Are they any good as a pondfish? have any of you ever tried them? Will they spawn/lay eggs in most ponds or do they have complex spawning requirements and will they have to be restocked at some point? Can they coexist with other fish?

They'd compete with LMB/SMB for the same type of forage food and they will spawn in a pond/lake. I know that their eggs are collected for a type of caviar, but I have never heard of them as being raised as a food fish for their flesh.

Down south here they are a scourge that will eat everything in the pond if given a chance, we call them grinnells. Not sure you can eat them- never heard of anybody eatin them- prolly depends what water condition they are in. Very aggressive fish that fights well. Mostly a swamp dweller.

Pat W

Read posting in Wikipedia. Burbot, a similar looking fish but far different taxonomically, is certainly considered better eating.
West of the continental divide, Burbot are becoming a problem. Read Wyoming Game and Fish stuff on Burbot Flaming Gorge Reservoir if you'd like some more info.

As a fish taxidermist I've mounted a few. The flesh is different than most species. Kind of sticky and greasy.

aaronmac,

I have a few in my pond and did not realize till after I had stocked my Fathead mennows and Bluegill.

I was observing my Fatheds schooling by the bank one evening when I seen a green submarine come up from the bottom real slow and swallow a mouth full. I happen to have a shotgun with me so I assisted him in making the transition into the next life. 3 pounder.... Became worm food.

Since then, we have caught 10 more, one at a weight of 7 pounds 1 ounce.

Food wise, you have to know how to clean them by removing the blood line or the mud line near the spine. The locals will eat them but for me, i just prefer to make them fertilizer for the garden. If you freeze the meat and defrost, it will come out mushy.....yuck....

We have several names we call them, Swamp Bass, Cypres Trout, Shoupique, Mudfish, Griddle, Bowfin, Mud pike.

Wikipedia Quote "Bowfin were once considered to have little commercial value because of its poor tasting meat which has been referred to as "soft, bland-tasting and of poor texture".[2][10] However, it is considered quite palatable if cleaned properly and smoked, or prepared fried, blackened, used in courtbouillion, or in fishballs or fishcakes."

Coupe

That makes perfect sense as that is what they are like after I get them out of the freezer to skin.

Interesting thing about them I read on the NANFA (North American Native Fish Association). (Or was it a PM he sent me?) Someone was able to seine a bunch of small ones with a permit and ended up selling them for research at a very good price. Anyway, he said what was really weird was they would only face in one direction in the circular tank regardless of the direction of the flow. He thinks it has something to do with their primitive ancestry and the Coriolis Effect.

I am hoping and assuming that a body of water with well establish predators such as LMB, Catfish, that the new hatchlings will be consumed before reaching adulthood.

I will have to make a walk around the pond tonight and see if I can eyeball any of them.

Coupe

Cecil,

Did he specify which direction? That is very interesting information.

Aaronmac,

I am curious. With all the "good" fish available for stocking, why do you want to stock bowfin?

They are a fascinating fish, living fossil that has been around since the dinosaurs time,would serve a predator role, tolerant of low oxygen and I have heard they get fairly big and put up a nice fight if someone wanted to ever try fishing their pond..

They about like putting a crocodile in a swimming pool... Not normally a real good idea... Well maybee sometimes!


Pat W

If you want a predator that grows larger and tolerates low oxygen consider the northern pike (NP). The meat is better to eat than bowfin.

Pat,

"They about like putting a crocodile in a swimming pool".

Now that is funny, don't care who you are....lol

I would do anything to get rid of them.....

I had just a small puddle left when I made my pond and elected not to kill what was there......did't think anything was there.....lesson learned and passing along.....,go the distance and kill what is left in a puddle.....even if nothing moves in the water....

Coupe

Aaronmac,
Bowfin (choupique) are considered nothing short of an armored eating machine (trash fish) in the south. I cannot see any value in placing this species in a pond. They will wreck your forage world. Yes, it's truly fascinating that the species has survived from its prehistoric origin. Maybe a large aquarium would be more apropos if you are fascinated with and would like to study this species.

