Don't recall seeing any discussion on freshwater shrimp on this board. Has anyone used them for forage? Are they available commercially? When we duck hunt in North Dakota some of the potholes are literally full of shrimp. They coat the bottoms of our decoys. I would think that they would be tremendous forage for bluegill perch and other small fish. Is there a reason they don't work?
I have had grass shrimp in my ponds for many years. They are great for all fish including fingerling bass. They are my #1 bait for all panfish. The only problem I have had is it is hard to get them established in smaller ponds. They get eaten so fast it is unreal. If your going to stock them in a pond i recommend you stock ahead of the bluegill by 2 months. This gives them some time to spawn and get established. Then proubly every year 2 to 3 times a year go dip net some from these holes you say and put them in. Once you get them going in larger lakes its hard to get rid of them. Make sure that your pond has brush and water plants for spawning and protection.
I would be very intrested! Maybe Shawn, Greg, Bill, Jb, Dave, know of a source? Anyone?
Ric
Here is a link with some good information. I'll continue looking for a source.
Scuds
I've got a friend that know a ton about growing shrimp in fresh water. contact Steven Patrick at stevep@uga.edu
he is the aquaculture specialist for the extension service here in Georgia. real smart guy, knows his stuff
SHan is right. Here is his link to tons of info on freshwater shrimp.
http://county.ces.uga.edu/habersham/aqua/prawn.html
Shan & Greg, thanks for the information on the shrimp, my original post was asking a question regarding scuds (less than one inch) for fish forage. Most of the information I've found relates to prawns for human consumption, which would probably not be viable in Michigan. I believe that hyella and gammarus are different species. I'm curious if the reason we find the high populations in North Dakota potholes is due to a lack of fish in these waters. Has anyone successfully introduced them to a pond as a forage source? Thanks again, I'll review the above information thoroughly.
Steve,
Not sure the reason they are so common in potholes is the lack of fish. I icefished Devil's Lake North Dakota and it was full of them too. But then again the large water may allow many to survive predation. It seems Dave Willis should know something about them as he is from South Dakota. Dave?
I have some very small freshwater shrimp that are not hyella shrimp or gammarus shrimp. They only grow to about 1 inch and look exactly like the saltwater shrimp you eat.
Anyone know the exact Scientific name for these shrimp? I would like to look them up and find some more info on the web.
I have seen this kind of shrimp mostly in East Texas lakes. I have caught them in my minnow nets at Caddo Lake and Lake Fork.
GHi Cecil. I'm not an expert on the Gammarus, but I'll pass on a few comments.
We do find a lot of the Gammarus in the wetlands up here (SD, ND, and MN). The more fish in a wetland, the fewer the Gammarus.
In our fishing lakes, they do persist with sport fish populations, but not nearly in the same numbers as in the smaller wetlands. However, our food habits studies with yellow perch certainly showed that the perch will find and eat the scuds!!
In sport fishing lakes, I'd say the most scuds (Gammarus) that I see are in the lakes with some submergent (rooted) aquatic plants. I suspect the plants provide some refuge from predation, and that keeps the scuds at a more moderate level. Lakes with a 15 or 20% vegetation band have more scuds than the lakes with 0% vegetation (lakes that tend to be more shallow, windswept, and/or have lots of common carp).
I'd say that in a pond with submergent vegetation, scuds would be a good supplemental food source, although they wouldn't support panfish by themselves. I'm sure that small bass, bluegills, and yellow perch would love them (hopefully not so much that they disappear from the pond).
I have never specifically stocked them into a pond without them, and then tracked it to see what happens. Which, of course, makes me wonder right now why I didn't do so!! :-)
Dave
I have the same shrimp as Al Kohutek. I guess they are just in in texas because that is the only place i've heard of them at.
For Lk Vilbig; Al K.: There are two freshwater glass or grass shrimp and two marine/brackish water small 1"-1.5" shrimp that could be in your area. Most likely you have the fw Palaemonetes kadiakensis. Other possibility is P.paludosus both the fw forms. P.paludosus is common in FL.
