I am new here. This site seems the best place to get help.

The lake is located in Greene Co, IN, near Bloomfield, which is about 80 miles southwest of Indianapolis. I built the lake in 1998. It is about 30 acres. It was built in a flat valley so the average depth is about 5-6 feet. There is about 4-5 acres only 1-3 feet deep. Near the dam it is about 10 feet. I stocked it with the usual large mouth bass, crappie, blue gill, red ear, channel catfish and pounds of minnows.

It worked wonderfully. For years it was incredible fishing. Catching several large bass was normal. We ate some of the fish. Then about 3-4 years ago, we got coontail in the lake.
It took over except in the deep part. We put amurs in and they cleared it nicely. However, now we are catching bass but seldom any large ones. (The record bass was 9 lb 2 oz caught about 6 years ago.) Periodically we will catch a 4-6 lb. now. I also now realize that the decline was over a period of time, not suddenly. Over the years, there has never been caught a really large blue gill. The largest crappie was 2 lbs, last year. The cat fish are about 7 lbs, tho we seldom catch one since we do not fish for them. Several hang around the dock where I feed them every few days. They get the filet fish left overs.

Can a lake that age and size be restored to its "youth" when it produced so many large bass? I had not fished before I built this lake. I realize now that I have been spoiled!!!
When it was at its best, I once caught 2 four pound LMB on a single cast with my chug bug lure. Really, the preacher and my son were with me!

Thank you. Tooger Smith

Welcome to PondBoss. What sizes and quantities of bass are you catching regularly now? Are there lots of smaller bass? And the bluegills...what are you catching, size wise?

30 acres is a large BOW. It may be time to call in a pro and shock the lake to see what you have, or don't have.

Your lake is showing its age and lack of proper management for consistently producing large bass. Bass can easily overpopulate a lake this size unless lots of small bass are removed and the forage fish monitored for proper balance. Many new water bodies go through the same scenario. It is all about predator - prey balance.

The common larger bass were cropping the mid-size bluegill dramatically limiting the number that could become big BG. As the bass population changes from larger individuals of original stockers (now dying off - natural mortality) to numerous offspring later generation smaller bass the BG population will gradually become larger and larger individuals due to more mid-size BG surviving to continue growing toward large sizes. Managing a 30 ac lake in reality requires quite a bit of work and knowledge of fishery balance / management if a relatively steady state or special balance is desired. Many factors influence the fishery which is always changing. The trick is to monitor the constantly changing predator-prey balance and make needed adjustments as time passes.

Once a water body as big as 30 acres gets out of balance, it often takes a significant amount of effort, knowledge, and often money to shift it back to the original goals; in this case larger bass.

Just to add to what Bill and Sprkplug said, yes, you can turn the lake around, but I don't know if you can do it via angling only.

Via angling, what I'd do is this:

Get a log book, a good digital scale and a ruler/tape measure. EVERY fish you catch, record it's length, weight and species. There are relative weight charts that show whether a fish is underweight or overweight (overweight is a good thing).

If the bass are running out of food (bass food has to be plentiful AND the correct size) the best way to turn things around is by removing mouths i.e. removing bass. Depending on how stunted the LMB are, that could be 30 pounds per surface acre, which is a LOT of fish via angling.

The quickest way to get it turned around is to have a boat electroshock the lake when water temps are in the upper 60's and the majority of fish are shallower. If during the beginning of the survey, the LMB are stunted, have them change from just observing weights and lengths to keeping the underweight LMB out of the lake.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, but that's enough to give you and idea of what needs to happen.

T.Smith - Do you have any idea how many man hours per year are spent fishing in this 30 ac lake?? To make the necessary changes by angling it will take a lot of hours of angling to remove enough fish to see results very quickly within two or even 3 years. In the meantime the bass are spawning each year to compensate for bass removed. Managing a 30 acre fishery takes a concerted effort. Without enough annual effort or adjustments (artificial or natural) the lake inhabitants will follow the natural path represented by the trend of the current fishery. IMO it will take some professional help to maintain the goal of large bass. One of several options to be seriously considered is to add a predator to randomly remove smaller bass.

Can you drain the lake? did you have that feature installed when you built it? and how does the lake fill??

