Did a search but couldn't find anything recent. Anyone familiar with or tried Orangespotted Sunifsh (Lepomis Humilis)? I found a local source of them, very interesting and cool looking sunfish so I may try them out in my little RES/YP/SMB pond that is just in it's beginning stages. I can't find much information on how prolific they are, but they apparently max out around 4 inches so I wouldn't think they would be a problem for the SMB to control once established. Probably more likely that I have a hard time keeping them around, I bet a SMB will go crazy over those colors.

https://www.iowadnr.gov/Fishing/Iow...s%20of,fins%20are%20fringed%20in%20black

Go here for lots of info (FishBase). look toward bottom for specific info.

https://fishbase.net.br/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?ID=3374&AT=orangespotted+sunfish

lmoore,

Thinking along the same line, I asked the same question in this thread. So I didn't feel like it was totally resolved whether OSS are good for SMB. Even so, I will share a few thoughts.

OSS were indicated to be associated with above average standing weights of LMB in a survey of 42 Oklahoma ponds. All the same, it is not known whether their presence was responsible for this and it isn't know how much forage they supply. But at the very least they don't seem problematic for LMB. My hunch is that they would provide forage to SMB and make a contribution. Also, I don't think they would overpopulate or create any issues like that. They occurred in 38% (16) of the 42 ponds and averaged 14 lbs/acre standing weight with a maximum standing weight of 64 lbs/acre. Of interest ... their standing weight averaged more than Golden shiner and had maximums greater than golden shiner. So perhaps they are bit more resistant to predators? Perhaps or perhaps not enough samples.

One consideration is production over biomass. They have found a positive correlation of this ratio to the negative power of (weight at maturity). What this means is that prey that mature at small weights yield the most production relative to their biomass. Based on this metric the OSS is in the neighborhood of 2.86. Presumably a stable population with a minimum annual biomass of 40 lbs may be able to produce as much as 110 lbs of forage. Production over biomass not nearly that good for RES which metric is about .85. So 40 lbs of OSS may provide as much forage annually as 130 lbs of RES. Here we are considering the biomass low being at the time prior to spawning activity. RES will provide fishing opportunity where the OSS will not. A fair proportion of the RES production will outgrow SMB gape which reduce consumed forage weight. It's not clear to me how strongly OSS can persist with SMB but for the 38% of those 42 ponds they appeared to be strong enough to persist with LMB. So ... its an experiment ...

jps says - Why do you state this? Is your comment based of size of adult fish?

Where did you find this information, or is this something you observed?

Yes. Few of them will grow larger than 3" and I didn't see the OP taking interest in fishing for them particularly.

But I stand corrected It depends. (For example, how could one argue with the grin in Theo's recently posted pic below? So maybe size doesn't take away any of the charm where the fishing opportunity is what we choose to make of it)

Its public domain. I've posted links to the same article more than once. Once at the request of Bill Cody. If you are interested a google search will bring it right to you. Include "standing crops" and "Oklahoma ponds" in your search and it should be on the first page.

I think you should try adding the OSS and see how it goes, skip adding golden shiners. The lack of commercial availability of OSS likely means there isn't much information on how they might interact with SMB/RES/YP pond. I can tell you that a 13" SMB can easily fit a 5 1/2" RES in its mouth. If OSS can persist with LMB present then they should do fine with SMB and provide plenty of forage. I would much rather have a forage fish that doesn't get large enough to escape predation than one that can get too large. I've been waging war on large golden shiners in my SMB/RES pond for the last two years, a large GSH is a direct competitor with everything its size and smaller.

You have permission to use my photo?

Permission from who? My read on the Terms of Service has always been that posts and content to forum are not the community member's property any more. Simple as that. People use other people's photos all the time without permission simply by quoting the post. We can't have two sets of rules. I think the photo does show that a person could obtain enjoyment from catching fish in their ponds as small as OSS. The smile shows that very well I thought. Plus it was very handy as you recently posted it. As long as the photo is stored on the Pond Boss Forum server, I think I can link to it like anyone else can. I guess my question to you would be why does it bother you so much? I've been respectful to you. Why are you always gouging me?