The scuds Hyalella and Gammarus are not only different species but they are different genera. The two most common species are Gammarus fasciatus and Hyalella azetca. There are nearly 100 species in this group of amphipods. Hyalella is about three times smaller than G. fasciatus. I typically see Hyalella in nonchemicalized ponds but rarely see G.fasciatus in ponds with high fish numbers. I think that G.fasciatus is easier prey than Hyalella due to size. I've tried to introduce G.fasciatus into a weeded pond twice and so far no noticable survival. Whereas Palaemonetes have survived well in the pond.
ARE THERE ANY READERS OF THIS THAT HAVE ENOUGH NUMBERS OF GRASS SHRIMP TO SELL A FEW? Please provide a name and contact information for those that would be interested. Thanks a lot.
Thanks Bill. I looked these up and the Palaemonetes kadiakensis looks like what I have caught in my minnow nets.
Thanks again,
Al
Anyone have an idea where to obtain some for stocking a new pond in Illinois?
Back to the top... My 10-12 acre pond will likely be completed within a couple weeks. I'd like to stock it with shrimp, crayfish and fathead minnows. I can get the fathead minnows lots of places. Anyone know of anyplace that sells the shrimp and crayfish?
Rangersedge,
Don't know about the shrimp .. I would love to have some too. Hope you'll post any leads here!
Cecil Baird had a post Jan 2nd 2003 under [Questions and Answers] Topic [Crayfish dealer in Ga.] he lists several dealers.
Ric
I think that Ken's fish farm sells them.
www.kens-fishfarm.com Dont see them on the website, but I still think they were in his book.
I went to that website and called Ken's, but the person answering the phone indicated they got out of the shrimp business a couple years ago...
Still very interested and looking if anyone knows of a source...
Well... I may have discovered a source. Are "Ghost Shrimp" the same thing? If they are, my local WalMart supercenter has them in the aquariums / fish department for 28 cents each. The label said 74-78 degrees. If they are the same, is it safe to assume that they would survive the winters in South Central Illinois and in the slightly muddy water of a new pond? Also, how quickly do those rascals reproduce? I'm thinking they'd better put rabbits to shame if I hope to have an adequate supply for forage in my pond without going broke.
Here is the guy who put Ken out of the shrimp business.
www.gafreshwatershrimp.com
Bill: Thanks, but from the pictures and weights, I think he is talking about prawns that get fairly large and are sold for human consumption vs. the 1" to 1.5" grass shrimp I was wanting for fish forage. Of course, I may be and often am wrong...
Jeff
I am pretty sure that ghost shrimp are the adult stage of brine shrimp. Brine shrimp are not the same as grass or glass shrimp. I will try and check this out on Google and return later.
WOW! Be careful what you get from the Wal-Mart pet shop. On Googgle I found at least five different genera (scientific names) of shrimp that had common names of Ghost Shrimp. The small fish food shrimp you want for pond stocking have the genus name Palaeomonetes as noted in the above posts.
Also, I found that adult brine shrimp do not appear to be called ghost shrimp.
I found this posting for "glass shrimp" on e-bay. Bill Cody is this the type folks are looking for?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2344367378&category=20759 kevin b
The eBay glass shrimp was Palaemonetes pugio. P.pugio and P. intermedius are marine and brackish water glass shrimp. I "assume" these are also native to the deep south.
The glass shrimp most common in waters from southern Ontario to northeast mexico is: Palaemonetes kadiakensis. I have these growing in one of my ponds in NW Ohio but I don't have enough of them to sell. The fish population keeps them thinned out too much.
Macrobrachium ohione - River shrimp:
This is also another freshwater shrimp which would live year-round in ponds from Eastern Texas north to southern Michigan. They occur mostly in shallow wetland & backwater areas around the Mississippi drainage system. This shrimp is bigger (3"-4"long) than than glass shrimp (1"-1.5"). At 3"-4" long these would get big enough to clean them and have "popcorn" shrimp. These larger shrimp are called Macrobrachium ohione or "river shrimp". Since they are larger they may not do well in ponds with a large fish population; fish would probably prey hard on them.
