We have 3 existing ponds with very few existing fish. Sparse small bluegill currently exist in the ponds. I have a 3 yr old son who is the motivation to stock these ponds to provide fun sport fishing for him. The 3 ponds are 1 acre (12-15ft deep), 1/2 acre(12-15ft deep), and 1/4 acre(8ft deep max).

1 acre pond
Considering main fish managed for would be hybrid striped bass or white bass. What would be proper forage fish for HSB?

1/2 acre pond
Main fish managed for would be trophy bluegill. Thinking hybrid bluegill pellet fed. What would be proper additional forage for regular bluegill or hybrid bluegill of we choose not to pellet feed?

1/4 acre pond
not sure as it is so shallow. maybe catfish?

Throw out any additional options you would like. Im open to anything as sport fishing fun is really the only goal here.

Should forage be stocked now, or wait until spring?

Could walleye be an option in any of these ponds?

Hi Neighbor! Welcome to Pond Boss. How about some photos? You can't be very far from our place. If you click the link below in my signature you can see our farm pond fish management story.

Are these old ponds? Did they go dry a few years back? Strange to not have bass in any of them. Add some photos when you have the chance.

Other options for stocking:

What do you think about put & take trout for the winter in one of them?

You could use the 1/4 ac pond as a forage pond to grow out fathead minnows, golden shiners, etc.

Yellow perch and smallmouth bass are also an option in Missouri.

Redear sunfish eat snails and thus reduce grubs.

Hey neighbor! Very cool management story you have. Looks like a fun pond to fish! The farm was purchased a year ago, not sure on the ponds ages but they appear relatively old, and I don't see any signs of them going dry at any point. There is plenty of drainage to them. The farm location with these three ponds is located up near mark twain lake so we are not there that often (summer weekend getaways) I have only had the opportunity to fish them for 8 hrs or so. I have fished them with worms, crickets, rooster tails, rattle traps. The fishing is extremely slow, and no signs of anything but small blue gill. But, yes I agree, it seems strange to have not caught at least 1 bass.

I would say the trout options isn't too appealing. But, I like the yellow perch, and smallmouth bass option.

We are open to different options. With the only real solid decision being a fun bluegill pond for my boy in the 1/2 acre pond.

The 1 acre pond is really anything goes, but I know I love the fight of a HSB. Other than that, what would be nice to stock in this 1 acre pond along with them?
FHM
YP
BG? what type?
Golden shiners?
Crawfish?
RES?
Will white bass survive or reproduce?
Walleye?

Open to setting up automatic feeders or automatic pond aeration if necessary

Welcome! Personally I'd stay away from white bass. I doubt they would breed in a pond but if they did it wouldn't be good as they could overpopulate easily.

In the 1 acre pond you could get away with a cool water stocking. SMB/WE/YP/HSB with RES for snails and GSH and FHM for forage.

If in the 1/2 acre pond you want trophy BG I would stock purebred BG. HBG don't get as big and the offspring is undesirable. I'd say stock BG/LMB with RES for snails and FHM for forage. An automatic feeder wouldn't be a bad idea on this pond to increase BG growth rates. To manage for big gills keep bass small and numerous (fun to catch) which will decrease BG numbers therefore giving individuals more to eat. This would only be necessary if you don't feed the pond.

As far as the 1/4 acre, use it to raise forage. Alternatively stock CC and/or HBG and set up an automatic feeder. CC would be fine alone but I think both together would be the best idea. Throw a couple RES in there too to clean up the snails.

Also if you can, set up aeration on all ponds.
Not an expert just my opinion.

It's a little over a mile away, but I can see the dam at Mark Twain from across the road. I bought a boat thinking I'd be over at Mark Twain a lot, but since we built the pond, we haven't used the boat..
I stocked YP, RES, SMB, and HSB after stocking the FHM. We are having a blast catching and releasing the SMB. And eating a lot of YP. I also added some HBG from the guy at 19 & 54. (I also bought FHM from him.) It's a bit different stocking than a lot of Missouri ponds, and has worked well for us. Granted, I haven't seen a single HSB, but I hope to one of these days. The YP are our go to fish for grandkids. They are very tasty and easy to clean. We swim in the pond a lot, and found the HBG to be biters, so we aren't going to add any more, and don't release any. I do keep a feeder going during the summer, but have it set fairly low. Two bags of feed last three months.
We've found the folks in Ralls county to be extremely friendly. Except for the lady that approves septic systems,, but that's another story. Lots of big deer around. Gearing up for that now. Welcome to the forum. I've received tons of help from the experts here.
If you want to sample a YP, let me know.
Jeff

If you're into HSB, aeration, and pellets, you're going to have a blast catching those things! With a ladder stocking plan and that combo you'll grow some tacklebusters in no time.

The YP, RES, SMB, and HSB sounds like a great combo. Would regular bluegill be a good addition to this combo for additional forage? Any recommended forage other than gizzard shad and FHM? Crayfish? What stocking rates would you recommend for this combination? What will likely be the necessary management needs to maintain a healthy population with this combo?