They're abundant here in any BOW the river gets into when it floods. Fierce fighters and a 3 footer will destroy most common tackle. The local Western Auto used to give away a Zebco rod and reel to whoever brought in the biggest fish caught every Saturday. I won at least a dozen of them over the years by bringing in grinnils. Some black guys from up north used to come down a few times in the summer to fish for them. They called them cypress trout and bragged about how good they were. I never tried them but I had a great uncle who like them better than any other fish and he said you has to hang them up alive and bleed them out before you cleaned them or he didn't like them.

If you ever get mad at a pond owner dump a handful of grinnells in his pond.... Wow that is mean ain't it... They do fight well.


Pat

A big Choupique will tear up anything not bolted down in a boat too, if they ever come unhooked and get to flopping around...personal experience....

They were sure a scourge back when some buddies and I liked to run jugs or trot lines in the river washouts. They would eat anything we used for bait trying to catch catfish and would often get hooked on a trot line before we got across the washout baiting hooks. If we had the patience to fish out the grinnils a bit, we could catch some nice catfish.

For me they are without a doubt the hardest fighting fish I have ever caught. They can really make a drag sing.

IIRR they can breath out of water.

In South Louisiana where I grew up, I've seen some interesting and innovative commercial uses for the choupique.

In Pierre Part, LA there used to be a guy who raised them in above ground pools in his yard and would remove their rowe by making an incision in their underbelly, then stich it back up using some type of thread. I used to pass the guys house often on my way to the Atchafallaya Basin to go fishing and stopped one day when I saw him outside and he shared the process with me.

Then there was a place on La. Hwy 1 south of Paincourtvile right on Bayou Lafourche that sold choupique poboys that were excellent. The owner said the trick was to cook them fresh....so after you ordered, he'd go out back and net a fish in his tubs, clean it, and fry it up.

Some of you may be familar with John Folse's seafood cook book, Hook, Fin's and Alibi's, among his other 2 popular ones, and he states that "With less than 5 percent salt content, Cajun Caviar ranks among the finest malossol (little salt) caviar in the world." Folse cites the common La name "choupique" being derived from the Choctaw Indian word, "shupik" which means mudfish.

All that considered, they are about the last fish I'd want in my pond....right in the same category as alligator gar:-)

Aaronmac

Well now what do you think of bowfins ? It would be a fine experiment, and we think you aught to give em a whirl! Let us know how it works ...... Just kidding

They are an interesting critter but not for everyone


Pat W

Pat, I would like to have a "trash fish" pond - just for fly fishing ...grinnels and carp come to mind ...don't know what I would feed them - each other maybe..
They would be tackle busters for sure!
G/

I have caught many a Bowfin, we call them Grennel up here in N.La. The Bowfin is one of the hardest fighting fresh water fish I know of. Caddo Lake is close and where this fish lives. I thought of transplanting one to my pond. The largest I have caught would be in the 12 to 15 lb range. A 4 lb fish will tear up a spinnerbait and a 10# fish will tear up a Jig nd Pig. As long as no breading goes on, it would be a blast to catch one as a surprise once in a while. But, sometimes u would have to replace your artificial bait after catching one of the larger size fish. I have seen Duck guides go nuts for these fish when duck hunting in S. La. In hard rains, in high water , they would catch them by hand for cooking, and for the row.

George,
You might as well throw in some needle nose & alligator gar and a few nasty old freshwater eel. Ha!
Charlie

Feed them BH to keep with the "Theme" of the pond?

Bill D.,
...that would give a new meaning to "you are what you eat"...with that, it would be a "true" trash fish pond. Heck, you could feed'em anything. Dang Bill, you might be on to something here.
Charlie

Growing up in East Texas, I recall tearing up tackle and busting knuckles on old direct drive bait casting reels.

A good friend of mine needs some Bowfin to clean out his mud cats...but I ain't gonna tell! But wait a minute - he may already have some..
It's not the fish in the fight - it's the fight in the fish!
George

I think he did but I don't remember. I'll see if I can find it if I can still remember my password on the site.

Edit: Found it. Always counterclockwise.

