow. This is not to say it may not be the case ... only that it is conjectural. There are other ample arguments one could make (that would be just as reasonable) that the effect may actually be the opposite. For me this is an unknown and I remain agnostic with regard to it.

As it applies to 97, I think it is inconsequential. I can with no hesitation predict that the growth of his LMB will always be forage limited. I base this on ample evidence provided by 97 and other evidence I have observed. As 97 culls his LMB they will grow larger as fewer mouths share a limited supply of forage. This supply of forage and the number of LMB competing for it, as it evolves, will always be the limiting factor.

Break the big pellets in half and see if they eat them . If so then start throwing a few whole pellets.

PB mag has had several articles on Evolution vs Adaptation.

There is IMO a fine line between when adaptation becomes evolution.

The info (status of change) is constantly changing and there are no easy answers.

Here is the start on one article

On The Pond Boss Forum recently there have been discussions on adaptation vs. evolution. This conversation centered around how do fish change, what is the mechanism (environment or genetics) and how long does it take. In Science Class we all learned about Darwin’s theories regarding Evolution. We were taught that Evolution is a slow gradual process. Darwin wrote, "…Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps." Parts of Darwin's Theory of Evolution are now a theory in crisis in light of the recent tremendous advances in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics. Darwin’s prediction was right on a geological scale (Earth’s age) but it has since been shown that evolution of species can happen much faster. In bacteria and insects, single generation change is known to occur. In more advanced species (fish and larger creatures), it was thought that things are more gradual, but still, do occur in sudden bursts.


and a conclusion

The discovery of continuing adult brain neurogenesis in mammals demonstrates that adaptive processes continue to shape the brain well beyond embryonic development. Because fish exhibit extensive neurogenesis in the brain throughout life as compared to mammals it is more likely a life-long process for brain growth in fish. These developments in embryonic and whole life brain development in fish resulting from environmental conditions (adaptation) is proof that adaptive change (through phenotypic plasticity) is quicker , more powerful and far more prevalent than previously thought.