Pond Boss
Posted By: Russ Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 07/06/12 10:05 PM
I was going to add this to my previous post (Cage to Cage transfer: crappie 4-25-12) but thought it might benefit others as a new topic.

April 7 - Picked up 25 black crappie (BCP) fingerlings from the hatchery

April 18 - BCP started taking freeze dried mealworms.

April 18 - May 19 - started tossing in pellets, Aquamax 5D05, but they were not interested. Started thinking that perhaps BCP are sight/texture feeders and decided to try and make the pellets look like mealworms. By May 19th, the BCP were feeding aggressively on "mealworm" pellets. Here is how I make mealworm pellets.

After referencing a previous PondBoss article on artificial feeds and feeding, I settled on using a mixture of 20 grams of pellets with 13 grams of water. The pellets and water are placed in a small plastic bottle and shaken for 1-2 minutes. The pellet/gravy mixture is then poured out onto a plate, leveled out and left to sit for 2 hours so the pellets can absorb all the water.
After 2 hours I make a pellet pie crust by placing a plastic sandwich bag over the mixture and rolling it out with a wooden rolling pin. The pellet crust is maybe 1/16" thick.
Next I take a dough/pastry scraper and slice the crust into 1/8" wide by 1/2 to 3/4" long strips....my mealworm pellets. The whole rolling/cutting process takes less than 10 minutes.

Due to my work schedule, the fish get one feeding per day during the week. On weekends, I double up.

July 4th - transferred the BCP to a new cage. Sampled 6 fish.
Average weight 39 grams. Length 5-6". I had one runt in the net, 2-2.5 inches. No mortality from the original 25 !
With some fish weights in hand I sat down to figure out how I'm doing on my feed amount. Aquamax does not list a feed chart for black crappie so I deferred to the one for yellow perch. Based on this, my calculations show that I need to increase my daily weekday rate from 20 to ~30 grams/day.
For those folks that read this, does anyone know if a relative weight table exists for BCP ?


As this is my first attempt at cage raising BCP on pellets, I'm open to all comments/advice.

Thanks

- Russ

** mental note to self. Pick up another pastry scraper and rolling pin before making this years holiday pies.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 07/06/12 10:11 PM
Good job Russ... Hopefully they'll completely revert to a minimum of hydrated pellets. I bet if you starve them for a bit, they'll be more likely to do the switch. Keep us posted on your progress!
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 07/07/12 12:56 AM
Russ,

That sounds like a great idea. We have some Relative Weight Charts here in the archives. Chart 1 of 3 has black crappie. Unfortunately, I don't think it will do you any good for a little while. The charts are more for fish that people would be catching and not releasing.

Anyway, please keep us informed. I really like the approach. I've tried a number of different kinds of fish in cages that just weren't interested in pellets.

Regards,
Ken
Posted By: keith_rowan Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 07/07/12 07:48 PM
i love crappie, and considered them for my aquaponics setup, but everything i found said they were kind of hard to get on pellets..
good to see someone trying!
i'll be looking for updates, thanks!
Believe it or not I knew a couple that ran a trout farm in Wisconsin that brought some in and threw pellets at them along with trout in another tank. They said they got them to feed on pellets as good as the trout.

I got a few hundred of them (3 to 4 inches) but unfortunately most of them died later due to fungal issues. They were hauled in the same tanks as 1 to 2 lb. trout (probably got all beat up by the trout slushing around), and one of the trout club people that helped scoop them out did a dumb amateur thing: He filled a net with them crushing and injuring most of them. It was no wonder they had fungal issues.

I did have some feeding in a cage though.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 07/08/12 03:10 AM
Good information for training finicky fish. Try softening some pellets, finger rolling some of them to squeeze out air and they will sink esp if pellet is oval shaped. Fish will likely take them since flavor and texture are similar. Once they are taking sinking pellets they will quickly rise to floating pellets. Keep us updated.
Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 07/09/12 07:22 PM
Thanks for the chart info Cat!

Bill, following your response my next step will be to eliminate the freeze dried mealworms entirely while introducing moistened pellets to the mix, a little at a time.

A comment about the mealworm recipe noted above. Following that recipe results in the floating pellets changing to sinkers. With both my pond water (especially during the a.m. feeding before sun up)and the pellets being dark in color, I cannot tell how much of the feed is consumed once it sinks 8-10" below the surface. I've tried letting the mealworm pellets dry for a day but they still sink. To limit wasted feed, I now use a 10' piece of 3/4" PVC pipe, capped at one end. I load the tube with feed and like a cement mixer, rotate the PVC pipe while dropping a few bits of feed at a time.

Lastly, Keith I will post updates to this thread but following the creed of "reduce stress" and Cecil's mention of his netting disaster I will probably not have another update till September, when I anticipate moving the crappie to a clean cage.

Thanks

- Russ
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 07/10/12 12:35 AM
Russ - hopefully you can post when you see the crappie taking some sort of pellets from the surface.
Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/01/12 08:29 PM
An update. The first week of October I did a cage swap and sampled the black crappies. Based on a total count, the initial stocking was 32 fingerlings (3"-4"), not the 25 I thought. To date, I have not seen any dead fish, either floaters or ones that died and sank to the bottom of the cage.

