I want to start by saying how informative and enjoyable I have found the first 2/3 of the BC/BC/CB1 big male BG articles in PB.

Now a question: What are each of your end goals for your big male BG, besides the shear pride and thrill of growing/catching them?

Cecil, I figure you're making money with them from taxidermy purposes of one ilk or another.

Bruce, are you growing the sires for the next generation of big Condello-strain BG?

Bill, I've got no idea what you might be doing with yours, but suspect any answer you provide will be interesting.

Knowing Bruce personally, he has no purpose, it is just a disease that he has been overcome with. :p

Great question Theo and I agree 200%. Thanks guys.

Anyone planning on inviting some of the BG to dinner? Nothing like pure bred grain fed steer --upps -- I meant male BG . Are they worth to much for the table and is there an opportunity for sales? Plans ?

Theo,

Well as you surmised my motive is mostly profit as a one pound or better pure strain bluegill is worth a minimum of $60.00 a piece for me. The bigger they are over a pound the more I can get. I could see getting at least $200.00 for 2 lb. bluegill from a replica maker.

As some of you may know, an honest to goodness 1 lb. or bigger bluegill up here in the north is as rare as a 6 lb. or greater bass.

What I like about potentially growing and selling big bluegills is their relative small size to be considered a trophy class fish compared to the other species I raise. Case in point: A one pound bluegill takes much less money in shipping to ship than a 6 lb. bass. (Increases profit as I incorporate the same shipping cost into all my fish to simplify shipping.) Also the relatively smaller size compared to the other large gamefish means I can hold more numbers before I reach carrying capacity in my ponds.

Not sure about Bruce and Bill's motives but the following is something to consider:

I know of NO fish producer that is actually selectively breeding pure strain bluegills for fast growth. Not one! All the ones I know of either just periodially seine bluegills out of ponds for sale to customers (many don't even artifically feed them), or purchase them from othe producers which do the same. If someone (like Bruce) would selectively come up with a line of bluegills that grows rapidly, and to large size, on a regular basis, by selectively culling fast growers, using good genetics etc. I personally believe they could market them. Give them a name or something like "Bruce's Nebraska Mega Bluegills" and you are good to go.

The way the market is now if you bought say 100 5 to 7 inch bluegills, you have no idea if they are all the same age as the grower probably just seined and graded them or his supplier did.

Why would you want to eat a fish that not only is uncommon for being so large but may carry the genes for more larger fish? Why not eat the smaller fish or females as they probably taste better anyway?

CB1 :

The second paragraph was an attempt at humor and a comparison of trophy BG to pure bred cattle. The question about sales and plans was intended to inquire about a possible market for the extras as brood fish to pond owners or hatcheries.

Just like cattle, when you are actively improving the strain, you eat the culls.

Mmmmm ... culls!

Sorry! I'm so used to people telling me they would have eaten my record perch I guess it's an automatic reation of indignation!

Theo asks: “What are each of your end goals for your big male BG, besides the shear pride and thrill of growing/catching them?” Theo, I think this question is just a sneaky way of trying to get a preview of Part 3 of Behemoth Bluegills by Cody, Condello and Baird.

Part 3 of Raising Behemoth Bluegill (Management) discussess among other things a few reasons for using, recognizing, and selecting male bluegills, such as: A. improving existing BG populations, B. reducing competition while improving body condition, C. enhancing size structure of BG in a pond, E. using the males to exert a social influence among existing BG, and F. their use as a bonus fish.


In addition my interests in male bluegill are numerous.

1. I can have the benefits of bluegills AND not have to put up with the problems of over population and slow growth.

2. Feed trained bluegills typically hang out higher in the water column than yellow perch. Since the bluegills are first to start eating the floating fish food, they provide signals to the deeper dwelling perch that it is feeding time. BG in a pond may help a larger percentage of the perch "stay on" fish pellets.

