Pond Boss
Posted By: Heppy Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 02:47 AM
Stocking plan for my 2.7 acre pond.
stock fatheads, emeralds and golden shiners along with the toads, frogs, and salamanders already there. Get at least 5-10 lbs of each started in the spring, but can do quite a bit more if budget allows feed the minnows during the summer crushed up catfish food or even crushed up high protein feed to grow tons of forage all summer long!
stock the redear sunfish in the spring/summer 2019.
Option 1:
The fall 2019 stocking to do all the species of fish the first fall
75 hsb
75 smb
75 walleye
50 cc
500 yellow perch
250 black crappie
With this plan put/take the predator species about every 2-3 years just add in what you want to take out.
Option 2:
Incrementally add predator species with a focus on something more than another do the crappie and perch and cc this fall and then go on a three year rotation of the smallmouth, walleye, and hsb it would be something like this:
Fall 2019 do about 100 smallmouth and 100 walleye
Spring 2020 do about 50-100 hsb
Then every fall just throw in a few smb, or walleye, or hsb one year do a few smallies, the next year do a few walleye, and the next year do a few hsb.
feed about 100 lbs of high protein fish food per month from April to October with the multi-species pond plan.
Curious as to what others think about this plan and the choice of which option would be best in your opinion?
Note: This is the recommended stocking plan advised to me by a very well known Pond/Lake Management Company not something I thought of by myself. I will be doing one of the 2 options just not 100% on which one.
Thanks for your suggestions!

Heppy
Posted By: Matzilla Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 03:26 AM
I'd do less cc and wait a couple of years to add the crappie. Get the largest walleye you can. Bump the YP up. I think this will give your YP a chance to establish as they're very easy prey for your predator base - crappie will be easier to control once the predator base is strong and able to keep them limited - you should see faster growth and better overall RW's out of the crappie this way.

I fish a 2 acre pond that had 25 cc added 4 years ago, they were about 8-12" at stocking. The pond has bg, bcp, lmb, warmouth as well. The cc are 7+lbs this year and growing very well, very easy to catch too! That small stocking number allows them to grow quickly and not out compete the other fish in the pond. Its a heavily pressured public body of water and honestly has the best balance of all species I've seen anywhere.

You'll have quite a fun place to fish with that combination
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 03:27 AM
I'm finding I'm in no way an expert, but I will tell you what has happened to state fishery ponds with salamanders..
4 years ago 6 runs that had water over winter were stocked with FHM and 3 months later we found about the same amount of FHM remaining that were stocked with nearly 1000lbs of waterdogs total from the 6 runs. Seines were run through these about 1 week prior to stocking FHM and confirmed nothing present.
Others more knowledgeable may say go ahead but I learned something from this that I would hate to see repeated.
A few CC, 12-14" 5-8 per run are placed in right after runs are confirmed empty now.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 03:44 AM
Matzilla, I should clarify by saying that all fish stocked in option 1 would be about the same size. Larger WE would be used using option 2. Curious as to what your thoughts were on waiting on the CC?
Snipe, I would like to know why FHM were stocked in winter as FHM only reproduce in the late spring and summer? IMHO the FHM were stocked to early for reproduction in this situation.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 04:14 AM
The runs had water over winter.. FHM were stocked first of May.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 05:14 AM
Snipe, so you are agreeing that cc should be stocked initially option 1? Just to clarify what was the water temperature when FHM were stocked? If Im understanding correctly the FHM were stocked in May and the 6 runs were seined in August with about the same amount of FHM and 1000lbs of waterdogs which I assume is salamanders? Thanks for the replies just trying to get this correct.
Heppy
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 05:48 AM
Yes, waterdogs are larval tiger salamanders and they have a much more voracious appetite vs their land-laden form. They look a lot like bullfrog tadpoles with external gills and serious attitude about eating everything they can catch.
This was at the Pratt hatchery and water temp would have been 70+ by may 1. The minnows may have produced but were eaten as fast or faster than they could produce.
My opinion is add a few cats with initial stocking of forage base. CC are not a serious threat as a predator until they get some size (4-5-6lbs) on them. Yearling cats for maybe even 2 yrs forage on some plant types, even FA and all sorts of other material often untouched by other species. They will clean up sally egg pouches and young waterdogs and grow into eating larger waterdogs as things progress.
I have salamanders in the western end of KS as well and I put 10 15-17"CC in within a week of stocking the first FHM's last June. My pond is teaming with FHM, GSH, YP, male BG, SMB, RES, a few Saugeye and 7 of the original 10 CC in my 5/8 ac pond with no ill effects.
I work with/for several Biologists within the state and spend a lot of time in our state hatcheries. I followed some of their recommendations on the CC based on their knowledge of this particular issue and my plans for the CC at this point are just additional fishing opportunities for the few visitors and guests I allow to fish the pond.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 05:56 AM
Snipe, Thank you for the clarification!
Heppy
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 06:03 AM
Any time. In a 3 acre pond I can't see any reason not to put CC in on initial stocking of forage, if starting with fish of a size suitable such as 6-8".
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/15/19 11:24 PM
All,
I stand corrected. There are spring lizards not tiger salamanders that occupy the aforementioned property. They arent a threat to FHM populations. So option 1 or 2 if it were your new 3 acre pond?
Thanks for suggestions!😀
Heppy
I know nothing about stocking anywhere but West Texas. But, here and maybe other places, we cant stock crappie in anything less than 25 acres. They spawn earlier than other species like bass, have a hinged jaw, and can wipe out later spawning species.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/16/19 02:40 PM
Dave Davidson,
Thank you for responding! Im no expert myself. The way I understand it, the other fish included in the stocking plan will account for any overpopulation concerns with the BC.
Thanks
Heppy
Lusk has a YouTube Facebook program on Wednesday nights. I believe it is at 7:00 central time. Hit him with the question.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/18/19 05:06 AM
Thanks for the suggestion Dave! However, Im almost 100% positive Bob Lusk would agree only because of the group that gave me the Stocking plan. The reason I posted the information is to gain additional insight as to others point of view on which option and reasons why they would choose if it were their own. Im 50/50 right now and was hoping to get additional responses to sway me one way or the other. There is no wrong answer. I will be doing one of the 2 options according to fish availability of course.
Thanks for any and all suggestions! I truly appreciate the feedback!
Heppy
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/18/19 05:25 AM
Heppy, what do YOU want from the pond in the end?? What is YOUR goal here?
It would be wrong to suggest a stocking plan based on what "I" (WE) like and hope it works for you.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 06/18/19 01:41 PM
Snipe,
Im really glad you asked that question. Almost every pond in my area has the standard LMB, BG, CC with a few RES and HBG here and there. Your question made me go back and think about the original post I wrote. My goal is to have a multi species pond that provides angling opportunities for all fish listed for their great table fare and or fighting ability. Trophy sized fish would only be a bonus. I believe Option 1 will be the best choice because it allows me the opportunity for the diverse fishery I desire from the start. I appreciate your helping me to think out loud. It has given me the direction to move forward.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 08/07/19 04:12 AM
Time to back track! I closed the valve on the 2.7 acre pond this evening. I also added 12lbs of FHM to the.15 acre forage pond from Anderson Minnow today. It looks like because of the later completion date on my pond I will have to go with option 2. The forage pond also contains about 200 creek crawdads that I stocked from the small stream that feeds the big pond. As soon as the big pond is 3-4 feet deep I plan on adding GSH as well as additional crawdads and FHM. For this fall 2019 stocking it will be feed trained 500 YP, 250 BC, 50-100 RES and possibly the 50 CC. The Texas Hunter lm175 pro series is the feeder I have set up to purchase. Im thinking of adding 50-100 SMB to the forage pond for a 2020 fall stocking in the big pond. 6-7 SMB are available this fall and I would hate to not be able to find them fall 2020. Im going to need 100 WE as well fall 2020 ,however, Im not so sure that they would be a great mix with the SMB in the forage pond. Has anyone mixed SMB and WE in a grow out pond?
Thoughts,
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 08/30/19 02:42 AM
Reading back through this thread I now realize that I need to slow things way down and not be in such a big hurry. The fish stocked will be the same, but in a much different order. I put 12lbs of FHM in the forage pond the first part of August and have transferred approximately 5-6lbs to the main pond. I will be adding 8 lbs of the smaller GSH tomorrow to both ponds. This October/November 500 2-4, 500 4-6 and 100 6-8 feed trained YP will be added to the 2.7 acre pond. I realize that not all of the YP will be feed trained. This is very important to the stocking plan as I was advised. The 6-8 YP will be the genetic backbone of my pond. I did purchase the Texas Hunter lm175 pro series feeder and have been feeding lil strike. I am getting lots of reproduction from the FHM in both ponds and the feeder creek and will find out shortly with the GSH introduction tomorrow. No other fish will be added until fall 2020. Im making this post to document what transpired in the months and years to come.
Heppy
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 08/30/19 02:52 AM
That's cool Heppy, I look forward to following your progress!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 08/30/19 04:10 AM
Whoops! I forgot to list the 200 4-6 RES for parasite control in the main pond and 10-25 in the forage pond. I can add 50 CC to the main pond if I desire just not sure that I want them in there yet.
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 08/31/19 01:14 AM
GSH: A majority (3/4) box of #4 and a box of #6 added to the main pond. Partial (1/4) box of #4 added to the forage pond today. They were $115/box from Anderson Minnow.
Heppy
Posted By: Funky Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 08/31/19 12:32 PM
Heppy: Just a thought for you as I have done this, CC's grow fast and that sound greats, but at one point they become number one in the food chain. My CCs are now almost 5 years old, they have spawned even though told they would not in small pond (half acre). So I have at least three levels of CC and the bigest are about 30-32 inches and weigh in at about 10-14 pounds. The important thing is, they can eat anything they want, they have very large mouths! Food for thought when thinking of adding them into a pond.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 08/31/19 01:08 PM
Funky,
Thanks for that information! I am leaning towards not stocking the CC because of that exact reason. I am actually thinking that if I do add them it will be after the HSB in late spring/fall of 2021.
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/25/19 06:30 AM
UPDATE!
In late October we had some locally heavy downpours with the main pond going over the emergency spillway. The 10 pipe couldnt handle the amount of rain. At this point I became gun shy of stocking 20lbs SS and 600 adult feed trained 7+ and 250 4-6 YP. This was going to be a sizable investment ($3500) with delivery. I didnt want to spend the money on fish that might just wash away before they would even spawn. So I decided that rather wait until spring 2020 to install a siphon that I should just take a chance with a smaller number of YP. I was able to obtain 25 8+ and 400 4-6 feed trained YP for just a little over $900 and delivered them to the pond. Also 300 1-2 RES were added to the main pond. I didnt add any fish (RES or YP) to the forage pond because I will not be using it as a grow out pond and didnt think that I needed to be concerned about parasites in the FHM/GSH and crawdads. Please feel free to correct me if Im wrong. The 25 8+ YP is all the supplier would sell me. Do you think I have enough YP to seed the pond for the fall 2020 stocking of 50-75 SMB, 100 WE and possibly the 250 BCP?
Thanks!
Heppy
SMB stocking should be ok, Id ladder stock WE 20-25 annually so several year classes exist. Their annual growth rates/WR will dictate whether to stock more or fewer the next season - does sufficient forage exist to justify stocking more, or should fishery populations decrease a bit moving forward. Your WE body conditions will dictate your supplemental stocking strategy.

