Pond Boss
Posted By: Fyfer123 Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/05/19 05:55 PM
Hi all,

Yesterday, I was walking around my 1 acre, 16 feet deep pond and noticed hundreds of small fish swimming around. I knew they weren't minnows, so I went out with a net to catch some. They were too fast, so I switched to a small hook and tiny peice or worm which seemed to work. Anyway, I caught one and am almost 100% sure they are Largemouth Bass, which makes sense since I did see three of four medium sized fish swimming around last year that I knew weren't my Brown Trout. Unfortunately, I didn't try to fish them out, and I think they bread.

I have attached some pictures, so people can see if they look like bass to you, although I will say under the water they have the distinct black stripe. It doesn't really show in the photos I took in the air.

http://imgur.com/a/0zFDxrm

What do you think about having this many bass in a trout pond? There are about 60-80 Brown Trout, and the pond is aerated with a fountain. My worry is there is not enough food to support them, since there are only minnows, frogs, and insects. Maybe a few crayfish as well. Also, how long will it take these babies to get big?

Thanks for reading and your help.
Certainly looks like LMB YOY. It would be reasonable to expect them to get to 12" long in a year with decent food sources and even sooner given more than average forages.

Remove as many as you can so they don't take away from your trout's growth. Do trout eat bass fry?
Hi,

Wow, didn't realize how fast they can grow. Just one thing to note, my pond is in Ontario, Canada, so by December the water will be frozen until mid March. I wonder if that slows the growth. Problem is they are really hard to catch and are very plentiful. My biggest worry is there is not enough food for them, since I don't have any smaller fish of any kind other than minnows. The trout are just there to keep things healthy (mainly to control the leaches), because they don't get eaten or fisher for much. I just hope they don't screen up the well working ecosystem.
Well that's not good news. How big are your Brown Trout? As Brown Trout grow their diet leans more on other fish. If it were my trout pond I would definitely want those bass out of there.
Hi,

The trout were stocked two summers ago at 8-10" in length. By now, they are probably around 14". That's by best guess anyway. I was told by the fish farm that they could do well on just minnows and the many insects in the water. Hope that was correct. What do you believe will happen if the bass mature? Will this become a populated bass pond, even without bait fish? Let me know. Thank you for your help.
Bass growth rates would be slower up north, but I would bet I was not far off by saying 12" in a year under moderate conditions. LMB can overpopulate a small BOW in a few years, maybe by 5 years without proper predators present and culling. What typically happens is you end up with a very large population of 12" bass that have stunted in growth because they run out of food. This means your trout will also run out of food. Hopefully your trout are eating them...this could be a good thing. Although, I have never heard of anyone creating a forage base for trout with LMB.
Hi,

Thanks for your reply. The only predators I can think of are snapping turtles which there are a lot of, and they're really big. Also, there are many birds that catch little fish on the surface of the water, but that's really it. I don't want stunted fish, so would you recommend stocking anything else to correct the problem? I got trout so I didn't have to stock sunfish, but if it's 100% needed than I will. Let me know what you think.

Thanks
I know nothing about Canada but: With only trout in there, I would question what the bass are eating except each other.
How would you recommend getting them out? I thought maybe minnow traps, but I don't think anything would entice the bass to enter. I can't really get them out effectively with a hook and worm, since they are not very aggressive and there are so many it would take ages. They are also too fast to be caught by net and super fearful of the net. What about a cast net, since I they are always near the shore?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I think you are "stuck" with the bass until you renovate the entire pond. It will be extremely difficult to get them all out. All you need is one male & one female to annually repopulate the pond. Best time to try and catch all of them by angling is spring before they spawn. For best results use minnows as chumming and then as bait. Worms can work as additional bait when the bass become minnow hook shy. By all means be sure to return and let us know if you ever eliminate all bass and how you did it.
Hi,

Renovating the pond or doing anything drastic is really not an option, unfortunately. Since, aside from three big ones, all of the bass are tiny, do you recommend using cast nets or traps to try and get rid of them. And then use hook and like for the big three. I assume that somehow the big three got in, probably someone dropped them in, and then spawned, since another member said they were YOY. I just don't want to trap a bunch just to have the remaining ones grow up and populate the pond anyway. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
Posted By: Bocomo Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/06/19 04:59 AM
Could he selectively kill the bass by intentionally supercooling the pond in the winter?
Hi,

Not too sure how I could do that, since it freezes over completely. So it's obviously really cold. But if it's an option let me know how. Thanks.

Does anyone know a good way to remove the baby bass, if that is the route I choose to o go down? I was thinking maybe minnow traps, but don't know what bait is best. I also think a cast net might be effective, since all the bass stay in the shallows edges of the pond.
Posted By: ewest Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/06/19 06:16 PM
Seine net the pond releasing the trout. Will not get all the LMB but it will help.
Originally Posted By: Fyfer123
Hi,

Not too sure how I could do that, since it freezes over completely. So it's obviously really cold. But if it's an option let me know how. Thanks.



Running aeration all Winter would take the temp extremely low. Mine got down to 33 degrees.
I can consider doing that, although we usually let it freeze over in the winter, so it can be used for hockey and skating.
I am looking into that now. Sounds like it could be effective if I target certain areas.
LMB are extremely difficult to catch in traps. They seen to be instinctively trap smart. The larger bass and trout will eat a lot of the small 2"-4" bass then in spring use intensive angling effort to catch all that are willing to bite live bait. I doubt you will ever be able to remove all of them. There are likely to be a few smart ones that become very hook shy. Then to maybe remove them try baiting them with minnows (live ones then maybe dead ones as bass learn to eat tossed food items) or worms and then when bass are eating aggressively bury a small hook on light line (2-4lb) in the bait. Let them swallow the bait to minimize loss and missed bites.