Decent members of the forum don't use other people's photos without stating that fact, although it has become painfully obvious that you often do. Of course, if you stated "Here's a photo of Theo Gallus with a very small Bluegill", readers might wonder why you were using it in a thread about Orange Spotted Sunfish after commenting about the size of Redear Sunfish. They might conclude that you don't know the difference.

I’m going to put them in, I’m too late with no GSH but should be interesting either way. Thanks all for the input!

Awesome! If I had a nearby source where I could catch them I would add them to my pond as well. The closest spot that I know of to catch wild OSS is 2 1/2 hours away.

We have a small city lake near me (55 miles) that has OSS. Don't know where they came from, they were just there one year and have been a nuisance since. LMB will not control numbers because of amount of shallow water so the state stocked saugeye and has for 9 years. Got some great Saugeye, great crappie, LMB really never came back and population structure of OSS remains the same.

Snipe,

Seems I recall you mentioning this before. One of my concerns about OSS would be whether they would plague angling by fiddling. Little BG do that. I'll spot a hefty BG and just cant get a bait to it for all the fiddling. If it does reach the big BG ... it is only after a two dozen smaller BG took and spit out the fly giving away that it is unpalatable. Is this what you meant by nuisance? This worry about fiddling was strong enough that I thought I would refrain from using OSS in a pond with hybrid Lepomis or single sex BG even with LMB present.

This is one of the reasons I like those RSH and BNM so much. Not that they won't fiddle but I think that kind of forage would be less prone to that. I will mention that I observe GAMs fiddle at baits but they don't seem to deter strikes from BG.

Snipe,

Why does the "amount of shallow water" make it such that the LMB cannot control the OSS population?

I assume it is because the OSS can spawn more fish than the LMB can consume. However, it could be due to impairment of the LMB predation, or other reasons I don't know.

I would also think that saugeye would be more effective predators than LMB in open water and less effective than LMB in shallow, weed-choked water.

Obviously, I am missing something (not unusual). I am just trying to learn what factor I am missing. I could imagine some pond management scenarios where OSS might be preferred over BG.

All fish have pros and cons in the pond ecosystem. There are numerous fish species that have not been intently studied as much as LMbass and BG for how these less common fish species will perform in the pond niche with other species. A lot about various fish combinations is still to be learned. As Shorty suggests stock the OSS, watch the results and be welcome to return and report your observations with the OSS in your pond. That practical research is one good way how we learn more about fish pond management.

I say a nuisance because they have inhibited BG recruitment (at least that's the thought). The shallows of this small city lake were suddenly teaming with OSS in water only a 2" fish could make a living in. The LMB were not doing much to the population of these invaders. The only "known" source of these were in a system 200 miles away. Keep in mind, most water in the very western part of KS is underground water.
From the time the OSS showed up in about 2000, the BG population went the other way. The biologist at the time felt the high numbers of these small but fast fish were raiding a lot of nests. within a few years the LMB WR was showing signs of decline so they opted to stock fingerling saugeye with the thought these small predators would cruise the shallows at night and bust some of the OSS population down, which never really happened. The remaining BCP grew to larger sizes but the LMB and BG continued to suffer.
There has never been a determination of what the actual, TRUE reason is for this, but the OSS has been blamed for this in this small lake and they still are very abundant.
40 miles east of this is another small community lake that had PSS that were very abundant-also with no clue how they got there. Both had similar populations of BG and LMB but the PSS didn't seem to wreck things like the OSS did-at least that was the thoughts at the time. 2 years ago, the impoundment with PSS flooded badly and now there is little sign of PSS but LMB and BG have rebounded fine. 2 different ponds though, funny how every one has it's own personality.

Snipe,

Thanks for dropping by and adding all of that additional information!