No action on this topic for four months.
Someone has surely came across a hoard of grass shrimp that they want to get rid of by now?
Does anyone have a good source for crayfish in fairly large quantities and how does one assure they aren't the rusty version that causes problems?
Rosey Reds are just fathead minnows bred to emphasis that certain coloration aren't they?
Jeff
Ranger,
I can't answer either of your questions but would like to use this thread to ask Bill Cody if he has a source for papershell crawfish he has mentioned. Does anyone know where to purchase papershell crawdads?
My potential crayfish connection did not pan out this year. I spoke to Scott Trava, and he seems very confident that he can supply crayfish in April or May of '04. I'm giving that a shot for sure. Scott recommended a water hardness test to make sure the new crayfish would molt.
These are not the "rusticus" strain of crayfish.
I finally found a source for freshwater shrimp (scuds). "Gammarus Lacustris" happens to be a common pond shrimp and accounts for a large portion of trout forage. This won't help me up here but this guy sounds interesting. Contact: Barry Thoele at Live Aqua. Home 218-894-3638, work 888-660-3436, e-mail liveaqua@brainerd.net. He is in Staples, MN.
Wood
There is a supplier of papershell crayfish (Orconectes immunis) in NW Ohio. I am not sure of the restrictions for shipping them out of state. I will contact this person and check on the shipping status. Papershell crayfish does not occur naturally in NC nor is it reported to occur there in my (1985) records. Papershell does occur in IL. I do not condone importing species into an area where it does not already exist. There are no doubt other crayfish species that could do the same job in NC ponds.
Wood: I emailed him earlier this week and haven't heard back so I tried to call. I probably messed up but it asked for my 4 digit PIN each time I dialed that 888 number for the scuds. Any advice? Thanks! Jeff
Jeff, sorry for the dead end. I originally found his name listed as a supplier of Gammarus for seahorse culture. His name also came up in a discussion regarding wetlands rehabilitation and also as the owner of Lincoln baits in Staples. I will dig a little deeper and post results, regards, John.
Thanks Bill
I'll check and see if I can legally bring them into NC.
Ric
FYI: Gammarus fasciatus is available from Wildlife Nurseries,Inc, POB 2724, Oshkosh WI 54903-272. 920-231-3780. They do not ship until around May when their ponds open up. Price is $75.00 for 200; including shipping. I have bought Gammarus from them, product is good.
G.fasciatus gets up to 14mm long whereas G.lacustris gets up to 22mm long. Other than that they are quite similar in overall appearence.
The place in Ohio said will ship papershell crayfish but they said overnight shipping gets expensive. So far they have only shipped them within Ohio. Regardless of how bad one wants them as fish food, I would not import them into states where they do not already exist. There are other crayfish species that will serve your purpose. Even collecting local crayfish from your local streams or marshlands would be a much better alternative.
A source of freshwater shrimp/scuds is M&W Bait Shop at Sioux Falls, SD 605-338-6515. They will ship. These shrimp come from shallow lakes in NE South Dakota. Dave Willis could probably tell what species these are.
I don't know about other states but my state requires a permit to import crustaceans although if you do it you would probably get a way with it. Just something to keep in mind.
Norm sort of put me "on the spot," as I really don't know much about invertebrates. However, I have a book, so I can find enough info to be dangerous.
I'd guess that the scuds that Norm mentioned as being available are probably Gammarus lacustris. The invert book I am reading says that they reach a maximum of 22 mm (nearly an inch), and they are "found in a wide variety of habitats over the northern half of the United States."
Earlier, Bill mentioned Gammarus fasciatus. My book says they reach a maximum of 14 mm, and are "common in the upper Mississippi drainage, the Great Lakes drainages, and the Atlantic coastal plain down to NC."
