Pond Boss
There good reasons why crappie should not be stocked in a small impoundment. Even so, hatcheries produce them and people stock them anyway. Some have success while others fail. I think in most cases, when a BOW owner stocks crappie ... they do so because it ranks above all others to be the fish he wants and that a strong motivation for this is that he likes them for eating.

Let this thread then focus around how BOW owners who are stocking crappie as a preferred fish might ensure he doesn't end up with a pond full of dinks. In my way of thinking, a dink is a fish that is hardly worth the trouble of harvesting. For me, this is a crappie smaller than 6" though many I am sure consider even larger crappie to small too harvest.

A crappie is a fish that is both a forage panfish and a predator depending on its size. They don't tend to reproduce until they attain a size that they become primarily piscivorous and when they do reproduce ... they tend to have an advantage over other YOY due to a combination of mouth gape and earlier hatch dates. Crappie tend to grow faster and larger than lepomis and in as much as this is true have potential to produce a greater harvestable weight of fish annually than lepomis.

Given that crappie are quasi predators, it is an interesting study to consider the scenario where humans and larger crappie work in tandem as the apex predators. In this scenario, the humans harvest crappie that are too large for the predator crappie to eat. The predator crappie do the hard work of cropping small crappie and in so doing reduce the number of them such that those that remain are able to attain a harvestable size by the end of their second summer. The humans thin this class of crappie just as they reach the piscivorous size allowing those that remain to be replacement predators of small crappie. Rather than allowing older crappie to pile up (years w/o harvest), the humans also harvest crappie after they achieve a minimum milestone. This spreadsheet is an example of such a scenario.

The first line represents annual recruitment of O-year class crappie. The scenario relies on larger crappie consuming enough YOY to restrict recruitment to around 400 individuals. Now this probably isn't practical, the large crappie probably need help from another predator. In any event, given a sufficient number of large piscivorous crappie(but not too many) we may imagine an optimum crappie size structure that is sufficient with the help of humans cropping midsize crappie to be a sustainable production system capable of producing an annual harvest of many midsized crappie and a few large specimens.

To be sure, I wouldn't recommend stocking crappie without a predator. Even so, if one wants to maximize production of crappie he only wants enough additional predation to limit recruitment to the desired level. It is better that these predators consume fish larger than the crappie tend to eat and smaller than the humans are harvesting. Provided the humans do their harvest, the number of predators required need not be large in number or in combined biomass. They need not reproduce provided they are systematically replaced. In fact it is better that they do not reproduce. Furthermore, by consuming fish larger than the piscivorous crappie can eat, the predator doesn't compete heavily with crappie of any size and their contribution is to enhance the production of harvestable sized crappie.

I consider such a system both manageable and sustainable. A key take away for me is that it is important to harvest crappie primarily at the length they are just becoming piscivorous. This maximizes the production of crappie(the weight of harvested fish are largely gained on invertebrates) and it insures that the remaining crappie can grow large and are in good condition to reproduce the following spring (providing a new crop of recruits and forage for the large remaining crappie).

BOW owners who envision a BOW with many large piscivorous crappie have unreasonable expectations. One can sustainably grow a few/acre each year but if he has a pond full of them the situation is untenable. For example, to grow one hundred 1 lb crappie to 1.5 lbs requires 1000 lbs of fish forage. In a 1 acre BOW this is just undoable. If crappie are desired, one needs expectations that are appropriate and he may need to redefine what size of crappie he deems harvestable. An 8" crappie may not be deemed harvestable by some folks and if one is of this bent ... then he must have predators in the BOW that harvest this size crappie or that reduce the number 8" recruits to a very small number (eg ~ 10 to 20 annually).

I think crappie are a doable fish, even in small BOWs ... but we need to understand how to exploit them and not just leave them to their own devices. Some more thoughts on maximizing crappie production . . .

* I think I would avoid _any_ stocking of lepomis. This is not to say that they can't feed large crappie, but you just don't need them. They will compete with crappie and not contribute to their production overall.

* I would also avoid stocking GSH. While these will feed the larger crappie, they will intercept food chain of the smaller crappie which are already efficient utilizers of zooplankton lowering the growth of smaller crappie.

* I would stock locally available minnow species. Where native, I would ensure Gambusia are present and would even consider annual reintroduction. Swingle found that the addition of only 1 lb/acre could increase production of BG by 140 lbs/acre in a fertilized BOW. Quite remarkable indeed.

One last thing. You don't have to know how many crappie are in the BOW. You must know how many fish there should be over 8". Select a number of >8" fish each year and fin clip them. These are reserved until they reach 12 or 13". After these have been selected ... you may harvest any unclipped fish > 8". Take all you can, each year you have another group of 8" fish to crop. Each year you need to select some more >8" crappie to fin clip. Invite your friends if you don't want as many as the BOW will produce, saving them will only undermine the production of crappie. A BOW tends to fill itself with fish, the production will only be determined by the space left by those fish that died. If very little dies, there will be very little production.