Having a bunch of small and fast OSS as forage for the LMB does sound like a recipe for a stunted sunfish population that cannot be controlled by the top predators.

Even if the saugeye were picking them off at night, then the saugeye probably outgrew their forage so quickly that they could not keep the small spawning-size OSS in check.

Snipe, were there any efforts made to estimate standing weights of the community members? It would be really interesting to understand what percentage of the standing crop is represented by each species in that lake.

Though LMB standing crops vary widely as a percentage of total standing crop, they seem to average between 14% and 16% of the total standing weight when many samples (from different lakes/ponds) are taken. Swingle noted that the most ponds meeting his definition of balanced had F rations (prey weight over predator weight) of 3 to 4 (which equates to 20% to 25% of the total standing crop) for the LMB/BG combination. But its not just that percentage, how many mouths comprise that percentage is also important.

The paper on the survey of 42 ponds is an amalgamation of 42 anecdotes where each one represents a unique natural system. In other words, no individual pond is representative of anything typical. There is one pond of these samples which (I think) skewed heavily the association of LMB standing weight with presence of OSS. It was pond 29 which was 21 years of age at the time of survey. It's standing crop was 650 lbs of which there were 320 lbs of LMB, 108 lbs of crappie, 71 lbs of "Other sunfishes", 146 lbs of "Course fishes", and 5 lbs of BG.

Course fishes and Other sunfishes are where individual species are not counted but lumped together. In the paper they explain which fish are lumped into these categories. RES, LES, GSF, & OSS are the other sunfishes. It is very interesting to note how "not prevelant" BG were in this pond. 5 lbs of 650 lbs gives the BG proportion less than 1% of the standing weight. This despite BG having an average of proportion of 39% of the standing weight of all ponds considered. My hunch is that this pond's "other sunfishes" were comprised mostly of the maximum noted OSS standing weight of 64 lbs/acre where the remaining 7 lbs could have been RES, GSF, and/or LES. I thinks this is a reasonable inference given that OSS were associated with above average standing weight and because BG tend to outnumber (RES, GSF, and LES and most any other water I have experience with. It isn't known whether the OSS were introduced to this pond simultaneously with BG and other sunfish, introduced first, or invaded the pond in high water events. I think the latter is definitely a possibility and if this is so then I think this suggests that OSS are particularly robust survivors for such a small fish. So this keeps with the thoughts of the biologist's hypothesis that OSS are impacting BG recruitment. It would also seem to suggest that OSS are capable of impacting recruitment of other sunfishes like RES, GSF, and LES.

Now I would mention that of all the ponds surveyed this pond ranked 3rd in At. This metric is the proportion of the standing weight of that is of harvestable size. This value for this pond was 76%. This is all the more remarkable when we consider that OSS never reach their definition of harvestable size and that a population of 64 lbs of OSS represents almost 10% of the standing weight. More than 65% of the standing weight was comprised in the predators LMB, and Crappie. Substantial proportion of the crappie must have been harvestable. So from the perspective of an LMB/Crappie pond ... the addition of OSS may be beneficial. This provides an anecdote of at least one possible eventual outcome of such a combination's interaction.

Searching for the elusive Orange Spotted Sunfish in Minnesota.

How do you post pics that actually show up instead of a link? I would post more pics if I knew how to make them pop up like that. And good luck with that search boat!

jpsdad, I'm sure I can make a call and get a population structure report the last time it was done, but it may not be the data you are looking for.
They don't make a science project out of every lake in their district because they don't have the time being jailed to 40 hr weeks.
And to be really honest, they don't care to discuss Swingle from 1950, that is almost something they want to avoid.
The target for modern state biologists is condition and number of target sport species with notations on other species present in a given sample size, whether it's a unit effort of electrofishing, fyke net or by-catch during a target species set.
Most if not all of this type of work is now done by college students and quite frankly there is much more time spent on how invasive species transfers occur compared to what percentage of the population the OSS makes up in a small city lake. The public demands legal size fish be magically put on a stringer and that's where upper management directs biologists input.
I'm going to share something that was said to me about 6 months ago in my search for DNA results from different areas, from our head of fisheries in KS.. He said to me.. "you are looking for something that the answer does not exist for".. I know what I am looking for, 75% of what I wanted to find I did. I think you are in the same place I was in that the answers you are looking for-specifically-will never be found.

