So maybe this is in the wrong part. But we have a small pond outback of our house. Last year we had bass and they did fine. Its about 4 or 5 ft deep. We are thinking about RE doing it. If we were to take it to 6 ft would that be deep enough? I have no spring but I have a well that I can use. Also if I had more shade would it help?

Being just south of NY, and claims from local fisheries that I would need more than 10 feet for trout, I doubt 6 feet would be near enough to get trout through the summer. Shade or no... They like it cold.

It's all about how much money you want to spend on pumping your well water. Deeper isn't always more important. If your serious goal is to have year round trout, I would keep it right around 6' deep, but keep the banks of your pond steep. Minimal shallow water areas will help limit solar heating of your pond. See what the temp of your well water is. Realize the bigger the pond, the more well water you will need to pump in it to keep the temps down in those toasty warm summer days. Shade would help some, but again the biggest factor will be pumping large volumes of cold well water into your pond. You will also need to aerate that well water to increase the DO in it as well before it goes into the pond. Ask Cecil Baird for his advice, he has done what you are trying to do and can provide far more advice.

Last year when it had bass the water was around 74° at the hottest without me adding water. That was with it being 4ft deep little shade and sloping banks.

You'll want it to stay under 68 for the trout.

Btw well water here. Is 52-54 degrees.

Like CJ sez, you can do just about anything if you throw enough money at it.
It's all about temperature and oxygen with trout, my 1 acre pond is only 8 ft. deep but with 110 GPM from a cold stream it's able to support even Brook trout.
If you have no other water source, than pumping well water would be your only option with a small shallow pond supporting trout.

Search through the forum and look for trout info on raising trout by Cecil Baird.

And welcome to the Forum Joe.

So if a run a big old water pump to great a current would that help? I was thinking about running copper tubing under the pond and in the ground.

That would be a waste of effort.

Steely Joe,

As stated earlier by CJBS2003, (and outstanding advice from the others here too that have hand on experience), smaller is better in pond size for trout as far as keeping the water cool enough in summer and diluting nitrogenous wastes. And they don't have a problem with small, as if you've ever been to a trout race way you'll notice they aren't very big.

My trout pond is only 88 by 55 feet and if it wasn't for the iron issues (this pond by it's size dilutes the incoming iron from the well) I could get by with an even smaller pond.

My pond uses a well pump of 45 gpm 24/7 seven months of the year. This keeps water temps in the mid 60's max in the hottest part of the summer. This also flushes out ammmonia, nitrites, and nitrates.

I use a calculation of 12 lbs. of trout to gpm of well flow so I can safely have and feed about 500 lbs of trout maximum carrying capacity. I've had the trout stress in the fall even when temps were cool enough, if I shut off the flow too soon, which caused a build up of nitrogenous waste. This was a double whammy as I now know that as temps fall in the fall the beneficial bacteria that break down these waste were in the decline due to falling temps. I now won't shut off flow until water gets really cold in the late fall. I've learned this by learning the concepts of the nitrogen cycle by running an RAS for other species.

My trout pond also has steep sides and max depth is 8 or 9 feet. I run a diffuser in the bottom in the center only at night in the summer to not warm temps up too much. The diffuser doesn't add a lot of oxygen but it prevents an anoxic layer developing on the bottom which would be counterproductive.

It may be overkill but I also aerate my well water via gravity by dropping it through 5 gallon buckets with the bottoms cut out and replaced with plastic screening. In those buckets is plastic media to aerate the well water and blow off nitrogen, C02, and hydrogen sulfide. This is using gravity of course after the water is pumped to the top of the buckets.

I'll posts pics when I get a chance. I'm pressed for time right now.

Cecil, could you extend the pipe bringing water into that pond to the bottom of the pond, therefore adding oxygenated water to the bottom of the pond whenever the well in running?

I would think so Scott. Only problem is I know what I'm doing has worked for me in the past and I'm afraid to try something new.

The only downside I could see is there wouldn't be the additional aeration I get at the final point when the water comes up at the upturned elbow before dropping into the pond. And that final point may also discharge more CO2, nitrogen gas, and the little hydrogen sulfide I have. But the question is then, is it needed?

And then what would one gain by shuttling the aerated well water to the bottom if one used a diffuser and mixed the water column? You could end up with warmer water overall this way. Due to heating during the day surface water could warm significantly and once you mixed this with the cooler water below you could end up with slightly warmer water. Perhaps not though.

All questions that would have to be answered by trying this I guess. You'll have to try this when you get the ponds dug.