Attached File
crappie Predator.xlsx  (457 downloads)
Users who missed it or people stumbling on this thread through Google might be interested in my recent thread about the prospects for flathead catfish to control crappie numbers. Some of the users here brought up some really interesting science in that thread.
Based on my experience I would avoid crappie. My 1 3/4 ac pond was not managed for years when I bought it this spring and was full of 7-10" crappie. The bluegill and bass populations were lower than expected with most bass being small or quite large (have only caught bass 1lb and under and at least 2 bass over 4-5lbs. I estimate there are 2-6 large bass over 4lb and about 25-50 under 1lb bass. Have not caught anything inbetween the extremes.

I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch.

That said the crappie are good eating and provided good action in the spring. Suposedly they have been in the pond for at least 30 years. I'm not sure how practical it would be to try to clip fins on hundreds of crappie - I've taken out and eaten 125 crappie in my pond - pretty much eat all I catch unless I don't catch enough for a meal. I intend to contine with this - I figure it will be pretty much impossible for me to get all the crappie out but I should be able to keep them in check.
nvcdl,

Given its history, I am not at all surprised. Also at the rate you are harvesting, I agree you will have more trouble ahead.

As far fin-clipping hundreds of crappie ... you obviously misread what was written. In the scenario, only 10 fish are fin-clipped per acre ... easily doable. Every fish greater than 8" is harvested except for fin clipped fish. Fin clipped fish are only harvested when they exceed the minimum length say 12 or 13 inches. The scenario anticipate the need to harvest 400 crappie per acre but it does not include any bluegill or LMB that reproduce.

As to your current situation I do think that it might be best start over because you obviously don't have a priority of having crappie. Crappie are not helping your situation and there is no hope you will make a dent in them at the rate you are harvesting them (meanwhile hating every minute of it).

To all else. I already stated it above. If you think you want crappie ... plan on harvesting almost all of the year 1 fall crappie (fall after 2nd summer) or you likely have a huge mess after a few years of non-harvest. If you don't want to harvest crappie and you still think you want them ... then you need a predator that is up to the task of doing the cropping that you don't want to do.
Quote:
I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch


nvdll, when you say "white perch" do you mean these or the crappie?
I had never heard/read the statement by Swingle. Interesting but it seems to me that they would be almost immediately eaten in an established pond.

Also, Swingle mostly wrote prior to it being common to feed our BG. I wonder if that could be a consideration.
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
I had never heard/read the statement by Swingle. Interesting but it seems to me that they would be almost immediately eaten in an established pond.

Also, Swingle mostly wrote prior to it being common to feed our BG. I wonder if that could be a consideration.


That may be because Swingle didn't quite say it like that. He referenced stocking BG in fertilized pond with and without Gambusia. The Gambusia were stocked at the rate of 1629 adults per hectare. Divided by 2.47 it is converted to 659 adult Gambusia per acre (~1 lb). The Gambusia were stocked in tandem with 3900 2" BG. At 218 BG/lb this is about 18 lbs of BG. The production from May 2 to Nov 15 was 349.4 kg/hectare with Gambusia and 186.4 kg/hectare without. The only difference between treatments were the Gambusia. I converted things to lbs/acre as courtesy.

Swingle reported that most of mosquito fish had been eaten by the time of harvest which was done by draining the ponds. The BG starting weight was only a little over 8 kilos so the weight of BG expanded by 4200%. In the reference, Swingle didn't mention whether the initial stocking of BG produced a generation that was part of the production number. I think, however, he stocked the BG at such density so as to inhibit reproduction of BG and still attain a harvestable size of 6".

I'll comment more on this and provide a link to the reference later but have just run out of time for the moment ...

Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Quote:
I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch


nvdll, when you say "white perch" do you mean these or the crappie?


I mean white perch. Previous owner bucket stocked them years ago. Have caught a total of 3 around 10" long.
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
nvcdl,


As to your current situation I do think that it might be best start over because you obviously don't have a priority of having crappie. Crappie are not helping your situation and there is no hope you will make a dent in them at the rate you are harvesting them (meanwhile hating every minute of it).



I don't hate the crappie - they are good action and good eating when they are biting. I think I made a pretty good dent in the population.
Really enjoying this thread..... I’m one of the minority’s on BCP in smaller ponds. Keep it going so we can learn what we are doing right as well as wrong
OK so you can find the Swingle paper on fish production here.

Anyone inclined to read this paper will soon make the connection that the production system described in my initial post was inspired by none other than Swingle himself. If one digs into to the SS again, he will notice a number in the lower left that holds the spring standing weight. He will also notice just how small the number is (32 lbs per acre). This weight represents the goal for standing weight after harvesting the prior years production. You will also notice column G, which is the goal for the standing weight of Crappie in the Fall after spring weight fish have grown a season. You might ask how can the weight of crappie more than quintuple in a single season? The answer is that ... thanks to the harvest ... in the Spring the BOW is no where near its carrying capacity. Prey organisms like Daphnia, insects, shrimp, and gambusia are free to flourish and proliferate. They bind the excess energy that the greatly reduced (by harvest) biomass of crappie cannot consume early in the season. As the crappie grow they consume more and more of them. Even so, because the crappie standing weight was initially very low, the crappie could only eat so many and it was this limited predation that allows prey organisms to proliferate and produce food that will be later utilized by the crappie.