The last few weeks I have been weighing and measuring the bass. We caught about 20 Friday weighing from 1/5 to 2/10. I have a chart to compare and all but one were on schedule or above. We caught 3 BG, all about 4 inches or so. My son iced fished for BG last winter and caught several but none were very big. Fishing is about over for us this year, but I will keep track better next year. Thanks for your thoughts.

I have come to understand I need to remove more LMB. Part of my excuse is that 30 years ago I had a 5 ac lake to which I gave some people permission to fish anytime they wanted to do so. However, soon they brought a friend who then thought he had permission to fish anytime, he brought a friend, etc. One morning, wife and I awoke to three strangers fishing near our bedroom patio door. So this lake is an invitation only lake.
Perhaps a good way would be to have a tourney for dads and kids for two or three times next spring and summer. That would be fun to watch.

I will check the water chemistry too. (I am a retired chemistry teacher. I can handle that!!)

As an old science teacher, could I make my own shocker? For those of us who like to tinker....

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I had no idea when I built this lake it would take so much work. But there is fun too. I never fish alone, I always have two or three old geezers along!!

I could siphon the lake down, but to empty it would leave a stinking mess. We live "on" the lake and we use the lake water for all our house hold water including drinking water. If there were a way to use the fish, then perhaps I could lower it three or four feet if that would do any good.

The lake fills from about 300 acres above it. It is all pasture and woods, no grain farming. So we do get "fresh" and clean water periodically. There are more deer in the woods than cattle in the pasture. The over flow has been as much as thirty feet wide and 2.5 feet deep. But normally, the 15 inch overflow pipe handles it.

I see where talipia are used as food. But I don't want to have to do that each year.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Lowering a few feet would concentrate fish, making shocking and angling far more effective.

Tournament ideas - Boy Scouts (I wonder if a merit badge is available in fisheries?) etc.

Once you learn about the current population dynamics of the LMB and forage species then you can set goals of what needs to be done and what options can be used to accomplish those goals. First goal is to establish a baseline of the current fishery in terms of species present, size distribution of each species and approximate density of each specie. 30 acres is a lot of water to manage for a specific type of fishery. Think of it as a 30acre garden. Lots to do to keep it the way you want it productive. There are several to numerous members here with water size similar to yours. We can provide some good advice for management options or refer you to additional help options.

To Bill, esshup and all of you, thank you. This will be both fun and challenging. Boy Scout Tourney sounds good. I thought of church groups also.

With winter coming, is there anything I can do now besides check the water chemistry? It would seem it is too late to establish the baseline of what and how much fish are present.

Chief ("girlfriend" of 48 years) and I go to SW Louisiana for the winter. (Jennings) This is not a normal snowbird destination, but I grew up there. Married a yankee, so been freezing every winter for 40 years. But she is a good one! My son stays and lives nearby, so he could do some "stuff" if anything can/should be done this winter for the lake.

Sharing is a good thing. I can see why some of you have been here several years. Too bad I did not know about you several years ago also. Perhaps one day I will be intelligent enough to contribute instead of just "taking".

Not much to do with the lake once it gets to November to April. When do you return to IN? This winter you can access the forum and prepare a management plan for the future. Maybe even your goal will change by next April once you learn more about fish management and what is possible. I and other members will have ideas for you to consider this winter. I doubt that your water chemistry has changed very much since the lake filled. I suspect the water is relatively hard with good alkalinity (80-100mg/L) which makes the lake naturally productive - pretty typical for most IN impounded waters. You will want to build or buy a secchi disk and start monitoring the water transparency which often reflects the general productivity. Productivity governs the carrying capacity and amount of fish that usually comprises standing stock. With this info and your goals the amount of fish annually harvested can be estimated.
Disk reading times 3 or 3.5 = euphotic zone Hanson 1962., Round 1981.
Definition, Use, Homemade
http://www.secchidipin.org/whatis_secchi_disk.htm
purchase
http://www.secchidipin.org/secprice.htm
How to Use
http://rmbel.info/how-to-use-a-secchi-disk/
Homemade Instructions
http://www.secchidipin.org/makedisk.htm

In the meantime, have you read through this lengthy thread from our Archives section about managing LMB? There is a lot of great diverse info there to read, study, contemplate, and ask questions about while you are in LA.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255372#Post255372

I suspect you might refine your goals for the fishery once you learn more about predation, prey, balance and the possible options for a 30 acre lake.