FWIW I Like Pond Dragon's suggestion.

"In the 1 acre pond you could get away with a cool water stocking. SMB/WE/YP/HSB with RES for snails and GSH and FHM for forage. "

IMO Golden Shiners (GSH) would be a much better choice for forage for SMB, WE and HSB than Gizzard Shad (GSD). IMO GSD should only be stocked in larger BOWs that have large mouthgap predators like LMB and TM. I would leave out BG but think HBG would probably be ok if you really want them.

Good luck with the project. Please keep us up to date as your proceed!

Bill D.

You need a real expert to weigh in here. You may also need to nuke all the bluegill if this is going to work. Making it all work in a 1 ac pond might be also be hard.

And absolutely NO GIZZARD SHAD. Golden shiners, yes, GShad, no. Have you ever met a SMB that could eat this?

1 acre pond
YP
RES
SMB
HSB
WE? What will be the effect of the presence or absence of WE?

Golden shiners and fatheads for forage

Would any other forage be benificial to add? crayfish? shrimp?

I know YP, RES, and SMB will reproduce

HSB obviously will not

Will WE reproduce?

What can I expect to be management succession as this pond ages? What are the likely management scenarios to maintain a healthy population?

Would you recommend pellet feeding in this pond?

Do you believe aeration would be necessary?

1/2 acre pond

Sounds like standard bluegill and LMB is the way to go. Fathead minnows as forage. Any other forage options that could be added?

What would be the difference in outcome short term and long term of pellet feeding?

1/4 acre pond.

Im thinking CC. Or forage pond

If we go with CC in the 1/4 acre pond, we can dig another small pond for a forage pond. How large and deep does a pond need to be to grow forage? we have a small tractor with a front loader.

Thank you for the advice. And, looks like you created a great pond! Thank you for the offer on trying the yellow perch. I may have to take you up on it. Given that we may stock similarly to your pond, I would love to check it out.

FWIW....

IMO WE would be a great addition and are a great bonus catch. They don't reproduce in ponds so you would need to ladder stock them (add small ones from time to time) as you harvest the larger ones. I have WE in my pond and we are now catching 19 to 20 inch fish from our 2015 spring stocking of 6 inchers. Our pond has WE, YP, SMB, PS, BG, HBG, LMB, and a few CC. I'm not recommending this mix including LMB and BG, as it goes against traditional thinking, but it at least seems to be working for us in our little pond so far with careful management.

Do keep in mind that you will need to harvest fish to have a healthy pond.

IMO Crayfish are great forage for these species and are a great addition (I have Papershells). Keep in mind the crays need habitat like rock piles, slabs of broken concrete, etc.

Just let me know. I'm not up there every weekend, but I'll be up, there a bit between now and getting my deer.

Send me a PM if you'd like to try a YP..

Thx

Setter,

Send him a private message. Not a good idea to put your number up.

1 acre pond.
Aeration should not be necessary but would protect from fish kills and increase biomass.
As far as other forage, IMO waste of money. It wouldn't be a complete waste but I think that money could be spent elsewhere. FHM will keep the predators occupied for a year and the GSH should increase growth rates all around. If do you want another, papershell crayfish would be the way to go.
Feeding optional IMO, will help (mainly YP) but not necessary.

1/2 acre pond
Keep the forage simple with FHM to keep BG recruitment down and available biomass up. Because you are focused on BG growth I would leave other forage out. Feeding would be a good idea, expect fast growth rates and more bigger fish. Not feeding is fine but might require more management.

1/4 acre pond
IMO CC is a good idea. Put a few in with an auto feeder. For a forage pond a small 1/8-1/16 acre puddle that's a few feet deep should work for raising FHM. Use those as forage for the 1 acre pond, the perch will thank you.

Not an expert just my opinion.

Thanks for posting this I'm having a lot of fun with your thread.

Got it. I tried to at least make it hard to copy and paste. Ha!

Ahem, Setter, delete your number from the post. Don't want that floating around the internet

Changed. whew..

Stocking rates and timing?

1 acre pond
YP
WE
SMB
HSB
FHM
GSH
Paper shells
Ghost shrimp?

1/2 acre
BG
LMB
FHM

I'm not a pro but I'm struggling with this statement. In the absence of predators, I would expect you to say you have an abundance of small BG, not "sparse." Are you sure this is an accurate assessment of the pond populations? Have you tested your water?

You're listing species combos that could be right for a NEW pond with nothing in it. Are you going to drain and rotenone to start over?

I can't be certain that what I have managed to catch is an accurate representation. But, I know the ponds have not been fished hard in a long time. I know that after hours of fishing with crickets, worms, and bass tackle I have only managed to catch a few small bluegill. Or perhaps some variation of bluegill. How big of an issue would it be to stock the one acre pond if it has a decent existing bluegill population? Can a blue gill population be eradicated Through fishing, and predation from SMB, HSB, and walleye?