NOW STOP. What did the harvest do? In a sense it made the BOW a second year BOW again. This kind of intense harvest is able to sustain a BOW's youth. How does one kill this production system? He begins by noticing the relative weights are off the charts and begins to imagine the Fall crop of crappie will double their weight next year and foregoes a harvest. To find out what happens when one does this all you have to do is change the 10 to 400 in Row 5 column C. If you look at the forage requirement to grow 400 crappie from 8.3 inches to 10.1 inches (.28 lbs per crappie) you will find the forage requirement just for this year class is 1680 lbs.

What makes this untenable, is that that when crappie attain a length of 8", they transition from primarily invertebrates to a diet increasingly dependent on fish prey. Their success in reproduction is linked to the abundance of fish prey as well. They just quit desiring invertebrates as much and put increasing effort into feeding on fish. Come Spring the BOW is loaded with fish that are hungry. They greatly restrict the abundance that their prey can achieve in the coming growing season. In the fall, instead of a BOW full of 10" and 8" fish, the result is more dismal. Last years 8 inchers may have only achieved 8.5 inches, last years 4.4 inchers may have only achieved 6 inches and the current year's YOY don't make 4". Anyway, one can clearly understand how the production swiftly declines and nothing grows until some of them begin to starve to death or begin dying of old age.

A bow is rejuvenated by harvest. For crappie, they can reach a harvest size by end of their second year of life. If the harvest focuses on this year class then production can be maximized. Look guys, 124 lbs per acre is a doable harvest in a 1 acre bow and many BOWs could outperform this.

Lets take a look at predators now. The last three year classes are crappie that are consuming mostly fish. The plan greatly limits their abundance by harvesting the year 1 class yet they still comprise almost two thirds the Spring standing weight of about 18 lbs per acre. The final 3 classes have a forage requirement of 198 lbs/acre. This forage requirement could be provided both by crappie YOY and supplemented by another non-competing prey species like gambusia. Two things can break the system. Insufficient harvest of 1 year crappie and/or too much recruitment of O year fish. For the latter, an increase in the biomass of predators is called for, for the former, predators capable of cropping the harvest deficiency is indicated. One knows these are problems when year 1 and year 2 fish do not make their length/weight milestones.
Hoping blue cats will keep me from doing this higher math:)
Originally Posted By: nvcdl
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Quote:
I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch


nvdll, when you say "white perch" do you mean these or the crappie?


I mean white perch. Previous owner bucket stocked them years ago. Have caught a total of 3 around 10" long.


Let me just say that crappie, though they may be terrible problem for you, may be the least of your problems. Saint abyssal references a thread above that discusses the white perch and problems it causes.

I noticed you mentioned that you don't hate the crappie. I just felt you kind of resented having to remove them from the pond. I don't know what else you may have been able to harvest, but at the very least the crappie seem to be earning their keep as far as your tummy is concerned.
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Originally Posted By: nvcdl
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Quote:
I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch


nvdll, when you say "white perch" do you mean these or the crappie?


I mean white perch. Previous owner bucket stocked them years ago. Have caught a total of 3 around 10" long.


Let me just say that crappie, though they may be terrible problem for you, may be the least of your problems. Saint abyssal references a thread above that discusses the white perch and problems it causes.

I noticed you mentioned that you don't hate the crappie. I just felt you kind of resented having to remove them from the pond. I don't know what else you may have been able to harvest, but at the very least the crappie seem to be earning their keep as far as your tummy is concerned.


I don't "resent" or "hate" any fish. Just can see how crappie can throw a pond out of balance. Luckily my crappie are not terribly stunted. The white perch don't seem to be out of control - only have caught 3 and they were all very nice sized ones. Just got back from fishing today - the crappie were not in a biting mood - only caught a tiny bass. The crappie bite has been off for last month or so. I intend to hit them hard in spring when they start biting. I've added bluegill to the pond and will try to add some F1 bass next year once the bluegill population is recovered.
I was going to mention that your crappie were a decent size. What you are doing can only improve your BOW.
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
I was going to mention that your crappie were a decent size. What you are doing can only improve your BOW.


Added 400 small 2" bluegills/redears in late April

Added 275 medium bluegills in June

Been hand feeding the bluegill over last couple months - seems like the majority I see feeding are the ones I stocked in June and they have grown at least an 1-1.5" since stocking.

Bluegill seem to be spawning continously this summer as I see small fry in shallows.

My plan is to keep feeding bluegill - maybe add some more this month if I can get them as I think the bluegill are the key to getting forage for the bass.

The pond's watershield cover makes bass fishing difficult this time of year as they seem to be staying under the weeds. Leaning towards trying to kill off some of the shoreline watershield next spring with granular 2. 4-D to allow better access to shallow water fishing while hopefully leaving the grasses to grow.

Plan to hit the crappie hard in the spring and monitor the bluegill population. The bass population is on low side now so would like to add 100 F1 fingerlings next year to add some new genetics to pond.