Winter.........

Ice fish. Continue to record species caught, weight and length.

Verify depth of BOW if not 100% sure. Systematically drill holes and map the BOW for depth.

Do more reading here on how the different fish species interact with each other, what is and is not possible to do in Northern ponds (vs. Southern ponds).

Go to the Pond Boss store and order Raising Trophy Bass.
http://www.pondboss.com/item.asp?id=10&r=store%2Easp%3Fc%3D8

If you want to read and add a college level textbook or two to your library, look into:
Introduction to Wildlife and Fisheries an Intefrated Approach by David Willis, Charles Scarlet and Lester Flake

and

Small Impoundement Management in North America by J. Wesley Neal and David Willis.

Also, if you are going to have some time in Feb, you might want to look into this:

Pond Boss Conference

We plan to get back the last of April. Came back too early last year. Bad to go from 80 to 30 in day!!!

I will do the reading. Two years ago, I read 30 books and gained 10 lbs.... that is what Cajun food (esp crawfish) can do for you. Last year she made me work more remodeling a house.

I will make/buy a secchi disk and use it.

I will get my son to ice fish if the winter allows.

Thanks.

I live 25 minutes from Bloomfield. Ice fishing is usually iffy this far south, last year being an exception.

Is your son comfortable, and experienced on hardwater?

I helped remove 1250 pounds of skinny and stunted LMB on a 17 acre lake this past spring and summer near the Bloomington/Normal area. Twelve people on 5 weekends plus when there was time to wet lines in smaller groups made a huge dent! The lake had been unmanaged for about 15 years.

sprkplug... my son is 42 so he ought to know....but then he is just a kid still.
We may have to get together next summer being you are that close.

rainman...this is probably why the lake got the way it is, because we did not fish it more than 18 man hours per week over the years. I am learning. Does one have to stock tilapia each year? I will take you up on that after we remove a lot of fish next spring and summer.

Take care.

Tilapia depend on your goals. One southern Indiana customer is wanting ONLY algae control without the added predator growth. He stocks every other year. For muck removal, one or two very heavy stockings work well. They do die late each fall, but that is how they work the magic as a management tool.

Tooger, I see no reason why you couldn't make your own shock boat. I looked into it once but found, for the price, I could have my pond shocked for the next 20 years.

Making a shock boat is complicated mechanical and electrical to do it right without creating electrical hazards. For casual use it would be cheaper to hire shocking done rather than invest in building a standard fish shocking system. If you can create enough man hours to fish, sample, monitor, and knowledgeably manage the fishery your lake shocking would not be necessary more than once every 3 to 6 years. And after that only when the fishery appears unbalanced and in need of accessory adjustment due to lack of proper harvest which is where you are "at" now. Proper management is the key component to consistent long term success.

Making a full boat shocker may not be practical. It would not be the first time I make something that did not work. Most recent were some turtle traps that I finally called turtleless traps. I did not catch one turtle this summer. I will have plenty to do this winter!!

A friend who just retired from the DNR, suggested that I might want to get someone to catch some nice female bass (males too?) from another pond/lake to give some new genetics in the lake. Anyone with ideas or experience? Can/do fish inbreed to puny like cattle do?

My science was chemistry...we only deal with "dead" stuff!

Thanks.

Catching nice female bass from another lake does not give you any insight to their genetic history. All you know is it is a nice fish, but you don't know if the fish is 4 yrs old and fast / good grower or 9yrs old and a slow grower. For background, a 2 yr old very well fed fat bass in an excellent forage habitat with good genetics can weigh 5+ lbs. Some on this forum have documented it (Greg Grimes for one; see post below next).

It is pretty evident that your problem is too may 'hogs' feeding at the trough - over predation due to too many predators eating too much forage for the production capacity of your pond. It is a common problem. Initial growth of the bass was really good due to the correct number of bass relative to the amount of forage available. Also brand new ponds tend to be slightly more productive fish wise compared to a middle age or old age pond. This is often due I think to primarily a proper balance of predator and prey which often gets "out of wack" as the pond ages without proper mangement. Plus the productivity in an older pond often tends to shift to more a higher plant community compared to a plankton based community. Plankton based communities tend to be most productive 'fish wise'. First stocked fish in new ponds always seem to grow best compared to later generations and I think this is primarily due to changes in balance, community structure, and fish density.