I would hold off on BCP for a while - they can become a management issue. HBCP are a much better choice but Id still wait until your apex predators are adult size and gape capabilities allow them to help manage BCP reproduction. Your YP should spawn this Spring.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/26/19 01:06 AM
TJ,
Thanks for the confirmation on the YP and SMB fall 2020 stocking. This really had me concerned. The ladder stocking of 20-25 WE each fall sounds like a great idea beginning fall 2020. Thank you!
I was told after confirming the BCP have spawned to then stock the HSB. I had specifically asked the question about waiting on stocking the BCP at the same time or after the HSB in 2021. The answer that I received was no, to stock the BCP in the pond fall 2020. I understand that stocking BCP in ponds is a controversial idea on this forum, however, it is hard to argue with the results that N.H has produced. As I understand it new data suggests that HSB can control the sporadic nature of the BCP in ponds. I believe Bill Cody has spoken about this in another thread. Please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood. All recent data input about BCP and HSB in ponds is greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/26/19 01:15 AM
Note that HSB can usually control BCP providing density of each specie is reasonable. Managing and monitoring populations helps a lot with achieving a balance. No guarantees for anything in fishery projects. Yellow perch- crappie combined with HSB, SMB and WE could easily result is overall food shortages. Also remember YP and BCP are forage and predator. Keep a close check on forage small fish numbers. With those 3 predators and expecting good growth for all you should always be able to always see small fish in the shallows. If not there are too many predators present.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/26/19 03:18 AM
Thank you Bill!
Note that HSB can usually control BCP providing density of each specie is reasonable. Bill can you explain reasonable for clarity? 1:1, 1:2, 1:3 HSB to BCP?
If I understand you correctly, reduce the number of predator fish if Im not seeing small forage fish numbers. Only FHM, GSH, native crayfish, small 1-2 RES and pellet trained YP went in this year as did the TH feeder. No SMB, WE or BCP will be added until fall 2020 in order to maximize my forage base. If the BCP pull a spawn in spring 2021 then the HSB will be added. I do have the .15 acre pond with FHM/GSH/Crayfish to continually add forage along with 80-100lbs pellets (eventually) per month April-October. In a couple years after all species have established themselves into the pond I should be able to reduce the predators (WE and HSB) by decreasing the numbers ladder stocked and or angling. The SMB and BCP I will have to count on angling possibly traps or dip netting for partial removal of recruitment. I do realize there are no guarantees with this plan. Im just trying to give it my best educated guess with the information I have learned here from the experts on the Pond Boss forum. If anyone knows where I can purchase Spotfin Shiners please let me know as I would like to further diversify my forage base.
Thanks,
Heppy
I would suggest NOT stocking BCP, rather HBCP - and I would personally wait a few years until your apex predators are adults to help manage their reproduction. I have personal experience with this management technique and it worked well for me [HBCP recruitment management] . Not saying there aren't other angles - only that this worked for me and I recommend this to all my clients.

Per Cody - if your fishery becomes predator heavy [BCP, YP, SMB, WE, HSB] you will need to lean heavily on supplemental feeding AND a very robust forage plan to keep WRs from tanking. I've been there, done that. Supplemental feeding of tilapia or catfish fillets helps also and is a lot of fun.

Think various shiner species [Spotfin, Golden] Bluntnose Minnows, Grass shrimp. Annual stocking of 20# tilapia might also be a good strategy.

Posted By: Funky Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/26/19 01:37 PM
Just to add my 2 cents. we have had over the past three years a 100 year and a 500 years flood. There was water in places I had never seen water and I have lived here for nearly 50 years. During all of that flooding I noticed one thing about the fish and the pond. For the most part the small fish tried to swim up stream where the water enters the pond and not out with the out flow, and I did not see the larger fish at all, Bob Lusk once said that they most likely went deep. My pond survived and did well after that, but it is scary to see all that water all over everything!!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/27/19 03:15 AM
TJ,
Completely agree with your assessment on diversification of the forage base. Currently there are FHM, GSH and crayfish. I would love to find a reliable source for Spotfin Shiners, bluntnose minnows and ghost shrimp. There are creek chubs and minnows in the small stream that feeds the main pond. Im just not positive of the minnow identity. They most closely resembled the bluntnose minnow with the black lateral line extending from the mouth to their tail best I can remember. The water feeding the pond is from headwater springs. I wish I could stock tilapia but they are illegal to stock in Virginia. As far as BCP vs. HBCP it seems both you and N.H are very adept at your profession and have had success with the multi species stocking plans. I respect both of your valuable insights and figure Im in great hands with either one.

Funky,
Thanks for commenting on your first hand experience. The confirmation that for the most part fish stayed in the pond from you, TJ, and Bob Lusk is reassuring.

All comments are much appreciated!
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/27/19 06:35 AM
Bill Cody,
I was searching the net for spotfin shiners and found a business in Bellevue, Ohio called Woodside Farms. Do you have any information on them? I couldnt find much in my search.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/27/19 03:08 PM
I'm not sure sure they are still in business. Several years ago they sold lots of if not all of their aquaculture equipment. I don't think they will ship fish. Check with them for details. I have the name of another Ohio grower of spotfin and YP in NW Ohio. PM me for info. He may be willing to ship you some eggs, fry, or YOY spotfin shiners. These 3 in my opinion will ship and arrive better than the adults. Be aware the spotfins only grow to around 4"-4.5" and IMO will not thrive in a pond with bass due to the bass being able to eat every full sized adult. Abundant submerged vegetation is a benefit to spotfin survival when 13"+ predators are present.

The other option would be to have a small forage only pond to maintain the breeding population and periodically transfer excess to the community pond. Several types of minnows can be grown together.

Golden shiners will thrive better than spotfins with 13"-14"+ predators. Amount of habitat is critical for maintaining all forage species that have smaller adult size when larger predators are present.
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/27/19 05:58 PM
Heppy, I don't have enough hands-on experience relating to the subject I'm discussing here but my fall net samples after my late summer high flow event revealed one thing to me that was obvious.. My largest RES went with the flow. SMB, Male BG, YP and even Tilapia stayed put. I have very good numbers of YOY RES but the largest adults are gone.
I had been told to expect GSH numbers to be low or possibly even absent, but they are still there in good numbers. I stocked 67lbs of FHM after cleaning out some grow-out ponds about 30 days before my flood. FHM are gone also, but I can't say they went with flood waters or became forage victims that quick.
If I had this all to do over again, I would highly suggest to others that don't understand, how important proper type and amounts of Aquatic vegetation are. It's not just the aspect of hiding cover for forage. It's also the breeding grounds for an unbelievable amount of invertebrate and other food chain essentials, not to mention soil retention, nutrient up-take and O2 production, etc.
There are other non living structure types we use that "seem" to fit requirements of protecting forage and providing spawning substrate but they lack the ability to provide "other" obviously essential elements that I had not thought through as well as I should have.
As I said, "IF" I did it again, I'd work much harder at establishing vegetation while building forage types and numbers before adding other species, and the crawfish wouldn't go in until yr 2 or later AFTER stocking SMB as true small fingerlings (3" or less).
TJ, Bill C., Several of these guys understand this better than I, I just wanted to share my observations and assessments.
Posted By: jpsdad Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/27/19 08:35 PM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57


Per Cody - if your fishery becomes predator heavy [BCP, YP, SMB, WE, HSB] you will need to lean heavily on supplemental feeding AND a very robust forage plan to keep WRs from tanking. I've been there, done that. Supplemental feeding of tilapia or catfish fillets helps also and is a lot of fun.



TJ, Would you please expand on the red letters above? Is it like throwing filets in the water that the fish eat while drifting down?
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/27/19 08:46 PM
Bill,
I sent you a pm.

Snipe,
Thats a relief to know that you only lost the adult RES and possibly some FHM. I currently only have 300 1-2 RES and wouldnt have been all that upset if they washed away because they are readily available.

Bill and Snipe,
You both mention the need to concentrate on submerged vegetation. There are currently no bass in the pond. The SMB and WE will not go in until fall 2020. What vegetation would you suggest that I concentrate on getting established between now and fall 2020? I really appreciate yalls help!
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/27/19 10:12 PM
I would be more apt to follow Bill's advice but I'm hoping to get pickerel weed, Arrowhead and a few lilies established to go with the sago pondweed and a few small groups of soft stem bulrush I have now. I believe American pondweed aka longleaf pondweed is great, and was started and doing well but my craws removed it for me.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/28/19 02:15 AM
Snipe has good suggestions for pond plants. Also search the past posts for suggested pond plants. There are about 8 to 15 types that are commonly suggested on this forum. Reading through the Common Q&A Archives is a good place to start. Here is a link to get you started.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=440475#Post440475

Archives
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=22&page=1

See this planted pond by RAH
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=39487&Number=514344#Post514344


Look into getting some hardy hybrid water lilies established this spring. It takes a couple to several years to develop a decent 10X10 ft bed of lilies. There are 4 types, dwarf, small, medium and large. Each type growing from shallow to deepest water.
Here is a link to a few small varieties.
https://pondmegastore.com/collections/dwarf-and-small-hardy-water-lilies
Best lilies are not cheap and one has to baby them and prevent herbivores (turtles to waterfowl) from eating and killing them before they get established. Good strong establishment can take several years. Transplanting is an important method, done incorrectly and the new rhizomes will not thrive. They are too expensive to be casual and reckless with them.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/28/19 03:03 AM
Thanks Bill and Snipe!
This gives me a starting point for spring 2020. I will concentrate on on getting small hardy hybrid lilies and some of the plants Snipe suggested in spring 2020. I have only added cedar along the shore and about 20-30 tons of rock thus far. I have craws in the pond and am wondering if any of the plants mentioned are resilient to the crayfish in anyones experience.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/28/19 03:11 AM
In my limited experience, craws will "stay close to home" to avoid predation. For them that is the rock piles, etc. I put my valued vegetation away from their homes and have had no problems but my craws are PSC which are smaller.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/28/19 03:18 AM
That sounds like a great point of emphasis. Thank you Bill D. for that suggestion!
Happy Thanksgiving!
Heppy
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/29/19 03:03 AM
A dense population of crays could be a problem for cultivating submerged plants. If crayfish predators such as bass, walleye, YP, CC are present then crayfish should not become more dense than scarce to low-common and most plants should thrive.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/29/19 03:19 AM
Bill Cody,
Only 150-200 crayfish were added to the main pond in late August-September. I added the 25 8+ and 400 4-6 YP in early November. Do you think it would be okay to start the submerged plants in May 2020 or try and get additional adult YP before planting? I know that I can obtain additional adult YP from the same source in May after they have spawned out.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/30/19 01:48 AM
Your fall stocking of YP should provide good spawn and egg hatching for the 2020 YP year class. If you want more larger perch for harvesting some in fall 2020 and 2021 then add more larger YP 4"-6"+ spring 2020. Plants can be added anytime.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 11/30/19 02:50 AM
Thank you for the advice Bill!
Heppy
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57


Per Cody - if your fishery becomes predator heavy [BCP, YP, SMB, WE, HSB] you will need to lean heavily on supplemental feeding AND a very robust forage plan to keep WRs from tanking. I've been there, done that. Supplemental feeding of tilapia or catfish fillets helps also and is a lot of fun.



TJ, Would you please expand on the red letters above? Is it like throwing filets in the water that the fish eat while drifting down?


Yes. Supplemental feeding programs - I cull BG and feed HSB, YP, SMB, WE and HBCP. This program reduces biomass and re-purposes as supplemental protein for my apex predators. All HSB will train and are indiscriminate and voracious, other species are a bit more unpredictable and selective, but the fish that train will exhibit crazy WR values over time, and the process is a lot of fun, too. The same fish wait daily in the shade of the dock - they truly become a lot like pets.

When I get lazy or lack the time to fillet BG chunks I'll use TP strips or CF nuggets both of which I buy wholesale from local grocery stores with whom I've established relationships over the years. I always keep a case or two in the freezer for these occasions. CF is cheaper than TP [$1.50/lb vs $3], but fish prefer TP over CF significantly.

Feeding TP and CF is my least preferred method as I'm not reducing biomass and am neglecting to utilize a free protein source [BG] - but things tend to get busy and I'm not always in the mood to slaughter BG on the dock and spray everything down when I'm done feeding.

The ideal method would be to seine several hundred BG each Spring, cut into bite sizes, and freeze for the season in 3 lb bags - just grab one on my way out the door. I think fish benefit nutritionally from the scales and bones of chunk BG vs. TP or CT fillets, also. When I live on site I am hopeful some of these projects will become more feasible.

The training process takes a few weeks - just start with fin clipped BG around the dock using a hand line and alligator clip or other easy release method at the same time each evening until the BG are getting hammered regularly. This first step will take some time to get fish tuned into looking for struggling BG - start with smaller fish [2-3"] to encourage predation. Soon they'll start looking for the BG and one can drop fin clipped BG right off the dock without need for the hand line - they won't go far before something hammers them. Feed slowly, only introduce another BG until you verify the previous one was consumed. Once this behavior is established, one can start using fresh BG chunks - and once this is achieved you can feed anything you want and get productive sessions. I usually stop feeding after 3#, but the HSB especially would continue feeding long thereafter as I've never managed to overfeed HSB to date.
Heppy - your homework assignment is long overdue - you were supposed to provide photos of crayfish top and bottom view so Cody could identify. Drop a few in alcohol when time allows so at least you're aware of the species stocked into the fishery - not all species behave similarly and it's helpful to be aware of potential issues down the road.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/02/19 08:45 PM
TJ,
Thanks for the reminder. Ill set some traps when Im down at the farm next weekend. It seems that I signed up for too many classes this semester! Any tips for catching crayfish in the winter?
Thanks,
Heppy
They're likely not available for collection - tucked away until Spring. I'm recording an "incomplete" in the grade book, count your stars you're not expelled.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/03/19 12:57 AM
You can set a couple traps baited with food-meat scraps or pet food in good habitat rocky areas. The crays in the cold season are usually tucked away under the rocks or bottom resting structure. You might get lucky and not actually receive that "incomplete" for this semester.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/03/19 03:07 AM
LOL!!! Thanks Dr. Perca. It sure helps to have the Dean of Students keep me from double secret probation because professor Hudson was about to fail me!
JK.
Thank you both for your help!
Heppy
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/03/19 02:58 PM
Let us know your crayfish trapping results. Some more southern crayfish may still be "somewhat" active and invited into traps with some good tasty food items.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/07/19 11:29 PM
The small fish in the stream that I thought were bluntnose minnows are actually the eastern blacknose dace. There are creek chubs in the stream as well. 80-100 gpm is coming through the 10 outlet of the big pond from the 3 sources of water that feed it. I need to check the flow amount in the next drought.