What size are your crappie?
Frankly it doesn't seem like you have a problem to me, nvcdl. Ponds are always in ebb/flo or state-of-flux, and you have nice crappie.

Before you kill off too much vegetation you might want to read these recommendations for a crappie pond: https://mdc.mo.gov/property/pond-stream-care/ponds-fish-frog-management/crappie-small-ponds
Originally Posted By: Redonthehead
Frankly it doesn't seem like you have a problem to me, nvcdl. Ponds are always in ebb/flo or state-of-flux, and you have nice crappie.

Before you kill off too much vegetation you might want to read these recommendations for a crappie pond: https://mdc.mo.gov/property/pond-stream-care/ponds-fish-frog-management/crappie-small-ponds


I can take or leave crappie. My goal for now is to improve the bass fishery and available forage.
Dangit was hoping for another crappie lover!
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Dangit was hoping for another crappie lover!


Love eating them and they are fun to catch when biting but it does seem that they cause issues in smaller ponds.
They are good eating for sure but you have to have them large enough to filet in my opinion. With my predator base I’m having trouble getting enough of them to get to a large size.
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
They are good eating for sure but you have to have them large enough to filet in my opinion. With my predator base I’m having trouble getting enough of them to get to a large size.


I'd think a good predator base would help get larger crappie as they would keep the population in check.
Pat Williamson, I'll be your huckleberry, I wouldnt have a BOW without Black Crappy in it, lb for lb they are the most fun, fastest growing and some of the best freshwater eating fish there is, That being said, one cannot be shy about harvesting plenty of them, one of the great thing about them is the knowledge that when they get overpopulated they get really hungry, and can be caught as fast as you can cast, if the ones you catch are too small for nice fillets, I prefer >10 inches, you need to remove more of them, I can see why nvcdl had problems with over population with a pond that hadnt been fished for a number of yrs, if you dont keep up with them they will over populate fast, especially White Crappy, they reproduce way faster then BC, I have fishing access to a 3A BOW that has WC in it, if you dont remove enough of them every year you will see stunted ones within a yr or so.
If you will keep up with what time the spawn is about to happen in your locality you cannot cast into the brush without pulling out one of the tastiest fish you will ever catch,, it never gets old for me. anybody with a overpopulation problem call me, for a reasonable fee I will take care of it, but hopefully you will invite me back the next year or so after when you have some 15" slabs.
Huckleberry( gehajake)you are right about them . They are probably the most misunderstood fish in the pond. I probably need to remove more to let the others grow but I don’t catch as many as previous years making me believe there is less of them
Pat W. That is one thing about them, if they are overpopulated they will let you know pretty quickly, if you catch a bunch of stunted mediocre small ones you may be overpopulated, if you aren't catching that many and they do have nice size to them you are in the drivers seat. to me, having too many crappy in your pond is like having too many rotting strawberries in your patch,,, you aren't eating enough of them, and why aren't you?
Geha the average size is 8-10” more 8S than 10. Even this spring the catch rate is down lower than before. The only thing I can come up with is the larger LMB are feasting on them or they need a bait change to get em biting. May have to revert to live bait vs jigs .
Fwiw the local fish farm swears by a few 8-10" walleye to cure the stunted crappie problem. Buddy has a pond chockerblock full of 6" crappie. He is going to try HSB. My pond isnt large but deep and full of brush. I am going to experiment with a few BCP. It will be easy to reset my pond if all else fails.
My question for the local fish farm saying 8"-10" walleye will cure stunted crappie; how are small walleye supposed to eat 4"-6" crappie? For walleye to eat 5"-6" crappie the WE would need to be 24"+. Putting small WE in a pond full of stunted crappie means the crappie have overeaten all basic foods that stocker walleye would need to grow. How will walleye survive long enough to get big enough to eat 6" crappie????? WE 8"-10" would need crappie that are 1"-1.7" as forage. Plus - walleye are primarily bottom oriented fish whereas crappie are more open water fish. The two species spend little time in the same habitat location - niches are opposite.
+1 on Bills comment above.

In a bow already overrun with runt crappie only large predators can resolve it. If one doesn't want to kill out such BOW it very may be a situation where one could consider letting one 10 lb flathead per acre have its way for 3 years before removing it.


It seems to me that the situation of 4" to 6" runts cannot be fully corrected until the crappie biomass is reduced to the point that a portion of the population can achieve breeding status. Once they begin producing YOY then one could ladder stock the predator of choice.

