The question is more specific to a quarter acre pond, but I am sure it would apply to larger bodies as well.

Once the FHM's are all ate up, will the HSB be enough to control recruitment of the HBG off spring? If we assume 30-50 HSB in an aerated and fed pond, will that be enough to control the HBG and RES offspring? If not (which I believe is the case) What would be the BEST predetor to do that and the stocking rate for it? I am thinking about blue cat, or channel cat since they will also get large, but am unsure on the quantity.

The next question is if I make this a put an take pond which I would take very minimal fish maybe even assume catch and release only, how often should I add new stock? Would the stocked channel cats just eat my new stockers? Does this mean I will have to use grow out cages on all the new stock?

What are the chances of the HSB not eating the feed?


Is a HSB ONLY pond possible? Have 100 percent of my carrying capacity in pellet trained HSB? If they only eat pellets and there is no other natural forage, what does that do to the fishing techniques used in the fishery?

I am contemplating trying this to see what happens then if I get tired of it stocking the HBG once I know it does or does not work.


For a put and take HSB/HBG pond do I need anything more than a small spawning ground (if any) and a few fish attractors to localize the fish?

First, I think having an HSB only pond is very feasible. In fact, if you really have no interest in HBG, why stock them? I would consider stocking a few RES as their reproductive rates are minimal and they will shine without competition from any other Lepomis species. If I was doing a HSB/Sunfish pond, I would chose RES over HBG personally. In the absence of other Lepomids, RES will often be easier to catch as they will spread into the niche otherwise taken by BG or HBG.

To control HBG with only HSB, especially HSB that are feeding mostly on pellets there are a few things you should focus on. First is to limit the amount of cover in your pond. It is not needed or wanted... That includes aquatic vegetation, sunken trees, rock piles or other places where YOY or even fingerling F2 and late generation HBG can take cover. Second, before stocking the HBG, you should have the HSB be fairly advanced in size. I would say at least 12" and 16" would be better. This ensures they will have a mouth large enough to effectively prey on any F2 HBG born in the pond. Remember, HSB have mouths that are substantially smaller than LMB for example. Third, there is no need for any additional forage in a pond where HSB are the primary predator of the F2 HBG. Adding GSH or FHM will just mean the HSB will focus more on them and less on your HBG offspring.

To assist the HSB in keeping HBG reproduction under control, CC or blue catfish can be used. In a smaller 1/4 acre pond, just a handful of CC or even 1 blue catfish may be all that is needed. Once the catfish reach 20" or so, they should be removed and restocked with 10"-12" catfish. Unless one really has a desire to grow larger catfish. However in a 1/4 pond, that is probably not the best use of the available biomass.

The use of 1 LMB can also be effective in a 1/4 pond. In a larger pond, say up to 1 acre the use of 4-6 single sex LMB can be used. I would focus on capturing male LMB in the spring when they can be easily sexed. Their growth rates are slower and they should remain in the target size of 10"-15" range for a longer period of time before they should be removed in favor of smaller LMB. The idea is the have LMB that are focusing on removing the 2"-4" HBG F2 offspring. It is very easy to collect single sex crappies in the spring. They may also be an option to help control HBG reproduction in a HSB/HBG pond. Collecting a 1 to 2 dozen all female or all male crappies is not a difficult task when fishing a pond that holds them. Sexing crappies in the spring when they are spawning is very easy.

Most hatcheries offer HBG in the 4" range and some will offer fish up to 6". However, HBG do well in cages and this may be the best method to ensure the fish you release have high survival rates. Keeping them caged until they are 6" and then releasing them into the pond. You can cull out slower growing caged fish in favor of the fastest growing ones. By this size, the few females in the HBG population can also usually be picked out as well, minimizing reproduction by your HBG that much more.

Lots of good questions here....experts will weigh in, but a couple questions for you-
What are pond contours-steep sides,depths etc.
Is there any cover to protect yoy HBG/RES?