TJ, I have been thinking about the HBCP vs BCP and considering stocking the HBCP. Fall 2020 the 50-75 SMB and 20-25 WE (ladder stocked each fall) will be going into the pond. When and what numbers should I stock of the HBCP and HSB according to your plan if Im able to locate the HBCP?
Im unable to get to the farm until Monday at the earliest to put out crayfish traps but will report results when I return.

Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/15/19 04:23 AM
Bill Cody email sent with minnows and local crayfish that feed the main pond. Im not sure how to post iPhone pics to here. Repost pics if you would like to educate others.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/25/19 05:48 PM
Quick question?
As you know I have already stocked 25 8+ and 400 4-6 feed trained YP. Recently, I learned of a public body of water where 16-18 YP that are not feed trained are caught regularly over the next month or two. I have the capability to transport any caught fish and am wondering if it would be a good idea to put these genetically larger fish that are NOT feed trained in my 2.7 acre pond assuming I can catch them? Thoughts?
Thanks for the help!
Heppy
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/25/19 09:09 PM
Please post pictures of 16"+ YP next to a ruler. I've only seen one or 2.

Lusk stocked large LMB and they actually lost weight in the pond. Don't know if YP will do the same.
Yes Heppy, if you do catch some perch that big, please post all kinds of fotos.
If I caught any that size, I'd be eating them, not stocking my pond with them. Ha! I'd consider pond stocking of some 14" or so. Remember, it's mostly great feeding opportunities throughout the entire lifetime of a fish that is mostly responsible for it reaching its maximum potential. Sure, genetics play a part, but those good genetics likely exist in many of the YP from that BOW.
An example is Cascade reservoir in Idaho. 2+ pound perch have been caught there. Some age classes in that lake have perfect feeding their entire lives. Other fish born in other years aren't as fortunate.
Regardless, good luck fishing for those jumbos.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 12/26/19 03:45 AM
Here is a picture of the VA state record set in 2010 but not from the same reservoir. This fish is 16.5 inches. The only reason I believe the possibility of 16-18 YP is because my son has seen the pictures caught by the professional fisherman who is a friend of his who has been fishing on the lake his entire life. Guess I will find out soon enough and report back with my findings.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/vdgif/4463219900

Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 01/16/20 02:42 AM
I have no more information to pass along on the YP as of now but did learn that some of the crayfish in the small stream that feeds the pond are Cambarus acuminatus common name Acuminate Crayfish via Bill Cody. These are a burrowing species but theres not much that I can do about that. Hopefully the YP and SMB can enjoy them. I will update this thread as the additional crayfish and minnows are identified.
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 01/27/20 07:18 AM
I have a question that I have been unable to find the answer after a substantial time. Here goes. I have 140 of 10 construction drain through the bottom of my dam. The 10 pipe has been reduced to an 8 UD slide gate valve. The problem Im trying to solve is the size of the cage/guard that will go at the bottom of the pond around the UD slide gate valve that is constructed of cutting board like material and stainless steel springs. I understand when RAH stated that surface is your friend. Does anyone have suggestions on what size of cage and shape the openings should be to allow the passage of leaves and sediment to pass through the grate openings in order for the construction drain at the bottom of the pond to not clog with leafy debris? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: RAH Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 01/27/20 11:03 AM
Is this a pipe only used to drain the pond or is it the primary spillway?
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 01/27/20 03:52 PM
RAH,
This is the primary spillway with a riser and trash rack that sets the water level at the surface in the pond. It has the drain valve in the bottom of the pond. This is a conventional pond piping system. Here is a picture http://www.ponddampiping.com/conventional.html
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: RAH Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 01/27/20 04:27 PM
My bottom drain tube has an elbow and extension going upward with lots of 1" holes drilled in it and a small slotted cap on the end. I have never used the drain so I cannot report on its performance. I will say that I worry about the valve failing some day. I actually have a bottom drain on my most recently built pond as well, but I needed some way to drain water while I was building it.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 01/27/20 09:23 PM
RAH,
My pond has the UD slide gate valve. It is made of plastic about the thickness of a cutting board functioning as the open/close feature. Other than that there are 6 or 8 stainless bolts/springs/nuts (no need to worry about rusting shut) to set the amount of pressure required to open/close the valve. My drain is 3-4 feet off the bottom of the pond with about a 10x10 sump area for collecting debris. Im wanting to cage the area around the drain to allow leaves and such to pass through but not fish. Do you believe the 1 holes will suffice?
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 02/02/20 07:11 AM
I Think That I Finally Figured It Out!!!
This should be easy to replicate for anyone with a UD slide gate bottom drain in their pond. Now for the specifics. As previously mentioned I have a 10 conventional pond piping system with a bottom drain inside the pond. The 10 pipe drain is necked down to an 8 UD slide gate valve with a 10 long 1 1/4 pvc handle to allow opening/closing of the drain. The plan for my trash rack is as follows.
Pond Drain Trash Guard
55 gallon PVC drum
Drill many 3/4- 1 holes all around the drum.
Remove one 2 bung and leave the other intact. I may have to leave both intact and cut a new hole in the top of the drum if the location of the bung hole will not permit valve housing to fit. Either way not an issue.
Use a jigsaw cut from the bung or new hole (on top) 3/4 way down the side of the drum. Cut an 8.75 hole from the side of the drum centered with the cut you just made from the 2 hole. The final product will look like Swiss cheese with one 2 hole on the top of the barrel cut all the way to an 8.75 hole.
Slip the drum around the valve sideways and turn straight with the bung hole going around the 1 1/4 pipe and the 8.75 hole that you cut going around the 8 pvc pipe holding the valve. 2 or 3 zip ties may have to be used on the cut from the bung hole to the top of the 8.75 hole to secure the drum as a trash guard. Be sure to drill small holes on each side of the cut you made before attaching the trash guard if the zip ties are needed.

This should allow me to open the drain a couple times a year to get rid of sediment and decomposing organic debris that enters the pond without fear of having fish larger than 1 being washed out. I have given lots of thought to this and would appreciate all helpful feedback good or bad. Hopefully this can extend the life of a pond where buildup becomes a nonissue.

Thanks!
Heppy

Edit: A picture of the U.D. Slide Gate is here.
http://www.ponddampiping.com/accessories.html
Edit: 8 sch 40 pvc has an od of 8.625 therefore the cut has to be larger than 8. I decided on 8.75 for a little slop going around the outside of the 8 pipe
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 02/03/20 04:55 AM
Good idea. The holes will let 1" tall or smaller fish through, but if there isn't much O2 at the bottom of the pond there won't be many fish there either.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 02/03/20 05:27 AM
Thanks esshup!
This is a flow through pond and Im uncertain of the amount of O2 at the bottom of the pond but you give me further confidence that this will work!
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 02/04/20 01:41 AM
I finished the PVC 55 gallon trash rack today. Ended up with 7/8 holes instead of 1 simply because it was so quick using the step drill bit to push all the way through and pull out. The drum had to be cut with the jigsaw all the way across the top, completely down one side and all the way across the bottom in order to be able to spread the trash guard around the valve and 1 1/4 open/close vertical pipe. It will be secured with (about 10-12) heavy duty zip ties after installation once the water warms. I didnt use the bung holes on top of the barrel because it didnt look wide enough for the valve that close to the side of the barrel. Instead, I used the jigsaw to cut the 2 hole closer towards the center of the drum and the lower 8 3/4 hole a couple of inches off the bottom on one side.
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 03/14/20 03:36 AM
Ordered 2 bags of Optimal junior to get the Texas Hunter feeder fired up shortly for the feed trained YP. The fixed pond dock was completed a couple weeks ago. The decking that I decided on was Sure Step decking in the tan color with rope railings going out the walkway and black piling caps. I really wish I could add pics with my iPhone to this new format. I hope to be adding 200 more feed trained YP in the next 1-2 weeks for some fishing (catch and release) over the summer. I’ve talked to a contractor about building a 20x32 foot pavilion/storage(8x20) combo dockside just waiting to hear back on the price. Attached is a link similar to the pavilion/storage to give you an idea

https://sullivanconstructiononline.com/featured-projects/outdoor-patio-with-storage-shed/

Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 04/11/20 06:03 AM
Stocked 200+ 8” plus YP and 400-500 2” YP this evening in the 2.7 acre pond. I have not seen any YP ribbons this spring (absentee pond owner) and wanted to make sure that there were some yoy this season. These fish were not feed trained but I’m hoping some will learn from the 425 pellet fed YP that were stocked last fall. The TH feeder is set to throw Optimal junior at 7am and 8pm for 1 second each until I get the opportunity to observe how they are feeding(next weekend). Bill Cody has provided EXPERT help and so much more in getting my Spotfin/Satfin shiner spawning devices(sd) assembled. Under Bill’s guidance I have assembled the (sd) with varying widths in the crevice size to determine which size is best for the shiners in my area. Once the water temperature hits 68 degrees they will be deployed to collect the eggs to transfer to both ponds to ensure a sustainable population. I will also attempt trapping the adult shiners in the same waters that the (sd) are set. Stay safe out there! Happy Good Friday!

Thank you Bill Cody!
Heppy
Heppy, if you have 425 existing perch stocked last fall then I would have to believe they would be able to produce egg ribbons. The 200 large size (8") perch have to be more than 50% female and should drop eggs too. If your water temps are warm enough then you should find egg ribbons. Perhaps they are in a little deeper water although by us they choose the deeper water first and then later we see them in all depths, even barely covered depth.

Please share your experience with SFS spawning devices. Bill has been a great help to me as well. I found that the stack of CDs worked the best for me, but my CD structure has broken down considerably. I want to experiement with different structure and crevice size as well. I'm thinking of taking some natural sections of stumps or fallen decaying logs from our woods and use a circular saw or angle grinder and put in some crevices, some deeper, some more shallow, some arranged parallel to the pond bottom, some perpindicular (vertical) crevices and see what they like best.

My Spotfins are amazing. They pellet feed all through the cold water months from ice in to ice out. They seem to be reproducing fairly well, we'll see about this year as there are more hungry mouths to feed and hoping to see more young YP this year.

Also let me know what kind of traps they seem to enter most easily as I have to build some trap devices too.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 3 acre pond stocking - 04/12/20 12:41 AM
Canyoncreek,
I guess that I should have mentioned that the 200 adult YP were spawned out as of 3/20 according to the seller. These adult YP were added for the kids to fish summer 2020. The pond banks are not completely covered yet in my big pond and it will get some suspended clay for 4 or 5 days after a hard rain before it starts getting that green tint again. It is a flow through pond from headwater springs. I thought I read on here that suspended clays can affect the hatch/survival rate of the YP ribbons was the reason that I went ahead and stocked the 400-500 yoy as well. Does anyone have a definitive answer on suspended clays in their experience? I will be sharing the results of the experiment that I have with the spawning devices here and hope that you will do the same. Where did you acquire your first SFS if you don’t mind sharing? I’m trying to decide between purchasing a Z trap or a cloverleaf trap myself. Does anyone have suggestions on the type of trap that produces the best results in their experience?
Thanks!
Heppy
Quote
I thought I read on here that suspended clays can affect the hatch/survival rate of the YP ribbons was the reason that I went ahead and stocked the 400-500 yoy as well. Does anyone have a definitive answer on suspended clays in their experience?


Suspended silt and clays particulates affect the fishery in two direct ways, plus probably also in other secondary and tertiary ways.
1. Depending on the amount or concentration of silt-clay it interferes with the movement of dissolved oxygen through the gills into the blood stream. Developing fish eggs need high amounts of dissolved oxygen passing through the outer egg membrane for the embryo to continue development especially when the embryo is very close to hatching and more oxygen is required. Sedimentations of silt/clay onto eggs will collect around the egg and suffocate them. High silt concentrations also probably contain more fungus spores which grow on or among eggs to kill them. Proper oxygen absorption for health and swimming strength is very important for new delicate fish fry that have to continually search for tiny foods in the water column. This is definitely more problematic for delicate fish fry compared to older fish which have more body mass as 1.5"+ individuals. The larger a fish the longer it can survive without eating. In searching for food, these tiny fry (1/4"-1/3") in high silt conditions have to encounter and deal with silt-clay particles and then selectively distinguish them from food particles.