3. I think that a few bluegill cause the yellow perch to feed slightly more aggressively due to competition compared to if no bluegill are present.

4. I have discovered that a few Bluegills in a yellow perch pond function as “teacher fish” or examples and help newly introduced fed trained perch to find the feeding area. I think bluegills feeding at the surface can help train my young perch or, hesitant but willing perch, to learn to eat fish food. BG may also help train perch to be less shy at coming to the surface for food.

5. Occasionally I like a few bluegill fillets mixed in with a main dinner serving of yellow perch.

6. A few male bluegills mixed into another type of fishery provide a little diversity to the fish catching and enjoyment.

7. When I catch a bluegill it is a lot more “fun” (for me, maybe not the fish) if it is 10” or longer.

8. I really appreciate the quality of a trophy bluegill that is longer than 10”.

9. Cecil makes a very good point that few if any fish farms market high quality, fast growing, and premium bluegills. Very few hatcheries in Michigan even sell pure strain bluegill. I think there is a market for premium fast growing bluegill. Bruce has spent several years developing and is continuing selective breeding of a strain of bluegill that is premium. A living product like this takes time and has good value and can demand a premium price due to the time effort that it takes to reach a high quality end product (brood stock). The time and space factor is probably why a lot of fish farms have not done this. The fish farm can make more money using the pond for raising other higher profit fingerlings compared to the “average”, “run of the mill” bluegill. Most people who buy pond fish do not realize that all BG are not just BG. I would pay a premium for some BG from Bruce’s BG Farm.

CB1 :

When I went back and read my attempt at humor it was neither very good nor clear. To many tin foil hats around.

Bill your last point (as well as CB1's) was what I was asking about. I know of no one down here that grows BG to over 6in. for sale , hatchery or otherwise. While there are some good genetics they are not selected like Bruce's. Plus I know Bruce's word is his bond and to me that from a hatchery is priceless. I would pay double or triple for that quality and trusted service. Now if I could figure a way to get some here when he is ready to sell.

American Sportfish's development of the tiger bass is similar in concept. I wonder how many extra fish they have sold as a result. However to my knowledge they do not grow them out to trophy size for sale or as brood fish , but only to about 10-12 in. and 1lb.+.

Here is a question for you. What do you think about this idea. On a brand new pond 1 acre (empty) rather than stock 2in BG of uncertain genetics (from a good hatchery) I am thinking about putting in 200 adult BG 60 % female and 40% male and let them create the forage base. Then I will know about the genetics and that there are no GSF or HBG. 1000 2 in. BG @ .25 = $ 250. While I would pay more at that rate the larger BG could be priced at over a $ and would be a steal.Unknown 3-5 in BG go for 60 cents. To a select market I think you could sell Bruce's BG (or ones like them) for $2.50 each at 5in. That would be like 3-4lb. tiger bass at $ 10 . But again I am not in the hatchery business.

While thinking about it I may try Condello BG males and cross them with CNBG females and call them -- I am open for a name.

A good example of coming up with a name for a particular fish to market it is the name "Georgia Giant" that Ken Holyoke uses for his particular hybrid bluegill.

CB1 I was editing my prior post when you replied. Take a look at the question at the bottom. I don't want readers to think you were suggesting GG as a name for a cross between a Condello BG male and a CNBG female.

Sneaky? Moi?

I never would have thought of points #2 or #3.

Your thoughts on BG value as a cross-species feed trainer are very interesting. I used feed trained BG to "teach" non-feed trained BG (training status of both groups is my best guess based on body condition, fish by-product content, and location of origin in my pond) to take pellets in a tank - it only took a couple of days for the non-feed trained BG to mimic their fat relatives. It had occurred to me that BG might serve the same function when feed-training RES; since you saw value to the practice with YP, I believe I will definitely try it with Redears.

Theo- Grasshopper, there is a lot to learn. Patience is a virtue.