During the cage swap, I culled any fish under 6" which totaled 17. Of the 15 keepers, I sampled 5 fish. Average weight 75 grams (58, 73, 89, 68 and 89). Average length 7", nothing over 7.25". Of the 17 that were culled, most averaged 5-6" with a few runts still 3-4".

As stated in the initial post, I started feeding with Aquamax 5D05 pellets, first as "mealworm" pellets, switching to Aquamax whole pellets, 5D06, in late August. The reason for the switch in pellet size was twofold. (1) My supplier was out of 5D05 and (2) at that point in time I was down to ~7 lbs of the 5D05 but wanted to save it for my RBT this Fall. From this and previous cage raising trials involving YP, BG and RBT, I've decided that any future attempts at cage raising fish (starting with fingerlings) will be done using Aquamax 5D04 pellets for the simple reason that moistened small pellets can be formed into larger pellets as the fish grow. For the few fish I raise, I don't come close to using 50lbs of feed / growing season.

Russ
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/02/12 01:20 AM
Russ - Interesting information about cage rasing some crappie. Very good job of getting all 32 to survive all summer. I think the runts maybe survied on zooplankton and did not eat pellets??.
Bill,

I respectfully disagree that pinching the pellets removes air which makes them sink. IMHO pinching them makes them more dense and therefore more likely to sink.

Not a big deal but just thought I'd mention it.

And don't get upset. You're still Dr. Perca!
Well it'd be more dense because te air is removed wouldn't it lol
Posted By: ewest Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/02/12 01:42 AM
Guys one option is moist pellets. Last I checked ( a while back) you could get BioDiet that was moist pellets with good qualities for predator fish. LMB have been shown to do well on it. I think it may be trout food.
Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/02/12 08:35 PM
I'd be interested to hear opinions on this question.

Focusing solely on BCP, would feeding a smaller pellet (the 5D04 vs. 5D05) have helped the runts achieve better growth?

I ventured into this experiment with limited expectations, expecting high mortality with few to none accepting pellets. Looking back now I wonder if feeding a smaller pellet might of increased my chances at all of the fish eventually accepting artificial feed.

BTW, the remaining crappies are still taking pellets.

- Russ
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/02/12 09:19 PM
I have used biodiet to pellet train and feed fish. It is expensive and shipping is about as much as the pellets. I found that for small quantities softening AquaMax or other high protein food works as good as biodiet. A second benefit of softening pellets is one can make all sizes of larger pellets from small pellets which you cannot do with Biodiet. Biggest negative to softening pellets is the are not stable for very long and will mold in several days.

Cecil says:"" I respectfully disagree that pinching the pellets removes air which makes them sink. IMHO pinching them makes them more dense and therefore more likely to sink. Not a big deal but just thought I'd mention it. And don't get upset. You're still Dr. Perca!""

Okay CB1 you "raised the hair on the back of my neck". I disagree that pinching soft pellets does not remove air from the pellets. I say this because the "pellet people" tell me that the extrusion process adds air to the pellets which makes them float. I agree with bgkiller that pinching the soft pellets makes them more dense because it pushes out the air from the pellet. CB1 has your wife been picking on you again which is why you are picking on me today?
My wife never picks on me Bill. I was just having a healthy disagreement with you on a scientific level. When I bring things up like this it's more for discussion.

Makes sense air is added to the pellets during the extrusion process but I'm skeptical a pinch would remove it.
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/02/12 10:12 PM
As I re-read this topic, I asked myself "why crappie in small ponds?"

In the springtime, in a big public lake, I love catching several meals worth of crappies. But, in my ponds, I really have to question this.

Crappie are sure fun to catch. But, even at 12-14 inches, they seem to have less edible flesh compared to 9-inch bluegill or redear sunfish. The bluegill and RES are just as fiesty when catching them. When cooking any of the three, I can't tell the difference -- whether fried, broiled, baked ...

Maybe it is just my old age and lack of sensory perception.

I really wish I didn't have them in my one pond that has them. They just don't add anything that I can confirm. Worst, I'm afraid they attack my early spawning of desireable species.

Just my crazy old ideas.

Ken

One more thought. Each time I pick up fish, it seems there are people buying crappie for their ponds. These crappie are nearly always less than 3-inches, and are going into mature ponds with mature bass. These people spend a forutune on the crappie. Most of these crappie are probably eaten within a few hours of being stocked.

Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/03/12 02:09 AM
CB1 - If your wife doesn't pick on you IMO she should once in awhile so you wouldn't be so contankerous here - LOL LOL. Yes I know your comments were for discussion. If you notice closely when one rolls or pinches the pellets, they get very slighly smaller. I assmue that compaction process has to squeeze out something and it is likely very small amount of air. What else would it be if the pellet or anything else is compacted? Do you think the pellets absorb a tiny amount of air as they swell when they are soaking??

Ken- I agree with your thoughtful crappie pond stocking comments in all ways. Especially in light of the risk that crappie pose to a small pond.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
CB1 - If your wife doesn't pick on you IMO she should once in awhile so you wouldn't be so contankerous here - LOL LOL.