2. Suspended silt/clay reduces the amount of sunlight that penetrates the water column. Sunlight is necessary for both the suspended phytoplankton and attached micro-algae (periphyton) communities to grow. They will not grow a lot deeper than the depth of light penetration. So shallow sunlight penetration of 6" to 12" forces fish fry to forage and grow in areas around a 1 to 3 feet below the surface; again depending on the concentration of silt/clay. Plus these fry sized foods can be very limited because the silt-clay is taking up the space in the water column and interfering with plankton rather the water column being primarily food particles comprised of algae or zooplankton. The part of the pond below light penetration is essentially a food desert for fish fry. With high concentrations of silt-clay, the food base in the pond is significantly reduced or restricted.

Micro-algae feed the zooplankton as the next first level of the animal foods in the pond or food chain. Lack of food production has a direct affect in how many fish fry will survive since they first require some micro-algae and very soon tiny zooplankton for survival and growth. Late stage fry eat larger zooplankton. New fish fry basically have NO food reserves in terms of body deposits, so they need to eat almost continually to survive and grow. Without eating almost continually they die. So the more silt-clay is present the less usable fry food is present per unit volume of water. Often many fish fry starve in the first few days or weeks when not enough of the correct foods are present at the right time when it is needed.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/12/20 01:12 PM
Thank you for the detailed explanation Bill Cody! I’m more confident that I stocked the 400-500 2 to 2 1/2 inch yoy after reading your in-depth information!

Happy Easter! He is risen!

Heppy
Posted By: 5444 Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/19/20 12:22 PM
Heppy,

If you do not mind sharing, where did you source your spotfin shiners?
To my knowledge Heppy does not at this point have any spotfins however he is intently trying to locate some natural spawning populations of satinfin or spotfin shiners to collect their eggs. Member 'canyoncreek' has spotfin shiners that he has posted information on the forum about his SFS. Maybe he will post a link to those discussions. A search of the forum would also give that information.

A good way to get some of these shiners in your area is to build spawning devices, deploy them in your local streams that are known to have members or species of the genus Cyprinella - crevice spawning shiners. Golden shiners(GSH) do not belong to the genus Cyprinella. Bring the devices to your pond and eggs will hatch providing the fry. This method will have best results if the eggs are hatched in a forage pond with no significant predators. Devices will collect and accumulate only shiner eggs from Cyprinella shiners unless the common carp happen to be spawning close to the devices and the eggs get sprayed where you have the devices and this would be extremely rare because carp rarely spawn in riffles and pools of streams where shiners spawn.
Posted By: 5444 Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/21/20 03:42 AM
Thank you Bill, I will check it out.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/24/20 06:23 AM
Quick update
Spawning devices have been deployed in a local river where Satinfin/spotfin shiners are known to exist. I’m later than I anticipated getting them out because of the abnormal amount of flooding that has occurred this year. In the meantime I have added large cedar tree limbs anchored with concrete blocks attached with nylon rope along the shoreline with more to come. Utv trails have been cut throughout the property for access. Next month my brother is closing on the adjoining 90 acre property with a 2 story 2000 square foot hunting lodge. This will be a lot more work cutting connecting trails, hanging tree stands and cameras. My oldest son has built trough feeders with tin roofs from plastic 55 gallon barrels cut lengthwise in half as well for the January - September timeframe legal in Virginia. Frost seeding the ladino clover in February has worked out really well. 2 additional ladder stands are on the way for a total of 6 and one box blind. The forage population is really taking off with many bullfrog and toad poles as well. I have not fished for the YP yet but have been feeding Optimal junior for 2 seconds at 7am and 1 second at 8pm. I’ve noticed some feeding but not what I would call a feeding frenzy yet. The picnic shelter (20x32) begins being built mid July and the enhanced rock spillway starts the first week in August. Thanks for following along.
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/02/20 04:58 AM
My youngest son and I put the homemade trash rack 55 gallon drum with the 7/8” holes over the UD Slide gate drain at the bottom of the pond. It was super cold at 10-11’ in the multiple spring fed pond. At some point this summer I will have to go back down and “stitch” it together with zip ties where I used the jigsaw to cut the top, one side with the 10” hole to go around the drain pipe itself and bottom together to snug it tight. The trick was to loop a piece of rope through 2 holes in the bottom of the drum tied to an old brake rotor outside the drum. After I had the trash rack in place, I went back down with a knife and cut the rope bringing the piece of rope and rotor out of the pond. I also had looped a length of rope through 2 holes in the top of the barrel that I used to position the pvc barrel and pulled through when we were finished with the job.
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/04/20 01:52 PM
I read that when stocking fish you need to temper them 20 minutes for each 10 degree of water temperature difference. I’m picking up half my order of 8 inch hsb (50) this afternoon along with 50 cc and 11 inch (8) triploid grass carp. The water temperature in the pond is 86 degrees. The 3 springs feeding the pond are 75 degrees. Fish truck hauling water is 70 degrees. The fish were pulled from an 80 degree hatchery pond Wednesday. I’m getting another 50 hsb and 250 (5 inch) black crappie when the fish truck returns at the beginning of November once the water has cooled. Are there any suggestions or recommendations to make todays stocking successful....
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/05/20 03:03 AM
Maybe too late to help you, but.....

Water temp in the ponds shouldn't be more than 5°F different and not more than 3°F different is ideal. You can't change water temp more than 10°F in 15 min, and then you have to wait 20-30 minutes before changing the temp any more.

When you are tempering the fish make sure you don't run them low on O2.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/05/20 03:07 AM
Update:
Here’s what I did good bad or indifferent. 50 cc were bagged with O2 and floated in the shade for approximately thirty five minutes until the water temperature equalized. They were released by swimming out of the opened bag. I did notice one causality at the waters edge about 10 minutes later. The hsb were put in a 120 quart white igloo cooler with double bubbler stones drilled through the top. Water temperature began at 68 degrees and over the course of tempering for 60 minutes I raised the temperature to about 85 degrees. This was accomplished using a 32 Yeti cup of pond water every 2 minutes and draining the colder water from the drain plug periodically. I was given 55 hsb by the supplier to account for any mortality and all fish swam off from the cooler when tilted and submerged in the pond. It was 6:00 when the hsb swam off and by 8:00 a large number were observed in a feeding frenzy on the Optimal Junior in the 2.7 acre pond. I’m guessing over the next few days I will find out how successful I was stocking in 85 degree water. Fingers crossed!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/05/20 03:12 AM
Esshup,
I saw your post right after I submitted my own. What results do you think I can expect after reading the above?
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/05/20 03:20 AM
It's a good sign that they were feeding. Time will tell. If the HSB were stressed in transport and crowded together, I've seen them look fine one day and 2 weeks later lots were dying because they had their slime coat scraped off and couldn't replace it fast enough. They fungused up and slowly died.

Time will tell. Optimal Fish Food has a micronutrient pack that helps fish get over periods of stress, so that is another plus for you.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/05/20 03:34 AM
Thanks esshup! I did not know that about Optimal. I’ll give it a few weeks and post a report on how things are going.
Heppy
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/05/20 03:49 AM
Originally Posted by Heppy
Thanks esshup! I did not know that about Optimal. I’ll give it a few weeks and post a report on how things are going.
Heppy

A few years ago I was called to help a fish farmer deal with a low O2 event in his 35 ac lake where he grew HSB in cages. IIRC he did a feed test the previous few months with the HSB and I think he was trying 5 different mfg. of fish food, including Optimal. All the cages had 90+% mortality in them - we are talking cages that are 8' wide, 8' deep and 20' long, HSB were in the 1#-1.5# range and the surface of most of the cages were a solid mass of dead fish. Not a pretty sight especially after 2-3 days, you made sure that you were on the upwind side of the cage when you were scooping out the dead fish.

EXCEPT for the cages that he had fed the Optimal Fish Food. Only 10% mortality at the most..... I knew that the Optimal food was good because I had started using it in my pond and saw a reduction in the amount of FA in the pond but that really opened my eyes to just how good it was. The thing that really got me was that he had stopped the feed test more than 30 days prior and those fish STILL survived.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/05/20 03:05 PM
Awesome information esshup thanks for sharing. I’m looking to order another bag or two of Optimal Junior to finish the year. In March I paid about $51 a bag. I just looked at the website and it is now $57 per bag. Do you or does anyone know if the cost of freight or ingredients caused the increased price? I left a voicemail with Dustin today to find out.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/17/20 04:06 AM
As far as I can tell only 4 of the hsb that have been floating at this point in time. The water temperature was 86 degrees at the time of stocking. After reading through numerous threads I believe that I will stock another 50-100 hsb when the fish truck comes back with 250 black crappie as well.

Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 10/27/20 11:38 PM
Big pond water temperature is 64 degrees. Lots of new vegetation established itself over the first year in the pond without additional plantings. I need to look further into whether or not there was a successful spawn by the YP. It was a record year thus far for the amount of rain causing the flow thru pond to become very mud stained throughout the late winter until late summer. The conditions vastly improved after vegetation became established. I’m considering taking 10-20 adult YP from the big pond and transferring to the forage pond to guarantee YP reproduction next year as YP serve as both predator and prey. Guess that I will make a definitive decision towards the end of this year. Since my last post the number of fish coming to the feeder has dropped off considerably adjusting my Optimal Junior feed to once for 2 seconds in the early morning. Still plan on stocking an additional 50-100 HSB and 250 HBC next month if I can locate them.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 11/17/20 06:24 AM
Multi species 2.7 acre pond is almost complete with 200 RES, 1000+ YP, 200 HSB, 50 CC and 250 BC. I plan to add 35-50 larger 3lb+ SMB fall of 2021 from local lakes. Recently found out there are lots of TFS available from a nearby lake as well that have been here many years. I’m not sure how they have survived but I’m going to give them a chance. The forage pond and big pond contains creek chubs, mountain redbelly dace, FHM, golden shiners, toad tadpoles, bullfrog tadpoles, spring lizards and local crayfish all of which had been stocked a year prior to adding the predator fish with the exception of the small RES and under 500 of the feed trained YP. I guess that I will find out how my dream “salt water” pond will turn out. I call it “salt water” pond only because it is a fresh water pond that you can fish and not know what your going to catch.
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/15/21 12:58 AM
My oldest son just returned from the farm. He did a one second test feed that got some action. He set a one second throw in the morning and a one second throw in the evening. I ordered a bag of Optimal Jr and a bag of Optimal Bass tonight to mix in the Texas Hunter feeder. I’m still looking for Spotfin Shiners if anyone has located a source.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/15/21 03:38 AM
Heppy, I should have numbers of SFS a bit later on here. I'll know more when I clean out my forage pond.

EDIT: I just read the part about moving some 3lb SMB into your pond.. Might not want to hear this but I think you'll be disappointed because those fish grew up in a completely different situation that a structure/habitat/forage specialist type fish depends on. Don't expect any growth from those. I've tried this with LMB in some area ponds and they never done what I thought they would. Recently I had the pleasure of setting down with Bob Lusk and discussing a few items such as this and he gave me a prime example of the same situation. I think I understand this better now than I ever did and unless conditions are nearly identical, moving fish of that species at that size will have a very disappointing outcome.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/15/21 04:12 AM
Snipe,
I’ve been flipping back and forth on the SMB. Now that you have awakened me from my dream I will heed your advice. Thanks for confirming my mistake in my plan before I made it. I really do appreciate it. I sent you a pm as well about the SFS.
Thanks!
Heppy
At the risk of making things more complex than necessary.....Per Lusk and Kenny, stocking adult fish into new BOW environment can lead to:

1. fish thriving and continuing to grow
2. fish plateau and don't grow much
3. fish decline in new environment [lose weight and/or die]

Lusk had some % of each to expect in recent article regarding adult fish collection/transport/stocking. This is proven science per Lusk and Kenny, so bank on it.

Now, one benefit of stocking adult SMB would be at least getting reproduction going this season and not waiting for age 0 fish to reach sexual maturity [could be a year or two], and even if the transported adult fish don't thrive, you do have a population established via spawn and that generation growing much sooner.