If you have a vigorous population of HSB, in several size classes, and a pond in which there is little cover for yoy, it's very possible they'll control the offspring, IMHO with one 1/2 acre pond.

I would definatly like some sort of panfish or smaller fish for some hook n bobberin for the kids maybe yellow perch?. The only cover I really plan on putting in is going to be a fish attracter near the dock to bring the panfish closer to the dock.

Three sides will be either a 3-1 or a 4-1 and one side a 6-1 w/ a peagravel beach. 10-12 feet deep

I don't HAVE to add any other cover.

I am OK w/ RES only as well, I have just read where they are not as easy to catch and don't grow near as big.

Perhaps I should provide SOME cover for the RES (or whatever other panfish) so I have a sustainable source for some fish fry's w/out having to restock.

With a HSB only pond I think if I can figure out what the nature of the fishing would be and it being fish heavy I can probably get some good action for a while, and as I start eating some of them the rest will only get bigger. Eventually I could restock and release any fish over say 16"?

Only HSB will adequately control the HBG or RES. HSB at 30-50 in a 0.25 ac pond is 120-200/ac and gives lots of predator "force". Bruce Condello a member here raised primarily HSB in a pond - he has experience. He may respond. If you use the HSB as the main predator on the RES or HBG, I would plan to periodically add smaller 4"-8" HSB and remove the largest ones as they are occasionally caught. Smaller HSB will better utilize the young of year sunfish 1"-3" compared to the larger 20"+ HSB. I think 20-30 HSB would be enough for your predator density. If necessary you can withhold pellets to HSB & HBG to get the HSB to selectively prey temporarily more on young HBG.

I would omit all catfish since they will eat pellets as hogs, grow large, be difficult to remove, tie up sport fish biomass, and also eat the add stocker HGB or larger RES. If you want to eat CC then use them otherwise they will IMO be problems for your stated goals. Larger add stock RES (5"-7") will be very, very difficult to regularly locate unless you live close to an unusual or atypical fish farm. RES are also very difficult to raise to larger sizes in a cage compared to HBG. I think that using HBG and RES together could result in a hybrid cross between the two species. I think the HBG would be an overall better panfish to use compared to HBG & RES.

CJ IMO also provides good advice and ideas.

What about a small amount of RES for "swimmers itch" in addition to the HBG?

I am really curios how consistant of a fishery a HSB dominant pond can become. My dad and I fish for HSB on lake Cumberland and they can be some VERY tempermental fish. Last thing I want to do is stock a fish I can only occasionally catch.

I could care less about catfish, they just seem to always be recommended in this type of environment.

Main problem with HSB in a small pond is they become hook smart. Catching them in the heat of mid summer is very stressful to them and often leads to their death. To reduce this, fish primarily when water is lower than 80F, minimize catch and release, restock periodically with 6"-8"ers, and don't fish frequently nor for very long each time. Spend your time at the pond managing the plants, monitoring -maintaining water quality and feeding the fish. Another option is to stock a fish that can be angled when the water is warmest.

We stock HBG together with RES, and male BG. To date, I haven't witnessed any crosses between the HBG and the RES. That's not saying it hasn't happened, only that we've never seen any. We control HBG recruitment with LMB....LOTS of LMB. And I never bothered with single sex fish. After four years I have yet to see any sign of LMB recruitment. I know there's some, but I seriously wonder if the combination of a pond with NO cover or vegetation, a population of "forage" that is 90-95% male, and coupled with an extremely heavy Bass population has resulted in a situation whereby the Bass have almost become self-limiting.....they appear to be eating their own offspring quite handily. I've spoken here before about the large numbers of our LMB that have taken to pelleted feed. Perhaps this will result in less predation of ALL species of YOY fish as time goes on?

We fished today for just over an hour. Out of 22 fish we had 15 HBG over a pound, with nearly half of those 15 over 1.25 lbs. We also caught 3 skinny LMB. (10-12") After four years with this scenario it appears to be working, but that's certainly not definitive proof.

We also have 100 HBG in a cage right now, growing out before releasing into the pond. It's an annual procedure for us, with the number of fish stocked yearly being the only variable.