Not being "contankerous" [sic] Bill. I'm sorry it appeared that way. blush I would have just P.M'd you my thoughts but ya don't read the P.M's very often! grin And I think this is something that would be interesting to debate.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Yes I know your comments were for discussion. If you notice closely when one rolls or pinches the pellets, they get very slighly smaller.


Yes, which makes them denser! grin You're increasing the mass per volume by squeezing it. You can easily take something that has a specific gravity lower than water, and by compressing it enough you can make it have a higher specific gravity than water, therefore you can make it sink.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I assmue that compaction process has to squeeze out something and it is likely very small amount of air.


Perhaps but my opinion is making the pellet denser has more of an effect.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
What else would it be if the pellet or anything else is compacted?


See above response.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Do you think the pellets absorb a tiny amount of air as they swell when they are soaking??


My WAG would be some but not a significant amount as oxygen/air would only be in ppm's in water at the most.




Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/04/12 12:56 AM
CB1 'contankerous' was the first adjective that came to mind for some of your historical 'debateful' comments on the forum. We should take no offense or defense. I am now reading PMs on a regular basis so you can use that as communication. I still want to know what you think leaves the hydrated pellet as it is squeezed to make it more dense. Something has to happen internally during compaction to allow it to sink. On close examination, sinking pellets are quite dense compared to floating pellets. I think the pressure used during pellet extrusion makes a difference in how much air is in the pellet. From Wikipedia: Adjusting parameters such as temperature and pressure enables the manufacturers to make pellets that suit different fish farming methods, for example feeds that float or sink slowly and feeds suited to recirculation systems."
As I said Bill I believe squeezing the pellet makes it more dense. Not sure why something has to "leave" the pellet.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/04/12 01:55 AM
Try this definition for dense: tightly packed so close together that there is not much space of room or open space. The question becomes what is in the open spaces of a pellet to allow for compaction / squeezing? As I understand pellet manufacture, the extruder compresses the wet ingredients and uses pressure to force it through holes or tubes and when the pellets leave the extruder they expand. I assume when they expand they absorb air which makes them float. I will try to check if this is correct. I have looked at some AM600 under the microscope when I was having trouble with a batch of pellets falling apart more than usual and the pellets had lots of tiny air spaces in them. Dr Mark Griffin said plant was having extruder problems and they were getting too much air into the pellets. I will see if I can find those pictures and send you one.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
As I said Bill I believe squeezing the pellet makes it more dense. Not sure why something has to "leave" the pellet.


I would think if your squeezing something that is soft and pourus anything inside the object (in this case air) would be removed..
Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
As I said Bill I believe squeezing the pellet makes it more dense. Not sure why something has to "leave" the pellet.


I would think if your squeezing something that is soft and pourus anything inside the object (in this case air) would be removed..


I don't discount that possibility, just skeptical.

If anyone has some hydrated pellets perhaps squeezing them under water will tell us if any or much trapped air escapes? That is, one would see air bubbles rising to the surface of the water?
Posted By: JKB Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/04/12 01:55 PM
2.2.3 Pelleting and extrusion

Pelleting, through compression, produces a dense pellet that sinks rapidly in water. Extrusion is a process through which the feed material is moistened, precooked, expanded, extruded and dried, producing a low-density feed particle which floats in water. Pelleting is less expensive and generally costs 10 to 12 percent less than extruded fish feeds. However, extruded or floating feeds are very popular with catfish farmers.

Pelleting involves the use of moisture, heat, and pressure to agglomerate ingredients into larger homogenous particles. Steam or hot water added to the ground feed mixture (mash) during pelleting gelatinizes starch, which aids in binding ingredients. Generally, an amount of steam is added to the mash to increase its moisture content to approximately 16 percent and temperature to about 85 C before passing through the pellet die; however, ingredient composition will influence these conditions. The moisture must be removed by proper cooling and ventilation immediately after the pellets leave the pelleting apparatus.

Pellet quality refers to resistance to crumbling and water stability. The amounts of fat, fibre, or starch in the formula can influence quality of the pelleted feed. Some ingredients, because of chemical or physical properties, do not have desirable pelleting quality and can be used only in limited quantity in pelleted feeds.

Additives that serve primarily as pelleting aids are frequently used in fish feed formulas to reduce fines and increase water stability, although research in fish feed technology has demonstrated that high-quality fish feeds can be made without binding materials by following good pelleting procedures. However, use of compounds such as hemicellulose and cellulose derivatives, lignosulphonates, bentonites, and others does allow the processor greater variation in ingredient selection and processing conditions to produce pellets of satisfactory quality.

Extrusion requires higher levels of moisture, heat, and pressure than pelleting. Usually, the mixture of finely ground ingredients is conditioned with steam or water and may be precooked before entering the extruder. The mash, which contains around 25 percent moisture, is compacted and heated to 135 to 175 C under high pressure. As the material is squeezed through die holes at the end of the extruder barrel, part of the water in the superheated dough immediately vaporizes and causes expansion. The low-density extruded particles contain more water than pellets and require more drying. Heat-sensitive vitamins are usually added topically after extrusion and drying. Extruded feeds are more firmly bound due to the almost complete gelatinization of the starch and result in less fines than pellets.