Another benefit is selecting only obviously thriving adult fish to stock from your collection efforts, you're ultimately in control of the genetic selection [IE: Select only fish exceeding 110 WR, etc.]. If you aren't in love with the body condition of the fish, release and keep collecting. So while Kenny and Lusk are obviously correct about tempering expectations on the performance of stocking adult fish, there are a couple potential benefits to consider before you scrap the plan entirely. Even if the stocked fish don't thrive, you still have their genetics established in the pond and their offspring should perform well in the coming years.

FYI: I started my SMB fishery 13 years ago stocking both thriving, adult fish collected [15 fish] AND stocking age 0 6-8" feed trained fish from Rex via Fountain Bluff Hatchery. I'm not recommending you do this, however for me things worked out well. Again, just temper your expectations on the performance of the adult fish if you go this route.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/15/21 08:07 PM
teehjaeh57,
Now you are making my head hurt. Decisions, decisions....
Thanks for your very helpful advice!
Heppy
Hey man, either way you go you're not going to make a mistake, it just comes down to your timeline and goals...are you patient, or do you want to get there yesterday?

If you ever want to chat I'm happy to help, I love discussing anything cool water species oriented. I've made nearly every fish management mistake possible, and invented all sorts of cool, new ways to accidentally kill fish. We can cover a lot of ground in 15 min - ping me anytime - my time is always free to the PBF.

tj@hudlandmgmt.com

TJ

PS: I just reviewed this thread from start to finish, sorry I never chimed in sooner as you directed some questions my way. Cody placed you on temporary probation, you went ahead and stocked BCP and CC anyhow, and never posted photos of your crays so he could verify species. I do not recommend offending Dr. Perca with your insolence moving forward. SMDH. You can lead a Hep to water.... wink
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/15/21 11:38 PM
One thing about adding adult fish that I don't remember being addressed is the possibility of introducing invasive species to the water with the fish. I am talking about Zebra Mussels, Eurasian Water Milfoil, etc. I recommend doing at least Three 100% water changes with the fish, or doing the salt dip method to help clean the fish (and water) of any nasties. The salt dip is way better.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 12:46 AM
teehjaeh57,
I sent the crayfish pics to Dr. Perca and he identified them for me in PM. My pond is flow through and the native crayfish will be going in anyways. The only reason that I went ahead and stocked the BC is because I couldn’t locate a supplier of HBC in my neck of the woods then. The BC had to be introduced at that time IMO because of the 55 8 inch HSB. I didn’t want the BC to be smaller than the mouth gape of the HSB when stocked to just be lunch. The 50 small CC 3-5 inch stocked were just a spur of the moment decision on my part. The only reason Bill Cody might have me on probation is because I’ve been unable to locate SFS after helping me build spawning devices. I deployed them last summer in different locations and was unsuccessful obtaining the eggs of either SFS or Satinfin shiner. I’m still currently trying to source them after my defeat last summer. We did speak last year and I appreciate the time that you took advising me. The redbelly mountain dace have exceeded my expectations as an alternative forage fish. I hope this makes more sense now.
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 12:51 AM
Esshup,
I can guarantee you that if I end up moving SMB from a different body of water I will use the salt dip. Thank you for the information!
Heppy
All good man, just razzin ya. If you need to chat let me know. Good job on the cray id. Harvest your cc and bcp and have fun.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 02:50 AM
Question for TJ or anyone else who might know. I stocked the 3-5 inch BCP (Black Crappie) and the 3-5 inch CC (Channel Catfish) mid November 2020. When should they reach harvestable size fish?
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Steve_ Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by Heppy
Question for TJ or anyone else who might know. I stocked the 3-5 inch BC and the 3-5 inch CC mid November 2020. When should they reach harvestable size fish?
Thanks,
Heppy

Around here, BC is Blue Catfish and BCP is Black Crappie. I assume you added crappies and not blue cats, correct?

I'll comment on the CC, though. Farm raised CC that start out as fry can reach marketable weights (generally 1 to 1.5 pounds, in around 14 months. Since yours started out with a good head start, they could be around a pound already, depending on how much you've fed them.

Edit: I was thinking you added them in Nov of 2019, my bad. They've only been in there for 4 months, and all cold months (low feeding), so they probably haven't grown much yet, but they may be a pound or so by the end of the summer.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 03:29 AM
Steve,
I meant BCP for Black Crappie and CC for channel catfish. Thanks for the help!
Heppy
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 04:33 AM
Heppy:

That question could be answered pretty easily if you can tell us how much food they are individually eating per month, and is it natural food or a good quality dry fish food? wink
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 04:51 AM
Esshup,
The pond has abundant natural forage consisting of FHM, GS, crayfish, mountain redbelly dace, creek chubs, etc... I just restarted feeding Optimal Jr after shutting the feeder off last fall. It’s hard to guess how much feed I will be using per month this year but anticipate averaging about 50lbs per month April-October. As you’re aware this is a multi-species pond. I appreciate the help!
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by Heppy
Esshup,
The pond has abundant natural forage consisting of FHM, GS, crayfish, mountain redbelly dace, creek chubs, etc... I just restarted feeding Optimal Jr after shutting the feeder off last fall. It’s hard to guess how much feed I will be using per month this year but anticipate averaging about 50lbs per month April-October. As you’re aware this is a multi-species pond. I appreciate the help!
Thanks!
Heppy


Heppy, there is no way to know for sure because you cannot know how much they are eating per fish "group". The key is know how much they are individually eating. Yes I knew it was a loaded question that I asked. The 2nd question is what do you consider to be a "harvestable size fish"? My grandmother who was in her 30's during the Great Depression would shoot me if I told her I didn't keep the 5" Bluegill that I was catching. To her that was a harvestable fish.

Providing your CC are getting enough to eat, they should be around 14"-16" bu this Fall. Pretty much like Steve_ said. We stocked Hybrid Crappie (HBC) in a pond at 2.5"-4" in length in May 2019 and in a year some were 8"-9" and a few were caught that were 13". This winter the HBC were around 12" with a few around 14". Your results may vary depending on how much food they have to eat.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/16/21 01:59 PM
Esshup,
It sounds like 2022 will be the year to reach harvest size for the BCP.
Thanks,
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/29/21 09:29 AM
I emailed these pictures to Bill Cody to identify. He suggested that I post them on here for the Pond Boss community. I set up an Imgur account to be able to post pics from my iPhone. Better late than never I guess. Does anyone have a positive identification of this minnow in Virginia.
Thanks!
Heppy

https://imgur.com/gallery/LUlee5l

Edit: My guess is a rosy side dace.
https://www.efish.fishwild.vt.edu/families/rosysidedace.html
Heppy - I agree that your fish is probably a rosyside dace. Mouth size is right, similar sized, scales are correct and coloration is appropriate for the male; females have more drab color. Rosyside dace spawn in streams mostly using the active nests of creek chubs and white sucker, thus the chance is very low to not happening for these minnows spawning in your pond.
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/29/21 02:53 PM
Pretty fish!!
Posted By: ewest Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/29/21 05:13 PM
+ 1 on id.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/29/21 07:09 PM
Thanks Bill, esshup and ewest!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/29/21 08:49 PM
Yellow perch eggs and another minnow identification
https://imgur.com/gallery/wQwVREV
That might be a large female rosyside dace. Females are drab color and it looks plump like it has eggs. Mouth is correct, scales look okay, fin positions are okay.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/30/21 01:15 AM
Thanks Bill! I’m sure I’ll have more to identify in the near future as well as plants.
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/03/21 02:59 PM
Fantail darter? Can anyone confirm?

https://imgur.com/a/ltfcBn8
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/04/21 07:13 PM
Bump
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/05/21 04:04 AM
https://www.fishbase.in/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?ID=3421&AT=fantail+darter
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/05/21 04:28 AM
Thanks esshup!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/17/21 03:27 PM
New plants showed up in the pond this spring. Any help with identification would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Heppy

https://imgur.com/gallery/kDwbOlS
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/18/21 04:09 AM
5 is eel grass, 6 looks like Sago pondweed. Eel grass seems to come and go in certain years but not present every year around here anyway.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/18/21 05:40 AM
Snipe thanks for that. I think 1 and 2 might be corkscrew eel grass but am unsure of 3 and 4. Any guesses?
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/18/21 03:02 PM
1 & 2 - corkscrew eel grass
3 & 4 - elodia
5 - eel grass
6 - sago pondweed

My best guess with Snipe confirming number 5.

https://imgur.com/gallery/kDwbOlS
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/20/21 04:27 AM
Got a piece of what I thought was elodia but it has 2 opposing leafs that are at 90 degrees from the previous 2 leaves on the stem. Can anyone help with identification?

https://imgur.com/gallery/hqlBB1P
Sorry for the blurry picture. Didn’t realize it until just now.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/23/21 04:06 AM
Z-Bait Fish Trap (Bream, Perch, Sunfish, Pinfish, Bullhead Trap)
Regular Galvanized (1/2 by 1/2 inch) and Drawstring Mesh Bait Bags (3 - pack) from Reel Texas Outdoors scheduled to arrive tomorrow for pond sampling. I have located a new spot where it seems Satinfin shiners are abundant. This will give me my first real shot at catching some adults prior to spawning to put in my forage pond with the spawning devices Dr. Perca helped me build last year. If I am able to capture more than 50 (minnow trap) they will be going in the big pond as well. The TH feeder has been adjusted to 3 seconds twice a day with the mixture of Optimal Jr. and Optimal Bass with the increased feeding. My oldest son caught the first fish of the year a small YP and golden shiner. He lost a BCP and one of the HSB stocked last year all on worms with a bobber.

https://imgur.com/a/w1x588k
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/27/21 03:57 PM
Can anyone confirm that these are juvenile RES?

https://imgur.com/a/TyaUpqz

Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Augie Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/27/21 05:03 PM
I'd call all three of them BG.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/27/21 05:33 PM
Thanks for the help Augie even if it’s not what I wanted to hear and suspected.
Heppy
Posted By: Augie Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/27/21 06:12 PM
I've been having decent results controlling BG numbers by constant trapping.
Every one I catch goes into a cage, then either into my bait pond or my buddy's quarry lake, or into a batch of BG puree for my baby RES.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/28/21 01:22 AM
Augie It seems that I got my Ztrap at the perfect time. I caught 35-40 small BG in it with a 3 hour soak this afternoon. I think that this will be my best bet for controlling them. The first 3 caught in the the trap were put back in the pond dead to feed the CC or any fish that will eat them. The same will be done with all BG from here moving forward. Thanks for the tip!
Heppy
Posted By: Augie Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/28/21 01:18 PM
Z trap is a very effective tool. Keep it soaking and you will be able to remove a mountain of BG.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/28/21 01:47 PM
I’m moving the Z trap around the pond to find the spots where it is most effective with dog food in a mesh bag. Shallow areas along the dam have been the best thus far. I agree with you Augie this trap should be able to control the unwanted BG population. In addition you also get to sample other fish and evaluate how they are doing.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/28/21 09:38 PM
I’m thinking of adding an additional trap after trapping 50-60 small BG on a 3 hour soak. The 28 inch size has a 1/2 inch width by 15 inch long opening on the 3 entry points. Does anyone have any experience with this one or can recommend a similar cloverleaf trap? The Z trap is great. I just want to compare the results on the 2 different styles.

https://ktraps.com/products/cloverleaf-trap?variant=32243846676524
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/29/21 04:19 AM
I found 2 other cloverleaf traps and wondered if anyone has had any experience with any of the 3 pros or cons. Any help is greatly appreciated!

https://www.memphisnet.net/product/2382/traps-fish-minnow

https://www.reeltexasoutdoors.com/p...-trap-perch-trap-bream-trap-pinfish-trap
Thanks!
Heppy
The Memphis trap has 1" square mesh. I would go with the 1/2" models if you are trying to get all the fish you can and are not just targeting the next larger class. I really like the framed construction of the Ktrap, but it seems to lack the separate and centralized bait compartment. I have built my own cloverleaf and it very closely resembles the Real Texas model. I am happy with it's size and function.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/29/21 02:51 PM
Thank you for your response to my post Quarter Acre! I purchased the Z trap with 1/2 inch squares from Reel Texas Outdoors and have been putting a mesh bag with dog food in it with excellent results on small BG. I agree with you that the trap needs to have the 1/2 inch squares to catch all sizes. My question is the 1/2 inch width of the K trap opening large enough to allow adult BG to enter the trap?
1/2" opening gap is too narrow for adult panfish. I have openings on mine set at about 1-1/4" wide...I have never trapped a panfish over, say, 1/3 pound. I would stretch open the gaps to be about 1/4 to 3/8" wider than the adult fish size (thickness) that you are targeting.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/29/21 04:58 PM
Quarter Acre are you saying that the width of the opening should be 1 1/2” - 1 5/8” ideally to catch adult panfish?
Thanks!
Heppy
Maybe Augie can chime in here with his slot size and catch sizes to confirm this, but that is what I am saying. However, I have never targeted the larger panfish with my trap. I am basing it on the fact that I have caught several 1/3 pound fish with my 1-1/4 opening and these 1/3 pound fish were about an inch wide. That extra 1/4" allows them to enter without the fear of getting hung up. Mostly, my trap catches the smaller 2 to 4 inch fish with the 1-1/4 opening. You may find that you need to open the slit up a fair amount to catch the whoppers.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/29/21 05:57 PM
Thanks Quarter Acre! Does anyone know the width of an adult BG?
Thanks!
Heppy
Posted By: Augie Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/29/21 06:31 PM
I built my Z trap to catch the little ones. IIRC, the slots are 3/4"x4"-ish. Mesh size is 1/4". 4" BG is about the biggest that it will catch.
It also gets plenty of sub-6" YP, FHM, and GSH. No bait required. Just soak it.

