I have a 1/2 acre pond in northeast indiana. It will have areas that are 16 ft in depth with it being 10ft deep in areas now. I have stocked GS, FHM, 50 BG and 150 res so far. My question is I would like to go with smallmouth bass for my main predator fish and was wondering how they would do with HSB and how many of each to stock?

I would have preferred that you started this thread before you added BG. For your question of compatibility of HSB & SMB they co-habitate well and usually feed in different habitats when not eating pellets. SMB if pellet trained will grow fast on pellets.

Several members plus myself have experienced SMB with BG. Not a good partnership because smallies have a hard time controlling BG. If you do it you will have to do a lot of manual thinning of the small BG (2"-4") or they will overpopulate and their growth will be slower than normal. HBG with their lower reproduction and recruitment work better with SMB and HSB than BG.

Thanks for the advice. Would you suggest putting the SMB and or HSB in this fall or wait til next year and how many of each? Also should I aerate?

When did you stock your forage species? If it was early this year, and they have had time to spawn, you could add some SMB this fall; you'll be hard pressed to find any in the spring to stock, and you'll want to have them present to control your BG as quickly as possible, once the BG start spawning.

As Bill indicated, you may have a lot of BG thinning to do to prevent BG overpopulation, at least until you have a strong number of smallies to work the BG numbers for you. You'll likely need to concentrate on the BG that make it past smallie forage size, usually in the 4-8" range; this size will really accumulate and prevent best top end growth for your other lepomids. The HSB have pretty small gape size, and won't help much on these larger, midsized BG.

You could consider adding some WE--they'll eventually get to a size where they'll help cull the BG.

Don't be discouraged about adding the BG. A half acre pond can be managed much more effectively than a larger BOW, and there are a heck of a lot worse ways you could be spending your time than fishing for BG. And if you have kids, you can put a "bounty" on the size fish you want to remove.

I stocked the GS and FHM about 2 months ago. Doubt they spawned. Like you said all the fisheries around here said they wouldn't have any smallies after this fall til next fall. Yeah I have kids, so need to keep most of the BG.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of opinions on this, but if it were me, I'd stock a few smallies this fall, perhaps 10-15. If you had pretty good numbers of GSH and FHM, they should make it through the winter, and they'll be ready to go when the BG are spawning in the spring and early summer. Then add more SMB next summer/fall as early as you can get them. I would consider WE as well, especially if you have some pretty steep banks and deep water structure.
You'll likely find that certain of your smallies do quite well on BG and will adapt to BG as primary forage; you can cull those that do not seem to be thriving on this diet. With your kids aggressively targeting the BG that grow out of the preferred smallie range, you should be able to manage quite well.

I'll be watching this thread with interest... Hopefully you'll update as you go and let us know how things go. I stocked my pond 2 years ago in a similar manner as you Mitch only minus the BG. I didn't stock the BG for two reasons, first was the fact that they nibble badly on swimmers when numbers are numerous and stunted. Then also I followed recommendations here to avoid them when stocking SMB. Saying all that I really miss BG in the pond even though we have perch and RES. Stocked 900 RES and haven't caught a single one or even seen them dead or alive in 2 yrs. in spite of targeting them multiple times... The perch are fun to catch and as they continue to grow are getting better and better, but they just aren't the same as fishing for big BG on the beds that I caught when I was a kid.

Our pond is 3 1/2 ac so Im sure that would make the control of the BG even tougher to handle long term. So far there is very little weedy cover in our pond as it is steep banked so I wonder if in this type environment if the SMB and HSB could better control the BG.

Whats your take on this Yolk? Things are really going well so far, the predators are growing nicely and there seems to be quite a bit of forage especially GSH available. But with the lack of cover I wonder just how long the prey can survive as the SMB seem to be hammering them almost nonstop. With this in mind Ive been looking forward trying to make plans so we can continue to keep plenty of food in front of the bass.

