Anyone know where I can source RES around Albany NY? Any options for mail order?

Thanks

Have you checked with these guys?

Smith Creek Fish Farm - New York

I was thinking about ordering Paper Shell Crawfish from them.

They told me they could ship them to Texas,
but I never pulled the trigger.

Seemed like nice folks.

RES may not survive in that cold of an environment (NY).

They don't do well much further north than central PA in the east...

Thanks for the suggestion, but they do not have them. Also they suggested it is illegal to stock them in NY.

Does anyone know if they are illegal to stock in NY?

Is this a question of limited growth, spawning, or that they just won't survive?

The USGS says they live in Western NY and up in Vermont. Not sure how well, but they do exist there.

The local fish farm doesn't have RES, but suggested stocking HBG instead. How well will this play with SMB already in the pond?

Is it not a coincidence that the local fish farm didn't have RES and they suggested HBG? And "by the way" they (we) do just happen to have HBG. Sounds like a 'fishy' way to sell fish. I would be leery of their fish mgmt. advice. If you really want RES, then do what it takes to get them. Take a day or two day drive to whoever has them. Fish farms can provide boxed oxygenated fish that will stay alive 24hrs if the set-up is done properly. For a small pond with SMB one only needs 25-50 RES to get them established. Do your homework.

I have a couple local ponds that have SMB and HBG, one with YP and one without. Fish are fed pellets and fishery does pretty good with some periodic harvest management. One of the ponds has had HBG-SMB for about 23 yrs and the HBG have pretty much reverted to what looks like a primarily green sunfish population. HBG were never restocked after the initial stocking.

It is kind of odd RES are not on these lists for NY:

Red Ear Sunfish Fishing Records By State

NY Fishing State Records

It is possible that RES are extremely rare in the state of New York or not even present because the link by Cornell University does not list redear sunfish. Redbreast and pumpkinseed sunfish are listed but not redears. There are a few northern strains of RES that do survive as far north as southern Michigan, so it is feasible that a northern strain of redears could survive in some most southern areas of NY.

DNR Summary of RES in Michigan;
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364_53405-222228--,00.html

DNR Report (pdf):
http://www.michigandnr.com/publications/pdfs/ifr/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf

The farthest north I know of a RES population in the east is central PA in Raystown Lake. That population is small. There are several smaller lakes right along that MD/PA line that have RES.

The plan is to add another data point. Although not as far north as the VT ones, I hopefully can provide proof for everyone here. Time will tell on this one.

animal....looks like if it works out for ya,
you could get listed as the state record holder pretty easily!

Great read. Thanks for the link.

I would check to see if stocking RES is even legal in NY. NY have very strict laws and I know stocking RES is illegal in PA...

Yes, I guess I can call this one off. RES in NY has been denied since it is not native and could present a challenge to native species.

Very disappointing.

Is there any other suggestions in place of RES?

What is the plan for the fishery? This will determine our stocking suggestions. Let us know your goals, we'll relate your best options.

Pumpkinseed sunfish is the closest relative of the RES. They are similar but far from the same. Other options include RBS and LES.

I already have SMB in the pond and plan on adding YP (8-12") to help feed them. The goal would be to have SMB for catch and release and the YP to harvest once in a while for fish fry. The attempt at RES was to add a pan fish that wouldn't over populate or stunt.

A suggestion to help with variety would be nice. Thanks.

Hey CJBS...why is it a state would not allow RES?
What are their downsides?

Maybe the same reason why a cold weather state would not allow Tilapia to be stocked in ponds (Illinois). (somebody's got their head where the sun don't shine)

HBG can serve as a companion panfish with SMB, but over several generations they can revert to nearly 100% GSF genetics per Cody and become a management issue.

PS may overpopulate and stunt per Dr Dave Willis experience.

BG WILL overpopulate and stunt without intensive management [seining, angling, fyke net].

If I were you I would try managing the fishery for SMB and YP only and adding a solid forage base of crayfish, some native minnow types, maybe a shiner species, and would establish a pellet feeding program. There is no silver bullet for Northern SMB fisheries on panfish species - but I'm trying to figure it out.

Travis suggests the RBS often - might want to explore that option.

The first other option is RES for RES? Maybe a typo, but interested in what you meant. For the LES will they over populate as well, or are they closer to population growth of the RES in the sunfish family?