My strategy of "managing around" the BG is to remove as many small ones as I can by trapping, and let the ones that get away
turn into whoppers for the grandkids to catch on R&R.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/29/21 07:12 PM
Augie thanks for the details and that might be the solution that I end up doing. However, I contacted Ktraps and he is willing to modify any trap he makes to the width that I want. More specifically he asked what is the width of the adult BG? My thought on this is the more adult BG I can remove the less juvenile BG I will have to remove. Next year I’m thinking this shouldn’t be as big of an issue because the BCP will be large enough to hammer up to I’m guessing about 3 inch long juvenile BG.
Thought: I put 250 BCP last November I wonder if I can find another 50 adult BCP to put in now to assist me with my trapping?
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/07/21 05:40 PM
I wanted to share a website that was given to me to help anyone that is looking to stock alternative native forage for their ponds. I am picking up my Z trap from the farm and my adventure begins next week for the Satinfin shiner. If you would like to catch/trap your own to diversify forage in your own pond this one is for you.

http://fishmap.org/

Enjoy!
Heppy
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/12/21 04:03 AM
I wanted to add a post here for the future mentioned by Matzilla in another thread. Stunted BCP can be caught in a cloverleaf trap baited with a can of tuna with holes in it at mid-depth. Thanks for that information Matzilla!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/17/21 12:42 AM
Feeding Optimal Junior and Optimal Bass mix at 6 seconds in the morning and 7 seconds in the evening. 2 more traps (cloverleaf) arrived today to tackle the unwanted BG and capture the Satinfin shiners
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/19/21 08:33 PM
Has anyone ever tried something like this? I was wondering if the color of the barrel made any difference with cool water species fish as a holding tank or would a fish cage be much better?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fKD5MyRAK5c

Thanks!
I don't think the color would make much difference. I would choose white, but if it stays in the pond...it's going to discolor anyhow. With that said, I would use a box (or cylindrical) cage instead made from wire cloth just hanging from a rope off the dock if it is something that will be pulled out often. I have a box cage made from plastic coated wire mesh and like it alot for that purpose. That barrel cage is going to be a booger to get in and out of the water and will be as much, if not more, work than hog ringing some wire mesh together. They drilled alot of holes in it, but it will take a fair amount of time while pulling it out of the water to drain enough to be light enough to handle... a wire cage will not have this problem. The barrel cage would work better and last longer if it were a permanent installation in the water and you used a long-ish net to retrieve the bait. At that point I would forego the flotation noodle and just mount it to the dock.

My 2¢
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/23/21 11:17 AM
Thanks QA! That gives me some information to think about.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/05/21 11:57 AM
Finally! Satinfin or Spotfin shiner?
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Thanks esshup for removing the link and adding the picture!
Posted By: jpsdad Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/06/21 10:22 AM
My 2 cents goes with Satinfin. Pretty fish.
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/06/21 11:00 PM
Adding the picture is easy once it's on Imgur.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/06/21 11:26 PM
Esshup care to elaborate on how you do it?
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/07/21 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by Heppy
Esshup care to elaborate on how you do it?

I do everything from a desktop, so if you are doing it on a phone or tablet, I have no clue.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

O.K. Here's how I did it for your pictures in imgur.

I clicked on your link. That opened the picture. Right click on the picture then click on "copy image link".

Then come to the forum, click on "use full editor" in a reply. Go to right above the text box for the reply and hover over the thing that looks like a framed picture. Left click that, then paste in the image link that you copied from Imgur. Click on OK and you are done.

If you are logged into your imgur account, go to your pictures and click on the pencil in the upper right corner. left click on "get share links". Copy the BBCode one. just paste it in the post and you are done. No need to go to the "use full editor".
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/07/21 05:12 AM
Esshup,
Thanks! I’m using an iPhone and can only dream that HSB came from my links in this thread.
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/07/21 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Heppy
Esshup,
Thanks! I’m using an iPhone and can only dream that HSB came from my links in this thread.


Maybe someone that has an iPhone can help. I know Fireishot has one.

That's a 4 yr old HSB from my pond, I feed a mixture of Optimal BLuegill and Bass food, 40#-60#/month depending on how they are eating. I know I am not feeding as much as they will eat.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/16/21 04:42 AM
Set 2 spawning devices for Satinfin shiners at my sons friend boat dock early this afternoon. We also set 2 minnow traps and used a cast net to try and catch the adults. Only 2 were caught in the cast net and none in the minnow traps baited with bread and dog food as of 9pm. The mesh size of the 6 foot cast net is 3/8 of an inch. This mesh size is too large for my objective. I will be trying 3/16 mesh if I’m able to locate one before we go back on Thursday or Friday evening. In my correspondence with Bill Cody he said “ If you are seeing school of them around the dock the spawning device should be full of eggs after 2-3 days and haul the egg filled device home to the pond for egg hatch in 5-7 days. Replace each egg filled device at the docks with another 1 or 2 devices and keep the cycle going all summer.” It appears that I will need to build more spawning devices in the near future. A couple of questions that I hope someone can answer.
1. Would the Satinfin shiner eggs/fry be better off in the forage pond with golden shiners, FHM, mountain redbelly dace, rosyside dace and creek chubs or in the stream that feeds the creek above the pond without golden shiners? I ask this because as I understand it the golden shiners are notorious egg eaters.
2. Does anyone know the preferred bait of Spotfin/Satinfin shiners in a minnow trap?
3. What is the recommended mesh size used for these 3 inch shiners and where do I find one?
Thanks!
Questions.
1. Would the Satinfin shiner eggs/fry be better off in the forage pond with golden shiners, FHM, mountain redbelly dace, rosyside dace and creek chubs or in the stream that feeds the creek above the pond without golden shiners? I ask this because as I understand it the golden shiners are notorious egg eaters. GS WILL NOT EAT VERY MANY OF THE SATINFIN EGGS BECAUSE THE EGGS ARE DEPOSITED INTO THE CREVICES AWAY FROM EXPOSURE TO THE GS. GS AND OTHER FISH WILL EAT THE NEW FRY OF ALL FISH.
2. Does anyone know the preferred bait of Spotfin/Satinfin shiners in a minnow trap? GOOD QUESTION . TRY FISH FOOD.
3. What is the recommended mesh size used for these 3 inch shiners and where do I find one? 1/4" . IMO A CAST NET WILL NOT CATCH VERY MANY SATINFIN NOR SPOTFIN BECAUSE THESE SHINERS SWIM TOO FAST AND WILL ESCAPE THE NET BEHAVIOR.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/16/21 10:21 PM
Thank you Bill! I thought the information you previously shared with me would be helpful for myself and others in the future who decide to stock their own pond with Satinfin/Spotfin shiners. Your knowledge is vast and I hope to capture just some of it in this thread. From what I have observed thus far I’m guessing a 6 to 8 foot (12-16 ‘ diameter) cast net with 1/4 inch mesh and 1-1.5 lbs per foot will give me the best shot at capturing the adults if Optimal Bass doesn’t do so in the traps. The egg filled spawning devices will go in the forage pond. I really appreciate you taking the time to guide me along through this process.
Posted By: jpsdad Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/16/21 11:25 PM
This probably a really bad idea. But could a small spawning structure be placed in the source and transferred to a forage grow out after eggs are deposited?
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/17/21 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by jpsdad
This probably a really bad idea. But could a small spawning structure be placed in the source and transferred to a forage grow out after eggs are deposited?

jpsdad,
Your “really bad idea” is exactly what Bill Cody has me doing so I think you can rest assured that it is a great idea. I’m also trying to trap and cast net adults. My oldest son and I are going to check the spawning devices, minnow traps and throw the cast net tomorrow evening.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/18/21 05:53 AM
This evening we checked the traps with dog food and bread in them and there was nothing left in either trap. One trap is on the bottom and the other is suspended about 2 feet below the surface. We put Optimal bass in both traps and will check again this weekend. The spawning devices were originally hanging off the dock submerged between 12 and 16 inches. Both came up without any eggs that I could visibly see. I moved the spawning devices where one is 2-3 inches off the bottom in about 3 to 4 feet of water. The other spawning device is about a foot from the surface in 2-3 feet of water. We will check these again this weekend. I did some experimenting with the 2 Satinfin shiners caught 2 days ago. A fully charged deep cycle battery has been running on the double bubbler in the white 120 quart igloo cooler with 2 holes drilled for the air lines and 1 tablespoon of finer shiner 24 hours a day. Today I added enough water to reach 3/4 full in the cooler with an additional tablespoon of finer shiner. This evening I managed to find a 7 foot 1/4 inch mesh cast net to use and the results were nothing short of miraculous. Every Satinfin shiner on the surface thrown on within one foot of the edge of the open net was caught! However, only 6 of the 8 we threw the cast net on met that criteria. The 6 adults caught tonight along with the 2 caught Tuesday will be going in the forage pond tomorrow. They are doing great in my transport cooler. Slowly but surely I am getting where I am going while making adjustments in having Satinfin shiners in my pond.

This article is why the one spawning device is 2-3 inches from the bottom.
http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/cek7/nyfish/Cyprinidae/satinfin_shiner.html
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/19/21 12:38 AM
Successfully transferred 4 of the Satinfin shiners to the forage pond and 4 to the main stream that feeds the big pond. I figured out that my 12 volt deep cycle battery ran from Tuesday evening until 6:00 tonight and all shiners survived the transport. In other words 24/7 for 3 days in a row of battery life. I was surprised that the Satinfin shiners from Tuesday evening were able to thrive with only the double bubbler and finer shiner added for 72 hours. The water temperature of the cooler was 83 degrees. This gives me confidence going forward with the transportation of these adult fish.
Quote
[/quote][quote] "moved the spawning devices where one is 2-3 inches off the bottom in about 3 to 4 feet of water. The other spawning device is about a foot from the surface in 2-3 feet of water."

I predict the spawning device in 1ft of water will gather more eggs than the device close to the bottom in 3-4ft of water. This is what works well for spotfins so we will see if the behavior holds true for the satinfin shiner.

Quote
This article is why the one spawning device is 2-3 inches from the bottom.
http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/cek7/nyfish/Cyprinidae/satinfin_shiner.html
Note in the referenced study the water in the pool was only 6" to 7.5" deep (150mm-200mm); so there was not much water depth above the spawning device even though it was placed a couple inches from the bottom.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/19/21 03:38 PM
Bill, I wanted to get the spawning devices even closer to to the shoreline by the dock but I didn’t have a hammer and nail with me. I saw in the referenced article the 6-7.5 inch deep pool and just experimented with the deeper water in the lake. The lake has 500 miles of shoreline and I feel fortunate to even locate them after searching for over a year. The depth of the pool referenced in the article is why 4 of the Satinfin shiners were put into the small stream that feeds the big pond. I’m going to put one of the spawning devices in the pool where I stocked the 4 Satinfin shiners to mimic those conditions in the article. In the little experience with these fish I have found:
1. The water temperature in the cooler stays at 83 degrees with my setup in the transport cooler even though the outside temperatures have been in the 90’s. It’s a white 120 quart cooler with only 2 holes drilled in the top for the air lines and a tablespoon of finer shiner. I should also note that my Tacoma has a black tonneau cover closed.
2. The deep cycle battery has a minimum life of 72 hours running 24/7 with the double bubbler.
3. The adult Satinfin shiner seems to be a hardy fish that tolerates transport well over an extended period of time.
4. A 1/4 inch mesh 6-8 foot cast net is a must have in capturing these super evasive shiner when seen on the surface.
I will update when I have more information to share.
I was curious about the difference(s) between spotfin shiner and satinfin shiner. It sounds like except for minor variation in the number of rays in the anal fin and color changes at the time of spawning, they are almost the same creature.