In addition the advice from your DNR guy for adding new genetics is IMO primarily for ponds/lakes that have old fish that have interbred for many years (30-50). Your lake is too new to have bass genetics problems which was proven by the early growth traits of the first bass stocking which turned out very good and was not that long ago. The DNR guy should have realized this if he had a good fishery - genetics - zoology and population ecology background. IMO be careful of what you believe from so called "experts". Always get a second opinion which is what this forum is very good for - good second opinions and diverse ideas. Then you be the judge for what best fits your situation.

PS You may have made some things that were not practical in the past, but building an improper shock boat without proper instruction of how to operate it can easily be deadly. Your wife or your son's wife could easily be a widow due to a bad electro fish shock boat.

Below is a little more detailed information from a thread about expected and actual LMB growth that was located in the Archives for LMB Management. One can grow bass from fingerling to even 5 lbs in one year in a south central or southern pond due to a longer growing season. However growth can be exceptional for your region providing quality bass from good brood stock are stocked into a proper forage 'rich' pond. Unlimited food does wonders for fish growth.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=367415#Post367415

Thanks, Sir. You make sense. Lord willing, there will be fewer "hogs" at the trough next year!!!

Grab a mower or other piece of machinery that needs to be winterized and head over to Total Outdoor Power in Freedom, Indiana and bend Tonys ear.

When it comes to fish or ponds...bend away. If I can help, I'm happy to do so. I don't mind getting wet, muddy, or cold, I like it when my hands and clothes smell like fish, I'm happy to bait your hook AND take your fish off, and I don't mind getting out to open and close the gate.

One thing though...if Rainman or esshup pay you a visit, and/or if future plans call for a shock boat, I want a piece of the action. I would hate to miss out on an adventure of that caliber.

Thanks for the shout out Scott!

I don't know why but I've never fed my CC's fileted fish carcasses (sp). Will the CC's eat everything you give them?

I'll tell you one thing though..... we've got some of the fattest coons around here from me throwing fish carcasses out in the fields ....

My catfish fight over them. However, it dawned on me (a little late) that I should have been throwing the carcasses to the crawfish in my crawfish ponds. Being a Cajun from birth and 18 years in the SW LA, I did build two little ponds to raise them up here. Up here you use them for bait, but down there we eat them!! I've gotten three "messes" this year. The full meal deal requires about 15 lbs....I am getting hungry even as I type. Lord willing, in about a month they should be ready in LA. (15 lbs live weight!!)

Speaking of catfish, we had stocked them as scavengers... was this right, or should be try to remove them? Do the turtles do the same either harm or good?

Again, I appreciate this site. Maybe next year some of you can come help me rebalance the lake. Sounds like a dirty job, but someone has to do it!!

Take care.

Since fish really don't typically have mouths to tear fish apart, they have to eat the fish whole (at least the ones that are usually found here in North America). Once catfish (I'm talking about channel cats here) reach about 3#, they compete directly with LMB for food, switching their diet over to mostly live fish.

So, it all depends on your goals on whether to keep them in the pond or not!

If your goal is to raise as large of a LMB in the pond as possible, then they are taking up space, and eating food that the LMB could utilize better to meet your goal.

Turtles will scavenge. Any live fish they take are already near dead....or just really stupid.

Larger bass (over 1-2#) that are relocated rarely do very well in a new environment. Most likely because they do not have a hiding spot staked out or know how to stalk/hunt well in a new environment.

Rainman
Nobody told the bass that were "dumped into my pond" that they wouldn't do good,fact they are doing to good! Eating up everything in sight. Lol laugh to keep from crying.

Pat W

Quite a bit of difference putting LMB in where none are established over adding adults into an area with other established adults...sux your water got "helped out", Pat!

Just a little bump in the road . Every one I catch is 10# CNBG that will feed other stuff. So I will pick at them till I get a handle on this problem. Plus gonna put 1000 CNBG more into the mix


Pat W

Greetings everyone....I am back from La. Actually 5 weeks now, but have been busy building a house with my son.