You need to remove as many as possible before the next spawn or all your hard effort becomes just practice. Since you are in Canada it may take 2 yrs for the current year class to be big enough to spawn. Thus if you can get out the 3 adults you will have 2 yrs to remove all the 2019 year class LMB.

You could try to train them to eat pieces of cut fish as NEDOC did to food train his muskie. Then use small hooks INSIDE strips of cut fish so bass cannot see the hook. Please keep us updated about your progress of removing all the LMB. Also keep track of how many you managed to remove. I am very interested about your progress.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=38244&Number=508967#Post508967
Hi,

Thanks for your detailed response, Bill. Those all seem like good suggestions, although I wonder if embracing the bass may be a better option for me. Since I don't care a lot about whether or not I have trout, (I don't fish for them or anything) would you recommend stocking some bait fish to prevent the pond from having more problems such as stunting. Do you think that's a good option? I don't ind having bass, but I want them to exist well with the other beings in my pond.

Thanks again.
Posted By: ewest Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/07/19 03:13 PM
The LMB will eat everything that fits in their mouth. It is not uncommon to have LMB only ponds. They will find their own equilibrium point as a population. Their condition will not be great nor will they reach their potential but it will stabilize. After this year and LMB spawn you will have to stock advanced sized fish of other varieties if you want them to survive.
Posted By: Bocomo Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/07/19 04:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
LMB are extremely difficult to catch in traps. They seen to be instinctively trap smart. The larger bass and trout will eat a lot of the small 2"-4" bass then in spring use intensive angling effort to catch all that are willing to bite live bait. I doubt you will ever be able to remove all of them. There are likely to be a few smart ones that become very hook shy. Then to maybe remove them try baiting them with minnows (live ones then maybe dead ones as bass learn to eat tossed food items) or worms and then when bass are eating aggressively bury a small hook on light line (2-4lb) in the bait. Let them swallow the bait to minimize loss and missed bites.

You need to remove as many as possible before the next spawn or all your hard effort becomes just practice. Since you are in Canada it may take 2 yrs for the current year class to be big enough to spawn. Thus if you can get out the 3 adults you will have 2 yrs to remove all the 2019 year class LMB.

You could try to train them to eat pieces of cut fish as NEDOC did to food train his muskie. Then use small hooks INSIDE strips of cut fish so bass cannot see the hook. Please keep us updated about your progress of removing all the LMB. Also keep track of how many you managed to remove. I am very interested about your progress.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=38244&Number=508967#Post508967


Bill, could you please comment on whether or not he could intentionally freeze out the bass by supercooling with aeration during the Canadian winter?
Hi,

Thanks for your response. I am a little confused on what you mean by "After this year and LMB spawn you will have to stock advanced sized fish of other varieties if you want them to survive." I thought you said that LMB only ponds do exist and do alright. So, do I need to stock some bait fish or will the pond work itself out? Please let me know.
Posted By: ewest Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/07/19 05:32 PM
If you decided against a LMB only pond (and opt for a different mix) then any fish you stock after LMB get to 12 inches (same as after next years spawn) will have to be advanced sized fish in order to keep from being eaten.

If you do nothing you will have a LMB only pond .
Hi,

I do understand if nothing is added I will have an LMB only pond, but I want to know what will happen if that is the case. Will there not be overcrowding and stunting? I assume they will run out of food very quickly if there are no baitfish, bluegill, etc. There are other species in the pond that need to eat as well, such as snapping turtles, birds, and others, so I don't want them to suffer because of the bass.

Thanks again for your help.
The LMB will eat each other. If they are big enough, they will also eat any trout fingerlings you put in there.
Posted By: ewest Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/07/19 06:59 PM
The birds , turtles ect will be ok. The LMB will feed on each other and reach equilibrium with most topping out a 10 to 12 inches.
Hi,

The trout are over 12 inches, and I don't restock them, since I don't they don't get removed. So, the bass won't be able to eat them for awhile. Just put them there on advice of someone who said they would help the pond be more healthy, because of a fairly major leech problem. There was no fish and therefore nothing to eat the leaches, and it seems like the trout have done an okay job. I am just concerned now that the pond will be imbalanced because of the new bass. In your opinion, will the pond be alright if the bass are left alone and I don't make any changes?
Hi,

Ok, so you think that the pond will balance itself out? That would be ideal, as it works quite well as it is now. Hopefully, the LMB will not disrupt the already healthy balance. Once the become their full size, will they breed and produce more young? I guess it that happens than the larger bass could eat them and control the population. I am just interested to see if anyone thinks adding any fish will actually help out the pond more than taking away any or leaving it be.

Thanks a lot for your help.
The trout will eventually age out and die off, and it will be a bass only pond, filled with bass from fry size to 10 - 12 inches. If you are not going to fish it, and just want it for aesthetics, simply do nothing more to the fishery. It won't damage the pond for the larger frogs and turtles. Bass will eat the small frogs, and eat tadpoles if they get hungry.
The bass in northern climate will develop a stable population (balance) and if left to themselves with none you or others remove there will in one acre, as the pond ages, be approximately 70-85 bass in the 10"-12" size class. The average total number will tend to be dependent on how productive/fertile the pond (ecosystem) is.

Each year they will spawn and then about only those offspring that survive will basically be those that replace the bass that die naturally or be removed by you or predators. If you remove some of the 70-85 bass each year the average size of the remaining bass will tend to become larger with a few maybe 15"-16". The larger bass will eat the smaller bass, fish, frogs, and items too big for the 8"-12" bass.

The more the amount of habitat cover there is the smaller the average size of the bass will become because more cover allows more smaller bass to hide and survive. Generally the fewer bass that are in the pond the larger the remaining bass will be due to each bass gets more food. More food for each one = more growth. Their top end size is basically limited by how much food it gets each year.
Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I certainly wouldn't mind fishing it, but I don't want to have a "bass" pond, as I am happy with the way it is now. But if necessary, I can certainly pull a few bass each year.