These appear to be the two mostly widely distributed scuds in the Gammarus genus. However, there also is a widely distributed scud known as Hyalella azteca. They only reach 8 mm, but are "widely distributed and common." So, I doubt that I could tell these from a small (young) Gammarus without a microscope and a book.
One of our local baitfish dealers, Mark Froning at Dakota Wholesale Bait (605-693-4422), said he gets quite a few of the scuds in his nets, but only in the spring. He said he could collect and sell them most easily at that time.
The problems with transporting fish and invertebrates outside their native range is probably an issue that should be considered, as indicated by Cecil. There are no easy answers to this dilemma, and sport fisheries biologists really struggle with the issue right now. Guess I'll let it go at that!!
Dave
Sorry to put you on the spot, Dave. I sure don't know what species they are. I think that Mark Froning gets most of his minnows and scuds from M & W Bait. I certainly agree that moving inverts around posses tremendous threats to environment and maybe should not be considered.
Thanks for the scud and crawfish sources.
I've read that Illinois has both the scuds and papershell crawfish. I was thinking I'd postpone getting any until next year; but remembered a shallow, fishless pond at the edge of one of our cattle pastures that might be a good site for them.
Is there a website where one could confirm the indigenous species to an area and the type of habitat they prefer?
I'm currently attempting exactly what you (Rangersedge) describe in a shallow fishless 0.7 acre pond. Would also like to find information on scud reproduction, pH, DO, T preferences, etc. Have not been able to find this information.
Not real heavy reading but covers the basics.
scuds more scuds This book looks helpful
Not sure if this helps but these sites claim to sell freshwater shrimp.
www.fattigfish.com (glass shrimp) and
www.coloradofisheries.com (scuds)
Everyone: Thanks for the sources and info!
Wood: You didn't give me a bum lead after all. I heard from Barry at Live Aqua via email just a few minutes ago. He indicated in his email (received from liveaqua@brainerd.net) that they handle several thousand pounds of gammarus lacustris each year; but they are currently looking for additional sources. He indicated he would put me on a list after I receive DNR clearance to bring them to Illinois.
Jeff
I know this is an old thread but I thought I would share this. I read on a local fishing forum that some people were collecting shrimp for bait at a lake near my house. I checked with the fish and game regarding re-locating some to my pond and they said take all you want. I went there last weekend and drilled a hole in the ice in a shallow weed bed and when I brought the auger back up, it flooded the ice surface with thousands of them. Gammarus lacustris almost an inch long. I scooped them up and put them in a bucket and put the auger back down the same hole and hoisted up another load. I came home with a 5 gallon bucket, 6" thick on the bottom. I have kept a bunch in a trough that are breeding. I want to see if I can raise some for re-planting in my pond later. I'll post results for anyone interested. Wood
Just a reminder, this is a perfect time of year to get fresh water shrimp (scuds). Page 3 has the names of various sources. In general, all that you have to do is call any state fisheries biologist and they can tell you where to get them easily.
Ric, I have had them five weeks now, they are in a cooler, probably two hundred or so. Most of the females have moulted and are paired up again for breeding. Still no babies to be seen. I feed them trout pellets, and have been putting pond weeds in as well. Apparently they like very hard water and require calcium to re-grow their shells. Any ideas on a source for calcium to add? They also need to cling and do not like smooth surfaces, it seems they get stressed out and will not breed, go figure. I did put a few hundred coupled pairs in the pond to see if they will take. I have read a lot about trout diet and didn't realize how important scuds were. They are responsible for the red pigment in the skin, and the pink color of the meat. Trout pellets contain an artificial additive to replecate this color. If I had the chance again, I would stock scuds first and allow time for them to properly establish.
I'm looking at purchasing some scuds and glass shrimp. I'm planning to put them in a couple fishless ponds with hopes that they will multiply and I can relocate them to my forage ponds when completed and perfected. Can anyone tell me if they will likely do well in small, fairly shallow pond in southern Illinois? Thanks in advance!
http://www.fattigfish.com/glshr.htm
I haven't gotten any yet. How is it working out for those of you who did?