While I will be the first to say HBG aren't right for every situation, they can really shine when used appropriately.

My youngest, with one from today. Simple worm and float fishing:

Just curious. Question on HBG. Do folks down south have CNBG x GSF to stock as HBG or are their HBG the same as the northern ones?

Bump

Bill, I do not have an absolute answer for you, but on the Dunn's web site when I ordered some RES and CNBG, they also listed HBG but I see no where did they offer northern BG. So I would deduce they were using CNBG males and GSF females. But that is just my assumption.

Edit: I correct myself. Checked on their web site just now.
http://www.dunnsfishfarm.com/fish_pricing.htm

Said the HBG are either GSFx native BG or CNBG. So I guess it could be either. Pot luck maybe.

Thanks Snrub,

I wonder if the CNBG x GSF would be more cold hearty than the CNBG? Would be an interesting thing to try in my N. Illinois pond as a little experiment.

Dunno. GSF are tough critters. Them and bullheads can survive about anything it seems. Maybe the CNBG/GSF cross would gain some of the hardiness of the beloved GSF.

Snrub, that's what I'm wondering. They sell CNBG, but not Northern BG. Maybe they buy the HBG fry?

This brings up another question. Say you have a pond that is at the edge of the Northern range of CNBG and the edge of the Southern range of Northern BG. Both will perform to their potential in your hypothetical pond. Which one do you stock? Is one more desirable than the other?

I'm going to hedge my bet by stocking northern strain. If the CNBG are at their northernmost limit, then an extended cold spell might spell their demise. The native BG will be fine in warmer water.

Plus, I'm not convinced CNBG will grow any larger than northern BG, given the same conditions.

As far as I know, there is no edge to the southern range of Northern BG. They will survive just fine in the same climate as CNBG.

Then the question is why do all the Southern folks stock CNBG instead of the Northern BG?

I think it's partly due to geographic optimization, as in it's often stated that CNBG will grow quicker in southern waters than northern strain will. And, I'll just go ahead and say it....many are convinced that CNBG will outgrow northern fish given the same conditions. it's been "standard knowledge" for a long time. Does that mean it's correct? I don't think so. If it were, shouldn't we be seeing two pound coppers everywhere we look? I've seen Richmond Mill giant bluegills of BOTH strains.

I think there's always a tradeoff somewhere. Coppers grow quicker, but northerns live longer. Both have indeterminate growth.

Bill I wondered the same questions after my pond was already stocked with local (Kansas) raised northern brood stock.

When I built the sediment pond, my intention was to put only RES and FHM in it. But about that time there was some really nice pics of CNBG be posted and I thought how pretty the fish were. So when I ordered the 200 RES to put in said pond, on a lark I also ordered 100 CNBG.

My thinking, right or wrong, was that the genetic diversity introduced to my main pond (once the CNBG spawned and populated the sediment pond, it was only a matter of time till they migrated via the runoff into the main pond) would not likely hurt anything and might help. The CNBG would be a tiny portion of the genetic base since the main pond was already populated by northern BG. My thinking was that I was probably on the northern limit of where CNBG might do "ok". I doubted they were the optimum choice for my latitude but no one knew for sure.

Any way, right or wrong, that was my thinking. I think it will be interesting over the years to see if more CNBG traits show up in my catch rate or if they just kind of go by the wayside and the northern BG remain the dominant trait. I figure at least an original stocker of the CNBG will be a novelty catch occasionally.

No personal experience...just stuff I read (it's on the internet, it has to be true right?). The coppernose grow faster their first-year, giving higher survival rates for their first season. This also means larger bluegill, sooner to feed bass. They also breed longer into fall, giving more offspring.

Sean

All interesting info. I wonder if the reason the CNBG grow faster and spawn later is because they live in an environment that gives them more "warm" water feeding/spawning days per year than the Northern BG get?