Back in the mid-70's, I was fishing some flooded woods backwater in SW Louisiana with a buddy out of a 14' flatbottom alum boat. I hooked what I thought was a monster LMB. It turned out to be a monster choupique. Don't know what he weighed, but he was much longer than the bottom of the boat was wide. My guess today 8-9lbs. I managed to get him unhooked before he started tearing through the boat. He managed to flop down in the middle of an open 2 door center opening tackle box...that's when all hell broke loose. Lures and baits with treble hooks were flying everywhere...like a hurricane in a tackle shop...we had no place to run. Just made a vain attempt to cover our eyes and faces until the rapture subsided...not long after that, the big fish flipped out of the boat back into the water and swam off with about 4-5 lures and hooks imbedded in several parts of his body...true story.
Stickem

LOL....Charlie you made my day. Good story! Reminds me of the night a big CC tore the seat out of my pants but we will leave that story for a different day...........

I got hit in the forehead by a jumping rainbow trout one night fishing with lanterns. Not sure if that was the night our lantern went to the bottom of the lake or not.

Ever thrown the anchor in and forgot to tie the other end of the line to the boat?...

A couple of years later...3 of us were running wide open in a 14' alum boat w/ 20hp Mercury on our way duck hunting before daylight. I was seated up front with the lantern and two buddies were side by side in the back. A mullet jumps and nails me square in the middle of my chest. One buddy in the back busted out laughing and about that time another mullet jumps and slaps him right in the mouth.... we laughed close to tears.

Bill,
...good thing you had pants on...do tell!

I have had mullet hit me while running a boat across the bay- that hurts

Pat W

I have been anchored and fishing in the ship channel and caught two nice anchors with ropes attached on a fishing line in the same fishing trip...

No but one of my exbrother-in-law did something like that. It was a nice anchor too!

I left the plug out of the boat when launching once. Never did it again!

You are the man Cecil!

Plug in the boat.....So I had this 12 foot john boat sitting at the dock that had about 3 inches of water in it. The boat is equipped with a mighty 7 hp outboard so I think I will just take it out, get it going fast and then pull the plug. The water will run out, right? Wrong! I did get the plug back in before I sank! Had a coffee can for bailing so happy ending.....bailing the original 3 inches out would have been a lot faster but then I wouldn't have this story to tell!

I would love to go fishing with you sometime my friend but I am quite sure one of us would end up in the water and the other would have a hook in his ear!

Any idea why it didn't work? Too full? It's always worked for me.

On a funny note my cousin who can't swim was driving my boat out of the pier. I was in the front seat. We had some water in the boat and I told him to pull the plug and open up the motor. He just looked at me. I told him again. No response. I told him one more time. He just looks at me with hesitation. I tell him there is nothing to worry about that it really works. He says,"no."

Turns out we fished with wet feet 'cause he was afraid to do it and he wouldn't switch seats. Kind of pissed me off. I drove the boat from then on and I pulled the damn plug if need be! But usually I remembered to pull the plug with the boat on the ramp before we backed it in.

The boat stays in the garage now and never gets wet unless it rains while I'm fishing.

I'm older and wiser now. It's the other people I worry about on the lakes now. The biggest natural lake in the state is 10 minutes from me and although the fishing is great I fear for my life there. A lot of the speed boaters appear to be inebriated..

That's an easy one. If I would have somebody in the front of the boat it would have worked fine. Since I was alone with no one to counter balance and pull the front of the boat down, all the water moved to the back with me and the motor. Could not get enough speed out of that little seven to get the boat to plane.

Might have still worked ok if I had a way to trim that 7 but they ain't built that way.

Anyone besides me, arrive at the boat ramp in the early morning darkness, ready for a duck hunt, and get out of the truck to see the trailor but no boat?

No, but I did once see no trailer.

No but one summer when I worked for the INDNR I did see some anglers show up without their fishing gear. A van pulls up. They pull out a small boat and are all ready to go when one if them asks, "Hey where are the fishing poles?" Soon they put the boat back in, pile back in the van, and leave

I've launched the boat, go to pull back up the ramp and the trailer came unhitched, digging into the bottom of the lake at the tongue.

