We are in northern wisconsin, waters here in the 60-70 degrees. We have rainbow trout(largest caught last fall 16") and hbg(largest caught last July 8"). These were both stocked 2 yrs ago. We stocked an additional #100 rainbows (3-5" in late May this yr) We had a tremendous tadpole hatch this spring(they are pretty much all gone now) Do not see many small fry in the shallows. The problem -- we haven't caught a thing out of here since last fall. The pond is 14" deep and we have aerated it all winter and spring. We now have turned off the aerator and have not fed the fish since
last year. The water is silty looking as if something is stirring it up. Would the fish be doing this particularly if they are all sitting on the bottom(particularly the trout to stay cool. We have fished w/minnows, lures, worms, spinners, rubber lures, with no results. We even tried ice fishing and used a camera, saw fish but none bit. Rainbows and hbg should be very aggressive feeders and we see nothing. Any suggestions besides seining.

Probably if fish is not willing to eat, you may try any lure you want, it won't work. You have to find out what causes that. Don't you think that water could be too warm? I'd consider 70 degree temperature as not the best one for trout type species (correct me if i'm wrong).

temp will explain the trout not biting, but not the hybrid blue gill,they should like the warm waters.
By the way Hybrid blue gill do spawn and produce. We found several in our overflow this spring. And certainly doesn't explain why nothing bites while ice fishing.

During times of ice fishing the water is very cold and the metabolism in the fish slows way down. I think that may be why they aren't biting. But being from Oklahoma, I have no ice fishing knowledge

what do you have for the trout to eat?? copy that, wait for the grasshoppers to come out.

Try salmon eggs in the spring, but most trout i get on eggs swllow them deep.

Try things small like black jigs, look into flies that may resemble aquatic live they thrive on.

Them not eating but still being present means they are healthy and getting plenty to eat.

It may also mean with a put and take like trout, that you could put more in next time or try adding some.

one other thought, if the trout have gone into the depths and are somewhat inactive(not feeding), the minnows continue to spawn and increase in #, with no predation from the trout. So the food increases in # with no risk from the trout to them. We just have too much food avail and they don't have to bite. We did put #100 5-7" rainbows in the spring and have seen their activity, just not the older,larger trout. Haven't seen the blue gill spawning like previous years in the shallows. Like i mentioned be4 we had a tremendous # of tadpoles this spring and of course that adds to the food chain. Hopefully, we start to see more activity as the water cools in the fall.

I know this past winter was especially nasty. Have you seen the fish after ice-out? (besides the newly stocked trout)

Trout don't like water temps above 70. I'd try a small in-line spinner like a rooster tail or mepps sized 0 or 1 on 4# test line. Toss it out over the deeper water, varying the start of the retrieve in 1 second intervals for each cast to progressively work deeper water until you are counting and the line goes slack (you've hit bottom).

olson,

I have not seen my BG in the shallows spawning either?? Last year I had like 13 beds right near the dock and this year??? Not sure what's up? I am blaming it on the Blue Heron I have!!! He always gets the blame!!! Fricken Heron.........

Mine have spawned 2x so far this year and now I have some RES making beds again.

I have two lures that I usually fall back on for trout and medium to large bluegill.

1) 1/32nd silver / yellow bodied panther martin inline spinner (usually when they are more active)

and

2) Gulp 1 inch (2cm) minnows rigged onto a 1/64th or 1/32nd jig head. I toss them out, allow to sink for about 3 seconds, then slightly twitch the rod up and down and reel in very slowly. This has been very effective for me. More so than any other soft plastic I have ever used in heavily pressured ponds.

I mainly use it for bluegill & trout (mainly rainbows and finicky browns), and every once in awhile will catch a smaller model 1 lb LMB.

just noticed in the last week 2-3" bluegill guarding nests. Its seems a bit late in the season for spawning. Still no action from the trout or larger hybrid bluegill. To keep the herons out we placed a full size heron decoy out on the shore and move it occasionally. This seems to keep the herons away, seems they are quite territorial. However, we do get visits from the osprey and eagles.

Nils,

BG will spawn all summer long that's what is so great about them. They keep feeding your bass for you. As long as it's warm they will spawn 4 to even 5 times a year if the water temps are right.

You said that you saw fish with camera. If it weren't so, I'd think that these predator birds have caught all trouts.

the water is brown stained and i doubt the birds could see them particularly since it seems they have gone deep. the trout we put in this spring are active at the top and of course the small bg.in the shallows. hoping the big ones will appear again when the cooler temps come back.