Thanks for your help.
Hi,

Thanks for your detailed response. I just have two more questions for you.

1. How long will it take for the bass population to stabilise at 70-85 with 10-12" fish?

2. How many bass should I pull each year if I want them to be bigger?

Thanks a lot for your ongoing help, and I will be sure to keep everyone updated on the progress of the pond.
Posted By: BrianL Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/08/19 07:34 PM
1. My guess is less than two years.

2. 25-30# per year after couple years

3. My guess is the bass will hammer the leeches.
As a guess I think for the bass to stabilize at adult size the current 2019 LMB crop will have to grow to the 10-11" size so for in an Ontario trout pond it could take 3-4 years. I doubt the 2019 LMB group will be big enough to spawn in 2020 when in June the should be around 5"-6". However if you don't remove the current 3 adults you would get another year crop of baby bass (2020) next May early June. These 2020 bass fry - fingerlings will feed the 2019 bass to get them growing to the 7"-8" size. Then they could spawn in 2021 when some of the 2019 individuals are 9" maybe 8". Expect the 2019 bass to grow to 10" to maybe 12" in 2022. Let's see how far I miss the progress of your fishery.

When the bass get to 10"-12" you can still add trout do diversify your fishery. The supplimentally stocked trout should be a minimum of 7"-8" for good survival to avoid bass predation by 12" bass.

""2. How many bass should I pull each year if I want them to be bigger?"" Assuming that you have 70 bass in one acre, I think to get the remaining bass to grow beyond the 12" you should remove at least 35 and better 45 bass per year or add yellow perch with 25-35 bass ( any size) harvest each year to provide growth & food for the bass. Plus you could harvest some yellow perch for table use.

In my experience with YP in a LMB pond one should remove every bass caught to produce the better quality yellow perch fishery. LMB are intense predators of YP.
Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I do hope that the bass eat the leaches, as they have created nothing but trouble for my pond, or from what I can see at least. They seem to attach themselves to the turtles legs, and you can see up to 20 or more on each big snapper. It would be nice if the bass take care of them.
Hi,

Thanks again for your detailed and helpful response.

If I were to add yellow perch down the road, let's say 2022 when the bass are 10-12", how many would I need to add per year, assuming I was still pulling around 30 bass? And at what size would they need to be? I assume adding perch would take some pressure off of the other potential food, such as the frogs, minnows, etc. That would probably not be a bad thing to ensure the trout and turtles still have enough food, since they are likely eating mostly minnows and insects now. I assume the existing trout (roughly 12-14") could eat some perch as well, so I do like the idea. Let me know what stocking plan you recommend, should I choose to go down that route.

Thanks again.
Adding YP when LMB are 12" for high percentage of YP survival would require adding YP that are at least 6" and better 7" long. YP are slender bodied so LMB can eat them at about 1/2 the length of the bass. The pond with trout and only natural foods requires a lower biomass so all fish have enough food to grow not just survive. Before you add the YP I would make a good effort to remove as many LMB as possible to 1. provide more available food for new YP & trout and 2. reduce the overall predation pressure in the pond.

When you are ready to add the YP not that many trout may still be alive. Or if you add a few trout per year the pond will not accept nearly as many YP. Me not seeing your pond and not being able to evaluate the natural carrying capacity, I guess a natural trout pond might have around 100 lbs of fish biomass per acre. Then the number of YP to add will be based on how many trout and bass remain before the YP are stocked. To be on the safe side, I would not add any more adult YP (6"-9") than the number of LMB or trout that have been removed in the past 120 days. More YP could be added if the trout are regularly fed pellets.
Thanks again, Bill.

I don't plan on adding any more trout, as they seem to pressure the pond as you mentioned and I only added them so there would be some fish to take care of leaches and other minor issues. They just happened to be readily available in my area, and I liked that they wouldn't be able to breed, so I could control their population easily. So I assume by the time the pond is ready for YP, the trout would be all gone. It shouldn't be too tough to get the sizes of YP you mentioned, so, assuming the trout are gone, how many 7" perch would you recommend adding in around 2020?

If you'd like, I can send photos of the pond. Would oxygen be an issue down the road with all the new bass and potentially YP? It is my understanding that LMB require much less dissolved oxygen than trout, and are generally much hardier. Although I do assume trout fair better in cold water. I do have a lot of curly leaf pond weed which is an issue I am trying to control, and I would think the enormous mass of plants would take a fair amount of oxygen as well.

Again, I really appreciate your time and knowledgeable, thorough answers.
Posted By: Snipe Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/09/19 03:03 AM
Not to step in on Bill's conversation but Pondweed helps provide O2, not deplete it.. but it does need to be controlled/managed so it's not "out of control" obviously.
I like Bill's idea on the YP.
Hi,

Interesting, I really would have thought it used oxygen during cellular respiration, but now that I think of it, it makes sense, since all plants do produce oxygen during photosynthesis.

I am working on controlling the weeds with a weed razor and have tried many other methods in the past; they are certainly a very resilient plant!
Posted By: Snipe Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 08/09/19 04:15 AM
Too many weeds/plants can use some O2 use/loss while decaying at years end or something such as leaving the dead removed plants in the water.
The good bacteria will handle a good load of this without a crash under "normal" conditions especially in cooler water.
YP tolerate much lower water quality than many species and can handle lower DO than most but that doesn't mean they prosper in those conditions. Always good to manage water quality when able.
Hi,

I would say the water quality is pretty good, since the pond has trout, and they require very good water quality, high dissolved oxygen, low temps, etc. I do use a few treatments that are supposed to increase clarity and remove much, and they seem to work very well. I try to remove as much decaying matter as possible, although it isn't easy with such a deep pond all around (it used to be a quarry).

