Hello PB forum! I am a long time reader, first time poster.

Brief history.......I am blessed to be part owner and manager of a 12 acre pond in central AL. We dammed it up in Dec. 2002, added bream and fatheads in 2/03, LMB fingerlings in 6/03 and began serious fishing in 6/04. Stocked 1/3 Florida LMB , 2/3 F-1 tiger LMB. Only one goal for this pond, Trophy LMB!

We have fertilized every year and added lime twice since the initial liming. We basically remove all bass under 15 inches. I add 15-25 x-mas trees a year for structure. I fish at least once weekly and pull out about 20-25 lbs per acre per year. In 4/08, added threadfin shad. The pond is about 20 feet deep and the shad thrived, surviving a couple of very cold winters.

Caught my first 5 pounder in 8/05. Since then I have caught 48 LMB between 5 and 8 pounds. Caught the last 8 two weeks ago. My sons and other friends have caught numerous 5+ during past five years.

So, here is where I am today. I want to take it up a notch or two. I have been thinking for the last couple of years of adding larger forage to beef up the bigger bass. I have been advised that golden shiners would not do well in my pond (no grass or much cover in the shallows).

I've avoided gizzard shad after much reading ( the majority of which is on these boards). But, I am having second thoughts. I revisited the possibility of stocking gizzard this year, and now, I think I'm going to do it!

I would appreciate any comments, advice, wisdom or experience any of you might have about the stocking of GS.

Thanks.

Do you have a feeder?

Nope, never had a feeder.

With those advanced sizes in bass, you might be ok. How's the bluegill population? How cold do your winters get? There was a Pond Boss article, I think a couple years ago, about seasonally stocking rainbow trout to feed largemouth. Not sure if that's an option that far south though.

I think the BG population is ok. Last shocked a year ago, no bream over 9", most were 5-6". Sepond did it, and mentioned a lack of 2-4 incher's. Last two winter's were mild. The one before that had a week below freezing. Three quarters of the pond iced over, lost some shad, but have never had to restock.

Have you thought about adding a couple of feeders to feed the BG? I may be wrong (don't have any experience with Southern Ponds) but personally I'd rather try that first before adding Gizzards. You'd be feeding the LMB indirectly by feeding the BG.

Have you done any WR studies on the LMB of the different age classes?

The pond property is secluded and no one monitors it during the week. I live 30 minutes away and usually only get out on weekends. I've had concerns that feeders might get stolen. The Wr of my bass are good I think. I weigh and measure all 2lbs and up. Most run between .9 and 1.10 in Wr.

How many small bass do you catch? We own a pond that is similar to yours but after a while the large bass tend to eat nearly all the size you are taking out. I usually catch 45-50 bass over 5 lbs. per year but only got 18 last year. Last year we croppie fished mostly but want to get back to bass this year. Do you have catfish in your pond? They are a problem in mine but are easy to catch.

If you have any docks or platforms near shore, they can be bolted down to the platform. But, if somebody wants to steal something there's almost no way to stop them. They could also be put out on floating platforms so you need a boat to reach them.

Esshup, does the fat cat feeder(one that has pontoons on it) work O.K. That would be a good one to use at a unguarded location.

What about a slot size for culling vs sub 15" You might have more small lmb for the big girls to eat and less pressure on the forage already present.

Kenc:

I've never seen one work. Bob and Nate have tho.

Some professionals at growing trophy bass like Lusk, Grimes, Shawn Banks, or Jeff Slipke should have input on this before you add gshad. IMO you should focus on maintaining your current fishery that has the large bass that it already has and not try to take it up a notch. You could be getting spoiled with the quality of your current quality fishery.

The number of larger bass could increase slightly if the forage level that achieved the currrent fishery is maintained. The pond could be at near mature capacity of large bass and on the verge of decline that the 12 acres can support. From your description the fishery of large bass is on the fence and in danger of declining since the bluegills in the 2"-4" range are scarce. Before adding gizzards I would 1. maintain or enhance the threadfins with good fertility to maintain or improve zooplankton, 2. focus on enhancing the bluegill population to increase numbers as Sepond suggested of the 2"-4" bluegills. A few platform feeders would improve the bluegills. G.shad in the improper conditions can create sediment turbidity, negatively impact plankton, hinder the threadfins and have major impacts the overall ecosystem. Once you have out of control g.shad you have a real headache that is complicated and expensive to fix. IMO, I repeat, you need a professional opinion with good experience with waters similar to yours.

Kenc, I pull 250-350 out per year personally. The professionals I talked with early on told me my problem would be harvesting. Said I really could'nt harvest enough. I don't have a lot of fishing pressure, so I pull as many out as I can. No catfish or crappie in the pond. Where are your ponds located?