I think at least a few RES would at least try artificial feed if they saw BG readily eating it. At this point, the main trick is to make sure the pellet is VERY palatable and is not rejected by RES based on taste or texture. I think the pellet then needs, at least initially, to be softened and of high quality with maybe some krill flavoring. If that occurs then a high percentage of RES should take to artificial food.

B Cody, re your statement that very few MI hatcheries even sell pure strain BG. Are they pushing hybrids?

Dave :

Don't know if Bill was focusing on "pure" or HBG but here is a bit of info via ealong. I gather that up north BG stunting is a much bigger problem than down here. Bob did comment at DFW that he had encountered the problem on a number of occasions (and its result of no LMB recruitment) and how he fixed it.

ealong59
Lunker

From "Managing Michigan Ponds for Sport Fishing":

Largemouth bass and bluegills
BEWARE of this combination! It's a favorite in the South, where it can work, but it has been oversold in the North. Bass are supposed to control bluegills by predation, but it doesn't work that way in or climate The bluegills overpopulate the pond, and then both bass and bluegill have stunted growth. If you want bass and bluegills anyway, give the bass 1-2 years head start in growth and spawning. Then they may have an effect on the bluegill.

Which is why they recommend HBG over bluegill if you want to fish the bluegill.

Hi! I've been gone for a day or two on an errand for Dr. Willis. He selfishly needed some pictures of nice redears, so he FORCED to go catch some for Pond Boss pictures.

My goals are as follows:

1. Have something in my ponds that is "special". I'd like to be able to catch something that I can't find in any other pond around here--and that would be huge bluegill.

2. Give my Dad a place to play, where he can expect to catch a Master Angler sized fish whenever he wants.

3. Eat the culls. Yes, I'm serious. The smaller, slower growing fish and the females are fabulous eating. Probably my favorite.

Making money is not really a concern. It would be hard to grow enough big ones to justify the time spent. Dentistry pays better. Therefore, any Pond Boss members who want to try my fish would not have to pay a premium price, although I agree that if I weren't the one growing them, I would willingly pay $2.50 apiece for the same 6 inch fish knowing where they came from.

More later....

I know Dave better than that. No doubt you two have some secret project going wrt RES. Lets see hmmm -- What is in that spare RAS or is it a new secret pond? What about a PS x RES for cold climates with large size. Man that would be a neat looking fish and did you say they were all males.

Pumpkinseed/Redear hybrids? Where do I sign up? Those could be gorgeous!

Bruce, I like all of your goals – especially #2.

He’s one lucky Dad and Happy Mother’s day to the ladies in your life.

DD1
They are and have been for some time.

That RE/Pumpkinseed hybrid idea sounds like a winner.

A comment on some of the discussion about the bluegill-LMB combination in northern ponds. This fish combination works great in northern ponds where the fish are managed. Good sized LMB and bluegills can be dependably produced to yield an annual crop. But to do this one has to manage the fishery and not let nature do it for you. Goals of trophy bass, trophy panfish, or generalist fishery have to be established. The pond owner then has to work the pond as they work a garden paying attention to the crop, how it is developing and at times thin or adjust the numbers. If this is done and things are kept in a reasonable balance, very good results can be obtained with the bass-bluegill combination even in Michigan. Many pond owners do not take the time to learn what needs to be done to properly manage a fish pond. The pond owner just has to take some time and learn how to "work" in the pond (garden) and a quality bass-bluegill fishery is very possible in the northern pond. The Michigan Sport Fishery MSU Extension bulletin takes a generalist approach, observes the past stocking trends and successes and then assumes a pond stocking philosophy of stock it, forget it, and then fish it. This philosophy does not work in very many instances regardles of what fishes are stocked.

Bill,

It works in Southern ponds also. The gardening example is most appropriate.


This weekend I was lucky to catch the CNBG of my lifetime...but had no camera, no tape measure, no scales, and no way of transporting the fish safely back to those tools. I had to decide whether to kill the fish for measurement and pictures or release to fight another day. The fish lives to fight another day.