Do you believe the extra fish that are there now will put pressure on the amount of oxygen, therefore, causing there to be issues with the trout and other animals?

Thanks
The extra fish should not affect trout survival. High numbers of curly leaf dying in a short period could reduce DO for trout survival. Curly leaf is troublesome to deal with. I fight it constantly. I have resorted to herbicide treatment in fall and or spring.

How many 7" YP to add? Are you buying them or catching them from a lake?
Hi Bill,

Yes, curly leaf is a real pain to deal with. Herbicides are extremely hard to come by in my area, so I've never tried them.

In terms of the YP, I would purchase them from a local company. They would likely have all sizes available.

Thanks for your help.
Hi all,

I wanted to give an update on my situation since I have been helped so much by the responses on this post. So here it is...

The bass are growing rapidly. The average ones are 4-5", with the biggest being 6" or a little more. They were maybe 2-3" when I first spotted them a month ago, possibly less. I have been catching them on a mini Trout Magnet. There are more of them than I have ever seen now. It is truly crazy. I can catch one every cast from anywhere in the pond, and if I throw a small spinner, literally 50+ swim after it.

I believe they have eaten all of my minnows, and I'm actually concerned about that. I know that my trout were eating them, so it wouldn't be good if they depleted the population. Is it possible for a bunch of baby bass to do so? I believed so many hatched because there are no other fish in my pond that would bother the nests (the trout are near the bottom of the pond.) Over the past three days, I have put a minnow trap with different baits, dog food, bread, crackers, meat, cheese, +, in different places and haven't caught one minnow. I used to see hundreds schooling along the shores everywhere, now nothing. Should I be concerned about this?

Any suggestions on what to do going forward would be great.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me with this.
Thanks for you pond fish update. Interesting situation you have.
If your goal is natural trout production for this pond then yes be concerned, VERY concerned. Those abundant small bass as they grow to the 6"+ sizes will eliminate your minnows - ELIMINATE them. so to keep your trout fed you will have to resort to feeding them pellets. As you know now bass will not enter a trap even one that is baited. I doubt you will ever be able to catch out all those bass before they spawn again. Then it is a repeat of this year. It will be difficult to catch the last few bass out of the pond because the final few will eventually learn to be hook smart - hook shy and not bite anything with a line and hook attached. I have experienced this in several ponds. You have to be a very finesse angler to get the last 2-4 bass out.


You could sustain the trout fishery by regularly feeding them pellets. However if you do not daily go to the pond then pellet feeding trout is more of a hurdle problem.

IMO you will need to decide to renovate the pond OR stock additional fish to create a more balanced predator prey fishery. And if you do nothing else the bass will eventually achieve a weight & number balance to where there are around 30-50 bass per acre and their top end size would be around 10" to 12". The existing adults eat almost all the bass offspring before the next spawn. If you could try and keep the adult bass number down to around 20-25 per ac then they would by themselves grow slightly larger to around 12"-14" max. Their top end size will be based on the amount of food each one gets each year.
Hi,

Thanks so much for your detailed response, Bill. It truly is incredible how many changes I have noticed in just a few weeks since noticing the bass.

Do you believe the trout will now have absolutely nothing to eat? I believe the bass have eliminated the minnows already. I haven't seen one in weeks. Pellet feeding is not ideal for me, so I may loose the trout if that is necessary. Should I start to fish them out so they don't go to waste?

I am thinking about stocking YP as you recommended before. How many should I stock and at what size? There is a stockery near me that would be able to sell most sizes I believe. Do you believe the YP will be a good option and can they overpopulate?

Thanks again.
Posted By: Snipe Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 09/03/19 03:18 AM
I'm not Bill by any means but to keep from throwing YP snacks to the bass I would think 2 sizes here. #1, the largest you can afford being 1/4 of what you stock. say (per acre) 35-50 6-8" or slightly larger if available to insure you have females and 75-100 mixed size of say 4-6" to insure you have males so you insure a spawn or best chance of next spring. In your neck of Canada those 4-6" fish could be 2018 hatch but that just goes with the growing seasons there.
If Bill has a different suggestion, please follow his advise, he IS Dr. Perch.
Posted By: jpsdad Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 09/03/19 05:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Fyfer123
Hi,

Do you believe the trout will now have absolutely nothing to eat? I believe the bass have eliminated the minnows already. I haven't seen one in weeks. Pellet feeding is not ideal for me, so I may loose the trout if that is necessary. Should I start to fish them out so they don't go to waste?



Fyfer,

The trout have lost an important food source but they may not have lost the primary source of food. If your water supports a large population of scuds, it is likely they are more important to them than the minnows. It's difficult to say just how strong the LMB will become. I think in a worst case, it will be as Bill and Eric described with LMB topping out at 10 to 12" supporting between 70-85/acre of them.

Species interactions are sometimes difficult to predict. In the Summer, the LMB have a clear advantage in shallow, warmer areas of the pond. The young LMB freely go to very shallow water to forage. The reluctance of the Brown trout to do so has always given the minnows a refuge. I can't make any predictions of benefits the LMB might provide to your BOW, but there could be some we haven't yet considered. For example, Leeches readily prey on amphipods and if these are more important to your trout than the leeches are they may be limiting trout food. If the young bass will feed on them, a potential positive outcome could be more amphipod prey for the trout.

The waters of your BOW are cool enough to support trout year round. Trout are cold water fish and they are more active than LMB through winter and they will have a very powerful advantage over LMB at ice out. Overwintering 0-year LMB could offer substantial forage for them during this time. The point I am making is that we don't yet know how this will play out for the brown trout. It might be worth giving the Brown trout a chance show you what they may be capable of withstanding in competition with LMB.