IMHO, one needs larger predators than for a trophy BG BOW where very numerous small predators seem to work best. I think LMB ranging from 2 to 8 lbs would work well. Predators this large will not compete with the crappie. They will be eating crappie that the largest crappie cannot. In a sense, the largest crappie fill the niche that small bass would. I wonder if a female LMB only BOW with crappie may be good choice particularly where a non-competing additional disappearing prey species like Moz. TP provide additional forage from mid-July to die-off. Such a BOW may have potential to grow both large crappie and trophy LMB. I think a ladder of 2-4 females per acre every other year would be sufficient. An example of such a ladder stock plan is below with the goal of growing >10lb LMB.
Agreed Mr Bill
Wouldn’t HSB be better equipped for handling YOY BCP in open water ?
Lusk once mentioned a large, as I recall, 40 to 50 acre place that was over run with stunted crappie. The owners didn’t want to nuke them so he successfully used hsb
I have seen a school of larger sized hsb thrashing the water up when feeding on something in the pond. When they feed like that, anything they can get on their mouth is likely to be eaten. It's like a wall of fish moving through.
The main first concern with stunted crappie is how to initially reduce the overabundance of 5"-6" crappie that have over eaten the lower food chain and now make it hard for any other stocked juvenile fish to compete and survive if the stocker fish is not big enough to immediately eat the over abundant specie. What will the stocked small predators eat until they are big enough to eat the stunted specie?
Break the chain
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
... What will the stocked small predators eat until they are big enough to eat the stunted specie?


This is the catch 22. One needs big predators to get things moving in the right direction. I can see one advantage with the HSB. If they are not yet big enough when stocked they can be supplemental fed until they can be weaned from the feed. Even so, they will not improve the stunted crappie condition until they are big enough to eat the stunted crappie. HSB are good predators. Even so, at the optimum size of 20"+ they are vulnerable to angling mortality in many small BOWs.
I consider myself the BCP's worst predator.
Originally Posted By: gehajake
I consider myself the BCP's worst predator.


This is such a great reply.

Given a small enough BOW to work with I really do think that gehajake could turn a severly stunted BOW around ... yes completely on his own. I'm with you gehajake. Those stunted fish are just like complaining about strawberries rotting on the vine.

My home town has a municipal lake with loads of small crappie. Most between 7 and 9 inches. I have NEVER released a crappie in that lake. Not once ... and this includes fish below 7". The smaller fish pan fry just fine but after I got married my bride made me filet those little suckers. I could almost see through them little filets. She liked them fried crisp but later a friend of mine introduced me to crappie jerky and until we later moved that's what I did with them (the tiny thin filets).
I think that calls for a recipe... what say you jpsdad
I was thinking Tiger Musky, which don't reproduce and are a blast to catch. However, they tend to hang out in shallow weedy areas so might not be best for controlling BCP. If LMB overabundance were the issue, that would be another matter!
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
I think that calls for a recipe... what say you jpsdad


Pat, I enjoy preparing food but I should tell you in advance that I hardly ever measure anything unless its for biscuits or pancakes. Otherwise I just wing it and I'm not sure if I have ever made the same dish twice. My friend who shared the "recipe" was pretty much of the very same mind and so I totally "got it" when he shared his recipe. Since it was his I will tell the way I remember.


"Take a large bowl and grab a couple of handfuls of brown sugar. Add some chili powder or hot pepper flakes and some garlic powder. Add Worcester sauce until you make a thick sauce. The perfect fish is a small crappie and the smaller the better. Drop the filets in the sauce and get them covered well and then place in dehydrator to dry. When they are ready (overnight) they will still be a little flexible and a chewy texture. Not completely dry like beef jerky. I would say to refrigerate them but they won't last that long. Trust me ... you won't want to share them either."

I can tell you that they are yum and they make just like he described. I could never get my bride to try them but think just about anyone who would try it ... I think would really like them. The key is small fish so they finish quickly though I never tried it with the larger ones. Just followed his instructions. If anyone who reads this has visible parasites on their fish (as happens in many ponds), I would say cook them and don't do this. The crappie in our lake were free of any visible parasites and I never got ill from them. Use your own best judgment.
Mmmmm sounds goot!
Think we have too many predators at the moment and not enough reqruitment of BCP if that is possible.
I might try with BG. Not a fan of taste BCP.
Guess that’s why the good Lord made different kinds of fishies something to suit us all
Pat, since you live so close to Todd Overton, have you talked to him about your CP and your pond? I understand going by his place might cause you to spend more money smile lol but his knowledge about such things is so valuable don't you think?
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Guess that’s why the good Lord made different kinds of fishies something to suit us all


You're so right on that! One of my best friends absolutely disdains BG, not just to eat but also to catch. Would rather catch a 6 oz LMB than a 12 oz BG. frown
Frank you can use BG for that. The friend who shared the recipe did and suggested BG as a secondary option. Though I like BG for eating, just like Pat, I prefer crappie. The flesh seems firmer to me, the filets thicker, the yield better, and they are easy to catch year round. What I really liked about those 7" to 9" crappie was just how easy it was to filet them with a rapala filet knife. The bones are smaller than BG of similar length and the shape of the body is not so awkward to get a full filet (you know that area right behind the head). I could get through a mess of 30 crappie, most of the time, without having to re-sharpen the knife.
OK so this is a bit off topic ...

For BG, there is a floating theory hanging around that a harvest weight needs to exceed 1 lb. Now I am just talking what is described as their "marketable weight". All I can say is that it is quite unfortunate that such impressions prevail for the typical consumer. This weight is quite impractical to make BG a truly commercial fish. I prefer to release BG this weight and keep 5 to 7 in bluegill. I know a lot folks will find it difficult to wrap around their minds but is truly is a matter of perception and I guess in part one's history and roots.