A simple solution is to install a tube type membrane diffuser in the well water supply line and deliver the well water, oxygenated to the bottom. There will be a greater absorption of the O2 and fewer bubbles left to rise and mix the cooler water being delivered.

The tube diffuser could easily be sealed inside the water pipe, yet remain easily serviceable. If the gasses not being released are a concern, the described method could still be used by adding the tube diffuser near the well, dumpinng the water into an open top barrel 3-4 feet above the pond surface level as a vent and then letting the unpressurized water gravity flow to the pond bottom.

The trout pond behind the house:



The trout at feeding time. Just kidding!



A brookie coming up for pellets with ice cover.



One of my brookies that was harvested for sale to taxidermists. The brilliant color was in part due a an astaxanthin enhanced diet from Aquamax.



Some brooks in the freezer ready to be shrink wrapped:



A friend of my parents and one of my big brooks she caught via hook and line.

More pictures:

My twin with a brown he took out of the pond a few years back




Five gallon buckets in a series used for aeration of well water.



View of well water entering top bucket:



Water discharging into lined distribution pit. Used to move water to different ponds if needed via gate valves.



Picture showing plastic perforated piece inserted into top bucket to make the water distribute evenly into the plastic media. I will be inserting one for each bucket in the future.

The plastic media used in the five gallon buckets:



A couple more browns:



Big rainbow out of the pond; my first harvest. 9 lbs. 9 oz.



Biggest brown at about 12 lbs. my neighbor is holding. Obviously overfed!

Makes sense. However I'm still not sure that would be as effective as the open air packed column to aerate and blow off harmful gases. You also now have an additonal power expense vs. letting gravity do it.

I could be wrong though.

Cecil...no additional costs at all if you are already pumping your water and aerating....just simply redirecting the costs expended.

Your system already beats out all harmful gasses and adds as much oxygen as it possibly can to the well water. The only "loss" is the extremely minor bit of pond water being aerated at the dump point. Dumping your water in the top of the pond and letting the "gravity" work to pull the more dense cool water to your pond bottom is also letting that cool water be warmed far more than needed. Adding a more confined, insulated space for the "agitation aeration" system you have is going to save you energy.

Extending your tubes to the bottom would save you considerable energy because the water would stay cooler, longer and less water would need to be pumped.

Cecil, if your overflow drain in that pond takes water from the top, I think you might lower the temps a bit more by not using the bottom diffuser, and adding the water to the bottom of the pond. The warmest water will stay on the top, and be the first water to go out thru the overflow pipe.

But my compressor is only running at night vs. having to run it 24/7 to aerate the well water with your option.



Actually no. It does not produce full saturation of oxygen and there is still some C02 in the water. I know this because I've measured oxygen saturation, and I know all the C02 is not liberated until the PH rises to 8.3 which takes a couple of day in my RAS'.



Probably.



True, but you still have the situation where mixing with a diffuser even if only at night negates that somewhat. The diffuser is needed to keep oxygen levels up on the bottom where wastes and decomposition takes place. I don't think just adding aerated water is enough. I could be wrong however.

I'd love to see someone try yours and Scot's alternate with all of us collecting data for comparison.

That's true but I'm not entirely convinced you don't need some mixing to aid decomposition, autothrophic bacteria, dilute ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Like I say I'd rather see the data first before taking the chance on 5 grand worth of brook trout.

Cecil:

If you had the chance for a "do over" with your water supply system to the pond, what would you change? Since I'm going to be doing something similar to what you're doing, are there any improvements that could be made?

I'll have to think on that. An RAS would use much, much, less water flow and give you a bigger bang for the buck. With an RAS I could raise at least 5000 lbs. of trout with the same flow rate. I'm actually wasting a lot of well water. That is why I'd like to do RAS in the future with trout. Also biosecure and no predators.

Flow through raceways of some kind would also give you a production potential of 50 lbs. per gpm or more. The fins would not look as good as I would need them for my market though. Raceways can be in ground and lined, or just made of wood. Concrete is best but not everyone can afford them. There are even earthen raceways, but I'm not sure your sandy loam is conducive to that.

If you don't have any iron issues you may want to consider doing what Nelski does at Crystal Springs. That way you can separate the trout via species, and sizes. However if you do have iron issues -- ponds the size he uses -- would be a nasty brown from the iron and your trout would have irritated gills. Been there done that with a 25 by 25 foot pond.

Originally Posted By: Rainman...Extending your tubes to the bottom would save you considerable energy because the water would stay cooler, longer and less water would need to be pumped."