Grasshopper, that was very wise and experienced advice.

Take the pebble from my hand.

I definitely agree there is no particular answer as there are so many variables. Just thought you would kick out of that anecdote as it seems to confirm the biologists' suspicion that OSS are impacting BG reproduction in the 55 acre lake. This is not something I would have suspected. I can hardly imagine a 21 year old pond with 5 lbs of BG and 71 lbs of other sunfishes (with 650 lbs total crop) but it happened. As much as anything, I did want to make the point that the reference pond probably greatly influenced the statistics including the suspected association with LMB standing weights benefitting from OSS presence. I can't say for sure, but neglecting that pond they just might have come to the opposite conclusion. That pond's standing crop of LMB was many standard deviations away from the mean so an outlier that can skew statistics.

I empathize with the biologists' challenges. It's so hard to control multiple factors to meet license holder's expectations. Even if the near impossible were achieved ... I am sure some would expect more.

catscratch, if you are using a computer ...

1. Use Full editor and then position the cursor where you want the image to show.

2. Click the image icon in the tool bar above the text and you can enter the image's link there. Provided the link is good, the image should show.

3. If you are uploading using the Attachment manager ... then after you post the first time you can click the link to get its address and then follow steps 1 & 2.

After Snipe's reference to the KS DNR state survey of the small city lake containing OSS abundance, I withdraw my suggestion to add OSS to the pond as an option for forage fish. The example of good chance of an over population of OSS is possible especially if a fair amount of shallow water is present in the pond. Exceptions occur. Anytime one uses a nontested fish species in a pond as an experiment, they should have the possibility to relatively easily renovate the pond if or when population problems and fish balance becomes a problem.

Just making a note of pertinent comments.


jpsdad
I empathize with the biologists' challenges. It's so hard to control multiple factors to meet license holder's expectations.

Snipe
I'm going to share something that was said to me about 6 months ago in my search for DNA results from different areas, from our head of fisheries in KS.. He said to me.."you are looking for something that the answer does not exist for.

FireIsHot
Grasshopper ...Take the pebble from my hand.


That is why its called pond management - not control.
There are no magic answers - just work, common sense and applied science. Even that is not always correct or the best way. There are as many different thoughts as there are people who own ponds. We just really don't know all the answers or even the right questions to ask. That is why we share this space in search of advice. It depends - carry onward!

Thanks for the reply. I post from my phone. I'll tinker with it...

Catscratch, just did this from my phone. If press and hold the link you will get an option to copy the link. Same goes for pasting you have press and hold in the link textbook when prompted and you will get the option to paste. Great crappie BTW.

When I spent a concerted effort to learn about OSS, searching everything available on them, the one thing that stood out to me was that they have widespread distribution and yet are most often never noticed. This is norm with OSS. If you live in the plains states, the waters you fish very well may have them but you may have to work very hard to locate or catch any ... except in waters where they are more exceptionally abundant. My main reason for taking them off my priority list was because there are so many other options that I like better. Among them are some exceptional invertebrates and other small fish with high reproduction rates. I think the reason I like the satinfin group (Cyprinella sp.) so much is because it is a smaller gape fish that will fill a pond and utilize all of the water. The OSS didn't seem generalist enough to me and had potential to introduce food chain inefficiency through competition and predation. But in the end I concluded, which affirms Bill's point, that there are many unknowns, but most of all I thought they could introduce competition and predation factors that would reduce other prey fish that would probably be better choice.