It seems that the nut that was on the bottom of the latch worked it's way loose on the way to the lake.

To get the trailer out of the lake I just drug it out with the truck, making a nice trench in the dirt boat ramp. I spent the majority of the day running all over the nearby towns to find the part. We were fishing on Sunday morning.

Ended up at a Wal-Mart and bought a whole bolt-on/weld-on part and cobbling it together with the one that was welded onto the trailer to get the boat back out of the lake and home...

It was up near Constantine, MI.

We found the boat about 1/2 mi up the rd from the ramp. It was like it just slid off the trailer. All the decoys and such were still in the boat and the boat was in the ditch beside the rd. Boat was lying rite side up , just like we launched it there. It was a pain in the arse to get it back on the trailer. U know, boats are a lot heaver than they look lol

One time many years ago we were offshore fishing in my 25'Mako for red snapper about 40 miles out. We were tied off to a rig and I was on the bow fishing. It was rough that day 5'-7' seas. My fishing buddy was in the stern fishing and he says to me, is there supposed to be water in the floor? Omg no! I went to the stern to see what was happening and the water was coming over the transom at the engine. O- crap, the hatch had popes up enough to let sea water in to the point that the bilge was full and the batteries were under water. The engine fired right up. Miracle. I went to run the bilge pump- no worky- so the only way to get the water out was to jump in and remove the drain plug and run the water out! Unhooked from the rig and headed towards Galveston. Talk about sluggish the boat had the bilge full of water and prob 6" in the floor. And the seas were not helping at all,anyway got the boat going and bow up and water going down . It took prob 25 minutes to empty out the hull . After the water drained out I just put a expandable plug in temporary till we got to dry land . That was a scary thing to happen that far out in the Gulf

Pat W

I flipped a 14' Ouachita flat bottom alum boat, 30hp Johnson outboard still strapped to the trailer....wheels up! Then drove into a ravine up to the side view mirrors. One safety chain kept the whole rig from coming through the back Window of my Ford F150. Totaled the pick up....Johnson outboard fired right up....Louisiana State Trooper wasn't too impressed...

I did something like that. Started backing the trailer into a little canal at the lake. Some Kids were swimming around and I got out to make sure they were out of the way. I FORGOT THAT THE CAR WAS IN REVERSE. I got about 5 ft away when the whole works started backwards into the drink. The car floated for about a minute.

Dave I don't know if I would have told that one lol. I watched that happen at lake DeGray in Ark. Guy backed in a ski boat and a new firebird. I sat in a restaurant and watched the whole thing happen. only thing floating was the bubbles coming up. Sounds like we all have messed up a time or two, when around water or pretty women

There's a little more to it. At the time I lived in a trailer court. I went to a phone booth and called the owner of the park. He had a trailer puller. I told him what had happened and told him to come pull the car out of the canal but keep his mouth shut. It took longer than I figured it would because he was so close. However, a little later he pulled up. He had notified everybody around about what had happened and there was a regular caravan behind him. Most brought beer. I didn't need that. I already felt dumb enough without everybody agreeing with me.

This was in the early 70's and the car was a pristine, low mileage 59 Ford with a motor and transmission that I had done some interesting things to. I drained and replaced all of the fluids and it started beautifully. I kept it another 5 years. Sometimes during humid weather it had an odd smell. Then weird things like brake springs started breaking. Lots of things that had never broken or gone wrong on any car that I had ever even heard about started happening. Don't remember what I did with it.

Thanks, DD1....I don't feel so bad...

Gentlemen...I can only offer one piece of advice...even if you are only going a mile and are in a hurry, never drive an old Ford Jubilee tractor at top speed with the front end loader all the way up filled to capacity with locust fence posts not tied down over a railroad track.

There's a reason I don't own big expensive toys - I'd likely have a story worse than all of yours. I'm the man who has dropped 6 pairs of expensive hemostat/shears off my dock the last few years, plus 2 Iphones. I estimate I've dumped at least $500 worth of Aqua Max in 5G buckets forgetting to put the tailgate up, and I probably shouldn't mention the multiple times I forgot to put on the feeder lids right before a nice 2" rain only to return to maggot ridden mush. I'm amazed I'm still walking around, frankly.