Robert, I've often wondered if by harvesting 12" and under, I was depleting my large bass forage.

As long as you are open and willing to deal with 'potential' problems down the road with gizzards and majority of your bass are over 16", go for it. Your original stock is already 9 years old so you're banking that subsequent cohorts will take the ball and run. If you have a shortage of bluegill recruitment as SE found, then you probably aren't taking enough bass annually (do you weigh everything?) and feeding as suggested will help your bluegill. If you're consistently pulling 25lbs/ac/year via hook and line, that's phenomenal! Bump your harvest up to 40lbs/ac/year. Look closely too at your habitat layout- create many ambush sites in varying depths. Make it easy to eat.

The combination of habitat (efficient feeding), ample prey of the right size, and genetics are your players. Will they respond? Maybe. No one can predict how your bass will respond. If they don't respond your options are to start over or try to influence the genetic variable by marking and stocking new bass at low rates after further harvesting your bass population as low as you can stand to.

Just my thoughts based on what we are experiencing.

Bill, I do wonder if I am too spoiled. I love knowing every time I fish I have a chance of catching a big bass. I would love to get the pond producing consistently double digit LMB. Don't know if that's possible with a 12 acre pond. I certainly don't want to screw things up. The guy I talked with at sepond seemed to agree that GSD were my best option for adding larger forage. We also talked about GSH and seasonal trout.

My ponds are at Aylett,Va. They are gravel pits that are fed only by rainwater and underground streams. We catch very few smaller bass now and it has been that way for three years. When we bought the back pond in 2003 we would catch over a hundred sometimes. It was all take before then but as we started putting the big ones back they worked on the smaller bass. This might work for you. We take out a lot of fish but no bass except one 23 in. that weighted 9 lb.7 oz. that my great-nephew caught this year. The back pond floods and has at least 20 different species so it may not be comparable to your pond. If you will go back a few days to an aeration thread there are pictures of my ponds. Bill Cody knows his stuff and you may have hit the ceiling as we have too.

I agree with Bill. Get another prof opinion from someone that has success growing double digit LMB before adding GS. I suggest buying the "Raising Trophy Bass" book from the Pond Boss store. If the GS get out of hand, it'd be impossible to remove them.

When the pond was shocked, how many BG/ac did they say you had, and what was the population size range like?

From ewest:
(my coloring of text)

"You have to have large predators to eat big GShad. IMO at least 25 % of the LMB over 20 inches. Here is a pic of a GShad




At the 20 inch range for these GShad I am not sure any LMB can eat them. Plus they suppress reproduction of other more desirable pond species."

Here's another thread that you should read:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=11350&fpart=1

Thanks to everyone for the comments so far. Bill and esshup, the negatives seem pretty frightening. My thoughts were that in a mature pond, with other forage (BG, RES, TFS), competition and big predators would help prevent GSD from reaching mammoth proportions. Has anyone on the forum actually had GSD, and experienced the negative consequences? What about the opposite. Are there any pond owners who have stocked GSD in a 10+ acre pond that can claim success?

Wade B, I noticed the website in your sig. Are you in the business? Have you had customers that have successfully added GSD?

Bill Cody, I have another question based on your comment above. If indeed I am lacking in 2-4" BG, would not the TFS shad fill that gap?

I agree with Bill and esshup. Plus adding G Shad into a pond with TFS does not always result in a viable population of GShad establishing. Many times it fails due to competition. What about tilapia ? Also if you are short on 3-4 inch BG then you have to many LMB in the 10 - 13 inch size not to many 16 + LMB. Adding 5 inch BG would also help plus feeding them if possible. GShad are my last option because of the risk of and cost to start over.

The only experience with GShad is up here in a local public lake. I know that there weren't enough large LMB in the lake, and someone bucket stocked them (I assume) thinking that they were TShad. IIRC, the last DNR gill net survey said 60% of the biomass in the lake was GShad. LMB fishing isn't near as good as it was 20+ years ago. Don't know if they have anything to do with that, or it's was the once a week tournaments from April thru September that the lake saw for 5-6 years in a row. It's a 365 acre lake.

Esshup,isn't it true that most lakes decline after ten or so years but rivers,tidal and freshwater stay the same.Any thoughts why?

I have gizzard shad in my pond and as of yet have not seen any fish as large as the ones being held up in the pictures. The bass really feed heavily on them around the aerators where the shad congregate. Im not sure why they haven't overpopulated or grown to giant size. If I started over the only fish i would not stock for sure would be catfish. p.s. I did not stock the gizzard shad

James, how large is your pond and how long have you had it. Just wondering how long the GSD might have been in there.