I think one should never rely on any particular anecdote as an example of what one can expect. This includes the anecdote I referenced above and Snipe's anecdote of the 55 acre lake. The reason I asked Snipe about the standing crops was to check if any kind of pattern may exist in terms of the rare examples when they may achieve a proportion of the standing crop many deviations outside their mean (in the 16 ponds the mean was 4% of standing crop). Perhaps, that would provide some useful context we could evaluate. I also wondered whether LMB were very abundant in that lake. If anything like the anecdote that I referenced, the LMB would have an above average proportion of standing weight and they would not achieve a statewide 15" length limit. A minimum length harvest can't manage (let alone control) the numbers of LMB in any water where the fish cannot grow as large the minimum length limit. If the 55 acre lake is such an example, then the powers that be should allow the biologists set harvest limits that make sense for the lake instead of forcing them to resort to introducing other predators that would compete with an overabundant LMB population.

It's easy to get the cart before the horse or to call an effect the cause. To me its not very clear which is cause and which is effect. For example, are OSS the cause of LMB overabundance or does LMB overabundance create an environment where OSS can thrive and BG struggle to maintain a population? To be sure, each are reasonable hypotheses in the light of anecdotes where such conditions exist. Even so, my hunch is that community keystone (the LMB) plays the more important role and that managing their numbers would change the structure of OSS and BG.

I figured it out! Thank you guys so much for your patience and explanations. Turns out that there is already an https:// thing where I have to paste the link and one in the copied link. Just had to delete one for it to work. Oh man I can be dense!

Sorry to have derailed the OSS thread.

Thanks on the crappie! 19 inch white that I caught last week.

Never seen a crappie that size

Wow what a hoss!

The state of Wyoming is going to drain and nuke a lake due to the presence of yellow perch being there.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/wyoming-illegally-stocked-yellow-perch-saratoga-lake/

jpsdad, (AND everyone else)

Good post about OSS probably NOT being a good addition in most pond situations.

I did read that OSS could tolerate some of the worst water conditions of any of the Lepomis family. (But my trust in internet articles is getting progressively lower.)

1.) Did your research indicate that OSS might thrive in poor water conditions?

2.) If yes, then might OSS be a recommendation for the people that come on the forum with small, muddy ponds and want a sunfish pond with a few LMB?

Originally Posted by FishingRod

1.) Did your research indicate that OSS might thrive in poor water conditions?

Some sources note the OSS' ability to colonize marginal habitat. Perhaps harsh conditions is an environmental factor that helps OSS establish and maintain populations. OSS E values (percent of total weight) are probably inversely correlated with E values of other sunfish like bluegill. It is possible that excessive LMB standing crops are also an environmental factor that has greater effect on OSS competitors (other sunfish) than on OSS.



I think that would depend. I would hope that they would want to clear their water and do more. I will add that other sunfish are also successful at colonizing similar habitats (eg Warmouth & GSF). For me to recommend OSS, I would very much want to use them myself. Though I am not averse to their use, (heck they may be in more of our ponds than we realize), I think whatever forage they provide could also be provided by other forage.

One question I have is how in the heck did they show up in 38% of the ponds in that OK survey? Were people stocking them? Or did they just colonize these ponds over time?

But back to your question, my sense is that they could be stand alone forage for LMB, LMB/Crappie combinations, LMB/Lepomis Hybrid combinations. They won't do well if there are a lot of BG recruiting and so they require a commitment to numerous small predators. They are not a forage that will help a person grow trophy LMB. If I were to use them it would be to establish a forage population that could feed an abundant population of LMB. I think they could have particular promise to extend a pond's carrying capacity of LMB. BG cannot do this. BG can feed LMB and help them grow large but they aren't going expand a ponds ability to carry more LMB standing crop. So again, they can only make sense when one intends to have a lot of small LMB. I would just mention, this may not be an unreasonable goal for some people. LMB are aggressive fish that are easy and fun to catch even if limited to around 12". If community structure is not oriented toward small LMB ... I do not think OSS will compete well and their ability to sustain a population would be in question.