Originally posted by Cecil..."True, but you still have the situation where mixing with a diffuser even if only at night negates that somewhat. The diffuser is needed to keep oxygen levels up on the bottom where wastes and decomposition takes place. I don't think just adding aerated water is enough. I could be wrong however."


You would be delivering oxygenated water to the bottom...makes no difference if it gets oxygenated from aeration or the water being pumped to the bottom is already oxygenated...in fact, pumping oxygenated water to the bottom would lessen the high and low oxygen sat periods...reducing stress.

You could still reduce your air pump/water pump energy use by switching to an hour on/hour off approach and NOT activating your diffusers in the pond during the day. Add a small air pump for the well water and reduce your pond aeration to run from say 1am to sunrise. I think you would end up with better water quality, cooler temps and less energy/water consumption.


If your buckets are not fully saturating your well water and releasing all the CO2. I will virtually guarantee you have another chemical reaction going on that accounts for it..it would never take 2 days in an RAS system to achieve full O sats...perhaps high calcium carbonate reaction taking the O2 and creating CO2....

So what trout would do best in a pond? What about tiger trout? Or brownies.

Of the major three(brook, brown, rainbow) brown trout are the most tolerant of warmer lower DO conditions, but not substantially. However, they are the most aggressive, cannibalistic and many think hardest to catch. Brook trout require the best water quality of the major three. Rainbow trout are generally the most commonly stocked trout for ponds. They have an golden morph which most of us who grew up fishing for trout in PA know them as palomino trout. So you can stick with just rainbows but have "two" types of trout in your pond for variety. Tiger trout can be tough to source but are an aggressive fast growing option that I think are very pretty.

I know a guy who has some kamloop trout up in potter county. Wonder how they would do? Also thanks many names for the goldens here in pa

I think you misunderstood about the O2 sat rate time factor. I was referring to Co2 not 02 when I said it took two days to fully liberate the C02 and bring the PH up from 7.5 to 8.3.

As far as getting up to full sat on oxygen it's not instantaneous either but a matter of minutes. Once you get close to 100 percent it's gets more difficult to get to 100 percent. Adding one more bucket would put it closer though.

BTW on and off for any pump that many times -- especially a well pump -- is a really bad practice. A good way to have problems IMHO.

I respect your opinion on this but respectfully disagree.

Ditto, although you do know the Palimino and West Virginia Golden Rainbow are two different things right?

Browns get a bad rap for being hard to catch but their aggressiveness can work against them.

A Kamloops from any hatchery is just a domesticated rainbow like the rest.

Cecil, Have you raised any Browns in your ponds?If so, what are your findings concerning water temps and tolerances? I read somewhere they can handle water in the low 70's.

Had to edit...I answered part of my own question by "reading". Yes you have grown Browns...forgive me. But what about the temperatures?

It's not just temperature but dissolved oxygen as well.

Brown trout can handle temps over 80 degrees if dissolved oxygen is at or very near full saturation. However, you are rarely if ever going to have DO levels that high in a pond situation. Some studies I have read concerning survival rates of brown trout say they can handle temps pushing 85 degrees for short periods of time and temps around 78 indefinitely if the DO level is at saturation. Rainbow trout can tolerate temperatures fairly close to this, perhaps a a couple degrees less. However, anything above 74 is going to stress them with temps over 78 heavily stressing them. For browns, shoot for 70 and under, for rainbows 68 and under and for brookies 66 and under. That is assuming DO levels are at least around 6 ppm or higher. Different strains of trout in the same species can even have different tolerances. Age of the trout also is a factor, with YOY fish and larger adult fish being the least tolerant to higher temps. Trout that are in good condition will have better survival rates in sub par temps as they can handle stress and subsequent body weight loss compared to those fish which aren't in as good of a condition. Most literature seems to suggest that rainbow trout grow best at around 66-67 degrees and cease to grow around 74.

In the creek behind our hunting cabin, water temps in the summer will climb into the upper 70's and sometimes over 80 near the surface. DO levels are usually close to saturation though. Depending on conditions for each year, we generally see most brown trout survive 3 out of 4 years and rainbow trout survive 1 out of 3 years.

Since reading about winter time trout stocking in ponds, here on PB, I was kicking the idea around.I've been weighing the species options, and saw the Browns handle the highest temps of the three. I also read the Browns are "the most elusive".So many things a layman as my self reads, translates as totally undoable or a wasted effort. Just how difficult are the Browns to hook? You stock 300 and catch 3 or 4? That's how it "translates" to me anyway.Especially since I am not a Trout angler extraordinaire.I've caught one in my life and it was a Rainbow.