And all this aaronmac goes to show you what can happen.....imagine if we had all stocked Bowfin too!

Bill
We gonna scare all these newer than us folks to death... Sounds like we all belong to same club.... It's a wonder we all still alive... And all Aaron wanted to know about is grinnells and look where that went! LOL


Pat W

Ever get eager to fish in the late winter when it thaws a bit and carefully back the boat trailer down the ramp, then get out only to find the trailer is sitting on top of the ice? Happened to me twice. Another time I planned to fish on my day off. Got out in the boat and on my 3rd cast I caught a treble hook in the top of my ear. That smarted and I couldn't get it out so I just cut the line and fished about 3 hours with the hook in my ear. Stopped by the doctor's office on my way home and had it cut out.

Just told my wife yesterday that I would probably be a hell of a water diviner. No matter where I put the dog's bowl of water in my taxidermy showroom one of my feet slams into it! The water really flies too!

Sorry, I have to bring this up now that you mentioned a water diviner. Back in the late 60's my dad had a diviner come out to the farm to locate all the old field tiles. The guy took two pieces of #9 wire bent in a L shape and walked around with one piece in each hand. Every once in a while the wires crossed and he said, here's one. I am thinking "yea right!" After he left, I put the same two pieces of #9 in my hands and tried to make them cross. You have no grip, not easy to do.....when we dug up the tiles he was within a couple of feet of their location. Do I believe diviners can find water.......Hmmmm

I was a skeptic on water witching/divining but now believe in it.

About 20 years ago we decided to have a well dug on our place. So, I called a local driller who came out and asked where I wanted it. The most convenient place was close to the house and he poked a hole in the ground there. Nada, no water found. So, we tried a couple of other random spots, went down to 500 ft again with no results. I paid him and he left. There went $10,000 and I got into the beer.

A couple of days later, I thought of witching/divining. I bent a couple of brass rods and stated walking around the field in front of the house. At one point one of them swung. I walked over the same place a couple of times with no result but marked the spot. It didn't happen again anywhere in the 3 or 4 acres. So, I started asking around about water witching and got referred to a guy. He came out and used a couple of forked willow limbs. At the point where the brass rod had indicated, the sticks pulled down. He said it was either a lot of water or water close to the surface. When I held the sticks nothing happened. Then, a local cowboy buddy of mine dropped by and tried it. In his hands the sticks pulled down so hard that he had trouble holding them. The bark on the wood actually started cracking. I tried it again with no results. When he tried it again, I put my hands on the sticks and all activity stopped. I just can't do it.

I had a well dug there and found water. It was at 70 ft. and most wells in the area were at 400+ ft. But, it was only 1/10 gpm and most wells in the area produce 5 to 10 or more gpm. Not much. However, I went to the local plumbing/well supply place, asked questions, and bought a 2,500 gallon holding tank. It comes out of the well, into the tank and then into a well house where I have the pump and pressure tank that then goes to the house and corrals. That 1/10 gpm is 24/365 so I have no problems. Well, no problems as long as I winterize it every time I leave during the winter. Cast iron pumps can dang sure freeze and break.

I'd love to have an old restored Ford Jubilee tractor for the farm.

I know a guy who owns a small oil co. When he drills a well in Titus Co. Texas, he uses a whitcher and the guy uses 2 rods to witch with. I have seen the guy do it. He would say drill here. It worked every time. In Titus county, an oil well produces water with the oil. Drill down to 4,500'. The oil guy wont drill a well there without this.

WOW, witching at 4,500 ft.

yes and I would never have believed it, but I saw this on more than one occasion.

I doubt if you can drill a dry hole in Titus County right now...
G/

Got a couple places west of me between Esshup and I that probably has one. They have acres and acres of old tractors.

I saw one for sale along the road not long ago in Harvard, IL. Looked like they had an old Farmall H as well.

If it's a sentimental thing, than I totally understand. If you will be using it for work, I would probably try and hold out for something with live power...which the Jubilee could have, but not very likely. It might have live hydraulics, but again maybe not.