Options Ive been pondering are adding BG or digging a decent sized forage pond and raising forage to supplement the large pond.

Jamie, what other forage options do you have in your pond, other than GSH and young YP?



Two years prior to this, RES were caught with relative frequency from my 1 acre pond. They seem to have been taken over by the YP, SMB and WE now. Caught two this year, despite trying pretty hard for them. I'm guessing they're finding other hunting grounds that I haven't figured out how to mimic yet. Thinking I need to have Shorty pay a visit.

Mitch, was it you that called me (Hoosier Pond Pros) from the Ft. Wayne area yesterday about Smallmouth? I'm the one that told you about Dan Laggis.

If you still don't have any success finding SMB, let me know, I might have a line on getting some in the next two weeks, but they will be 5"-7" fish.........

Yes that was me that talked to you. Small world!

Mitch , Since you have stocked BG, return occassionially to this thread and keep us updated about the progress of your BG-SMB combination in your 1/2 ac pond. We need more information about how to manage this fish combo and how the fishery progresses as the years go by. Others that are interested in SMB-BG will find your feedback and evaluations valuable information.

I sure will Bill. My first experience with a pond. But wanted something a little different than what I was used to fishing.

Mitch, there was another South MI PB forum member who wanted to stock SMB this fall but wasn't able to take the required minimum order of 100 from laggis in Gobles, MI and I wasn't ready to split the order with him. I was interested in more like 10-15 not 50. But perhaps he would work out something with you if Laggis still has any.

Sounds to me like you've got a good thing going, if your smallies are growing well, and still have plenty of forage 2 years in, especially something fusiform and perfect for SMB. Hard to say how it'll look in a couple more years, when the SMB have gone through a couple more cycles of growth and recruitment-I've been impressed with how voracious the smallies are, and think you're wise to be thinking about this now. I don't have enough experience with GSH as a primary forage source to have a good answer.

I also have mostly steep banks in a 3 acre pond--even when there was no weed cover, the SMB weren't able to adequately control BG by themselves. For me, the pleasures of catching big BG outweigh the extra work removing and managing them, but require consistent efforts-they can escape control quickly. It is possible that introducing BG to a fully mature, predator rich environment with multiple, plentiful year classes of SMB might allow for adequate predation, but I don't think I'd count on that, and would add BG only if I was fully prepared to deal with the consequences [if you can consider paddling around in a canoe on a warm fall evening targeting 7-8" BG with 2lb test and microjigs to be "consequences"].

I think it is best to target harvest mostlythe female BG to help reduce recruitment of BG. Note male-female BG are often not recognizable until the BG grows to 7.5-8". There are several older posts here describing recognizing male vs female BG. In this link to the PB Archives are lots of discussions of growing big BG and a few posts of how to recognize male vs female BG.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=286856&page=2

Read the thread Bill provided. Here is some of the info on id male vs female BG.


These are from the PB article (series) by Bill , Bruce and Cecil. They are posted on another thread but this is a proper location for them.

Our existing forage base comprises of a dwindling population of FH, GSH,YP,RES,LCS and unfortunately GSF. Also stocked cray fish and they have established quite well. We did stock grass shrimp, but not sure they survived with very little weedy structure. I haven't been able to confirm the LCS have really established either. Have found a couple dead LCS that appeared to have grown quite a bit since releasing them 2 1/2 yrs ago.

The SMB and HSB seem to be controlling the GSF quite well as of now. We first discovered them in early 2016 and have caught a hand full of larger ones. So far the young GSF seem to be getting hammered surprisingly well.

Yolk, I don't consider targeting big BG to be any inconvenience at all. In fact we really like to fish and that is one of the reasons we considered stocking BG. Although 3 1/2 ac is a lot of water to fish. Id probably invite a few friends to help out as well if needed. You have a very similar sized pond, so ill ask how much fishing does it really take to control the BG with SMB and HSB as the only predators?

With the presence of the GSF what would happen if BG were added to the mix?