If you add an additional species there will be benefits for the LMB. They will achieve a larger ultimate size but their biomass will not be substantially increased. You will have fewer but larger LMB. An additional species like YP will serve as a predator and competitor of the 0 year class LMB helping to reduce LMB recruitment. The standing weight of LMB and YP will be much greater than LMB can achieve on their own. To be sure, the YP will compete to no small degree with your trout for invertebrate prey organisms.

You cannot likely eradicate the LMB but they may be something you can live with and still keep trout. If you add a prey species for the LMB, the prognosis for the trout could be less certain than with LMB alone. Just some things to think about if you would like to keep trout.

Thanks for this advice. I definitely want to get large ones to ensure their population will grow by them breeding before getting eaten by the 3 big bass or even the babies. They are growing so quickly. I hope that the perch will be able to eat bass fry and even the eggs, so they will keep the population in check while still feeding them as well.
Thanks for your detailed and helpful response.

I have not seen any scuds in the water, but they may be there. I believe the trout eat bugs on the surface during the cooler months but definitely not in the summer. They may very well still have food, but I'm sure the bass have taken a big dent on their sources.

It is interesting about the leeches. They actually prey on my snapping turtles so much that everyone has at least 5 on each leg. I would be happy if the bass took most of them out. I'm not sure if that would effect the trout or not. If anything, I know that they eat leeches, so they may have more competition now.

They will certainly have an advantage during the cooler months, as that is when they thrive. That's definitely not the case for the bass. I like your point about looking at the benefits and not only the drawbacks of having the bass.

If I get YP I am just assuming that I won't be adding anymore trout. I don't like fishing for them since their so sensitive and haven't been eating any, so I really don't need them. I would like YP for fishing through the ice and to provide substantial forage to grow larger bass. If I have bass, I may as well grow them big as I do like bass fishing. At this point, I am actually looking for a way to have a balanced bass pond that has good fishing and is supportive of what already lives there (maybe minus the trout). I will need to figure out a solid stocking plan and culling plan to grow my pond to its full potential.

Thanks so much for your help.
If the LMB get a head start on the YP will the YP have enough fry to feed the LMB and have enough reqruitment to allow you to catch some for the table
This is a great question, and I'm not sure if the answer. Maybe someone else knows?
Posted By: Snipe Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 09/05/19 04:49 AM
This will be similar to any other species... If we stock large enough fish to not be snacks for LMB, there will be a hatch next spring. Like everything else, if nursery cover is available we get some survival, some will make it to help provide more available adults to reproduce the following years to come. Some will provide some predation on yoy lmb when that time comes.
I really think the angling pressure needs to be a large part of initial management for LMB or course.. I think that's going to be really important.
I'd like to hear Bill C's Ideas on stocking rates, I don't think I'm off far on sizes needed but I'd like to hear his take on this.
For stocking YP I would use what Snipe suggested: "the largest you can afford being 1/4 of what you stock. say (per acre) 35-50 6-8" or slightly larger if available to insure you have females and 75-100 mixed size of say 4-6" to insure you have males so you insure a spawn or best chance of next spring. You many need to periodically add 6"-8" or larger YP to to maintain good catchable harvest of YP as time passes.

To get the YP to recruit as good as possible, keep focused on removing all all sizes of LMB as many as practical each year. Whenever you see a need for more predation you can always reduce the annual harvest of bass.
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you, and that is why I will go with larger YP. I do have a decent amount of cover, so I hope the fry will do OK when the adults spawn. I can start to fish out the bass as soon as is needed, so that shouldn't be an issue for me.
Thanks again for your reply.

I will follow that stocking plan and contact the fish farm. Do you recommend stocking now? Ice will begin to form in December and will leave late March.

Also, do you recommend begining to harvest LMB right now, even at their current small size? I can take as many as is recommended (they are very easy to catch right now).

Thanks again.
Posted By: ewest Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 09/06/19 03:23 PM
I would start harvesting LMB now and keep records (pics) of what you harvest. You can stock YP now. Be sure to ask when they were born (mth/year). I would much rather have the YP ahead of the LMB in size for a continuing population. Feeding the YP will help.
It will definitely be good for the YP to get a head start on the bass, as in sure the bass will catch up!
Hi everyone,

I have decided on a plan that I will be following after much consideration of everyone's advice on this forum and the advice of local pond managers. The local experts said that bass in this region are really not a big problem, even in ponds without bait fish. They said they don't ever see overcrowded bass ponds. I assume this is because our climate is quite a bit different than it is in areas where bass ponds are more common (we basically only have trout ponds here).

Here's the plan:

Allow the bass to grow until the ice goes out in March, and then begin to harvest, depending on how the population looks and their size. I am still not sure how many to take, but am pretty sure I want to take some. I like the idea of around 40 per year when they reach 10" + but am not sure when that will be. I believe Bill said the population would top out at around 75-80 ish in the 12" ish size range. Should I harvest before the population levels out at that size and number? Or should I start harvesting now. If so, how many?

I will not be adding any YP or other bait fish. They are not easy to get here at all, and I have been told they really aren't needed by local managers. Does everyone agree with this?

Finally, I will let the trout be and check up on them to see how they are doing, but I don't plan on restocking trout or harvesting them at the moment.

I know this is a very loose plan, but it basically comes down to harvest a yet to be decided number of bass and leaving everything else be. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for the ongoing help.
What ever type of fishery you prefer is good for your needs. I have a fair amount of experience with similar situations to yours. Your comment of "The local experts said that bass in this region are really not a big problem, even in ponds without bait fish." "They said they don't ever see overcrowded bass ponds". "I assume this is because our climate is quite a bit different than it is in areas where bass ponds are more common (we basically only have trout ponds here)." I don't think your 'local experts' are telling you the 'whole story' or there is some confusion of the goals of the discussions among you and local experts.