I have an 801 series Ford, sort of a Jubilee's bigger brother, and while I like it, and it does work hard for me, its days here are numbered. I will be trading if off for a 4WD with live power and hydraulics, and a front end loader that doesn't require a day's work out of three men and a boy to install.

The newer tractors are so much more user-friendly.

Back on heading.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/amiidae.html




Greg Grimes electrofished this out of a renovation pond.

Good Lord Ewest, THANK YOU. For a post that asked a simple ? this has transgressed to a lost my boat, lost my boat and trailer, lost my boat,trailer and car to divining and Cecil kickin his dogs bowl around. Perhaps someone will start a thread that begins with "Hold my beer and watch this".
PS I enjoyed all the stories and will spare you some of mine. Also can't believe JKB hasn't chimed in.

Darn
The adults came to the rescue! It was fun while it lasted



Pat w

We haven't heard from the thred starter whether or not he is going to stock bowfins or not

We'd love to hear your stories Bob. Bring 'em on! Maybe eventually we'll come full circle to the topic without Eric having to put us back manually!

I think the threads that morph into areas unrelated to the original query are often the ones that yield the best, albeit unrelated to topic, information.

You are all better than Jerry Springer. I watch his show just ta make myself feel better and I laugh out loud once a show. I've laughed out loud several times in reading the last few posts.
PW I ain't no adult and the poor tread starter is probly in shock sittin on some riverbank fishin for Carp.
Cecil, I just couldn't demean this site with my stories. I'll share some of em with you in person. Got a couple about WILD Bill Cody. As a teaser, did ya know he almost got beat up at Disneyland?

I'm all ears for Cody tales...or create separate post.

Dudes, I very much respect Bill and won't expose anything that might embarrass him. I will ask him if he don't mind my telling the Dis story. Stay tuned.

Bob-O

I'm sure no one thinks of you as an adult- that would be turrible- just an older kid like most of us here.



Pat W

Thanks, Cecil...you think they have a website?

Sparkplug,
Yes, the Jubilee would be for nostalgic reasons. The old iron horses have done their time. For me it would be like owning a classic car...mostly for pleasure and show. For work on the farm, I have a 4wd Kubota with loader.
Charlie

I think it's this one judging by the location on the map close to thr intersection of state rd. 6 & 15.

http://www.mcgrewtractorparts.com/

Cecil, thanks for the link!

If you plug that address in Google Earth, the lot on the NW corner of the intersection is where Polk has their tractor/farm equipment auctions. They have at least 2 auctions a year that I know of, maybe more. They are huge, and usually their auction site approximately 13 acres is packed with equipment.

http://www.polkauction.com/

Thanks Scott!

Thanks, Scott!

I often wonder if aaronmac ever stocked any bowfin after this thread...

I might get some to eat the bass up

+1 Charlie!!!

IMHO There are a lot of similar threads I read that are really interesting but, when I got to the end, that final post that closes the loop and lets me know what the outcome was, is missing. Makes it hard to learn from someone else's experience if they don't provide the result!

Pat,
Then, you're gonna need to get some big ones to eat the big ole sows (LMB) that you got swimmin' around in your pond...

I am in southeast Georgia and we call them cypress trout. They get pretty good size and like everybody says they hit like a truck and are aggressive. When we fish the okefenokee we target them since that jackfish is about all there is unless you want some warmouth. I have a couple of ponds on my land. one a little over year ago but in some catfish and bluegill and whatever was already there. Caught a bowfin the other day out of it. Did not think there was any in it. I know way way back when I was a kid I would catch fish out of one pond and just throw them in the biggest one which is where I put the catfish and bluegill. I know there are some bass in there and now bowfin I wonder if those jackfish I put in there twenty years ago are still there also. lol. must not be many in it because I have way way too many bluegills and my bass are still skinny. Then the other day my cousins boy down there at pond and saw a otter. Now that can not be good. I told him when he is down there duck hunting and if he sees him to take care of it for me. lol...

So, what was the question?

Bowfin will compete with LMB for food. So, if the LMB are skinny, you are already low on forage for them.......