Extruded or expanded fish feeds have two definite advantages over pelleted feeds: the particles float and are more resistant to disintegration in water, and a floating feed allows the fish culturist to observe the condition of the fish and the amount of food consumed. A large percentage of the catfish farmers in the United States use expanded feeds.


Source: FAO

Pretty sure ya got air in floating feed's. If it is being expanded, then the water is vaporized out, something has to take it's place.

Density


Well I didn't really think about this too much but if your squeezing a hydrated pellet you'd be squeezing out the added moisture which had taken the place of air..
Posted By: esshup Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/04/12 04:26 PM
I'm in Cody's camp on this one!
Posted By: JKB Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/04/12 04:59 PM
Originally Posted By: esshup
I'm in Cody's camp on this one!


YEP!
Posted By: Rainman Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/04/12 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
CB1 - If your wife doesn't pick on you IMO she should once in awhile so you wouldn't be so contankerous here - LOL LOL.


Not being "contankerous" [sic] Bill. I'm sorry it appeared that way. blush I would have just P.M'd you my thoughts but ya don't read the P.M's very often! grin And I think this is something that would be interesting to debate.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Yes I know your comments were for discussion. If you notice closely when one rolls or pinches the pellets, they get very slighly smaller.



Yes, which makes them denser! grin You're increasing the mass per volume by squeezing it. You can easily take something that has a specific gravity lower than water, and by compressing it enough you can make it have a higher specific gravity than water, therefore you can make it sink.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I assmue that compaction process has to squeeze out something and it is likely very small amount of air.


Perhaps but my opinion is making the pellet denser has more of an effect.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
What else would it be if the pellet or anything else is compacted?


See above response.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Do you think the pellets absorb a tiny amount of air as they swell when they are soaking??


My WAG would be some but not a significant amount as oxygen/air would only be in ppm's in water at the most.






LMAO...What, if not air, is between the atomic mass composition in a stinkin fish pellet??? Is it plasma, miniature space aliens in tinfoil hats...perhaps it is trapped macrophyte farts??...


laugh laugh laugh
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/04/12 09:13 PM
I am going with trapped macrophyte farts personally...
Originally Posted By: esshup
I'm in Cody's camp on this one!


You butt kisser! grin
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: esshup
I'm in Cody's camp on this one!


YEP!


Butt kisser number 2! grin
Originally Posted By: Rainman
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
CB1 - If your wife doesn't pick on you IMO she should once in awhile so you wouldn't be so contankerous here - LOL LOL.


Not being "contankerous" [sic] Bill. I'm sorry it appeared that way. blush I would have just P.M'd you my thoughts but ya don't read the P.M's very often! grin And I think this is something that would be interesting to debate.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Yes I know your comments were for discussion. If you notice closely when one rolls or pinches the pellets, they get very slighly smaller.



Yes, which makes them denser! grin You're increasing the mass per volume by squeezing it. You can easily take something that has a specific gravity lower than water, and by compressing it enough you can make it have a higher specific gravity than water, therefore you can make it sink.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I assmue that compaction process has to squeeze out something and it is likely very small amount of air.


Perhaps but my opinion is making the pellet denser has more of an effect.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
What else would it be if the pellet or anything else is compacted?


See above response.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Do you think the pellets absorb a tiny amount of air as they swell when they are soaking??


My WAG would be some but not a significant amount as oxygen/air would only be in ppm's in water at the most.






LMAO...What, if not air, is between the atomic mass composition in a stinkin fish pellet??? Is it plasma, miniature space aliens in tinfoil hats...perhaps it is trapped macrophyte farts??...


laugh laugh laugh


Don't apply for any grad student positions soon Rex. wink
Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I am going with trapped macrophyte farts personally...


Deep science here folks. Deeeeeeeep! smirk
Posted By: esshup Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/04/12 11:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: esshup
I'm in Cody's camp on this one!


You butt kisser! grin


There's no arguing with someone who's right!

laugh
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 12:02 AM
Some will argue a point even if they are not correct. I've done that. Botany tells me macrophyte farts probably contain oxygen and not methane.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Some will argue a point even if they are not correct. I've done that.


And you're doing it again! grin Just because you have folks that agree with you doesn't make it right. There were plenty of people that agreed the earth was flat once too! wink

There needs to be a scientific experiment to settle this!
Posted By: Bing Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 12:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
There were plenty of people that agreed the earth was flat once too! wink

There needs to be a scientific experiment to settle this!