You are in a northern climate - Maine, thus your growing season is shorter and cooler than more southern climates. Small bass could be a very common situation in Maine; although the Maine state record LMB is 11 lb 10oz. In your area we expect the LMB to grow slower than those further south. This means to me that they may top out at closer to 10" than 12". As I mentioned earlier they could reach 13+" if you manage to keep their numbers in the lower range of 14-20 in 1ac. Please return and further educate us if you are able to achieve other results.

IMO we need to define "big problem" and "overcrowded". One persons 'overcrowded' could easily mean something quite different than another person's definition of overcrowded. Overcrowded is a matter of opinion and local acceptability. Big problem is also a relative term and the definition is important. Big problem compared to what?

Overcrowded in this thread to me is the bass stay small 9" to 12" and there are too many LMB for the food source to grow to 16", 18"+ (3-4lbs) that can common happen even in northern areas in a balanced predator prey community. Many with balanced LMB - sportfish ponds will call bass toping out at 9"to 12" as overcrowded. For many that have a bass grow to only 12", that is considered overcrowded and stunted. However 10"-12" LMB can be considered by some as very acceptable, providing fast catching angler action and not as overcrowded. Most people with bass sport fish ponds want the bass to grow to 18" to better 20"+. Bass in your pond will never do this - guaranteed; unless you have a reproducing thriving forage fish present and keep the bass numbers in a "standard low numbers balance".

You say ""I will not be adding any YP or other bait fish. They are not easy to get here at all, and I have been told they really aren't needed by local managers. Does everyone agree with this?"" as noted below panfish are not needed when 10"-12" bass are acceptable. Again local managers have their opinion. I would quiz them as to what bass in Maine ponds generally eat to grow to 16"+ and what are the LMB density per acre???. Do your local experts really know? Your pond will need these same types of foods to get bass larger than 13". If you are satisfied with 10" to maybe 12" bass and no other form of panfish to harvest and eat,,, then YP or other fish forages are definitely not needed. Other forage fish and appropriate LMB numbers per acre are only needed to grow bass to sizes larger than 15"-16"+.
Quote:
Should I harvest before the population levels out at that size and number? Or should I start harvesting now. If so, how many?


Based on your situation, locality, pond size, natural pond type of habitat, the reproductive rate of LMB, and within average angler effort, I doubt that you will ever be able to take out too many bass. Start removing bass at anytime you are there with a few extra moments. You don't have to do it all at once. It is said to be actually better to minimize hook shy fish to fish as short periodic sessions rather than long periods.
Thanks again for the very valuable advice. I completely agree with you; the local standards here are different than the ones in other areas. Just to note, not sure if there was a misunderstanding earlier on in the thread, but my pond is in central Ontario, Canada, not Maine. Regardless, the local standards are very different, and I so believe that the experts here think that 10-12" bass are perfectly acceptable. So, to them, that is not considered overcrowded or a big problem. The advice here would help me grow larger fish which I would like to do one day, so I will be accessing my pond over the next few months and years to determine if that's something I want. At the end of the day, it does come down to goals as you said. If I want big bass than my current plan will not be effective. If I don't care about size, than I shouldn't need to touch the pond at all in terms of the fish. The pond experts are basing their advice on a goal of just having a pond as if it didn't even have bass, if that makes sense. As in, how can we not work on the bass and still use the pond like it was used before. I'm sure if I said that I wanted big bass they would have different advice.

I would like to have YP, but at the moment, they are not logistically possible, as they are hard to get and apparently sold out at the local farm. I will reassess that decision in the spring.
Posted By: ewest Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 09/07/19 03:42 PM
I agree with Bill. We have some excellent northern experts here including Bill and a lot of northern experience. I don't believe the local ones are correct. Overcrowded is anytime the food source will not support the consuming population exhibited by declining condition (RC - relative condition). IMO in your location you would be better off with WE and YP and as few LMB as possible. A good forage base including minnows (small fish of some type) would be a good start. It is your choice and we all strongly support that and we all hope it works well for you. Please keep us updated as we all will learn from your journey.
Bill and others on the forum are certainly very knowledgeable, and have knowledge about northern ponds. I've chosen this plan, but am always going to look at if it needs to be changed based on my assesments of the pond.

I will continue to update everyone on this thread.

Thanks so much for all the help - let's see how this goes!
http://imgur.com/gallery/ONqBvmy

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to give everyone an update on the situation in my pond.

In case anyone doesn't remember or know, I will give a very brief update on what happened. Basically, my pond is about 1 acre, located in Ontario, 16ft deep, stocked with brown trout, has a lot of natural, small forage. Towards the beginning of the summer, I realized that there were many small bass swimming around. They came from three very sizable bass that must have gotten in there somehow, which I saw later on swimming around. The young bass are literally everywhere and very eager to eat anything. It seems that they have completely eliminated my minnows and my concern is they will run out of food. I am already sticking to a pretty clear plan of removing fish, especially next year when they are presumably bigger. I want to remove about every one I catch, in order to allow the others to get bigger and not overcrowded.

Here's the update:


Firstly, the bass seem to be doing very well. There are certainly a lot of them and they bite about any lure I throw aggressively. They are everywhere in the pond, and school in large numbers. I have caught a few and attached pictures. The picture of the smallest bass is one that was caught at the beginning of the summer. The rest were caught today. How do they look health and size wise? Are they well fed? Most fish are approximately 5", with the smallest being 3" and the biggest maybe 6" or up to 7". They certainly seem very small. Are they way too small for this springs spawn? Not sure if this is important, but they seem to have different colourations. Many looks like the one on ice in the photo, but others look like the ones I have in the other photos. Just an interesting thing I noticed.

Trout wise, I haven't seen any this summer, but I have caught a nice sized one that appeared healthy. It is in a photo attached and was 18"-20" long. It didn't take much more that 3 minutes casting by the fountain, so I think a few probably suspend there, making me thing a lot are still alive. Haven't seen any dead ones since the ice went out.