Regarding the lake.... I have come to the conclusion that the main reason my catching of large bass has diminished is that the channel catfish I put in (in the original stocking 17 years ago)have taken over. So the first thing I am doing is working on getting rid of the catfish. I have put in two troutlines. To date we have caught 46 of the big cats. They all weigh in at about 6-7 lbs. (We have also caught some 12 or so large snappers and at least that many little yellow bellies.) I am thinking of having church groups come and fish for catfish. Some one had mentioned boy scouts. Any suggestions?

Also, are the big catfish territorial? I started the troutlines near the dock. That slacked off, so I moved it across the lake to a new spot. The next morning, I had 14 big cats on a 24 hook troutline. The day after, I baited the line again. The next morning there was only one yellow belly. So, do the catfish tend to stay on one area of the lake? Another thing, those I use to feed at the dock, we have caught. And now, nothing comes to eat the feed. What do you think?

Again, thanks for all your input. Learning is fun.

Tooger

What made you think it was the catfish taking over??? My conclusion was when u had the coontail u got some heavy successful bass spawns then when u put in those stupid grass carp (like they did in my 60acre lake here in Fishers In) they got rid of all the habitat now you have all this exposed forage and all those recent bass and they eat up all their food and start to stunt out. The catfish don't help but if you had enough forage it wouldn't matter cause there would be plenty of food to go around, still think u should shock and remove bass.

Now that is a thought.
Wouldn't it still help to get rid of the catfish?
I am thinking about the shock route.
Thanks for your input. Any thought on the "grouping" of the catfish?
Interestingly enough, 14 was the number caught at the dock.

Tooger

FWIW I read an article/or saw a video by Bob Lusk not too long ago that catfish send out some kind of warning signal when they get caught to the other cats. Maybe the others just stay away from that area for a while?

Tooger-thats what happened to my lake in 2005-2007 my lake had lots of water stargrass (60acre gravel pit) fishing was good bass very fat, homeowners wanted all weeds gone enter 250 lovely grass carp + chemicals, weeds all killed. The next 2 years fishing was off the charts, why best guess was those bass had lots of easy meals as tons of black crappie, gizzard shad, bluegill had no place to hide people were catching 4-7lbers easily. This lasted 2 summers then all of a sudden no big fish just an occasional 5lber, now its 2015 tonight I caught 20 bass in an hour all 12-15 inches and kept them all. Having lake shocked next week to get this thing fixed, really sad.

Actually Ive had grass carp ruin my favorite fishing lake as a child, a 30 acre lake in Terre Haute and now they have ruined my current lake, those fish are a complete disaster and should be banned.

Grass carp are a tool that has to be managed and used judiciously. They don't have an off button so they have to be managed/eliminated as needed.

They're about like tequila. Ya gotta know when to apply the brakes.

I'm with Dave. Fish management is just that - management. If one is of the "dump em' in and forget em'" mindset, there will probably be issues. Grass carp absolutely have a role to fill in a great many ponds and lakes.

200 grass carp are VERY difficult to remove, they are wary, smart, hook shy, and big. There is no science to them unless someone would like to show my a scientific journal article it's all anecdotal, but I could be wrong. Nobody can even tell me how long they live, I hear 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 20+ years who knows. I hear they become less efficient as they age is that proven. I would like to know of some lakes where Grass Carp were introduced and the fishing got better for the next 10 years and how many were introduced, the BOW size and the type of weed they were put in to control, based on what you hear and when you talk to fisheries experts like I did hear with Indiana DNR they are a pure disaster.

I personally believe that shotguns cure a lot of problems. But not grass carp.

I have used a 22 quite effectively with a fish feeder. When they come up to feed, pop them from a distance. I personally prefer calibri sans poudre.

I personally believe that shotguns solve a lot of problems. But not grass carp.

I have used a 22 quite effectively with a fish feeder. When they come up to feed, pop them from a distance. I personally prefer calibri sans poudre.

Not that I have ever seen.

So I just looked up "how many grass carp to stock/acre" and found anywhere from 5-10, ok so in my 60 acre lake that would be 300-600 well listen I'm telling you they put in 225-250 and there has not been a single strand of vegetation for 8 years. So what is it? I'll tell you what it is it's a pure guess sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, sorry but I'm a dentist and that's not how I treat my patients or in this case "manage" a lake. Grass carp are a way for hatcheries to make money.