Ewest, I've thought about tilapia, but I don't really want to have to restock annually. I'm looking for someone who has a similar size pond that has managed it responsibly and stocked GSH (from what I'm reading, many seem to think its irresponsible to stock GSD). That being the case have you had disastrous results (anyone with a personal story).

Have seen bad results. We don't use them - to much risk. The cost to rehab a bigger pond is too high and you lose severl years.

They came in our back pond in 2011 via a flood.There are a several lakes in the river shed but I don't know anyone with the gizzards. They got to be 10 in. this year. I may be able to tell you something about them in a couple of years. If I were you I would follow the experts' advice.

I've never heard that. Maybe because the fish have a larger area that they can travel to?

That lake that I mentioned was killed (rotenoned) in '67 and it stayed a great fishery for longer than 10 years, closer to 20.

I respect everyone's comments concerning gizzard shad; many years of experience here which is why I love the forum. Frankly we've had a tough time getting them established where we wanted them. In other systems they've entered through the watershed. The difference between lakes with gizzards and those without is significant when looking at abundance of bass over 8 lbs. Like Bob says in his book (its been a while since I read it so cut me some slack, I'm old) gizzards are present in most lakes he sees or manages for trophy bass. Correct me Bob if I'm wrong on that.

Trader, get back with SE and look closely at your data, both bluegill and bass size frequencies, your annual harvest, and seriously pinpoint your goals. They have experience with this situation. Unless you can manage for an extremely low standing stock of bass, or low total pounds of bass per acre (much lower than you have now), you will need an additional prey item that grows large. You may have to partial poison down the road to remove a segment of large adult gizzards. Or you may have to start over. Drop a gill net in there in the winter to see what your shad population looks like after two years. There are tools to monitor and correct. Yes they cost. Only you can decide if its worth it. Our clients that use gizzards grow big, honkin bass. To date we have not seen an issue them growing beyond the bass and taking up space. I have seen it in larger public reservoirs and it certainly can happen.

Its really no different than any other risk we weigh-is it worth the reward. This forum is evidence that no two ponds act the same...all the time...so results may vary. My original comment about the age of your bass population still should be considered and discussed with SE. One of your biggest variables is whether you have the horsepower in your bass to grow to the next level, regardless of what they eat.

Thanks for the comments Wade. I was'nt sure what you meant by this though:

"Unless you can manage for an extremely low standing stock of bass, or low total pounds of bass per acre (much lower than you have now), you will need an additional prey item that grows large"

Fewer LMB (weight & numbers) per acre or you need more forage of the right size.

Bill alerted me to this thread. After wades post not much more to add other than I agree with his statements. Trader if you would like a second opinion lets us know however based on what SEPM has told you seems like your ready for GZ shad. Everything you read about the potential issues is true. However we do not see as many issues as much as touted.

It all goes back to goals. I tell clients when u get tired of catching 6 lb bass time to step it up with GZ. We just got back from Nashville meeting at the southern division AFS and there was a poster presentation on selective rotenone for Removal of GZ and the toxicity gap is big for most other sportfish species. I'm all for it if you have a well established big bass population. We shock lots lakes and there is not doubt much higher percentage of large bass where GZ reside.

We lease over 50 lakes, many with Gizzard shad. The lakes that consistently, produce the largest bass have gizzard shad in them. I have not seen a lake that has been ruined by them, although I believe the horror stories. The key is to make sure that your bass population has a stable population of large bass. A lake with lots of 1 to 2 lb bass and the rare 8 lb is not a good candidate.

Steve,how do you know if you have a stable pop. of large bass? We have a big bass pond that seems to have very few 8 in.-15in. bass. Where does the next generation come from? The big ones are getting more hook-shy each year and we find a few big dead ones with big stomachs that did not starve.

Thanks for the post Greg. I started this post wanting solid opinions, experience and feedback about GSD. I think I'm certainly getting that. Based on my goals, I've wanted to add larger forage for a couple of years. SE pond discouraged me from adding GSH last year. I brought up GSD early this year and they thought it would work. They of course brought up the negatives but did not try to talk me out of it. Noticed you are located in Ga. Do you have any clients in Alabama?

This is a great selling line:

"I tell clients when u get tired of catching 6 lb bass time to step it up with GZ."

Got to fish today with a buddy (off for President's day). Tough conditions, 15-20 mph winds all day. Four hours of fishing, caught only three....a 2.8, 5.5 and a 6. Fortunately my friend caught them all. I would be an easy sell with the above quote!