Cecil I do not think we a scientific experiment to settle this, I have been up in an airplane and the earth was definitely curved.
Posted By: Rainman Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 12:54 AM
Question to be answered for experiment along with basic parameters...considering the total solid mass shall remain unchanged when "pinching to compact" increases the "density" of a Macrophytes fart laden pellet, what must be displaced that would cause reduced buoyancy in the tested pellet?....for the purposes of reducing the cabin fever induced insanity in this thread, all gasses discovered shall be called "air".
Wow biggest hijack I have witnessed on PB smile
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 01:47 AM
Yes - I never thought I would be a part of hijacking a PB topic. Russ - sorry for the diversion and rant that CB1 and I created. I guess "It all depends". I doubt that this will qualify for the "Archives" section - ROTFLOL.
I found the close up picture of some AM600 pellets. I need to find someone who will post it as evidence for my position.
Posted By: Rainman Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 02:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
ROTFLOL.
I found the close up picture of some AM600 pellets. I need to find someone who will post it as evidence for my position.


And...the hijack continues....I'm sorry also Russ!!
Posted By: esshup Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 03:21 AM
Bill:

Send me the pics and I'll post them. I'm not afraid of Cecil! wink grin
Posted By: JKB Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 04:25 AM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: esshup
I'm in Cody's camp on this one!


YEP!


Butt kisser number 2! grin


I also like my corn flakes soggy, once the AIR is displaced by the milk laugh grin

What's your take on popcorn?

I'll give you those noodles that expand a hundred times or so when you toss them in oil. That's a different state of matter altogether laugh

What's up with puffed rice any way?

It's in the manufacturing process. If I use steam to expand something (heat water, it expands, cool, it contracts), and use binders to keep it in form for the amount of expansion I want, then vaporize said moisture to levels I want, without changing expanded size, there will be nothing but air in the void's where there once was liquid.

Clear as mud, eh! wink
Posted By: esshup Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 03:38 PM
From Bill:
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Yes - I never thought I would be a part of hijacking a PB topic. Russ - sorry for the diversion and rant that CB1 and I created. I guess "It all depends". I doubt that this will qualify for the "Archives" section - ROTFLOL.
I found the close up picture of some AM600 pellets. I need to find someone who will post it as evidence for my position.


Sorry Russ. blush I don't know why Bill had to make big federal case out of this. grin

So a thread hijack is uncommon on this site. Really? grin
Originally Posted By: esshup
From Bill:


Are you kidding me Bill?

You post pictures of sausage patties and expect me to capitulate?

Huh? laugh
Posted By: wenonah31 Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 09:38 PM
I thought they were meatballs.
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 09:52 PM
This getting really good. Anybody want to place odds on Cecil vs. Cody -- or vice versa?

As a long time member of Pond Boss, and as a moderator, I'd usually intervene to stop this.

But, I consider both Cecil and Bill as really good, and equal, friends. Cecile and Cody are also good friends. This may be the best PB discussion between good friends that we've ever had.

Now, as for the best breakfast sausage patties without air pockets, I think we need a cookoff. We could do it at my place, where we've done a few good Pond Boss cookings. Maybe Sunil would host us at his pond -- where we've had some similar cookings there (we just didn't get to serve the snapping turtle being preserved in Sunil's outhouse!)

This is serious. We need some solid evidence.

We need to do it during good weather so that Rex (Rainman) doesn't need multiple monster-size wreckers and a big industrial helicopter to get him back to the main road.

Go for the finish!
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 10:15 PM
Things in that picture do look like meat patties. I can'f fool you guys. That is probably why the fish like them so well. The ones on the bottom look as if they have a glaze on them which is maybe stuff they spray on the pellets after they are extruded. I've read that manufacturers will spray heat sensitive oils and vitamins on the pellets after they come out of the extruder. Not sure if Purina does this to the AM pellets.

Now to put this discussion to rest, I received this from Bob Wucher at Purina Mills, District Manager, Livestock & Pet Specialist, who attended the PBoss V conference: ""They are filled with air but are not air tight so water will be absorbed into the pellet over time. As the water displaces the air they do become less buoyant and start to sink. Hope this helps."" Thanks a lot Bob, it did help my argument in the discussion. I hope my friend Cecil is not mad at me for winning this debate. cry grin

Posted By: JKB Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/05/12 10:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody

"They are filled with air but are not air tight so water will be absorbed into the pellet over time. As the water displaces the air they do become less buoyant and start to sink. Hope this helps."


I think I mentioned that earlier, but nooooobody listens laugh

Wish I knew about this betting thing Ken mentioned. Would have been easy cash laugh
Posted By: hang_loose Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 05:07 AM
I love sausage gravy and biscuits but you can't beat a good crappie dinner wink.
Originally Posted By: catmandoo
This getting really good. Anybody want to place odds on Cecil vs. Cody -- or vice versa?

As a long time member of Pond Boss, and as a moderator, I'd usually intervene to stop this.

But, I consider both Cecil and Bill as really good, and equal, friends. Cecile and Cody are also good friends. This may be the best PB discussion between good friends that we've ever had.





Yep we're friends so nothing serious here. But who the hell is Cecile? That's a girl's name! grin
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I hope my friend Cecil is not mad at me for winning this debate. cry grin



Not mad whatsoever Bill, but your expert has actually proven my point. I do appreciate the pictures although they look like sausage patties to me and prove nothing. grin


Originally Posted By: Bill Cody


Now to put this discussion to rest, I received this from Bob Wucher at Purina Mills, District Manager, Livestock & Pet Specialist, who attended the PBoss V conference: ""They are filled with air but are not air tight so water will be absorbed into the pellet over time. As the water displaces the air they do become less buoyant and start to sink. Hope this helps."" Thanks a lot Bob, it did help my argument in the discussion. I hope my friend Cecil is not mad at me for winning this debate. cry grin





Quote:
As the water displaces the air they do become less buoyant and start to sink.