How would adding BG affect the existence of the unwanted GSF?

JamieE,
I'm curious, did you get picture of your LCS, even the dead ones? How big at stocking and how much did the grow in 2.5 years? How many did you stock? I'm not sure you would catch the LCS easily on hook/line and I only had one of my adult LCS enter a trap once. You might have a population but not have an easy way to sample them.

Jamie, where did you find your crayfish from? I was looking at stocking some. But Jones and andrys don't carry them.

I'm really not sure how much fishing is actually needed--I'm removing every BG between 3-8" I catch, and any larger that don't appear to be completely healthy. I would guess I'm removing 60-75lbs/year, so I would say that would be a minimum number. Our BG down here may be starting spawning earlier and stopping later than yours, so you might not need to remove quite so many; I would say that it is a good sign that your predators seem to be controlling the GSF pretty well.

Have you considered adding HBG as an alternative to BG? Since you've already got GSF, downsides would be negligible IMHO, you'd get some increased production of sunfish for forage, and great fighting, aggressive panfish to complement your fishery [Man, I sure hope Sparky doesn't read this; current political climate has reduced my appetite for hyperbole, even where it may be so richly deserved by various and sundry cyanelloids.]

WRT addition of BG to GSF containing waters, tradition has it that GSF are usually outcompeted and eventually replaced for the most part after the addition of BG. I've experienced this in a couple ponds, but currently have one in which the two seem to be cohabiting very well. I'm really not sure why this is, I mention it only to note that I think it would he somewhat hard to predict how the various sunfishes would mix, and what the results would be. This might be another argument for adding HBG, instead of BG.

Mitch, like Yolk I've been managing BG in a limited gape cool water species fishery for 8 years now. With seining, angling, trapping, cast nets, and dense predator stocking I've managed their population - but it requires constant effort. Some is fun, some is laborious. Unless you are willing to apply those efforts for the rest of the fishery's lifetime, consider other options.

For example: Given your fishery is so young, I'd consider draining, seine, nuke and start over sans the BG. Remove all the GSH, FHM and RES you can, cage them, drain as low as you can and nuke with hydrated lime the remainder of the pond. Refill and restock your caged fish. Per Yolk, another possible companion Lepomis would be HBG, although you could expect some hybridization with the RES - the resulting offspring are really pretty cool and believe still heavily skewed towards males therefore not presenting a population management issue.

BG in a cool water/limited gape species fishery isn't a disaster, it's just a challenge and I encourage all my clients to avoid the scenario at all possible the only exception is infiltration from upstream fisheries during overflow events.

I'm curious as to why HBG aren't an option, or are they? I have a similar stocking plan, but added HBG, so grandkids could always catch something.
I was told by the fish seller, that they wouldn't reproduce, but I now think that was bad information. I've been trying to remove females, but I'm not really all that sure about which is which. Less distinctive or less colorful HBG aren't going back..
I've still got lots of smaller fish along the banks. I pretty sure most of those are FHM. I've added crayfish, and grass/glass shrimp, but I don't think either of them were able to get established.
Catching lots of HBG, and YP. Occasionally catching nice SMB. They are all very healthy. Still haven't caught a HSB, but I see bigger swirls along the banks, and out in the middle of the pond, and small fish jumping out of the water, as if their lives were in danger. (I imagine they are.)
I am a bit concerned that the HBG will evolve into something else, and get too numerous, but so far, things seem to be stable.
Pond is only two yrs old.
Edit: I see the BG are already stocked in the original post. I was going to delete this post, but if anyone has info on HBG recruitment, and management, I would appreciate the help.
Thanks,
Jeff

Canyon, I haven't found any LCS in quite some time. I took pics of the one I found dead and its on my thread. I stocked 7 larger ones in the 4" range and the one I found was pushing 6". I believe I stocked them in April and found the dead fish later that summer or early fall. I'm hopeful they are established, but have no way of knowing for sure.