This is exactly the conundrum! I may just have to stay with the SMB and YP only as you suggest.

I am looking to stock some various crayfish and GSH in the spring to help round things out.

Interesting suggestion of RBS. They don't present the same over population? Also, importantly they can be stocked in the state.

RES have in a few studies been shown to out compete PS. So maybe that is their concern? Maybe they just don't want a new species spread around the state that isn't native?

Northern pond owners have issues with panfish species selection in a YP, SMB, WE fishery. Some waters are too far North for RES, which is the panfish species typically recommended in fisheries featuring the predators noted above. Dr Willis has studied SMB fisheries with PS as the panfish - and while the SMB body conditions were strong, the PS population was stunted due to overpopulation. SMB can't manage a sunfish that fecund. The addition of YP and possibly WE would certainly help, as would the addition of HSB.

Travis has written about the RBS [redbreast sunfish] a few times and suspects it might be a suitable companion panfish species for fisheries like yours. He indicated they are less fecund than PS or BG, and are more fusiform making them easier to serve as forage even the larger fish.

You'd be the first forum member to stock RBS to try and address this issue and it would be very beneficial to the forum to learn from your efforts if you choose to go this route.

Sounds like RBS should be a good consideration. In order to control population, is a YP/SMB/WE fishery required, or will just the YP/SMB work?

Step 2 will be to locate RBS to pickup or air ship. Let me know if anyone knows any sources.

Thanks for the suggestion.

How many ya need?

http://www.zimmermansfish.com/Price.html

http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/jonahsite/fishlist.htm

Wow! Those are a little pricey. At $6/each I don't think I can afford to stock them.

With SMB already in the pond I imagine I need to go with larger size (like 6") or large numbers (200). Otherwise just a quick meal. I would prefer to get larger ones so I can stock something like 20, plus much cheaper to ship.

Thank you very much for the suggestions though.

Animal it looks like that place may be more of an aquarium type supplier...

lets keep digging...may be able to find them cheaper.

http://owenandwilliams.com/Fish.html

They will overnight them. I am having them send me the color morph variety in the spring.

animal asks - " In order to control population, is a YP/SMB/WE fishery required, or will just the YP/SMB work?"
IMO survival of YP and RBS in presence of SMB will depend on amount of weed growth that would provide refuge areas for the smaller fish. Lack of weeds and SMB can easily over eat a YP population and possible YP-RBS population depending on how many bass per acre are allowed to be present. Too few panfish, reduce number of bass and too many panfish, increase number of bass both scenarios assuming amount of weed cover stays relatively constant.

I would not add a second top end predator (WE) with the SMB until you know how the YP or YP-RBS perform (after 5-6yrs) in your pond conditions - type of habitat.

Perfect and the price is much better. I wonder how many of those 4-6" they can fit into a box. Will contact them to find out and the shipping costs.

Thanks

Bill, exactly what I was wondering about the RBS. I didn't know if they would easily over populate with SMB, in which WE were needed. I think you are suggesting that it can be controlled with a SMB/YP/RBS fishery. Just need to balance the numbers.

I will try to get the largest YP and RBS that I can in the spring to stock. We will see how this goes!

You can source the largest YP and RBS, only downside is availability and cost. Another option is caging higher qty smaller fish and growing them out on pellets. Added benefit is having pellet trained fish that grow faster and provide much faster angler return. I have grown YP to 8" in 8 months on Aqua Max, and I believe Cody and Cecil have done even better than that. Not sure RBS will take to pellets like BG, or will be more difficult like RES. Again, this project will add tremendously to the PB science archives!

Animal if you decide to try PKS to supply forage for your SMB I can direct you to a small mountain lake less than 2 hours from Albany with plenty of clean healthy PKS's.

Merry Christmas and a Happy Healthy New Year to everyone on the PB forum.

Same to you! Where have you been hiding or what are you up to?

Hey Cecil, I drop in from time to time but I'm busy helping my son renovate his old house and other projects, not doing much with the pond, but still growing some big PKS's.

Glad to see the forum is doing great.

AP - too long, my friend! Hope you had a Merry Christmas - post some winter wonderland pics for me of your brook and snow covered trees when time allows - please!