The reason I am asking all the questions is I am considering stocking a few adult single sex CNBG in my pond with my Northern BG the spring of 2017. That would give them all summer to find a mate and cross with the Northern BG. I could, hopefully, see if a CNBG x Northern BG cross and/or pure CNBG could survive one of our northern winters and, if they do, how they perform.

My understanding is that the faster growing of the CNBG is just for the first couple months of their life.

I too wondered about the longer breeding season...but took for granted that was taken into account.

Sean

Lusk says it and I've learned, over the years, to not disagree with the guy. I'll just say that I've seen no difference.

Thanks to everybody for their inputs!

Ok to summarize what I think I have learned is:

1) Northern BG can live and perform well in both the South and the North. CNBG are less tolerant to cold temperature than the Northern BG.

2) There is no significant advantage in size or growth rate between CNBG and Northern BG.

Conclusion is there is no advantage in trying to inject some CNBG genetics into my Northern BG and it might actually be a detriment from a temperature tolerance standpoint.

Guess I will forego stocking any CNBG

I'm not convinced 100% about the growth rates, but the differences in water temp could account for that.

BUT for us up here, unless proven otherwise, CNBG or CNBG hybrids are not the best choice. I'd still go with Northern Strain.

Now, who's to say that 2, 3, 5 years down the road there might be a hybrid that can withstand the cold???

Remember, this IS the place for cutting edge pond stuff!!

See red for notes.

Agree

Ewest, providing the temp tolerance issue could be resolved, what's your thoughts on hybrid vigor coming into play with a CNBG/BG cross?

So, if we assume optimum conditions for BOTH species, does one have the potential for greater growth (ultimate size) than the other? I have a hard time buying into that. If we strip away environmental benefits, quicker initial growth, and the potential of both strains to produce exceptional individuals (shooters), can we not arrive at an average, ultimate potential?

Is there a benefit of incorporating CNBG genetics into northern strain fish? We hear a lot about the benefits of CNBG, and I'm pretty confident that I've read everything here in the archives, as well as accumulated info from several different sources, but thus far most studies appear to be under pretty tightly controlled conditions. What about real-life ponds, in real life scenarios?

Are coppernose really the BG equivalent of the Golden Child, or is it more along the lines of what I believe, which is simply a case of geographic optimization?

And what about genetic enhancements? Overton CNBG, or Condello strain BG?

Tony:

My gut is telling me it's a case of geographic optimization like you said.

But, if a CNBG grows faster out of the gate, and the Northern grows longer, I wonder what could happen if there was a F1 cross if Hybrid Vigor also came into play?

has any one done a test in a southern climate by measuring growth of Standard and CN BG side by side.

Good question. And to ponder further, if hybrid vigor in the form of northern longevity combined with the coppernose quicker initial growth could be achieved, would it be limited to F1 fish only?

Comment has been: "2) There is no significant advantage in size or growth rate between CNBG and Northern BG. ""Not so - all species grow faster/do better under optimum conditions for that species - so CNBG do better /grow faster in the south and BG do better/grow faster up north.- ewest""

Is there research that shows the true Northern BG growth lags behind that of the CNBG if both are raised in the south with the same long growing season and optimum food? I would like to see that data. If there are studies on this topic they likely did not follow the growth of the study fish for more than 1-2 yrs or to a size of 8"-10".

IMO one of the main features that slows growth of good quality genetics of northern BG is the comparatively short growing season they have where growth is minimal during late Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar and most of April (less than 60F) which equates to about 6 months of little or no growth where ave daily water temps is 50F or below. (See more discussion of this in my post below). As I recall Lusk says the pure strain southern BG is not the same strain of BG as the pure strain Northern BG. Does anyone else remember reading this?? Cecil Baird and others that raise northern BG indoors in warm temperatures, in optimum conditions achieve excellent growth for these fish. This initial or rearly growth rate would, could, should rival growth of CNBG of the southern part of the US.