It was caught on a crazy charlie fly (#4) used for bonefish in saltwater. Estimated weight about 3 pounds but will never know for sure. The fish attacked the fly in shallow water (about 2 feet deep) like a shark leaving a wake. I thought it was a nice LMB, but instead it was the BG of a lifetime...but maybe it will grow more and be caught again someday. It haunts my thoughts today.

ML, I would have treasured a photo and documentation of your CNBG of a lifetime.
The Texas state record for BG from private waters is 3.25#’s and you were pushing or exceeding the record.

With the current interest in BG on the forum, I have gotten in the habit of carrying a camera, tape measure and scale - and a bucket of water on my mule utility vehicle.

Also, I am sure you are aware that the cork grip on 5wt fly rod is normally 7 inches to use for measurement in a pinch.

Congratulations....!
Go back and catch him ...

I always have a tape measure and a digital scale in my fishing vest which is always with me at my pond. However, I usually forget to bring the digital camera.

ML, that Coppernose Bluegill is probably not alone. He has friends, I would suppose.

George,

It's a mistake I hope to never, ever repeat! I've regretted the mistake over and over since Saturday evening. It literally haunts me.

I completely forgot about the cork grip thing and should have used that or anything else, e.g. a stick or weed or whatever, to get the length. I guess my brain froze. All I could think about was whether or not to kill the fish by taking it back to the house or release it.

It was the weight of this fish that was so special. Incredible size. No pictures, no proof, however. Just another fish story.

I always go to this pond on the small tractor and carry a bucket, tape measure, scales, and usually the digital camera. This one time, I just grabbed the fly rod, tied on a Charlie, and walked out to the pond to quickly sample the CNBG. I knew it was full moon time and I expected them to be in shallows for spawning. Never expected to see the fish of a lifetime.

Sunil, I hope you are right...and will not stop thinking of this fish until another one hopefully comes along sometime.

ML :

For me you don't need the proof as it is the dreams and stories that count where it matters most. At our ponds the best chance to catch a really big BG is on the bed near the full moon in May. It is the most pronounced BG spawning event. A suggestion for what it is worth (2 cents). Take the fly rod to the same exact place ASAP (or around the June full moon) and try the same fly. If it does not work leave for about an hour and come back and try a sinking fly or a Lady G $-Gill and let it sink then hop it around. Who knows it may work. Think positive as luck favors the prepared mind.

The great thing about a truly awe-inspiring catch is how it causes you to forget simple things like documentation. I keep a 5 gallon bucket on each side of the pond for short-term fish storage; when I caught a really neat BG last month it was all I could do to decide to kill or keep it, and then photo and release it. It never occurred to me to put it in the bucket and take time to think. And the bucket was 2 feet way.

What happens to me a lot is I catch the most awe inspring fish just before dark. Not the best time to take pics.

I learned many years ago that without documentation, a caught and released fish is just another fish story – except for PB forum members of course....

I have used film, poloroid, and now digital camera – for my own records, and to share with fishin’ friends.

Handy for pics of family members on the pond, as well as a memorable sunrise/sunset on the pond.

I was in a similar state of confusion this weekend. Not nearly as large as ML's, but since I dont get to fish my pond much, it was exciting. Just before dark in a boat away from feeder. Fishing in deeper water with a 4 inch GS. I knew this was too large for the BG or newly stocked CC. Thought I would see how the LMB had been growing. Fishing on bottom. It was a very large female BG. Thought it a very fat male, but no coloring, Huge mouth(not a TGG). Turned her over and knew was a female. Cut line, put her in the 5 gal. bucket to revive. Couldn't decide to keep or let go. Dummy decides to let her go and hopefully spawn, but forgets to try and remove hook. Buried deep in roof of mouth, but barb was smashed. Hope she got to deposit her eggs.
ML, you will catch another one. From your story and George's earlier posted pic., it seems that Bruce's Barry Bonds juice has made it into north Texas.