It would not be easy. IMO rotenone it and start with a blank slate. You could drain and seine it to see what's in there but I would still rotenone it. Never make yourself do more work, BG are going to be very difficult to eradicate.

I recommended testing your water because it seems strange the pond is not full of stunted "BG" if there are no predators. Even a simple test using a swimming pool test kit for PH and alkalinity may be enlightening if you have a water quality issue. If you get a chance, you might also post a pic or two of your "BG" so the pros can give you a positive ID.

Ok. I suppose starting with a water quality test kit, and some pics of existing fish will help. I will try and do that this weekend.

Any issues with going the rotenone route? Is timing important? Will it give you a garaunteed blank slate at correct dosage and timing? Are there human health risks consuming future fish produced in the pond.

You really need an expert to weigh in on this thread. See if you can get Bill Cody, Rainman, or Esshup's attention.

Rainman is based in the STL area and is a great guy to talk to over the phone, too.

Read through this question & answer list about rotenone use from the Oregon Fisheries & wildlife department. If you have more questions bring them back here and we will try to get you good reliable answers.
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/local_fisheries/diamond_lake/FAQs.asp

great Bill, Thank you. It seems to me that relatively soon would be good timing for a rotenone treatment. My reasoning is this, let me know if you think it is sound reasoning.
-Rotenone is not as effective on fish eggs.
-I would assume that right now bluegill and sunfish spawns are not taking place.
-meaning no rotenone resistant fish eggs are sitting waiting to weather the rotenone storm and hatch
-meaning if rotenone was applied right now, it would kill all existing fish, leaving a blank slate and no hidden surviving fish eggs to pop up as a problem.

What kind of cost am I looking at to treat each pond?

Would pumping them down make a difference?

How about pumping them all down, then treating with a much decreased amount of rotenone in the remaining puddle that could not be pumped?

As far as I know rotenone does not kill fish eggs. September in Missouri should be the last spawning of sunfishes and most all pond type fish. Few fish spawn in fall at less than 62F.
Most economical way to do rotenone is draw down (pumping) the water of the pond to allow for less chemical needed. Drawn down also dewaters muskrat and rodent holes/dens to force fish from shoreline cavity hiding places where rotenone may not achieve adequate penetration or concentrations. If the ponds are not aerated or mechanically mixed, drawdown helps insure bottom water penetration of the rotenone into the deep areas (now only 3-6ft deep) which will not happen well when the pond is thermally stratified.

The smaller the water volume to be treated the less the cost and better the results. Some fish species require a higher dose to be killed. Many fish can be killed with 1gallon per 1 million gal of water while bullheads, carp, gar, GSF and a few others require 3 gal/million gallon. Turbid water also requires a higher dose of rotenone.

Cost will largely be determined by labor cost (time) and chemical. Chemical wholesale is around $100/gal +-$20. Expect upto double for retail and then labor or applicator profit.

Seems to me it might be better to pump it down to a puddle and treat with hydrated lime.

If you pump it down you can see what was in the pond before you kill them all, that's an advantage in my books as long as it is cheap enough to be feasible vs just rotenoneing it.

I don't trust hydrated lime as a fish eradication method. It can work if done exactly correctly. With hydrated lime how long does it take for the water pH to return to conditions where fish will live in it again?

I've found the ph level drops in a few days, up to a week. But I'm also always refilling the pond with well so my waiting period is much shorter as I'm diluting the lime. Easiest to drain as much as possible with siphon so volume is much lower and easier to nuke with lime. I'd even go so far as to seine remaining pools to ensure you have everything. I've limed fisheries 4 times now, learned something new every application. So far so good, but have to be careful and detail oriented.

Hey Shawn:

Lots of good info here - feel free to call me sometime, can cover a lot of ground on a call. I manage many cold water species fisheries and have a trophy sunfish fishery also - which is doing well. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way can help save you a ton of time and money. Happy to help.

@ TJ, I didn't mean to play favorites, sorry

@shawn, you could get a kit but Texas A&M will process your sample for $20 and give you way more info.

http://soiltesting.tamu.edu/files/waterweb1.pdf

I wish the Univ of Mo would do this. I'm in Columbia all the time. It would be nice to drop off a sample.

I sent some to MU but they don't do aquaculture-specific tests so the report was pretty unhelpful.

I'd suggest Hydrated liming over rotenone every time for being sure all is killed. Less expensive and done properly, much better results, IMO.

Shawn, if you still want to go with SMB, HSB, YP, RES and WE, you ill want to add golden shiners, fathead and bluntnose minnows as forage...some spotfin shiners would be nice as well. Avoid BG or HBG, at least until you get good smallie growth (2+ pounds). The cool water species pond will need the proper spawning structures for the SMB and YP.....WE will not spawn, nor will HSB....RES will find places.

I'd make the 1/2 acre pond the BG pond, feeding Optimal pellets, stocked with 150 Pure Northern BG, 125 LMB and 50 RES with the same forage species, though FHM will disappear fast.

The 1/4 acre pond could be for forage, or for other species not wanted in your goal oriented ponds.