Why wouldn't a close to the same specie of fish grow faster (larger) if it was able (60F) to grow about twice as long during a year assuming food was not limiting? Has anyone actually done this using something close to scientific method? Test fish should should be an enhanced northern BG such as Condello strain and a proven quality CNBG. Arn't the largest individuals of pure strain BG and CNBG in Richmond Mill similar sized??? I have never personally seen them so I am just asking the question. Those that have fished Richmond Mill should be able to comment.

Next question would be....Are there BG x CNBG hybrids in Richmond Mill and how do they perform?

Light reading, no idea how accurate.

http://www.louisianasportsman.com/details.php?id=2579

Inquiring minds want to learn and know. Some southern PB Forum member should be capapble of conducting this study.

Sprkplug offers an interesting article. However, note the pure strain BG used in the studies were TX bluegill which Lusk considers inferior to Northern BG that came from quality stock such as Condello Strain BG or northern lakes known to grow high qualtiy large 10"-11" BG stock.

We're using the term "hybrid" pretty loosely here, I believe. Wouldn't the cross of a northern and CNBG be an intergrade?

I agree intergrade would be a better term for a cross of BG X CNBG i.e. two subspecies, varieties, or forms, whereas hybrid is a cross of two different species . Here is what the reptile 'people' think which probably agrees with most biologists.
http://www.hybridherps.com/forum/index.php?topic=60.0

Interesting. Would cross of a Southern YP with a Northern YP be an "intergrade" also?

I would think so.

Bill C. Lusk says that we have the same optimal growing days for LMB up here as in Texas, I wonder if the same applies to BG?

I agree, that the fish would not be a hybrid.

Sparkie, Thanks for the copy posted from Louisiana Sportsman. Looks to be some good info. As many of you know, I am very close to Caddo lake which is known for its brim fishing. Brim fishing guides are available on the lake. I have considered transplanting some native BG from Caddo to my pond with OTS cnbg but after seeing the info on E Texas BG, I think I may leave the pond like it is. We will usually fish for brim in Caddo starting in April or May. Catching BG, RES and Warmouth or Rock Bass, Goggle eye or whatever you want to call them. The Warmouth is the best eating for my taste and I fish for them different from the BG. The CNBG will outgrow in size and at a faster rate over the native BG if I understand the information provided here by the Louisiana Sportsman. And Esshup, I know Mr. Lusk is "The Man". But, my first thought of optimal growing days in Ind. verses Texas can't be right. Texas weather is very different even when comparison is made within Texas borders. N. W. Texas is very different from S.E. Texas or E. Texas. So if it's all about warmer water temps for more aggressive feeding behavior, then Optimal growing days can't be the same. Can it?

Tracy

Tracy, I'm also a big fan of fishing for Goggle Eyes. Of course that name means different things to different folks, depending upon geography. Around here, I see it applied to both Warmouth and Rockbass with equal fervor. If you're curious about what species you're catching, take a look at the anal fin. Warmouths have three rigid, sharp spines, while Rockbass will have six.

They both taste pretty good though.

esshup - "Bill C. Lusk says that we have the same optimal growing days for LMB up here (north central Indiana) as in Texas, I wonder if the same applies to BG?'

esshup - maybe you missunderstood what Lusk was saying?????

I strongly disagree as a 'doubting thomas' with Lusk on this. I would like to hear his rationale on this topic. How can there be same temperature degree growing days for fish and plants in Ohio as Texas? Water warms up faster in Spring in TX than in Ohio thus more days in TX with water above 55F-60F for fish growth in TX than Ohio. His comment does not make common sense to me.

In a nutshell and put into numbers, growing degree days (GDDs) accumulate anytime the average temperature for the day is more than 50 F. Commonly used terms for thermal time are Growing Degree Days (GDDs), Growing Degree Units (GDUs), or heat units (HUs).
Fish are cold blooded and their body temperature is closely related to the air/water temperature similar to plant growth. Body growth occurs in many types of plants and warm water fish when the water temperature reaches 50F. As the temperature increases generaly the growth increases until a upper optimum temperature is reached and then growth tends to slow or decrease depending on the species.