Just curious with the water temp, what is the surface temp verses the bottom temp or at least 6 ft down??

now that the Hybrid blue gill are spawning and the trout are not feeding we have an over abundance of the blue gill with no predation going on. Soon we will have what we did not want a stunted pond of bluegill. The hybrids have been a real disappointment. considering putting a couple of northern pike in or some other predator fish, but if the waters are too warm for the trout prob. the same situation with any other predator fish. The pond would be difficult to seine, lots of large stones on the bottom. Maybe large mouth bass would help, they like warmer waters.

Don't compare pike with trout because pikes tolerate much warmer water than trouts do.

nils:

the BG are easily caught when on the beds if you're worried about an over population of them. The HBG don't have the high fecundity that regular BG do, so they aren't as likely to over populate the pond. You could shuffle thru the nesting area, disturbing the nests and probably any eggs that have been laid.

What do you have in the pond for predator fish?

I'm curious Nils, were you lead to believe that HBG were sterile, and would not reproduce? They are sometimes touted as such, when in fact they are quite capable of reproducing. The benefit of HBG, as far as I'm concerned, is that most of the first generation, (F1's), are male. Some studies suggest 90-95% male, in fact.

Esshup is right, if you want to lessen the odds of a stunted pond, then I would fish out the HBG, and make sure to keep any underwater vegetation to a minimum. I have found these fish to be quite predatory in nature, and have observed them feeding on yoy many times. However - it has been my experience that they will not succesfully control their own reproduction to the extent that LMB, or another predator species, will. I do not consider them self-limiting.

The fact that you stocked the HBG two years ago, coupled with your northern location, means that any LMB stocked now will probably have their work cut out for them. Your saving grace might be the fact that we're talking HBG, not native BG. I think it might be too late if they were regular BG. I'm no authority on NP, but it seems to me that they would enjoy the fusiform shape of your trout, possibly preferring them over the HBG?

I think if it were me, I would concentrate on fishing the hybrids out, and stock some LMB in the 6-9" range. I would be afraid that any larger Bass might also decimate the rainbows you stocked this year.

Yep! what he said, the small trout will make dinner. But they are a put and take anyways. If you could get all one sex of NP or LMB they could control the yoy HBG. Or a younger Tiger Musky as they would not procreate either. And they will eat trout but only the ones they can get in their mouth, they will consentrate on the most plentiful food sources first. aka YOY Hybrids.

Sounds like messing the nests or catching the broods is the direct fix.

Dont sound so down about it, you dont know if you have a problem yet.
Trout can be picky!!

Have you done the Jar Test??

How deep is the pond?

what is the jar test? The trout are picky we know, but 2 yrs ago we put over 150 (3-5")Hybrid bluegills in the pond and haven't caught more than #10 at best. They aren't spose to be picky. The only bluegills spawning are the 2"ers. The bigger ones (if they even exist anymore) are not in the shallows. we are very perplexed. starting to wonder if someone fished us out. However, doubt this cause the waters are pretty stained and birds i believe would have trouble.

You mentioned that you saw HBG fry in your overflow.... any chance the bigger fish made their escape via that route?

Believe me, they WILL find the way out if one exists.

Something here just doesn't add up for me. You stocked 3-5" fish two years ago, and now you're seeing 2" fish spawning? Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't get the math to work. Granted, BG are extremely prolific, so I'm open to the possibility that the 5 inchers pulled off a spawn late in '09', the year you stocked them, but to have 2" HBG that are sexually mature, and spawning now, hints at trouble in my book.

Typically, the spawning hierarchy is determined by the largest males. If you have 2" HBG spawning now, then I would think that the larger HBG are non-existent, or at least their numbers are few and far between.

By any chance, were there fish already in this pond when you stocked your HBG and RT?

As far as being picky, I have heard it said many times that HBG are great for a "pay lake", or kids pond, because they're easy to catch, or always willing to bite. In my experience, this simply isn't true. Sure, WHEN they're in a feeding mode, they can be easy to catch. But, contrary to what you may read elsewhere, they are NOT always in the mood to eat.

The aggressive behaviour so often spoke of, to me at least, refers to their ability to absolutely smash a bait, and put up a fight that would put my native BG to shame. I haven't found them always willing to bite - not by a long shot.

Try fishing deeper with some micro crankbaits, or small spoons.

there's no way the 2 yr old hbg could have escaped thru the overflow. Last year we caught on worms #10 of these hbg and the largest was 9". So they had gone from average 4" to 9" in two seasons. but not one has bitten since last summer. How do u lose almost 130 fish and no see sign of what happened? perplexed

Morts don't always float. You have probably lost some that you never saw. Is there water coming into this pond from another BOW? What if the majority of the HBG escaped when they were stocked at 3-5"? Leaving just a few in the pond to turn into the 9 inchers that you caught last year?