Finally, I don't think its a given that OSS can establish a population long term without other important factors. Shallow habitat and cover may be essential in a pond with LMB and other Lepomis. Every pond is different so everyone will get different milage.

So that's what a 19" crappie looks like. Like Dave, I don't think I have ever seen one that large. Did it come from your pond or a local reservoir? Have some good memories fishing with my brother in Milford for crappie.

Caught it out of our pond. I'm not much of a lake fisherman... ponds, creeks, and rivers are more up my alley. Of course if I had a boat I would maybe change my mind on that. I've heard a lot of good things about Milford. Does your brother live in KS?

Well done. If that isn't a state record fish then I think it may be a Pond Boss record. I would love to catch a crappie like that some day.

My brother was stationed at Fort Riley and went to school at KSU. He lived in Manhattan until about 1997. He lives in Colorado now. There are lots a great wildlife things to do around there. Enjoyed pheasant hunting with him too.

Kansas BCP record is 22" and 4.63lbs. Woodson st lake in 1957. And beings it was 1957, I'd almost bet it was a hybrid.

Just trying to imagine what such a fish looks like.

I recall going to Springfield, MO to the bass pro shop. I think it may have been the original. Lots of fun to visit. My wife and argue whether to pay the admission to their little museum in there. Anyways, we did and they had some awesome stuff in there. One was a life sized carving (so they said) of the world record BG. My jaw just dropped. That on its own was worth the price of admission.

I think catscratch said it was a white crappie, although I can't find where he/she said that right now, but when I looked at the pictures, I just thought it was a huge black crappie.

Are you thinking this is a BCP or hybrid crappie?

I thought it looked like a white crappie. The white crappie record in KS was 17.5" and reported to be 4.02 lbs. So did it have some sinkers stuck in it's gullet?

Whatever the case, catscratch, your fish is longer than the state record.

Yeah, I just looked at the WCP and 17.5" is incorrect. Not sure if that will ever be determined or not but we catch lots of 17-19" WCP out of Kirwin every year and have yet to see a 3lb crappie. Lots of 2.5's, maybe 2.8 but no 3's..
Looking at that pic I say it's a BCP but it could be possible to be a hybrid, but definitely has all the character of a black.
jpsdad, can you blow the pic up enough to count dorsal spines? I can't..

6 spines and vertical bar pattern so I thought it was a white. I never weighed it. Took pics, measured, released for another day.

I was just going by color, shape, and the vertical barring. From those characteristics the crappie looks like a white crappie to me. I've caught far in excess of 2000 white crappie throughout my life and fileted as many. Most very small, however.

With the spine count being 6 that should be confirmation that white crappie genes are in the fish. So how likely is it that the fish is a hybrid? I've always heard that hybrids look similar to whites but have a spine count of the black. Does this hold true? Can we eliminate it as an F1?

I would love to catch a crappie like that. It's heritage takes nothing away from it.

I’ve been away chasing big walleyes in the great white north, so sorry I missed some additional discussion. My pond is only about 1/4 acre and I have a big trash pump I can empty it with and start over if need be. I’ll add the OSS and give the predators some time to see how they do.

I'm going to say with some certainty, it's a hybrid. Honestly, it shows traits of a BCP, yet has some vertical barring and 6 spines.
At that length, it's obviously got more white than I'm seeing.. very rare to have blacks over 17-18", they tend to go "up"..

I am uncertain. The vertical bars do show some splotchiness which would suggest that some black crappie genes are there. Body shape, barring, spine count all point to a white crappie contribution. What other characteristics should we also consider to recognize black crappie genes and be certain the features are not variation within the white crappie species?


Buck, Homer, et al noted variation of spine counts from different ponds (and potentially 2 different crosses). One pond had 53% of the survivors sporting 6 spines. But between all ponds and all samples the hybrids with 7 spines comprised 92% of those surviving. There is also variation of spine counts within a species (though no black crappies were noted to have 6 spines). They described hybrids as looking similar to blacks as opposed to looking like whites. So the water seems kind of muddy to me.