I found this and thought it interesting reading about these cool shiners. Heppy, if you save some for an aquarium, they should be in spawning colors soon (mid June if I recall right once temps are right in the waters)

===============================

Fishes Of The Lower Susquehanna And Northern Chesapeake Tributaries, Part IV (Minnows)
By William Estes and Bruce Gebhardt
reprinted from American Currents, March-June 1988
Earlier Installments of this series appeared in the Oct 86, Mar-Apr 87, and Jan 88 issues.



Satinfin Shiner (Notropis analostanus) and Spotfin Shiner (Notropis spilopterus)

Since these two species are said by ichthyologists to be virtually indistinguishable in the field while alive, they are treated together here. Vague methods of distinguishing will be suggested.

Both species are members of the subgenus Cyprinella. They have usual Cyprinella attributes; streamlined shape; great speed and swimming ability; prominent diamond-shaped scales. They can also be identified by feel: it's as though they were made of metal. Males of the two species have several things particularly in common during breeding season: whitish or yellowish fins, pearlescent bodies, and rough tubercles on the snout. Females axe similar to each other, lacking high color.

The anal-fin ray count differs--satinfin 9, spotfin 8. C.L. Smith in Inland Fishes of New York State says the spotfin has 37-39 lateral-line scales, the satinfin 35-37. The most definite distinction Smith asserts, which the authors have not yet tested, is that satinfins have pigment scattered throughout the dorsal-fin membranes, while in the spotfins it is confined to the black dashes between posterior dorsal rays.

The authors of this summary have their own method of telling the species apart--blind instinct. But between them they usually agree, so there might be something to their guesswork. First, a major habitat clue: adult spotfins are more likely to inhabit small creeks, such as Kelly Run, Lancaster County, Pa.; adult satinfins, large ones. The habitat distinction is not 100-percent, however. Second, we have found satinfins only in the eastern part of this area--adjacent to the Delaware drainage, where we have never found spotfins (though both species are said to be there, too).

Now their looks: First, It appears that most fresh-caught spotfins are slightly trimmer than satinfins, possibly because they sometimes occur in great density; after a while in aquaria, spotfins fatten and the distinction blurs. Second, one is more conscious of greenish overtones to the bodily iridescence of spotfins, yellowish with satinfins. Both may develop yellowish fins. Aside from looks, in aquaria one author (BG) has found satinfins (males) slightly more assertive than spotfins.

In breeding time, the male satinfin's beauty magnetizes--especially that dorsal fin with its silver-white iridescence, lit kaleidoscopically with iridescent hues--blue, blue-green, green, gold, bronze. Is there another fish in the world with this type and brilliance of color? The other fins are silvery-white at their tips. The diamond-scaled pearl-gray body also flashes other colors.

A fantastic display is afforded by putting some male satinfins in an aquarium with a dark background, then having them only dimly lit by distant room light behind the viewer. He sees only the brilliant iridescent fins slashing the black, tracing incredible acrobatics. Satinfins and spotfins are two of the very best swimmers among native fishes. They make impossible moves at high speed, males sometimes chasing each other in tight circles, inseparable by human vision.

Frankly, we're not sure if we've ever seen a spotfin male in prime breeding condition. There have been occasional males with yellow-white fins which were quite attractive, but we've never seen any as spectacular as satinfins. The authors would be interested in reading good descriptions of breeding colors of male spotfins.

Satinfins occur usually above the Fall Line from upper New York State to North Carolina. Spotfins are found over a much more extensive mideast/midwest range. One of the authors (BG) has had several occasions to observe satinfins in nature during spawning season (May-June +) in the Wissahickon Creek, Philadelphia (Delaware drainage). John Eccleston and John Clairmont have also witnessed this. Satinfins dominate the shallows, males everywhere taking up stations, sortieing from them to attract females. Their fin displays are something to behold, as the silver-white is visible at some distance. Peak condition is attained in late May in the Wissahickon, which is at about the same latitude as the Lower Susquehanna in Pennsylvania.

It's compulsory to have a couple pairs of these fish in aquaria during breeding season despite the minor inconveniences--i.e., males unmercifully pursue any fish that can't swim out of the way; mighty few can. That tendency is not restricted to breeding season, though it becomes more intense then. After a while, in fact, it may become wearing to watch them!

There's no problem feeding these fish, They need lots of fuel to maintain their high-energy life-style, One doesn't buy a Ferrari for fuel economy, does one? They love flake food, freeze-dried food, live food, frozen food--you serve it, they'll eat it. At the start of aquarium life, they need lots of oxygen. They may be hard to transport home for that reason, so ice or some means of cooling is advisable. They soon adjust to reduced oxygen, however.

--BG

=============================
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/19/21 05:32 PM
Canyoncreek,
Interesting information. One thing I did notice that I did not mention when separating 4 for the forage pond and 4 for the small stream is the absence of color on the top of the back by the dorsal fin on a couple of fish. “Females axe similar to each other, lacking high color.” I assumed these were females and I sorted accordingly. Another article I found talks about the lack of success breeding Spotfin shiners indoors and how outdoor ponds provided greater than 95% success. https://www.uwsp.edu/cols-ap/nadf/P...%20Spotfin%20Shiner-%20Fischer%20PPT.pdf
Thanks for posting the article!
Posted By: jpsdad Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/19/21 08:15 PM
CC & Heppy, members of the genus Cyprinella are collectively known as the "Satinfin Shiners". I guess the Satinfin serves as the type of the genus. The ones which can flourish in stillwaters are the most interesting. The 4 below are probably the best prospects each within the boundaries of their respective natural ranges. The links will take a person to a profile that also includes a range map. These four cover the majority of the real estate east of the Rockies.


Satinfin Shiner
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=516

Spotfin Shiner
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?SpeciesID=520

Red Shiner
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=518

Blacktail
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=521
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/19/21 08:57 PM
jpsdad,
I had previously called Jones Fish to see if I could buy some Satinfin shiners or Spotfin shiners and he told me that only the Satinfin shiner was native to my location. Mark also did not have a source for Satinfin shiners. I feel pretty good knowing now that I have not introduced a non-native species to the watershed even as much as I wanted something that spawned in the pond. However, I need to qualify my statement by saying that my pond is a flow through pond and many species native to the stream have pulled off a spawn because there is always flowing water. Thanks for the information!
Posted By: jpsdad Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/20/21 04:20 AM
You've set a great example on sourcing natives for your pond. It's good for your local wildlife and the extra bonus is they are adapted to your locale and should thrive.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/20/21 04:23 PM
Thanks jpsdad but I have to give all the credit to Bill Codys’ knowledge and help getting me started on the correct path.
I just want to stop by and say thank you for this post. Learned a lot more tonight
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/21/21 04:37 AM
Now I know I have a minimum of 72 hours in the transport cooler with finer shiner we headed back to the dock to see how things were going. I first checked the traps and found both empty with no residual food left in either trap. Strikeout on 2 minnow traps with the idea to use a mesh bag to hold the fish food in each trap closer to shore when I return in July. Next I checked the spawning device set 2-3 inches off the bottom of the lake in about 4 feet of water. Sure enough there were eggs deposited inside the spaces, more so in the ones that were closer together(3mm). I had no idea the eggs were so small. At first glance it looked like specks of dirt attached to the cd. Upon further examination I could see movement from inside the egg. The spawning device was then placed in a small cooler with lake water on the dock. My son went to pull up the second spawning device that was located in the shallow water closer to shore. As he took it out of the water he said dad aren’t there supposed to be more cds than the half dozen or so that remained on the threaded eye bolt. Sure enough the nut, washer, milk top spacers and another 7-8 cds were gone. Seeing this I proceeded to get in the lake with my clothes on and managed to recover the ones missing. No such luck with the nut, washer or spacers(they float) amongst the rip rap. I didn’t have a magnet on hand like I do at the pond to try and find the nut and washer. Oh well, on to examine the number of eggs on the deconstructed spawning device and put it into the small cooler. I found the spawning device set more shallow contained a greater number of eggs even fallen apart as Bill previously thought would happen. There is a lot of boat traffic on this area of the lake. The wake of the waves hitting the shore with the movement of the spawning device hitting a dock piling is what I assume caused it to come apart. Lastly we cast netted 2 adult Satinfin shiners and took them and the spawning devices to the transport cooler. It was quite a way to end Fathers Day after getting together with family for linner. I hope all of you who were able to get together with your Father or family had as great a time as I did today.
Posted By: jpsdad Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/21/21 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by Heppy
Thanks jpsdad but I have to give all the credit to Bill Codys’ knowledge and help getting me started on the correct path.

Bill deserves credit for his great tutorship. After receiving it, however, you still must choose to follow it. I think that deserves credit too. Be cause you followed his good lead, you are now on the path of helping others do the same and that can make a difference.
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/22/21 02:53 AM
A dab of green or blue loctite when you put the nut on the threads will hold it in place. Just need to let dry for a day before putting in water. Don't use Red - you will have to heat it up to remove it.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/22/21 10:15 AM
Thanks for the tip esshup. I had only thought of a lock nut until now.
A double nut on the bottom should also work well to hold the device together. Maybe try it both ways? When using just one nut make sure it is threaded tightly onto the eyebolt. It is great the satinfins found and used the spawning device. Undoubtedly more devices set shallow will capture lots of eggs during the next several weeks.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/22/21 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
A double nut on the bottom should also work well to hold the device together. Maybe try it both ways? When using just one nut make sure it is threaded tightly onto the eyebolt. It is great the satinfins found and used the spawning device. Undoubtedly more devices set shallow will capture lots of eggs during the next several weeks.

Thanks again Bill!
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/23/21 04:04 AM
I concur with Bill on the double nut, that works too!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/23/21 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by esshup
I concur with Bill on the double nut, that works too!
Appreciate the help esshup!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/05/21 12:11 AM
Quick question. My Texas Hunter Feeder is not working at the time the timer is set. The feeder will go off when running a test run. Do I need a new timer? Thanks for any help!
I would call Texas Hunter and see what help they can provide. They might give you a discount on a new timer?

How is it going for the egg collection of satinfin and eggs?
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/05/21 12:57 PM
Thanks Bill! I’ve been away on family vacation since 6/25 and will resume collecting this week.
While you were on vacation your devices if in the water should have collected lots of eggs.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/07/21 01:14 AM
For anyone interested I called Texas Hunter today. They said it was definitely a battery issue. It is only holding enough charge to do a test run. Bottom line is to put in a new 12 volt battery and the problem will be solved.
Ck battery with voltmeter plugged in to battery on solar charger and not plugged in to see difference. Timer should tell you if battery is charging and if good. Try that first
Posted By: esshup Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/07/21 10:42 PM
Also, if the battery charge is very low it won't get topped back up with the solar charger, you will have to use a regular battery charger, then keep it topped up with the solar charger.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/07/21 11:40 PM
Thanks for the tips Pat and Esshup but I had already switched out the battery before I read your posts. Replaced the battery with one from TS for $20 and now it is working as expected. I adjusted the timer to 14 seconds in the morning and evening. The fish cleaned it up in less than 10 minutes. This is by far the most aggressive feeding I have seen in my pond since it was built almost 2 years ago.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/08/21 02:20 AM
As I am waiting to check the spawning devices at the farm tomorrow my mind wanders. I am currently thinking of adding a 20x32 foot villa pavilion centered at the pond dock. Ideally it will be a timber frame design (open ceiling) with an enclosed room 8x20 for a bathroom, kayak storage, etc with double doors on the interior. I’m also thinking of an outdoor shower and wooden floor to let the excess water drain towards the emergency spillway outside the stamped concrete slab with footers on the backside of the pavilion. Does anyone have pictures of a pavilion at a pond/lake to share for additional ideas? Thanks!

Example: https://imgur.com/a/pjtzbFs
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/09/21 04:33 AM
Checked the two spawning devices in the stream and didn’t see any eggs. The forage pond has become very turbid and I assume an explosion of crawfish has happened. Before leaving the farm I tossed in the 1/2 inch Z trap to check when I return later this weekend. I removed one spawning device and took it to the lake where I located the original Satinfin shiners. We didn’t see any adults off the dock this evening over two hours but saw some juveniles that were too small for the cast net. Hung the spawning device in 2-3 foot of water about 4-6 inches off the bottom. Will check for eggs in 5-7 days.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 07/26/21 06:11 PM
I haven’t posted any updates on the Satinfin shiners or spawning devices because there has been nothing to report. It seems that in my neck of the woods the Satinfin spawn until the end of June. There were a few shiners spotted at the lake the last couple of times but the spawning devices were eggless. I’m hoping the adult shiners (about 20 total) will provide a sustainable population in the future. In 2022 we will resume the adult/spawning devices in the April-May timeframe. Next on the agenda is to catch threadfin shad and 25-35 SMB this fall to put in the big pond.
In other news, the vegetation in the big pond has been great for the forage fish. The sheer numbers of different minnows around the shoreline and dock is unbelievable. We removed 63 more BG this weekend by angling/trapping/cast net. I have been managing the cattails by pulling them out by the base and getting a lot of root. One odd thing did happen last weekend. In my forage pond the water had turned muddy. We put a minnow trap in to catch crayfish that I figured were the cause. I pulled approximately 35 crayfish out in the first trap set in about 3 foot of water. Next we put 4 traps in 5-8 foot of water. When we pulled them there were just a few crayfish and everything else including the tadpoles were dead. I’m assuming that a thermocline has set up and not enough dissolved oxygen was available to keep the fish alive. Am I correct in this assumption?
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 08/04/21 08:23 PM
I’ve been doing some reading on alewives. Is there any reason not to use them in ponds/lakes that typically experience a winter kill with threadfin shad or tilapia?