Every BOW needs predators like gehajake and jpsdad IMHO. smile There is so much food, recreation, and enjoyment out there utterly rotting on the vine and in many cases doing this eating, recreating, and enjoying is just exactly what those waters need to improve the quality and size of the fish residing within them.
You are so correct about the size thing. My problem is that I don’t care for the flavor of our BG, especially in the summer heat. May throw in a few BG with LMB and my favorite BCP later this fall if the water ever cools down. After decades of catching and eating red snapper and mahi mahi grouper and such it’s really hard to consume some of these little guys ..... I’m trying to convert.....
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
OK so this is a bit off topic ...

For BG, there is a floating theory hanging around that a harvest weight needs to exceed 1 lb. Now I am just talking what is described as their "marketable weight". All I can say is that it is quite unfortunate that such impressions prevail for the typical consumer. This weight is quite impractical to make BG a truly commercial fish. I prefer to release BG this weight and keep 5 to 7 in bluegill. I know a lot folks will find it difficult to wrap around their minds but is truly is a matter of perception and I guess in part one's history and roots.

Every BOW needs predators like gehajake and jpsdad IMHO. smile There is so much food, recreation, and enjoyment out there utterly rotting on the vine and in many cases doing this eating, recreating, and enjoying is just exactly what those waters need to improve the quality and size of the fish residing within them.

I like your theory, there needs to be a certain amount of harvesting to keep a pond healthy and well managed, and that amount is higher then a lot of people realize imo, I have a neighbor that has several ponds and will let people fish but would almost rather you didnt keep hardly any, the result is an overstocked pond where you can catch 20 little stunted bass an hr with only a minimal chance of catching anything with any size, same way with the Crappy.
The long term effect of over fishing and removal of too many adult fish I find is usually short-lived, if any effect at all, Ive actually not seen it happen in private water, some public waters I may have seen it.
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. . . there needs to be a certain amount of harvesting to keep a pond healthy and well managed, and that amount is higher then a lot of people realize imo, I have a neighbor that has several ponds and will let people fish but would almost rather you didn't keep hardly any, the result is an overstocked pond where you can catch 20 little stunted bass an hr with only a minimal chance of catching anything with any size, same way with the Crappy.

Anyone who allows fishing to neighbors who ask is just awesome. I do agree, however, that they are missing an opportunity for receiving good help in the management of their BOWs. Your first post in the thread included an offer to harvest crappie for a fee. In the case where a BOW owner is reluctant to harvest himself ... its arguably worth something to him both in time and money. The idea of a catch and release farm pond ultimately leads to a BOW like you describe above.

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The long term effect of over fishing and removal of too many adult fish I find is usually short-lived, if any effect at all, Ive actually not seen it happen in private water, some public waters I may have seen it.

When a BOW is successfully managed for true trophy LMB, the effect of taking the larger LMB outside a sound management plan can have a devastating effect for the BOW owner's quality of fishing.

BOWs that are unsuccessfully managed for trophy fish benefit greatly from harvest. Typically, these harvests are not intensive enough to make them trophy BOWs but it does make them better providing a better mix of opportunities.
Information is the best remedy. Read here all you can on crappie - archives is full of threads. The more you know the better chance you can meet your goals.
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Think we have too many predators at the moment and not enough recruitment of BCP if that is possible.


I think it is possible and this may explain, at least in part, why the numbers are not as good as they once were.

I don't think crappie are more prolific than BG. I don't see how they could be. They have to be fairly large, larger than BG, to reproduce (typically > 8in TL). I would think that BG inhibit reproduction of Crappie in much the same way that BG inhibit reproduction of LMB. With only one spawn each year, its hard to argue that they could out-produce BG in terms of numbers of recruits or biomass.

If the number of crappie is greatly restricted by predation, one would expect, however, that the crappie would achieve large sizes as is often the case also with BG. If they don't, then there must be competition for food from other species that is limiting growth.
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Think we have too many predators at the moment and not enough recruitment of BCP if that is possible.


I think it is possible and this may explain, at least in part, why the numbers are not as good as they once were.

I don't think crappie are more prolific than BG. I don't see how they could be. They have to be fairly large, larger than BG, to reproduce (typically > 8in TL). I would think that BG inhibit reproduction of Crappie in much the same way that BG inhibit reproduction of LMB. With only one spawn each year, its hard to argue that they could out-produce BG in terms of numbers of recruits or biomass.

If the number of crappie is greatly restricted by predation, one would expect, however, that the crappie would achieve large sizes as is often the case also with BG. If they don't, then there must be competition for food from other species that is limiting growth.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Crappy quite a bit more finicky about reproducing then BG, they only spawn once and usually earlier in the year, which in my area means the water temperatures and levels can fluctuate more in that time of year which will throw them off of spawning at all some years?
Originally Posted By: jpsdad




I don't think crappie are more prolific than BG. I don't see how they could be. They have to be fairly large, larger than BG, to reproduce (typically > 8in TL). I would think that BG inhibit reproduction of Crappie in much the same way that BG inhibit reproduction of LMB. With only one spawn each year, its hard to argue that they could out-produce BG in terms of numbers of recruits or biomass.