Mitch I got numerous paper shell crayfish from smith creek in New York.

Think I'll hold of on the BG and give it some time. Sounds like by stocking them things will get fairly complicated. Not sure about adding HBG either as theres no benefit to adding forage for the predators with them, but on the other hand they would be fun to catch.

SetterGuy -for catching HSB- try chicken liver , no weight casted in area you see HSB feeding or when you feed...should do the trick.

So, is the chicken liver floating? Use a bobber? Slow retrieve? Or, just let it sit..

Now I'm thinking that I might even see one of these elusive HSB!

Actually both Yolk and I recommended HBG as additional lepomis species in our posts - they are a good potential companion species in limited gape fisheries.

HBG will reproduce, however offspring (like their parents) are heavily skewed towards males, anywhere from 70-95%+ by most studies depending on sex of parentage. Therefore their population are easier to manage than pure BG.

If you want to verify presence of crayfish population, bait minnow cage with food or meat scraps and place in 1-3' depths. I'd wager within 3-4 days you'll see crays - if not, move traps to new location and repeat. I often don't need to bait cray traps as tadpoles will naturally enter cage and die over time, attracting crays - it's a self baiting system, but your situation may be different.

To survey grass shrimp, take a long handled net with 3/8" mesh or smaller and run along shoreline in 1-3' depths walking along the shore. This time of year they are shallow in warmest water possible. If you have vegetation, they'll be sometimes in 1-2" depths just run the net right through the vegetation. Mine are shallow pond wide even without presence of vegetation this is the best time of year to sample them in my experience.

Certainly can't argue with cautious approach to what sounds like a great situation already.

Adding HBG actually will expand your forage base somewhat, they will spawn, though with much less efficiency than BG. Each successive generation will have more and more characteristics of pure GSF, in my experience. That's what I meant about being able to add them without causing a major perturbation in a pond that already has GSF; your risks are pretty negligible.

Thanks TJ.. I'll give it a try.

No bobber, it will slowly sink ,clear line helps if your water is clear... cast and let it fall slowly, they usually hit it on the fall (hang on, set drag ) . If no luck, let it sit on bottom for a bit and repeat. They will bite on the bottom as well. Low light conditions help but not a deal breaker if not.

+1

I discovered the magic of chicken liver as HSB bait a couple years back when fishing for CC. The liver seldom reaches the bottom before the strike.

+1

I have a small pond (with SMB and BG) and IMO it is way easier to manage than a larger one would be. Small changes by adding to your predator base and/or removing a few by angling can make adjustments to the pond balance way easier than in a larger pond. In addition to what Yolksac said, if you think you have too much recruitment from your BG you can always add a few more SMB or WE or YP (yes they eat small BG) or .....

IMO starting with SMB and BG just means you might end up with a more diverse pond than originally planned...never know what you will catch when you toss in a line!

Thanks. So in you guys opinion is it too early to be putting in SMB or HSB? Or the sooner the better to control any spawning by the BG that take place in the spring?

I'd definitely avoid the HSB for now, until your forage base is built up; you can add them in the spring anytime you want.
With that in mind, if you stocked the GS and FHM heavily, and your BG were of a size to prevent predation right now, I would stock a few smallies this fall, perhaps 10. If they grow a bit over the winter, and have a good spring surge, depending on the size you stock they might be able to pull off a spawn next summer. This would be highly desirable in getting off to a good start controlling BG populations. I'm probably in the minority in this opinion, but I would even consider adding a few larger, wild caught fish, perhaps 8-10", for the same reason. There is always the possibility of bringing in a disease, or invasive plant, so keep this in mind.