My Dad just caught the first ever legit 10 inch fish that originated from egg in my breeding program. This fish is age-3.

He's got kind of a funny look to him. I can't quite put my finger on it. I think it's the fact that the black spots are so pronounced, but he doesn't have any bright reproductive colors. Hmmmm. I'll try to figure this out later. Maybe we need to catch a couple of more fish.

Bruce, what a beauty. I have caught a couple of fish that looked like that, not as large, and wondered if they were cuckolds.

So much for "never taking the camera along."

How big are the Bull Gills if the lurkers are 10"?

Holy lavender and burgundy a 10 inch immature male? What have Dr.s Bruce and Frankenbruce developed?

Answer : A wonderful strain of BG for all to admire.

Very nice Dr.s and well done. Recall that they change color quickly even from the time hooked until you land them. I would not be concerned about the color if only one or even if most looked that way.

I'm pretty sure this fish is the one Dr. Willis and I held for the Pond Boss article part I. It is one of 33 remaining fish from the first spawn. 30 males and 3 females. The other males are 8.75 inches or greater in size, but this one's the biggest I've seen. He hasn't started to form a hump yet, and I don't know if that's because he's immature or too young.

I thought it was really interesting that in the total absence of most other traits of maturity that the nape spots are so obvious. Perhaps that black spots are purely a trait of male vs. female as opposed to mature vs. immature.

I'd swear he was looking at me as my Dad held him.

Here's my Dad with the same fish.

Nice gill Bruce. What were the measurements?

It looks like we left a bit too early.

You missed him by about twenty minutes. My Dad also caught four more yellow perch from 7.5 to 9.5 inches. The fish was ten inches on the money, but we popped him right back in the water as opposed to weighing. I didn't have my scale with me but I'd bet he was at least one pound.

Originally posted by Bruce Condello:

I thought it was really interesting that in the total absence of most other traits of maturity that the nape spots are so obvious. Perhaps that black spots are purely a trait of male vs. female as opposed to mature vs. immature.

My opinion leans that way.

I'd swear he was looking at me as my Dad held him.

Not in that picture - no pinkeye. But he and you Dad sure are lovingly gazing at each other.

Bruce here is a thought for you. How much do the traits of maturity and or maleness (especially those related to spawning)reduce or become less obvious if there are no females (adult females) present? That is how much and which ones are dependant on courtship and mating dominance triggers ? The concept is greater growth in males as a result of lack of male investment in reproduction and spawning activity (in addition to good food and water). The corollary result may well be reduced color and dominance expression (from that normally associated with breeding males) during the spring/summer. Of the pictures in the PB articles (and in your mind for comparison purposes) how many were from male only ponds. Important to compare apples to apples.

None of the photos in the Pond Boss articles were from male only ponds, however I have noticed what is seemingly less vivid coloration from the ponds without females, including the one above.

It seems plausible that there is a connection between female availability and the bright colors normally associated with male bluegills. Just a hunch, but I think you're right on.

I do know that some trout breeders put their females upstream from their males to get the males conditioned for spawning at spawning time. The females apparently release hormones in the water. So what you are saying is definitely plausible.

My bluegill pond that I just drained had probably 99 percent males. Almost all of the males even though they were 8 to 8 1/2 inches did not show much mature coloring. However in my other pond where there are an even balance of both sexes the coloring difference is striking for the same size fish. Albeit it's not peak spawning time yet.

You know things are pretty cool when we can track individual fish like this!!

Just tossing this picture from Saturday in to compare the color differences with the Bruce's male BG. This one darkened up before I could get the picture taken.

Very healthy one, Shorty! Another Nebraska Cornhusker.

Shorty - That fish is a perfect example of what a male bluegill should look like. Very nice picture and thanks for posting it.