If the number of crappie is greatly restricted by predation, one would expect, however, that the crappie would achieve large sizes as is often the case also with BG. If they don't, then there must be competition for food from other species that is limiting growth.


Hard to believe but Crappie can be on average 2 to 3 times more prolific than BG (based on egg production). See below

BC- Va Tech
Reproductive Habits:
Mature by age 2
Spawning occurs around April at 15-20C
Nests dug out around vegetation close to other nests
Fecundity is 11,000-188,000 eggs per female


WC- FishBase

USA - Ohio River – Max fecundity 147,800

max BG fecundity is around 50,000.

That is one of the reasons crappie tend to have boom and bust reproductive cycles.


Eric
When you figure in how many times a year BG spawn compared to BCP and the shear numbers of BG and the hit or miss spawning of BCP then you have what appears to have happened at my BOW, smaller and smaller numbers of crappie. As far as I can tell I have had 1 successfull BCP spawn in 5 years . The size is getting a little better each year but the LMB have pulled off a spawn every year and are skinny. The BCP are not skinny just not growing fast as I wound like.
I don't understand how crappie would have bust cycles because of being highly fecund. Won't argue for or against it but like to have that thought expanded sufficiently to understand what led you to draw that conclusion.

I do qualify prolific in terms of biomass/acre and number of individuals recruited per/acre. Granted, these numbers would depend on when the census is taken, but I think the first anniversary would be a very good milestone to compare.

Buck and Thoits studied a number of species in monoculture. Crappie were unable to attain standing weights comparable to BG in the same ponds. Removed BG outweighed the standing crops attained by Crappie. BG were in the many tens of thousands in quantity at the end of the census. Crappie standing weights were comparable to LMB (though lower) and the numbers much higher (less cannibalism). In any event, BG were not limited to lesser recruitment though they may well have produced fewer eggs per individual.

**BUMP**

OK, so the first line I wrote above is rather structurally challenged and I apologize for any confusion when I wrote this below.

Quote:
I don't understand how crappie would have bust cycles because of being highly fecund.


What I mean is this:

I don't understand how being highly fecund could be a cause of bust cycles. This attribute should help crappie pull off spawns and yet they often fail. I was asking for clarification as to how this attribute could contribute to busted spawns.
Well Phil every year when the crappie move in shallow and the males color up, the weather warms then turns cold and windy driving them to deeper water.. this happens over and over till I guess they give up and absorb the eggs. I only catch 8-9” crappie, never have seen any smaller ones or caught them. Not saying they didn’t spawn but I can’t see any recruitment at all. LMB every spring there are tons of YOY.....
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
.... LMB every spring there are tons of YOY.....


Hey Pat,

Did you ever stock LMB or are these all from that original unsolicited bucket stock?
Hey Bill
Never stocked the first one. They range in size from 2” to double digit (caught a double digit female this spring)
Pat, I think that explanation has merit though I still wonder why when LMB are subjected to similar conditions (they spawn at roughly the same temps) they are able to make a crop of YOY.

With regard to Buck and Thoits seeing more crappie than LMB, keep in mind that these tests were single species tests. In the crappie tests ... there were no LMB ... and vice versa. The more species the more complex the picture becomes and the harder it is to clearly understand. I wonder if 50 or so healthy overwintered adult crappie per acre will almost always successfully spawn when they have the place pretty much to themselves. Say, with no bluegill and say with 20 2 lb. single sex LMB or 20 2 lb HSB to the acre. But when they have to defend nests against BG, I could see them failing almost all the time. Also some authors reference 8" as the minimum reproductive length. If this is so, a pond full of stunted crappie may not attempt a spawn.
Phil I think bass spawn 2-3weeks later don’t they?
Pat, I am just not certain. But I do know that is isn't a specific temperature but a range of temperatures that are acceptable for spawning. Spawning will peak at a warmer temperature than the onset and by the time the crappie spawn peaks the LMB will be spawning to.

Here is link to the Google search "crappie spawning temperature"


Here is link to the google search "largemouth bass spawning temperature"

You will notice in surfing these links that there is variability in what people think is the range of temperatures but they are also very similar in terms of the range and expected peaks of spawning for both species. One reference state the LMB peak is between 64F and 68F. Another reference states that the Crappie peak is 68F to 72F which is just the opposite of what I thought (like you that Crappie peak before).

To be sure, I really don't know. This much I do know,both LMB and Crappie are adapted to spawn earlier than other species in order to exploit the prey fry that follow their own fry emergence. Their spawning temperature ranges are also very similar.
I'm not sure that temp is the only consideration. How about hours of light? Hours of light is directly related to date of the year. For example, what if the water temperature is too warm by the date the minimum required number of hours of light are available. Just thinking out loud....
As a BOW owner that desires crappy this is definitely an interesting an informative thread, Thanks Guys!
I have also been of the opinion that BC spawn earlier in the season then LMB. but that may be due to the fact that when the BC start gathering in the brush to spawn I tend to forget all about LMB. Oh well,, if that was the worst habit I had I would be proud.
Ge
There are a few of us hiding in plain view that really like those speckled critters for whatever reason. I am really enjoying this thread also. I think they are an interesting specie and hopefully get the lowdown on them
I used to catch a lot of BCP off brush pile in front of pier in 7-‘ water . I have a TH feeder set up that throws in that area. The the CNBG hang around under floating pier waiting for the feeder to throw. Now there are so many lg BG that crappie are not there anymore. Question do the BG dominate to the point that they run the BCP out of the area?
You know Pat, that just might be the case. But I think if there were BCP larger than the CNBG they might just stand their ground.