Dig through the archives here. Grass carp can be an effective, biological control for certain types of aquatic growth when used accordingly. I have absolutely noticed they slow down on control when they get older, which is why most recommend removing those fish and replacing with smaller, younger individuals.

As a fellow Hoosier, I too have had many a discussion with the officials in our IDNR. I would only say to be sure and seek out other, professional opinions. I wouldn't place all of my eggs into the IDNR's basket....my experience has been they seem a few years removed from modern practice.

I understand that you are angry, and upset. But you portray your opinion as fact, rather than opinion. I would suggest reading through the archives, and making an educated decision. Are grass carp for every BOW and every situation? Of course not, no more than a root canal fits the bill for every patient. But it remains an option in some cases, no?

Yes you are correct very subjective world we live in, however I'm just asking for an article where Grass Carp were a real success and helped a fishery become better, not where they saved money for homeowners who didn't want to pay for chemicals, not an article where they successfully managed the weeds, I would like an article if not numerous articles of where introduction of Grass Carp resulted in more and bigger fish being caught while maintaining a nice balance of weed growth. Most times I think what happens is certain homeowner says I want to "control" the weeds, lake manager says ok let's put some grass carp in, presto weeds are all gone every last one homeowner and lake manager look like heroes when now they have just set that lake up for massive algae blooms, stunted fish, dirtier water, did homeowner know that was he informed, I doubt it.

I think it might depend upon the goals for the fishery? If trophy bass are the objective, then the eradication of plants might lead to lack of growth, after the LMB decimate the forage base. If trophy BG are in the works, then I'm a fan of reducing plant growth with extreme prejudice, and GC can help in that regard when used appropriately.

You're right, defining one's goals is paramount to success. And in many cases, I do believe GC are utilized as weed control without considering their impact on the fishing as a whole.

Would it make a difference what vegetation you are dealing with? My pond got a very early infestation of Curly leafed pond weed. I put in 4 grass carp last year - one died. The pond weed went from bad to really bad this year. I added 4 more GC. I am not after eradication but in my pond (about 3/4 of an acre) there are probably way too many hiding places. I am hoping for a balance where they can keep the weed down but not entirely eliminate it. I also have some rock structure, some pine trees, cattails and bulrushes that supply more cover. I never knew how complex an issue it was to manage a pond. I'm a bit overwhelmed with the information I find here but I'm trying to absorb the things I need to know for my situation.

If you have other underwater weeds in the pond that you want to keep, a light dosage of Fluridone in mid fall or early spring will knock back a lot if not all of the CLPW without affecting the other plants.

I'm not sure if anything would give you the conclusions you're wanting. "Not wanting to pay for chemicals"? What if a lake owner simply does not WANT to add a chemical? Chemicals have risks! Grass Carp have risks! YOUR version of success may be the same definition of total failure to another. If someone hires another to help control or manage a lake/pond, the person hired would (or should) determine as clearly as possible what that owner wants. EVERY lake and every owner are different...

If you want "larger bass growth", reducing weed cover chemically or with Grass carp will accomplish that, short term. Less plant cover means easier eating for LMB, BUT, it also means the forage fish have no place to hide and grow....so unless you spend big $$$ adding forage fish, that extra growth will be short lived and probably reversed soon. No ONE thing creates bigger fish for a sustained length of time.

Thanks Esshup, I have so much CLPW I couldn't tell you if there is ANY other submerged plant in there. I just ordered one of those weed cutters you toss out so I cant open up some lanes and maybe a small spot I can jump in when the temps hit 98. My homemade cutter brings up what seems to be either CLPW or FA. It's made from welded up from scrap metal and old bucksaw blades, it gets loaded with weeds and then just slides over the tops, time consuming to clear the blades and multiple passes needed to clear a very small area. I will keep your suggestion in mind as I monitor what the GC are doing.

I'm neither a pond Pro nor professional writer.

I've never read an article re GC resulting in bigger bass. There may or may not be one somewhere. Nor have I ever read any published article about GC ruining a fishery.

However, I have, on 2 occasions, used them to clean up absolute infestations in neighbors unfishable ponds. Neither of those cases, that I'm aware of, saw any decline in the size of the fish. Actually, it allowed the bass to actually find prey and increased the numbers and sizes of all fish.

In another case I helped mostly eliminate them using a 22. After vegetation was mostly eliminated they became pellet hogs.