That's not my experience Bill. Is it yours? For me most of the hydrated pellets float until you squeeze them. Apparently Bill Wucher hadn't hydrated any pellets like we do?

Furthermore IF the air is displaced by the water, when they are hydrated, that makes your argument that squeezing the pellet pushes the air out -- and makes them sink -- moot doesn't it?


Nothing settled here IMHO. Just because there is air in the pellet (as you say) does not mean that compressing it doesn't make it denser causing it to sink -- along with the added moisture.

Try holding hydrated pellets underwater, squeezing them and see if you get any air bubbles coming out. Then get back to me.
Posted By: Tums Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 02:12 PM
There has been alot of displaced air in this thread.
wink
Originally Posted By: Tums
There has been alot of displaced air in this thread.
wink


This is nothing and there should be no reason we can't keep this civil. Have you ever observed scientists with big egos debate a theory? shocked Now that's something to see! grin

Normally if someone comes up with a revolutionary idea, or disagrees with the standard theory of the day, all hell breaks lose. Sometimes after a few years the new theory is accepted.

It's human nature to get defensive if someone challenges your beliefs as wrong. grin

I remember not long ago when a researcher produced a paper that said gastric ulcers were not caused by stress, but by certain kinds of bacteria. The medical profession baulked at it but it's accepted a fact now.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 02:52 PM
Squeezing a soft pellet under water would not release enough air under water to actually see it come out of the pellet because the air amount is very small. Let's try squeezing lots of pellets under water and see if air is visable.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 03:15 PM
Excellent....now I can add another subject to my list of PondBoss unmentionables:

1) Religion
2) Politics
3) Global warming
4) Georgia Giants
5) Why do pinched feed pellets sink?

With each passing day I grow more secure in the knowledge that I am less likely to commit a faux pas here at PB by delving into forbidden territory........keep em' comin'

And just for the record, I think you're both driving to the same destination, you're just taking two different routes......
Posted By: keith_rowan Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 03:38 PM
i actually did squeeze pellets under water in my aquaponic system when i was feed training the yp and bg.. i did see a couple bubbles come out of the mix,, but then again, that could have been on my fingers trapped in voids between the pellets
Posted By: Tums Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 04:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: Tums
There has been alot of displaced air in this thread.
wink

This is nothing and there should be no reason we can't keep this civil. Have you ever observed scientists with big egos debate a theory? shocked Now that's something to see! grin

I have no problem with it and you 2 have done well on keeping things civil. I have been in several situations with scientists (and engineers) with their egos. You are correct on that is something to see. I am the one that sometimes reminds them of the principle of Occam's Razor.
Posted By: Ghostown Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 05:03 PM
Perhaps one could take the "batter" of pellets mixed with water and whip it in a mixer until reintegrated with air (or making the pellets less dense?) dry it in whatever shape you want. Adding egg white or a little yeast while mixing would allow the mixture to be less dense (or inclusive of more gasses). Either way I'm thinkin they will float. Anybody heard of 5 lb green sunfish crosses? Called the Kansas Kolossus...think I'm gonna get some...comes with free popcorn too...
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 05:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Ghostown
Perhaps one could take the "batter" of pellets mixed with water and whip it in a mixer until reintegrated with air (or making the pellets less dense?) dry it in whatever shape you want. Adding egg white or a little yeast while mixing would allow the mixture to be less dense (or inclusive of more gasses). Either way I'm thinkin they will float. Anybody heard of 5 lb green sunfish crosses? Called the Kansas Kolossus...think I'm gonna get some...comes with free popcorn too...


Heck yeah. Fire up the griddle, grab the butter and maple syrup...nothing like a big stack of Aquacakes.... or flapmax....

I'm not familiar with the Kolossus, but I'm working on a Hoosier Humongosaur..... laugh
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 05:11 PM
It seems this thread will not die.
I thought this was a joke and gave up on it seems pretty straight forward to me..
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
It seems this thread will not die.


Nope. He He! smirk cool
Originally Posted By: Ghostown
Perhaps one could take the "batter" of pellets mixed with water and whip it in a mixer until reintegrated with air (or making the pellets less dense?) dry it in whatever shape you want. Adding egg white or a little yeast while mixing would allow the mixture to be less dense (or inclusive of more gasses). Either way I'm thinkin they will float. Anybody heard of 5 lb green sunfish crosses? Called the Kansas Kolossus...think I'm gonna get some...comes with free popcorn too...


Hey you know you're hijacking the original topic of this thread right?