Anyway, what does everyone think about the fish? Are they healthy? Is my plan still a good one? Any input is appreciated. Thanks.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 10/07/19 12:31 AM
In my very limited experience, I would say the LMB may be just surviving vs thriving. I would worry they have over eaten the forage for the trout and will out compete them for what's left. The future may bring trout trying to survive on LMB fingerlings. What species are your minnows?

Not a pro...just my 1 cent
Hi,

Thanks for your response. It is much appreciated.

I agree with you and wonder if others do too. The LMB seem to have depleted the forage base. I wonder if their growth rate is standard to fish in northern ponds such as this one. If it's any use, the average daily temperature here is about 10-13 Celsius, with nights dropping to 3-7. We have had one below zero night so far.

I am hoping the trout are still eating enough. To increase everyone's survival rate under the ice this winter, I am thinking of removing as many LMB as possible starting now. My question is, will I remove too many to ensure some LMB survive for fishing purposes next spring? Is it possible to remove too many? I still want to have LMB to fish, as mentioned in the previous post.

Thanks
Adam, I get your concern about possibly overfishing your bass. In my experience, it took me 3 years to knock my bass population down in a 1/4 acre pond. I live on the pond and fished it a few times a week with ultralight tackle specifically to reduce the LMB population.

In the few remaining weeks you have before freeze up, I think you could try to hammer the bass with a variety of baits and lures. I think it unlikely that you would destroy your opportunity for catchable bass next summer this way. They learn from watching others get caught and pulled from the water. This makes them hesitant to bite for a few days. Soon enough you'll have ice to contend with.

If you end up with 20, 50, 75 LMB overwintering, you'll likely have better quality fishing next year than if you overwinter 200, 500, or 750.

I am certainly not an expert, but if what you say is true, that is, your forage is already depleted, then each bass you remove this fall will potentially help any remaining fish be able to grow to a more interesting size.

In any event, keep us posted. This sounds like a fascinating way to control an unwanted or unplanned population of predators.
Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

Your situation seems very applicable to mine. I am sure your right in that I cannot remove all of the bass before the ice comes, so I may as well try as much as I can, within reason.

Starting now, I will be fishing often to remove as many little bass as possible.

I wonder if I should try and put the biggest ones back. Is that a good idea? Some of them are 2-3" bigger than the others, and some are very small, so does it make sense to do a little selective harvest? Any input would be great.

Thanks again.
Hi everyone,

I tried catching the bass today to start harvesting them, and somehow only got two in 1.5 hours. I have no idea what has happened, as last week I could get one every cast. Is it because the water has cooled down a lot this week? I actually caught more trout by mistake than bass, even though there are only a few in the whole pond.

If anyone knows what the cause of the bass not being catchable anymore is, please let me know.

I have also tried fishing deeper with no results, so I don't know where they are. I don't see them from the shore like I usually do either.

Thanks again!
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Found Tons of Baby Bass in my Trout Pond - 10/12/19 05:49 PM
My bass slow way down as the water cools. What lures worked in warm water do not in cooler water. I've found you need to use a slower bait and that the bass strike zone is much smaller, i.e. they are not willing to go far to strike. You might try minnows under a bobber with a very slow retrieve. Good luck!
+ what Bill D. said.
My water temp has dropped into the 50's. No LMB nor BG are catchable anymore. The only BG coming up to simply look at pellets or mealworms are the 3" and 4" fish that hang around the dock. None of the 8" to 10" BG show up any longer.
An occasional YP grabs a bite every few minutes. Trout are still feeding heavily.
Hi,

Thanks for the response. I will try to use a bit of a slower presentation, so instead of a trout spinner I will maybe a slow moving gulp minnow or similar. I'll try today and see how it goes. Maybe a spoon as well, jigged slowly.
Thanks for the response. Interesting you say that about the trout, as mine are also taking my spinners and I'm not even targeting them. I'm going to try a slow presentation for the bass today and see how it goes.
Hi all,

I hope everyone is doing well. I wanted to give an update on my situation which has been discussed thoroughly in this thread.

The bass fry grew to no larger than 6" before the ice came in this winter. I had a lot of trouble catching them after mid-October, when it starting getting below zero some nights. The ice went in I want to say end of November and I tried ice fishing once this February just for a half hour with no success.

Now that the ice is out, I have tried to catch some but have had no success. The water is still cold. I am considering stocking some YP as forage this spring, but haven't decided. I am still concerned about changing the dynamics of the pond too much.

Anyway, just wanted to update everyone who helped me out last summer and fall. I will provide an update to the bass's size when I catch some.

Thanks!
What are you using for bait to catch those 6" bass? Bite will be slow until the water warms to 55F+. Best bite will begin when water reaches 60F.
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
What are you using for bait to catch those 6" bass? Bite will be slow until the water warms to 55F+. Best bite will begin when water reaches 60F.

I've been trying to use a Trout Magnet on an UL setup. I have caught a couple trout in the process, but still no bass. It has been a very cold Spring here, and it's still getting below zero almost every night. I am going to have to wait until the water temperatures rise. However, I haven't seen ANY signs of the bass at all, even though the water is very clear. Would I know if they all died? Is that even possible? Thanks again.
Your small bass did not die. The water is still too cool for them to be real active yet. Allow the water to warm up. What is the water temperature?
Thanks for your reply. I am glad to here that they are not dead as I feared. The water temperature is less than 10°C (50°F), I estimate. But, I will measure it properly and post it here. Thanks again, Bill.

Cody Note - Yes water at 50F is pretty cold for LMbass to be very active. Expect a lot more bass feeding activity when the water reaches 60F and LMB should be more visible and pretty aggressively feeding at 65F.
Hi everyone,

Here is an update on the pond situation, leading me to have a couple of questions.