Need to address this post as it relates to BG population management and nudge it in the right direction. Based on my experience over the past several years and other cool water species fishery managers, predator density can serve as a BG population management tool as has been discussed, but since BG over 5" are virtually invulnerable to predation of limited gape predators, predator density/additional predator stocking is not a simple solution. The problem is that once BG attain this size they cannot be utilized as forage by SMB/YP/WE/HSB except by an exceptional fish. I'm not confident you'll be growing any 25"+ HSB or 18"+ SMB in a half acre pond, and certainly not if you have dense predator populations. Further, considering the small sized pond, one cannot simply continue to stock predator species as we're facing a limited carrying capacity in .5 acres. If one were to employ a solution only focusing on dense predator population, the BG 1-3" will be extirpated and you'll still be left with an overpopulation of BG in the 5-6" range not to mention likely low WR predators [slow growing skinny SMB, YP, HSB] as there's a lack of appropriate sized forage. This is exactly the scenario about which Cody, Yolk and I have been warning everyone. The solution to BG population management in a limited gape fishery is not predator density alone - it's an element of the solution, maybe, but it's not that easy - especially in a small pond with limited carrying capacity.

Bill D, what size is your pond again? I forget.

Do you have to consider carrying capacity when adding predators? How many BG per surface acre should be removed by angling per year? Does sex of the BG removed make a difference?

Esshup,

Very interesting discussion.

Our pond is a water table pond that varies from .35 to .6 acres.

IMO of course you have to consider carrying capacity. I try for 100 to 150 pounds for my little puddle That’s one reason I posted you may need to harvest predators if the conditions warrant it, for example, signs the predators are over eating their forage base. I admit TJ’s example above where all the 1 to 3 inch BG are being extirpated but yet the pond is filling with 5 to 6 inch BG has me scratching my head. If the BG never make it past 3 inches then where are all those 5 to 6 inch BG coming from? IMHO you would want most of the 1 to 3 inch to be consumed with what few recruits that make it through being your future brood stock and your BG for angling/harvest. If you have too many 5 to 6 inch BG then maybe reach into your management tool box and consider adding a few large gap predators like single sex LMB as bonus catches.

With respect to how many BG should be harvested per year, IMHO, it depends. Using TJ’s example of all 1 to 3 inch BG disappearing, maybe you harvest no BG and harvest a few predators in an effort to get BG recruitment to your goal. IMO selectively harvesting male of female BG is a neat management tool although I’m not sure I could reliably identify male from female until they get pretty big (except maybe prespawn when the females are gravid).

My point was that with a small BOW removing/adding relatively small numbers of predators can significantly alter the pond dynamics where in large BOWs it is much more difficult.

I don’t mean to suggest it is easy or that we will necessarily get the outcome we are hoping to achieve. For example, if we add YP to the SMB and BG pond, they will undoubtedly target small BG but they will probably also draw the attention of the SMB away from BG as forage in lieu of the more fusiform YP forage. So what would be the net effect on the BG population of adding YP to the mix? Would the YP feed on the SMB spawn and effectively help manage the SMB population?

My extensive experience with YP is YP are comparatively poor predators of BG. Plus in a BG based pond, what little predation pressure they provide is limited to slow swimming very small BG.

Small post-fry BG habitate shallow areas not normally frequented by YP (4"-8"). Plus importantly, the smaller your predominate YP are, the smaller BG they are able to catch and eat. Extensive research indicates that handling time and prey size are very important to predators targeting fish. Pond perch are not aggressive behavior type predators that capture active, normal swimming sunfish such as 1" to 1.5" BG. Try catching some 1"-1.5" long BG with a sweep net to get an idea of how fast small BG can swim. As a result YP in BG based fisheries exhibit relatively poor growth rates (less than average) and the YP are forced to alternatively feed primarily on invertebrates that are usually quite limited and sparse in a BG based community.

Just a note to Bill's comment. In cool water (up north)YP will eat a lot of small BG (< 3 inches) when the water cools as their metabolism is still high when the BG's start to slow. Easy pickings for the YP. Several studies on this. YP are no where near the best predator to control BG as SMB , WE , HSB and LMB can do the same thing on a larger scale. LMB not so much when the water cools as their metabolism is close to that of BG. There are non predator methods of reducing BG as well. Neither YP , SMB or HSB will alone in normal numbers control BG up north and there is doubt if LMB can either if the BG get a big head start on them. You will have to manage the populations by various methods but that is why you have a pond in the first place.