I would never do such a thing. whistle
Originally Posted By: keith_rowan
i actually did squeeze pellets under water in my aquaponic system when i was feed training the yp and bg.. i did see a couple bubbles come out of the mix,, but then again, that could have been on my fingers trapped in voids between the pellets


Sssssh!
Originally Posted By: Tums
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: Tums
There has been alot of displaced air in this thread.
wink

This is nothing and there should be no reason we can't keep this civil. Have you ever observed scientists with big egos debate a theory? shocked Now that's something to see! grin

I have no problem with it and you 2 have done well on keeping things civil. I have been in several situations with scientists (and engineers) with their egos. You are correct on that is something to see. I am the one that sometimes reminds them of the principle of Occam's Razor.


I love Occam's Razor! A principal I live by. That and I live by the KISS principal!
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Squeezing a soft pellet under water would not release enough air under water to actually see it come out of the pellet because the air amount is very small.


Soooooo what you're saying is there isn't a significant amount of air to make it sink after you pinch it... wink

Wow I didn't think you'd come around 180 degrees like this so fast Bill but I'm grateful.

Case closed! cool
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 05:28 PM
I've never met a KISS principal, but I had a guidance counselor once that looked a lot like Angus Young of AC/DC.....

Is that too obscure for this crowd??
That funny I had a math teacher who looked like The lead singer of twisted sister Dee Snider, Bad part is the teacher was Female not good..
I was a lead singer of a garage band in college. Long hair and all too! Is that on topic enough?
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
I was a lead singer of a garage band in college. Long hair and all too! Is that on topic enough?


Photos?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 07:14 PM
Back to the MAIN hijacked topic: (for you other wannabe hijackers get your own topic to hijack.)
CB1 says ""Soooooo what you're saying is there isn't a significant amount of air to make it sink after you pinch it..."

No it is not a 180 degree change in position. Stop twisting my words. What I am saying is - there is enough air in the pellet to make it float, but not enough air for you to see it bubble out of the soft pellet as it is squeezed. There is only a miniscule amount of air in each extruded pellet and very likely not enough air volume to see it released as bubles with your old bifocal needing eyes.

Ok - for all you doubtors, I took 6 hydrated pellets and lightly formed them together to minimize air between each of the 6 pellets. I squeezed the enlarged pellet under water. Low and behold at least 5 or 6 small bubbles came out of the larger pellet. Now I suppose you want to see the video as proof.
Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 08:18 PM
I'm not exactly sure (and quite frankly scared) what direction this post will take next so I'm going to post quickly and retreat.

Referring back to Cat's post, my intent is to never release the crappie into my small 0.13 acre pond. The whole experiment was to see whether or not I could get black crappie to accept pellets. In my case that answer is yes. Your comment about flesh mass of BG vs BCP is interesting.

I'd also like to address a note I received concerning feed. From the date that I introduced pellets to the last week of October I figure that I used 16-17 lbs of feed.

With cooler temps of Fall and Winter moving in, I'm shifting my focus from BCP to the RBT I picked up from the hatchery yesterday. Barring any significant changes, I will update this post after ice out next spring.

I now return you to your (ir)regularly scheduled debate.

For all those that have commented, thank you !

- Russ
Posted By: Tums Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 08:33 PM
Russ
Do you think the BCP would be able to be Pellet trained in open water (without cage)?
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody


Ok - for all you doubtors, I took 6 hydrated pellets and lightly formed them together to minimize air between each of the 6 pellets. I squeezed the enlarged pellet under water. Low and behold at least 5 or 6 small bubbles came out of the larger pellet. Now I suppose you want to see the video as proof.


No video as proof needed. I believe you. Perhaps you are right that the mechanism that causes the pellet to sink is removing the air.
Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 08:45 PM
Tums -

Good question but unfortunately my experience (very little experience I'll add) is limited to caged BCP. I will defer to others with more background in this area however my opinion is that given open waters and a natural food menu, I suspect BCP would be difficult to pellet train.

- Russ
Originally Posted By: Russ
I'm not exactly sure (and quite frankly scared) what direction this post will take next so I'm going to post quickly and retreat.

Referring back to Cat's post, my intent is to never release the crappie into my small 0.13 acre pond. The whole experiment was to see whether or not I could get black crappie to accept pellets. In my case that answer is yes. Your comment about flesh mass of BG vs BCP is interesting.

I'd also like to address a note I received concerning feed. From the date that I introduced pellets to the last week of October I figure that I used 16-17 lbs of feed.

With cooler temps of Fall and Winter moving in, I'm shifting my focus from BCP to the RBT I picked up from the hatchery yesterday. Barring any significant changes, I will update this post after ice out next spring.

I now return you to your (ir)regularly scheduled debate.

For all those that have commented, thank you !

- Russ


Russ,

I really am sorry I hijacked your thread. I didn't think it would cause the raucous it did!

Personally I believe any fish can be pellet trained if:

1.) They are crowded when small to make the feeding response competitive and there is nothing else to eat. (Raising water temps helps too).

2.) The feed starts out as soft, sinking, and palatable just like in nature, and there is something in the feed to stimulate the feeding response as in initially mixing in fish or krill products.

This can be enhanced through a selection process over a few generations and beyond, and those that are genetically predisposed to not feed train well are eliminated from the equation.