As you suggested, Bill, the bass became visible and somewhat active after the water warmed up. We've had a very cold spring thus far, so I was just able to see the bass yesterday. I was able to catch four of them on light tackle and live worms. Their feeding response was a LOT less aggressive than last summer, not sure if that means anything important. It took me a fairly long time to catch each one, and most were uninterested in the bait. They was a very big school of them in SUPER shallow water (4", maybe less) at the corner of the pond. There were also about four larger bass that I saw (10-14" maybe). They were MUCH thicker than the small bass schooling, so I assume these are the older ones. I just found out a couple of weeks ago that someone, without permission, added a bucket of fish to the pond, some of which were bass. I am a little worried to find out what else is in here now. This was done approximately two, maybe three years ago, I think. He could've done it a second time as well.

Anyways, the larger bass were IMPOSSIBLE to catch. They would ignore anything I threw at them, even live worms. The weird thing is, they are SO skittish that even a tiny jig head with a worm scares them off. Three of the bigger bass I saw always travel together. I literally always see them in a group of three side by side, this year and last year. Is that normal behaviour for LMB? I can actually always know where they are, because their backs almost stick out of the water, creating a wake.

Additionally, I have attached a photo of one of the bass I caught yesterday. Is this a fine size for a now almost exactly 1 yr old LMB? As shown in the image, the fish is about 6" long and really elongated.

To summarize, the baby LMB that mysteriously (not a mystery anymore) appeared in my pond last year are now active again and, a year after they hatched, are only 6". Is this a normal size (Northern pond)? Is it normal for the larger bass to be very skittish and to travel in groups?

Bass caught yesterday: https://imgur.com/a/z0kEhUS

Thanks very much.
Thanks for the update. A northern one year old bass 6" long is okay growth. A few could be 4" and a few 7". It is common for a few or several older bass of travel in small groups where they can hunt in a pack to an advantage.

Are you still going to try to remove as many as possible or change your goals for this pond? A new crop of bass will be added soon to compound your problem.

The larger bass have become hook shy and likely numerous of those 6" bass are learning to be hooks smart. Those largest bass were caught once and this taught them to be cautious when humans are around and shy biters especially when they have seen that lure or bait previously. Have you tried fishing with minnows? Use small hooks and let the bass swallow the minnow to make sure you catch it. If you do try minnows, release 1-3 dozen first to get the bass less cautious and more aggressive. Use a low profile with angling. I would even try lying down and fishing so the bass can not see you. Wise bass get conditioned to be cautious when they see a tall figure or an unnatural behaving bait / lure.

You will have another crop of bass soon. I would ask the guy that put those fish in your pond if he would like to pay for a chemical renovation of your pond to let him know you did not appreciate his poor excuse of a favor?
I'm glad to hear the growth is okay. I don't know if this is just me, but the small bass seem really elongated. As in, they don't really look like "real" bass when you look at their profile in the water. I wonder if any of them will reach a decent size by the end of this summer.

I don't really know what I should do about these bass. One one hand, my trout seem very healthy. They are really agressive when I'm fishing for them, and I have caught at least four since the ice went out. They seem fat and large in general, around 26" long. I think, as you mentioned last year, the trout has a massive advantage over the bass until around now. Since we've had such a cold Spring, the trout has been active for months, while the bass were only visible this week. Because of the trout seeming fine, I really don't know what to do about the bass. I don't think it is at all possible for me to catch them all, especially with the larger ones being really smart.

Because of that, would it be best if I just:

1. Leave them be.
2. Catch and keep as many as possible to help them grow.
3. Stock bait fish.

The problem with option 2 is that there are so many that it's really hard to catch even a good percentage of then. They are also pretty careful now about being caught and are so skittish.

Option 3 is okay, but finding fish is a big pain where I am, and I am sort of weary of adding even more fish, considering I don't know what else the person added. He said he also added trout, but those could have been anything. He basically caught fish somewhere else and dropped them in.

I can try the minnow method if I catch some in my pond near the shallows, which is possible.

In terms of the person adding the fish, it's very irritating, although there is nothing I can do about it now. The only way I found out was by seeing him fishing by the pond. We asked him what he was doing there, and he explained the stocking he did. There is a little more to the story that makes what he did somewhat understandable (he thought he had permission).

Anyways, thanks again, Bill, and I am interested to see what you say about the information above.
Here's an update on how the pond is doing in regards to the bass...

Throughout the summer, the bass have been visible everywhere along the shoreline at any time. Some seem to be growing a lot, getting to look more like "real" fish and less like small ones. Some have stayed really small. I would say the biggest of last year's spawn are three times the size of the smallest from that same spawn. I have been fishing for them about once a week, and they eat pretty much every lure and bait. Last week, I took a bigger one to eat, and it was actually tasty. Too small to fillet easily, though.

Throughout the whole summer I have been trying to catch the biggest bass that originally spawned. I used every lure I have, almost, and even live worms. I never got around to buying minnows. I could never even get a big one somewhat interested in the bait. Yesterday, I had been catching smallmouth in a local river using a green hair jig, so I decided to give it a try. Amazingly, a big bass took it as soon as it hit the bottom of a corner of the pond under a tree. I played it too quickly, and it broke my 4lbs flourocarbon line. I went to the same spot and caught another big one and landed it. It was probably around 2lbs. Not that long buy very fat.

At this point, with a few big ones and no sign of a spawn this year, I assume the little bass ate this year's fry, I am thinking of just leaving everything alone as I have been doing. The bass are getting big enough to be eaten, so I will remove some for food and let the rest grow. They also provide fun and fast action fishing in the summer when the trout aren't biting. I will continue to watch and change my "plan" if need be. Thanks for everyone's help here.
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