Do you, or someone else, live at the pond full time? Any chance of two-legged interlopers helping themselves?

What does the pond drain into? Another BOW?

What other species, if any, are present besides the Rainbows?

You stated that you saw fish on your camera, during the winter. This PAST winter, or the previous one? Did you see HBG, RT, or both?

The jar test is to fill a glass jar with stained water, and let it set for a week. If the muck settles to the bottom, things generally are not very bad, if it is still murky, there is some sort of chemical in balance or floating clay. These other guys know a lot more about it, but it is an easy test and gives these proffessionals a lot of info.

Where in Wisconsin are you? Depending on the location, wildlife could be partly responsible.

We took out the fish locator this past wknd, and could not locate any large fish of any kind. So now looks like all we have are the 2" offspring of the original hybrids we put in and the 3-5" trout(approx.#100) we put in this spring. We have noticed an osprey hang ing around alot lately. Have not caught him w/any fish. The water temp at 2" is 73-77 degrees. Have not checked the various depths yet. so looks like we start over but with what? We are going to attempt to seine some of the little bluegills out. But don't believe we will restock until next spring.

I think trying the seine is a good idea, at least you'll have an idea of what's really down there, or not.

As far as restocking goes, if it were me, I would find out where the original fish went before I put in any more.

Try the seine, or a trap, or fyke net.(or all three).

I have to agree, find out where the others are.

Are you interested in staying int he trout species or brodening horizons.

I like some all trout dams.

We had rainbows, now thinking maybe browns. But we need to figure out where they all went, whether it be 2 or 4 legged predators. Also the water temps concern me at 2 ft it was 73 to 77. The trouts prolly won't like that. We will try to check the deeper areas. Need a species that won't overpopulate a .6 acre pond. We thot we had that with the rainbows and the hybrid blue gill. Back to the drawing board.

nils, are HSB allowed in Wi?

Will you be fishing the pond in the colder months? (even through the ice?)

I still think HBG would be a good panfish for your pond. I don't know of any other that has a lower fecundity. Trout will definately do better in the colder water, providing there is enough O2 during the winter. Whether or not they will survive the summer heat is questionable. If you get a inexpensive indoor/outdoor thermometer that should allow you to get temp readings down to about 10'.

See if a thermocline sets up in your pond. If the temps stay below 70°F above it, then I think the trout would make it thru the summer.

The trouble Ive seen trout have is when the water hits 80 and dont drop below 70 at night, but that is in river water too.

I'll bet they can find some cool pockets of water to seek relief in, plus my gut feeling is that flowing river water would have a bit higher levels of O2 than pond water.

Checked the water temp in the deepest hole(14 ft) and it was 64 degrees, at the surface it is 70. So the water temp should not be causing the trout or hbg any trouble. However, we started the aerator up which sits in the deepest hole and we noticed a very smelly odor. We had it turned off during the hottest part of the summer(June, july and part of August) we are seining this wknd.

Did you stop running the aerator with the bad smell or leave it running?

Smelly odor indicates no dissolved oxygen in water around the area where the aerator sits.

we decided it is better to leave it run at this point, since the water temp doesn't appear to be an issue. the trout or larger hbg aren't anywhere to be found in the pond So we are starting over depending on what we find when we seine.

Nils, good thing that you are possibly starting over. Starting up a bottom diffuser aeration system that quickly could create a fishkill.

I have been told that running the bottom diffuser in the summer months also creates issues with the warming of water and trout. so consequently we turned it off, but i spose we should have run it occasionally at nite. Seems like a balancing act that goes on between water temp and oxygen levels constantly all summer. damned if u do and damned if u don't. Maybe lmb won't be so particular w/temps. Not sure if hlmb are available in this area. So disheartening when u go from 14" trout to nothing.

Nils, I think you should move your diffuser out of the deepest hole and run it in a little shallower water at night only. You nailed it when you said it's a balancing act with trout! Moving the diffuser to shallower water will leave the deeper cooler water undisturbed, but should bring up DO levels ~ running at night will prevent over-heating of the water column.

In addition to moving your aeration to shallow water you could add a thermostat to your air pump and set it to operate at air temps. below the pond temp.

I ran my bottom diffuser just at night when temps were below 70 deg, but that mixed the water column too much with the upper, warmer water. The trout died.

If I get a spare 2 days I'll build the aeration system that I think will solve that problem.

we do have two separate diffusers and the larger diffuser we could easily move to a shallower area. We will try this for the future. Even in the winter time it would prolly be better if one were in a shallower area so as not to cool the deepest part so much. Thanks for the thot.