That brush pile is a preferred habitat for the BCP and so its not a good thing for the BCP if they are denied it by the CNBG.
Phil why can’t they all just get along lol. Got plenty of cedars so probably should put a bunch more in different areas away from the feeder. Got such a bloom going on that it’s hard to catch much of anything 12-18” viz. need some rain to dilute I think
The BG and BCP are about the same size....
Caught a mess of BC over the weekend, found them more out in open water and pretty deep, had to slow down the lure a good bit and let it get about 8-10' deep to get a bite. seems there are certain times that they pretty much stay out in open water more, not even around brush. fwiw
Good information!
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Good information!

I wouldn't give up on that brush tho, at the right time they will be right back in it, especially in the spawn, I don't think the BG will have any effect on them leaving but I could be wrong, I tell you what I have found is a sunken brush pile by accident, way down deep, 10' or better, and pull some monsters off of it in hot weather, they don't like hot water, they will go deep to stay cooler, and if you can find a brush pile or structure at the correct depth I will almost guarantee you some slab crappy hanging out.
I think thats why, other then the tastiness, that makes them fun to catch, because when they aren't spawning and protecting the nest, they can be tricky to catch, or get them to bite.
Imo they require more finesse then a LMB to catch most of the time, of course there's always the times when they are spawning or pre spawn, or when they are over populated when you can catch one with every cast.
As a teenager, I turkey hunted every year with my Dad, uncle, and cousin. My cousin leased some cattle land (for cattle) in Major County. The 220 acre parcel had no ponds but there was a well and very large circular water trough. My cousin put 3 crappie in it and a bluegill. The remarkable thing about the crappie was that they, each and every one of them, sat almost motionless with their noses pointing directly toward the drain pipe just like spokes on a wagon wheel. It was the oddest thing I have ever seen. The BG was swimming around like it was hunting. Now this timed about just before the crappie typically spawn in OK and so maybe they were attracted to the pipe because of the spawning impulse as gehajake mentioned. I think first the crappie will want to be at whatever depth they prefer, and second they will more focalized to structure they can find at that depth when they rest. When they hunt, they will go where the food is.
Maybe a cp is like a lmb and will hang near anything that looks like cover. The drain was different from the rest of the pool, so it was cover. an lmb will hang near a painted line on the side of a pool, or a coin laying on the bottom of a pool. maybe cp do the same.
They are a bit different to say the least. Mine don’t seem to do the same thing twice
Originally Posted By: TGW1
Maybe a cp is like a lmb and will hang near anything that looks like cover. The drain was different from the rest of the pool, so it was cover.


I agree.

Quote:

an lmb will hang near a painted line on the side of a pool, or a coin laying on the bottom of a pool. maybe cp do the same.


I did not know this about LMB!
I’ve had such a dense algae bloom this summer that I can’t catch BCP... hope this cooling temps will clear up the water some.....
Benefits of Stocking Crappie in Reservoirs by Bob Robertson.
The bloom has subsided to 2’ vis. But still not catching any crappie.... going on six years now and have had only one known spawn in that time and catching less and less crappie. Guess those double digit bass are putting a hurt on them.... maybe will get a spawn this spring
Pat, I saw a picture of a 12" Black crappie that had a height of 4.5", so a LMB with a mouth gape of 5" could potentially eat it.....
That’s probably what is happening to them then
Pat are you seeing or catching any small crappie ? Any signs of a spawn at all ? Possible reproduction inhabitation - see next PB mag article.
Eric I am not catching any small crappie at all, they are all 8-11” . They used to be easy to catch but now you really have to work at it to even catch one. I have caught and released LMB anywhere from 2-10#. Guess I should remove all the LMB for a while that size. The larger LMB appear to be fat while the under a # ones are skinny. Really stumped about what’s going on . Have not seen any signs of a spawn other than the first one 5 years ago
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Eric I am not catching any small crappie at all, they are all 8-11” . They used to be easy to catch but now you really have to work at it to even catch one. I have caught and released LMB anywhere from 2-10#. Guess I should remove all the LMB for a while that size. The larger LMB appear to be fat while the under a # ones are skinny. Really stumped about what’s going on . Have not seen any signs of a spawn other than the first one 5 years ago


That video I linked to said something to the effect that crappie broods can easily be starved out if there isn't enough of the right food early enough in the year. Could that be your problem? Could something be delaying your foodchain from developing in the spring? Or maybe the fishery gave you hybrids or a single sex batch?
Saw that video, I think the problem is temperature drop with fronts .
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