Edit: A bit more reading and I understand why it might not be the best idea.

http://www.fao.org/3/ae997b/AE997B02.htm
At a certain size bullfrog tadpoles have to surface for air. I have caught a bunch of dead ones before and could see others surfacing to gulp air
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 08/04/21 10:54 PM
Correct Pat but the bullfrog tadpoles of the same size in all traps set and pulled at the same time along with all minnows in the traps were dead with the exception of the trap set shallow. This is why I assume there is a thermocline with no dissolved oxygen available that killed everything except the crayfish. Is there any other possible explanation?
I’ve never seen tadpoles in that deep of water.... learn something everyday
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 08/04/21 11:15 PM
Pat, I assume that they were swimming down to the bait got in the traps and could not receive enough oxygen from the water. Minnows, tadpoles and crayfish were all alive in the shallow trap.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 08/10/21 02:13 AM
This past weekend my oldest son found a very effective way to remove many unwanted BG in addition to trapping and using a worm on a small hook with a spinning rod. First he used a pistol style kids crossbow after dark and removed 21. The next evening he took his fly rod with a nymph caught and removed 36 BG in an hour before dark. I put the pond thermometer in the water for readings of 82 degrees at the surface and 72 degrees in 8’ of depth. The BCP pulled off a spawn this year from the 250 3-5 inch stocked November 2020. YP also spawned this spring and are about 4-5 inches long at this point. I thinned more cattails, tested 5 different stains on the cabin, sprayed down about 5 acres of pasture to get upcoming fall food plots planted, weedeater around cabin, feeder, shooting bench and spent a lot of time in the water. Lots of fun had by all!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 08/28/21 03:05 AM
Over the last 7 days I have disced, planted 5 acres of food plots, weedeated around the pond, dock, fish feeder, boat ramp, fruit trees and cabin. Bush hogged around the cabin, barn, shooting bench and pond. Fish continue to hammer the 10 second of Optimal Bass/Junior mix. Installed a a new 25x25 fire pit by the pond. The 20x32 pavilion will be complete within 60 days. Need rain in a big way for the food plots. There is always something to do! I plan on getting white/ladino clover planted around the food plots within the next 3 weeks. Lime and fertilize accordingly. Dove season opener is next weekend! My roommate from college and his son will be here. I’m looking forward to next weekend and the rest of the year! The best gift I can give any of you is
https://vladimirzelenkomd.com/
Live your life. I hope it is treating all of you well!
That was a darn good week of work Heppy.

Hopefully, next week will be a darn good week of play!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 08/29/21 03:00 AM
FishinRod,
Not to mention temps were in the mid nineties most of the time. All work and no play makes Heppy a dull boy! (The Shining) reference with Jack Nicholson if anyone remembers. Starting Friday night the fun begins!
Tip: Wait for cooler weather to dig out fire pit, shovel gravel and carry boulders if anyone is considering building a fire pit of their own. You can thank me later!
Heepy you have any pictures you can share with us of your addition. I'm always looking for new ideas i can steal. Sounds like uv been a busy bee 4 sure.
This is what I made a fire pit out of at the pond. repurposing some old track loader pads that were used to help build the pond originally.
The grill apparatus is partially stainless steel and holds a Weber 22.5 inch grill grate which is readily available for replacement or can be transferred to or from the regular grill and I made it where it can be raised or lowered over the fire with the chain.

Attached File
fire pit.jpg  (136 downloads)
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 08/29/21 11:41 PM
Rstringer,
Here are a couple pictures of the fire pit before I did the weedeating and bush hogging. The exterior of the pit is 6 feet across. There is a metal and pvc pipe for the drain so that the fire pit doesn’t hold water. I’m looking to add something similar to gehajake as a cooking surface that swings out of the way for campfires or bonfires.

https://imgur.com/a/Z10TqlP

I also ran across an idea for firewood storage near the fire pit.

https://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/make-and-decorate/crafts/how-to-build-an-outdoor-firewood-shed

Does anyone have other ideas or things you have done to store your wood?
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/07/21 04:32 AM
Well we christened the almost complete fire pit with one of my college roommates and fraternity brother of 30 years ago and set the cowboy cooking bar in place. I plan on adding a swinging grill, griddle, hanging a Dutch oven and another two foot piece of black pipe to screw in to the right hand side of the top tee to hang cooking utensils. I will also be adding a stand alone swing and some Adirondack chairs for seating. Great weekend working the dogs with the dove shoot!

https://imgur.com/a/Bz7gYjP
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 09/26/21 05:41 AM
I’m thinking of adding RBT next month. The pond is going into its third year. Other than adding threadfin shad later this fall and 25-35 larger SMB, no other fingerling fish will be added. Is it a good idea to go ahead and add them? If so how many per acre and what size?
Thanks!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 10/18/21 09:28 PM
Added 100 RBT 10-12” and 50 Brook Trout 5-6” to the stream and the big pond today. Picked up 2 bags of Ziegler Finfish G 42-16 floating 40ppm pink 5mm (3/16”) fish food for $45/bag. Each bag is 44lbs.
Heppy, are the trout a seasonal addition, or do you think they will survive the summer? I add RBT in early December and they last until late May/early June here. So much fun, they grow fast & fight like crazy!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 10/19/21 03:30 PM
anthropic,
This is my first shot at trout so I’m not sure at this point. The pond is fed by multiple springs so it is possible they will make it through next summer. I guess I will just have to wait until then to find out. The available brook trout were a pleasant surprise!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 10/19/21 03:36 PM
Attention Everyone!
I found a website www.historicaerials.com/viewer where you can plug in your property address and look back in time at how your property was used. There are aerial pictures from as far back as 1948 on mine. It’s very interesting to see how the property has changed over time. Check it out!
Posted By: Augie Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 10/19/21 04:39 PM
Your local tax assessor's web site may also be a good source for aerial photos.

I was able to find images of my property going back to 1956.
Heppy thanks for sharing that. Never seen my place in old photos.
I've seen many a man turned by brook trout. In fact, they have a saying where brook trout are native. "Once you go Brookie, you never go back!!" Good luck
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 10/21/21 05:18 AM
Thanks all! I thought you might enjoy that link. wbuffetjr, brookies are so good that I named my daughter Brooke! Then again, I named my first born son after a bow company back in the day. I guess you can tell my heart has always been in the outdoors! Give God all the praise and glory, enjoy the little time we have in His outdoors. Have fun y’all while we are all trying to figure it out.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 10/31/21 02:40 AM
20x32’ concrete pad for the pavilion is now poured. Stubbed out for a full bath and electric.
For reference the walkway is 5x30 and the dock is 16x24.
https://imgur.com/a/pepcIB4
very nice
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/13/22 09:45 PM
Added about 2000 threadfin shad the first week of March. We have taken 8 trout out pan fried with Big Spring Mill Seasoned Flour. Talk about delicious! Pavilion build should be finished by the end of the month as long as the weather cooperates.

https://imgur.com/a/lvEWhsk
Man that’s nice!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/17/22 02:27 PM
Some of the YP pics kids caught one afternoon last week. I didn’t have a tape or scale with me at the time.

https://imgur.com/a/u0JmUjD
Posted By: Sunil Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/17/22 02:52 PM
Those Yellow Perch are awesome, Happy!!!
Posted By: ewest Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/17/22 05:48 PM
Nice YP pics.
Heppy - You are doing something correctly for growing yellow perch in Virginia. Nice fish. You seeing any egg ribbons yet? As far south as you are you may have had egg ribbons 7 to 10 days ago. How much had the trout grown since October 18.?? You might be able to get another 2"+ on their size before the water gets too warm. Keep feeding them daily for best growth.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 03/18/22 01:36 AM
Bill I haven’t seen any YP ribbons yet. Last year the first ribbons I saw were on 3/29. I’m heading back down next week to continue looking. The trout have been feeding 2 seconds in the am and pm. I haven’t measured/weighed them but they look to be 2-3lbs with really pink flesh. Pictures from last week are in the link below for reference.

https://imgur.com/a/HsXh5lt

Edit: Just thought I should add that I feed a mix of Optimal Bass/Jr. April-October and Ziegler Finfish G 42-16 floating 40ppm pink 5mm (3/16”) fish food November-March.
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/13/22 03:06 AM
Found first YP eggs in the fish trap with one female and 9 males yesterday 4/11. I’m sure there were more eggs in the pond but lots of rain caused turbidity issues for the past 2 weeks. Hopefully some were successful. Optimal Jr in the TH feeder for 3 seconds in the am and pm. All sorts of fish are feeding like piranhas. The 20x32 pavilion will be ready for its 3rd coat of mud and sanding in the bar/storage area and full bath by this weekend. Then will come priming and painting the interior of both rooms. After that the septic system will be installed. As of now I’m going to use Sashco transformation stain with a light color on the exposed rafters, and 1x4s underneath the roof and the darker color for the facia boards, 6x6 posts and T-111. I’m in the process of grading around the pavilion to allow water from the metal roof with no gutters to land on brown Tennesse river rock with 8oz fabric underneath to channel water towards the E spillway. Very pleased with how it’s turning out!
congrats Heppy!! neat to see the YP ribbons and where they end up. I had it once too that given a choice the YP would go into a structure (in my case the 6" round hole of a china made basket style minnow trap) It seemed they were happy to be become a 'cavity spawner' at that moment.

I don't know what all the white spots are in my floating/degrading YP eggs but there are a lot. Did you note white spots in each egg space too?
Posted By: Snipe Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 04/14/22 07:18 PM
White spots are UN fertilized eggs.. there will always be some.
And those are some nice looking perch! looks like 3 females and possibly 2 larger males. Nice!!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/11/22 03:08 AM
Confirmed! The threadfin shad have survived and reproduced. Trout are still feeding running 10 seconds in the am and pm. Pavilion is complete with the exception of the septic system.
Posted By: ewest Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/11/22 04:05 PM
? pictures. Sounds like great results!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/12/22 02:36 PM
https://imgur.com/a/V9FTO4B
Great looking pavilion, Heppy.

Let the family fun times begin!
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/14/22 02:58 AM
I’m so pleased with my purchase of the Deep Glow green underwear fish light. It’s great for asthestics and allowed me to confirm the threadfin population/reproduction. Fish should get more comfortable around it the longer it is permanently mounted with the vertical bracket 4’ down running on a dusk to dawn timer. Can’t go wrong with this choice.

https://imgur.com/a/mrVeI0Y

https://imgur.com/a/fcqUWP6
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/14/22 03:28 AM
We also built a firewood storage from pallets and tin for the roof.

https://imgur.com/a/13k6eRQ
Happy I love the look of your place. Next week we r getting something similar to yours built. Can ya tell us more about your light (solar).
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 05/14/22 04:34 PM
I’m not sure about solar. Ours is hardwired. Here’s the website.
https://www.deepglow.com/
Posted By: Heppy Re: Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking - 06/06/22 04:16 AM
I caught the first Brook Trout the other day from the 50 that were stocked last Fall. It’s pretty amazing the difference in the amount of gain between them and the RBT. According to the hatchery both were started at the same time. The BT was about 6” when stocked and the RBT were 10-12”. Now the BT are 12” and the RBT are well over 3lbs with some pressing 5lbs. Both were fed the same amount at the hatchery yet from increased growth I will only be stocking RBT each fall. The BT have a max temp of 65 degrees and the RBT at 70 degrees. Both are feeding voraciously and still seem to be doing great. Like I mentioned before this is a test to see how long they will last in the big spring filled pond. By August/September I should know whether they could be a year round fish. Not getting my hopes too high just yet.
I thought, probably mistakenly, that RBT are more heat tolerant than BT. But my experience is similar to yours, in that RBT take to feed aggressively & grow very fast. Hope they last the summer for you!
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