I've lived in the south most of my life; so all I know is the good ol' BG+LMB+CC combo pond. It's a wonderfully idiot-proof combo, but sunfish and black bass were never my favorite sport fish.

I've just moved to Ithaca, NY and I know nothing about the pond management strategies here in the Northeast. I'm a complete novice all over again.

What predator-prey combinations are commonly successful for small ponds in the Northeast?

-Scott

There are more choices up north.

Start here and look at Northern states links.


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=113216#Post113216

Unfortunately it looks like most of those links are now out of date or otherwise broken. I was able to find that yellow perch are an option in PA. So I suppose they would be an option in NY state as well.

The SMB, RES, YP, minnows combo seems to be more popular on the board lately, specifically with folks farther north. Depending on size of water body, you could also have some number of HSB or WE or even NP/Musky as bonus fish with a little extra management.

why RES? Do they spawn in cooler temps compared to Bluegill?

RES exist in virtually every body of water naturally. I dont think the stocking of RES is necessarily due to their popularity as table fare (tho they do taste pretty good), but more so for their benefit to ponds by controlling snales.

My thoughts are SMB would have a harder time controlling a population of BG and RES are not as prolific. That along with the benefit of controlling snails as mentioned above.

I'll go find the link to Bill Cody's article explaining some of the issues with BG and smb but this is a classic example of misunderstanding the underlying issue.. It's not just that BG are more prolific, it's also a fact that SMB tend to utilize food sources not used by other species that provide less target pressure on BG/forage fish in general because they utilize available items not targeted so much by other Black bass. This trait leaves the door open for BG to have higher than desired recruitment due to less pressure and SMB having a smaller gape. The eventual result will be BG competing in many ways with SMB. The lower reproductive rates of RES have less tendency to explode with an over abundance of YOY on a continued basis such as BG are capable of. Even the RES tend to feed on items less utilized by other species. Whoever figured this out was doing their homework really.
I'll go find the link, there are 5 parts to the article, read it through and I think you will really appreciate the thought that went in to it.

Read here, it's an excellent guide..
https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/growing-smallmouth.html

RES will likely not live in NY - to cold. PS usually fill that niche in cold waters ( but PS can stunt).

Great Article! Thanks.

It sounds to me that the SMB/RES combo is a direct analogue to the classic LMB/BG combo. It also sounds like an SMB/RES pond could do well in the Northeast (or really anywhere other than the hottest parts of the deep south). Does that sound right?


Let's say I was looking to branch out from the Black Bass & Sunfish combo. Are there other reliable predator-prey combinations that are possible in the Northeast that aren't possible in the south?

Here is Ohio.


https://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/portals/wildlife/pdfs/publications/fish%20management/Pub432.pdf

RES will not survive upstate NY - winters to cold.

See this and note they do not mention RES.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7022.html

In that resource, they list YP next to Crappie as an undesirable pond species. I know that Crappie are notorious for spawning early, overpopulating, and directly competing with Bass. Are YP undesirable for the same reasons? Or do they pose other challenges?


(I don't really know anything about YP other than they are more piscivorous and more vulnerable to predation compared to BG)

First homework - check to see if HSB are available in your area of NY. Then stocking suggestions will be more appropriate.

Bill, after a lot of searching I believe I can say that HSB are legal to stock in my area.

Wanting to stock a species and then finding it are TWO completely different things.
A good way to start in upstate NY is establishing forage minnows usually FHM or possibly shiners and if you can locate them RES and/or YP. In NY you will likely find only YP (preferably pellet trained) who if regularly fed will then grow very fast for you. Expect the YP with ample food to grow to 13" and some 14" in your pond. Pumpkinseed sunfish(PS) are often discussed for northern ponds but it is difficult finding a fish farm that sells them. Expect PS to grow to 8" if managed properly to prevent overpopulation in a farm pond.

After these fish spawn then either or both SMB - HSB (50:50) are well suited for controlling the panfish of YP-RES. Then if you ever want a fishery change you can easily accomplish it by just stocking the BG-LMB and they will soon become the dominant fish. It is not a good idea to stock LMB and SMB together. LMB usually prevent recruitment of YP in small ponds. Too many SMB will eventually do the same thing as LMB.

https://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/52348.html

Bill, in the LMB ponds I'm familiar with the FHM only survive briefly to give the food chain a kick start. If I did a FHM+YP+HSB combo, would you expect that the minnows would continue to survive once the YP and HSB mature? Likewise with shiners?