To calculate GDD see this example, if the high for the day was 70 F and the low was 40 F, the average temperature was 55, and so 5 GDDs accumulated. The GDDs for each day are added to the previous total. (When the average temperature for the day is below 50 F, it is ignored. It is not subtracted from the total.)

For those who prefer formulas, it looks like this:
Max Temp. + Min. Temp. / 2 minus 50F = Daily GDD
In my experience with water temperature the average daily temperature is often close to the water temperature.

It stands to my reasoning that when an area or region has more GGDs or time when average temps are above 50F, this will equate to more days per year when that organism (bass, BG, many other fish and plants) will be actively absorbing nutrition and growing.

As an example the GDDs for Dallas TX area are normally around 5986 GDDs per year that bass can have adequate temperature (50F+) for growth. However in Northwest OH the GDDs are around 2910 GDDs /yr when bass growth could occur in Ave. air/water temp of 50F+. Dallas area has slightly over twice the GDDs than those of NW OH. I do not understand how Lusk thinks two similar LMbass each with unlimited food and in similar conditions will have the same optimal growing days when one has twice the GDDs as the other that has one half the GDDs. What am I missing here?

FYI Reference Reading:
http://agron-www.agron.iastate.edu/Courses/agron212/Calculations/GDD.htm

GIS Interactive GDDsMaps to see what the normal and current GDDs are for your area of the country.
http://pnwpest.org/US/
When choosing a map and location make sure you choose the map set that has the proper base temperature or lower temperature threshold. For fish growth use the 50F lower temp threshold map choice not the 32F nor 41F maps.

Can the temperature get too warm for fish to actively feed and,if so, should those day's GDD numbers be subtracted from the total?

Yes temperature can get too warm for active 'feeding'- growth for both plants and animals depending on the adaptation of each specie. Trout are a good example of this feature. Most warm water fish have a relatively high upper active temperature tolerance or limit. Rarely do ponds with some depth and good habitat diversity (cool water refuge) reach those maximums throughout the entire water column for most warm water fish. Continually aerated ponds will have fewer cool water refuge areas. If one is keenly interested in this topic, they can do some homework to learn more about how to adjust the GDD for temperatures that are above the optimum for the specie they are interested in learning more about. This concept or practice is commonly performed for field corn.

The graph and description in the link above and repeated here briefly explain this phenomonon.
http://agron-www.agron.iastate.edu/Courses/agron212/Calculations/GDD.htm

Bill C, I think the key to Bob's comment is "optimal" growing days. I think he's meaning when the water temp is between "X" degrees and "X" degrees. Neither too hot nor too cold.

But like you, I have a hard time believing it.

"Trust but verify" and I haven't been able to verify it yet.

Numerous members here and others have documented the good (measureable) fish growth can occur in water temperatures several degrees upto 10F degrees above and below those commonly listed as optimal growth temperature range. Ewest might be able to locate some literature that documents growth for one or several species above & below optimal observed growth temps? Bluegill will start actively feeding at 41F (thus can't one assume noticeable growth occurs at 55F temperature? Bluegill in Ontario were reported to feed consistently at 46F-50F. I will do a little searching on this topic in my literature.

Bluegill are reported to have optimum growth at 86F with still very good growth at 77F to 82F. Lowest conversion efficiency was at 94F when fish were tested at 77-94F. Complete digestion of food in stomachs occurred in 18hrs at 64F. Bluegills were found to feed under the ice at 0.8% of the body mass. Growth at these 39F was not reported.

As best as I can determine from my readings, most of the annual growth for northern BG occurs starting and ending at mid 60F. Interestingly many recommendations for beginning feeding pellet to BG is 60F. Interestingly one report mentioned that juvenile BG in a Southern MI pond grew through the winter adding 20% in length and 50% in mass.

I will find some info on this .

BG optimum growth and optimum feeding temps are a little different . That is max feeding is at a different temp than max growth rate .

ewest - Parts of this topic would be good as one of your Science & The Cutting Edge articles in PBoss mag.