I just noticed in a post above that you initially said 250 GC + chemicals. It's hard to know what to attribute the loss of vegetation to. Chemicals can destroy vegetation a lot faster than GC. Every BOW is SO different from the next. There is a lot of science involved but I think it is art to process all the variables of fishing pressure, species in the environment, habitat, fertility, structure, depth, forage, stunting, overpopulation, water quality, exposure to sunshine, wind, vegetative species, steps taken to deal with problems, how draconian those measures are, goals for the fishery, the time you have to commit to it, whether you have help, whether the help you get is actually helpful, the size of the BOW, on and on. What I've concluded is that it is a constant process of measuring, observing, learning, applying what you've learned, monitoring the results, repeat, change and so forth. I don't think there is one formula that fits all cases, but there are big strategies that fit certain goals. I have really had my eyes opened by reading all the thoughtful posts of the people on this forum.

Ok here is another positive note on GC. I have a 1 acre pond only but I have put 5 GC in my pond in 2010. I have American pond weed and chara. I was told to put 12 in there I was like noooo way! There easy to add hard to take away! So I didn't want all my weeds gone just wanted some control of them. Well it's worked for me. I think who ever put the GC in your lake put way to many of them. They should a have started out with like 100 of them and waited to see what happened.

It's the whole pendulum thing. Yours is way to far one way so you want to correct and get it back in the middle and you end up swinging all the way to the other side! Now your in trouble again! It's easy to do and frustrating. I have learned in my short time SMALL changes can have BIG effects on your BOW! I learned this the hard way myself.

RC

I never noticed grass carp being hard to catch. As a kid I learned to fish by catching carp at Silver Lake in Rehoboth Beach DE. That 60 acre lake is 3-5' deep the whole way through and has BG, Gizzard Shad, LMB, Eels, and some of the biggest grass carp you will ever see. There is absolutely no vegetation in the lake and if you take bread and make dough balls and put them on a big hook 1' under a bobber you are catching carp pretty easily, especially on the footbridge where parents take their kids to throw bread to the ducks and end up fattening up the carp. In the spring they splash around the shallows in their mating ritual and would be EASY targets for anyone with a gun. Silver lake also has a phenomenal LMB population, a few years ago the O2 levels dropped and you could see 5-8lb bass struggling ALL over the shorelines, there were so many big bass and you could just walk in and grab them, it was amazing... A few days later a rain storm restored the oxygen and the lake began to recover, three years later and it's back to producing 5+lb bass routinely. I think it is mostly due to the gizzard shad.

Rocky:

Are you sure that the fish you were catching were Grass Carp?


and not a common or German carp?


(Images just yanked and pasted from the interweb)

Greetings again....

Been working hard on the house. Off today... so I have some time to chat.

I am making progress with catfish removal. At least there has been nothing except big ones, so I assume they did not reproduce. Up to 51. Something is removing the bait on the trout line without getting caught. Should I use trebles?

And I did shoot one large Amur. Question: Anyone know someone who would like to come to Bloomfield and "hunt" Amurs?

Another is about electro shock to see what we actually have. Who does that and what kind of cost? I see that I can buy some kind of shocker for $150 or $250. Anyone "been there done that"?

Thanks for the help.

I think good quality, safe, dependable fully equipped fish electroshockers cost a few to several thousand dollars to above $10K. Be leery of low cost units and with all electroshockers have your health insurance paid up since without training and experience your wife could become a widow. It is not something to be doing without safety training and understanding the specifics of water quality on the effects of voltage and current on both fish and humans. Safety devices on electroshokers are imperative.

Grass carp are the ISIS of the pond world kill them all.

This is not true. Grass Carp are a tool and if used correctly they can and will help, but like anything if it's used wrong it can be bad.

I mean if you put 260 tiger muskies in your pond you would have issues also. Just a different kind of issue.

Everything is relative in a pond as to what and how you use it.

That's just like saying I hate snakes kill them all! Well I don't like them either but with out them what do you get? Way to many frogs and mice running all over the place! I made that mistake already!

There is a kinda of catch 22 to everything you do to your pond. Do this and this happens, do that other thing and then this will happen. You just have to decide which one you want to put up with more!

Sorry getting off subject here!

RC

Now that I see the difference I think I have been mistaking common carp for grass carp my whole life...