I also believe feed training fish that have come out of winter in a low or nonfeeding state is easier from my experience.

I have old aquaculture texts that say largemouth bass are next to impossible to feed train. Feed trained bass are the rule not the exception now due to economic reasons. More recently I've also heard others say redear are the same way, but at least two posters here have, or are, doing it. Bill Cody knows a fish producer that did also.

Bill Cody has had success feed training even adult fish which many say is next to impossible.



Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 09:02 PM
Hi Cecil -

As I'm sure you will agree, the hijacking that occurs on PB from time to time leads to some pretty interesting discussions. Your posts are greatly appreciated !

- Russ
Russ,

Glad to hear there are no hard feelings.

One other thing to add about feed training that I've learned: Grade cannibalistic fish well and grade often! Even though I graded into two groups the 700 plus smallmouth fingerlings I started out with ended up being 123! Beautiful young of year fish with some in the 7 to 8 inch range but not a lot of them!

Next year I will be producing two or three times more and feed training them in 55 gallon drums! At least three gradings many four.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/06/12 10:19 PM
The larger sized fish that I've pellet trained were adult BG, GSF, and the others were not really mature adults but were 6"-8" LM and SMbass. I used basically the same methods that Cecil noted above.
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 11/07/12 12:20 AM
I just hope you can figure out a way to train the crappie so we all can have them eating pellets. That would sure make for a nice pond if you have pellet trained crappie to catch and eat.
Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/20/13 10:18 PM
Within the next few weeks, I hope to have open water once again on my ponds. I'm very curious to see how the crappie did these past months while under the ice. My priorities are (1) weigh the fish and (2) try to get them back on feed.

In reference to question (1), weighing the fish will obviously require some handling. I would like to hear opinions on how to approach this while subjecting the fish to minimal stress?

Thanks

-Russ
Posted By: Rainman Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/20/13 11:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Russ
Within the next few weeks, I hope to have open water once again on my ponds. I'm very curious to see how the crappie did these past months while under the ice. My priorities are (1) weigh the fish and (2) try to get them back on feed.

In reference to question (1), weighing the fish will obviously require some handling. I would like to hear opinions on how to approach this while subjecting the fish to minimal stress?

Thanks

-Russ


Handle them when air/water temps are under 60 degrees or morts will be near 100%. Weigh a bucket half full of water and add several fish at a time, then subtract your starting weight (if your scale can't do tare weighing) unless you want individual fish weights.
I'll second that! For some reason crappies are really sensitive to handling and very prone to fungus. I've even heard of folks only handling them after dark! Definitely use salt!
Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/21/13 01:25 AM
Thank you gentlemen.
Cecil, they will get salt but I suspect not the manner you are thinking.
Originally Posted By: Russ
Thank you gentlemen.
Cecil, they will get salt but I suspect not the manner you are thinking.


???
Posted By: esshup Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/21/13 02:06 AM
Cecil, I think he means after they're cooked.

Using salt in the water when handling them stimulates the slime coat and helps minimize stress.
Posted By: Rainman Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/21/13 03:25 AM
Also since your fish are already caged, try to minimize crowding and mover the dip net slowly so the BC won't get to agitated...be prepared for sudden jumping as they realize they are trapped.
Posted By: Russ Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/21/13 08:15 PM
Cecil - I can't believe that one got by you but esshup covered it.

I will update this thread with the results.

Thanks

- Russ
Posted By: Yolk Sac Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/22/13 01:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Russ
Cecil - I can't believe that one got by you but esshup covered it.

Agree, Cecil is usually really sharp.
For some reason, he's been a little dense in this thread.
Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
Originally Posted By: Russ
Cecil - I can't believe that one got by you but esshup covered it.

Agree, Cecil is usually really sharp.
For some reason, he's been a little dense in this thread.


shocked grin

My problem is if a thread is so long I usually don't bother to read the entire thing. wink
Posted By: ewest Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/22/13 01:43 AM
Good luck Russ. Take a few pics if possible.
Posted By: esshup Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/22/13 12:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
shocked grin

My problem is if a thread is so long I usually don't bother to ready the entire thing. wink

You've been a bit busy the past few days trying to coordinate seining too! 14.7F here @ 6:20 a.m.
No seining today or tomorrow or for at least several days! The ice may be thick enough to ice fish again!
Posted By: JKB Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/23/13 01:40 AM
Everything is still frozen up here.

Sure sucks for being this late in the season.
Posted By: esshup Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/23/13 05:31 AM
You just got spoiled by the warm weather last year.
Last year was nice..
Posted By: JKB Re: Pellet raised black crappie in cages - 03/23/13 01:46 PM
Originally Posted By: esshup
You just got spoiled by the warm weather last year.


We have another week of cold and snow coming up eek

Usually things are thawed out quite well by now, and the ground is soggy, which makes it easier to push trees over and rip the roots out of the ground at the same time.

Big problem tho, the ground is still frozen. I have not seen the ground freeze like this in many, many years.

Today was supposed to be really nice, but that didn't happen. Two of my brothers wanted to do some shooting today. I have a sand backstop to absorb projectiles, and that is still frozen mad

Kill the groundhog laugh
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