I have a client that is just starting to stock his 3 - 3 1/2 acre pond. He wants to have SMB as the main focus of the fishery, so we are going the YP/RES/FHM/GSH route. He wants crappie and that will be a possibility a few years down the road with Hybrid Crappie. We are also adding some HBG to the mix early, and don't plan on restocking them. This pond will be stocked with as many species of feed trained fish as are available, and there will be 2-3 feeders on the pond from day 1 of stocking.

The concerns are that regular northern BG will not be controlled by the SMB, and if LMB are added to the pond to control them, then the SMB fishery will go away after 5+ years. Finding advanced sized SMB that are feed trained and are large enough to avoid predation by 5+ pound LMB isn't easy or inexpensive.........

The pond is designed to have minimal spawning areas for the BG, but still there's the chance that they WILL reproduce in numbers that can't be controlled.

BillD. - you advised to stock additional predators to handle BG population issue. The stunted 5" fish are already in the pond given your scenario: BG population issue - that's the impetus to stock more predators! These are slow growing adults - and a few will continue to run the gauntlet, and are anywhere from age 3-9. It's a bottleneck situation, just like LMB can do at 8-10" or 12-14", etc. Since these 5" BG aren't vulnerable to predation, their population stacks year after year with no management - bottle necked at that size range. That's 5-6 years worth of BG, all stunted into the same size range, tying up biomass and utilizing forage which could benefit desirable species. That's what the predator density solution will render - one cannot just stock more predators, it's not that simple, and that's why this solution alone isn't going to be effective. Further, all those predators now densely stocked have no forage and WR drops so you have zero quality fishing for any species. That's the scenario we're trying to help the forum avoid - through direct experience. The solutions are complex and depend on multiple variables.

So, we're back to the original advice: Managing BG population in a limited gape fishery requires significant management through angling, trapping, seining, etc. in order to be truly successful as a higher quality fishery. Stocking additional predators in my experience can have an impact on the population, but it will also tax your pond resources and can result in low WR predators as well. Doubt that is the goal for any fishery.

Be on the lookout for an upcoming PB mag article (not next issue but the following)on asking and answering the right question. You have to see the forest first and then each tree. It is not always best to fixate on a symptom and address it but is better to understand the big picture and ask "why". Good work TJ ! Its not always about managing the put and take but rather what is going on and why. Keep in mind that in most non-heavily managed waters the biggest problem is not enough food - that is hard to manage on an ongoing basis with just harvest restrictions/adding forage programs. First ask is the goal realistic and if yes then how.

TJ,

I apologize for any confusion. Actually, I think we are pretty much on the same page. The pond has to be actively managed for all aspects. If you check back to my posts you’ll see I actually said some predators need to be removed if they start to overeat their forage (so no stunted predator population) and also said that excess BG that make it to recruitment also need to be removed to control their numbers (so no stunted BG population). I believe that agrees with what you are saying. My thought about adjusting type and number of predators is this should help keep the number of BG that grow to recruits at a more manageable number. Maybe not. My point is that it should be much easier to impact pond dynamics of a small pond by adjusting type and number of predator and thru harvest than it would be with a large pond. If that is true, then perhaps small pond owners may have more species combination options that are not available with larger BOWs.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to try and educate this newbie. I guess I will move ahead with my strategy(so far so good moving into year 4) but will definitely take your advice to heart. It is much appreciated! Who knows, maybe I will learn something of value I can share with the forum. Another advantage of a small pond is it is way easier to nuc and start over!

Mitch,

Sorry for hijacking your thread! To answer your question, IMHO SMB can be hard to find in the spring. I would stock a few now if you have a source. I don't know about HSB.

Bill D.