Steve, appreciate your comments. I've been wanting to hear from pond owners with GSD. Looks like you are in touch with a lot of pond owners. Spent some time on your web site. Looks like some great fishing ponds!

Thanks we cover the entire SE worked in 12 states last year. We have maybe 6 clients in AL we do fish surveys for. If interested in bid just email us an address. I think you are making an informed decision with your goals and the risk versus reward factor is leaning in your favor.

Ken best way to determine population size structure is electrofishing. If. You are indeed low in bass recuirment then you may need selective removal of GZ or reduction in crappie. The info u learn from a proper survey and well written report is hard to beat.

Greg, I have been told my pond won't electshock well because of it being a gravel pit. When you come off the bank 3 ft. it goes srraight down to about 11-13 ft. We take out a hundred pounds of fish an acre each year, all croppie(1359) or cc(245) last year.

Trader - If you decide to use g.shad, please return periodically (maybe each year) and advise us about how your 12 ac AL pond is progressing. We are interested in what you learn about using gizzard shad for increasing the size and numbers of your larger bass. Thanks and good luck on this project.

Ok Bill, thanks for all of your comments. I will certainly do my best to report back periodically over the next few years with feedback amd results.

I have Gizzards in my pond for several years now, it's a 1 acre pond. Yes, the Bass get big, but very difficult to catch. They just eat a shad every several days and they're all set. I can't say I would do it again (stocking Shad) but it's not been a huge problem either.

There are a couple of ways to determine if you have a stable population of large bass. 1) electroshock survey. 2) catch reports.

My guess is that your larger bass are canabilizing your younger bass. Having larger forage, like tilapia or gizzard shad might be ideal for your lake.

If your fish are hook shy it could be too much fishing pressure or you may have removed most of the more vunerable (easier to catch) fish over the years. Since vunerability is a genetic trait being passed down; adding new genetics may be of benefit. Not sure if your fish are primarily F cross's, Florida's, or native bass, but adding more native genetics will help with your catch rates, but you are giving up size potential. Don't you hate tradeoffs?

Thanks for the info,Steve. We have been told that it will not shock good as it is a bowl dug pit. If you go 3 ft. off the bank it drops to 11-13 ft. Gizzards came with the last flood and are growing fast. Tilapia are banned in Va. The pond was never stocked as it floods from the Mattaponi River. It has no watershed and is fed by underground springs. We never take out any bass but we don't go up but on the weekend so other people do poach both ponds. Ther are at least 20 diff. spieces of fish in the back pond. we had a bad drought last year and the big bass got sores early so I quit fishing for them in May and worked on the croppie and catfish. Do you think it would be a good idea to stock 15 in. bass this fall?

I think managing a pond that floods from a nearby river is futile. When you have little to no control of what enters the lake and all kinds of rough fish can enter you are probably wasting your time. We lease a 250 acre private lake that floods once or twice a year and it is full of rough fish. We accept the lake for what it is; as we have a handfull of members who enjoy catching buffalo, carp, and catfish. But managing a lake like this for bass is futile in my opinion.

Steve, believe it or not it is a good big bass 12-18 acre pond. I usually catch 45-50 big bass a year(20-26 in.) but only caught 18 last year. I have never caught or seen a gar,carp or sucker(my wife married the biggest one in Va.) but we do take out 100 lbs. of croppie and catfish per acre a year. We are on the headwaters of the Mattaponi where it is very tannic but I have no idea why there appears to be no rough fish.

Following up on my Gizzard shad post from two years ago:

I had a load of Gizzard Shad put into my pond in 5/13. I was not there when they were delivered and frankly have not seen one until yesterday (I have not shocked since 2/13). Yesterday I noticed a couple of fish spawning on a shallow bank. I was able to get a great look at them from the bank. They were about 7-8 inches long and a little thicker than the threadfin. Saw a few more down the bank but they swam away as I approached.

In my original post I stated that since 2005 I had caught 48 LMB in the 5-8 pound range and I wanted to try and step things up to the next level, so was considering adding some Gizzard Shad. Had some great discussion on this forum.

In the Summer of 2013 (after adding the Gizzard), I caught two 8.5's. Then between March of 2014 and March of 2015 I caught a 9 pounder and two 9.5 pounders. My over 5 pound total is up to 90 LMB as of today, so the pond is still producing and I'm assuming the Gizzard are helping put some weight on the the bigger fish. I know it's still in the early stages but I am very pleased with the experiment so far.

Thanks!

Great update. Snap a pic when you land a bass with the shad tail sticking from its throat!

BTW, I wasn't active when you started your topic, but consider adding trout at least October-March. My LMB love the trout, easy to swallow, high protein, and I've noticed the positive weight gain.