Sounds like wintertime trout angling, a 1/4 mile from the house with no limits, licenses and stamps required might be fun.

CJBS, thanks for the compiled information. It saves alot of searching.


That response should be archived for quick reference!(maybe it has and I have'nt found it)

It's been my experience that brown trout and very aggressive for the first time. Each year I generally stock 30 browns and 70 rainbows. I will almost always catch 3-4 browns for every rainbow caught. They are that aggressive. However, once they have been caught once, they are much more difficult to catch a second time compared to rainbows. I know I have a few brown trout that have survived a couple of years that are now over 6 pounds but are almost impossible to catch...

Wow, a far cry from the picture that's been painted in my head.
CJ, what about growth rates. How do the growth rates fare between the major 3? I would feed when ice out allows, and since growing time would be of an essence? And "once caught once eaten."

Rainbows are the fastest growing from what I have seen, especially when pellet fed...

CJBS2003 is right on with his posts; really nothing to add.

Thanks guys! Sounds like a Brown/Rainbow combo is the recipe.

James I would suggest getting tiger trout if they're available in your area, they are a cross between a male brookie and female brown, they are tough, and aggressive.
I would say they are also the easiest to catch of all the trout species.

Adirondack, I've seen those beautiful specimens on here. I do need to see if they are available in my area. I'll research for the thread on here with those dandies!

Here we go again!

Cecil, no sweat man! I just read "THE THREAD"......Tigers are cool looking, but I'm with you. The Brookies to me are the classic looking trout.Makes me think of Virgil Ward,and old Hamm's beer commercials. If I thought they would be the best for my winter-time Missouri pond....that's what would go in!

Tigers are no different than most any type of fish you can stock for the particular enjoyment of your pond.
People who want fast growing BG might stock condello strain BG which have been selectivly bred to give them that result.
If your a lousy fisherman like me Tigers are an excellent way to raise and enjoy catching trout, and they also exist naturally in the wild.
I like catching the brookies in the pond, but the tigers are caught much more frequently.

I'm a worse fisherman than you, you've caught more than my one Rainbow.....my lifetime tally!

I need to find what's best for my pond experiment. Hey Adirondack, you've had them survive year round, what does your water temps get to in July and August?Any idea?

I'm not expecting a year round survival, just seeing how far I can stretch their survival.

James I see you have a 3 acre 15' deep spring fed pond, it wouldn't cost much to experiment with small numbers of trout now to see if they can survive the summer.

Rainbows would be the easiest to get and maybe some brookies and tigers if available. Put in about 50 total and see if they make it thru the summer.

Addition helpful things would be aeration, and also a surface fountain pump, running both on a thermostat set for cooler days and nights.

My pond is supplied with 110gpm piped in from a cool stream which is well oxygenated from fast movement over the rocks.
The near surface temps. will get into the 70's in the summer but the temp. below 5 ft never gets above the 60's.

Someone needs to selectively breed some rainbow trout to be more warm water tolerant. Pull out the last of the last trout to survive each year just before they die, bring them back from the brink and then breed them. Keep doing that and dang it you just might get some rainbows that can survive the more typical pond.

Travis since you do have the knowledge and experience in fish science i think that would be a great project for you to take on when you get your ponds, you could call them Trainbows.
How's the search for suitable land going?

Even with the economy being down land prices are still high here in the DC area. And being a public sector employee, we're getting hit with no/limited OT opportunities and other cuts. Throw in family needs, I am not getting my own pond any time soon. Just stuck managing other people's ponds and playing with the ponds in my neighborhood that no one else seems to care about.

If you want good pay and all the OT you can stand apply for corrections officer in Middlesex county N.J., my nephew can't get any time off. Of course the down side is living in joisey.

So I did some research and found out that if I use pond plants like Lilly pads it will help keep it cool by blocking sunlight. Also my dad told me to take and make some sort or awning or screening to block the sunlight and help keep leaves out of it. Do you think this will work. Also thinking about burying copper tubing in the ground and pumping the pond water through it to cool it off. Let me know what you think.

All would help keep the water cool and all have other drawbacks as well...copper and pumping cost big bucks...if wanting some geo-thermal effect, go with the tubingmade for it..still cheaper to re-stock annually.

Lillypads will do minimal shading as the leaf itself will absorb lots of heat to be transferred into the water as well as making fishing difficult or a variety being highly invasive.

an awning may help shade and keep leaves out, but be a whole lotta work to keep maintained and cleaned.

Thanks .

OK now if I put copper tubing under the pond by about a foot or two. And regards circulate the water will that work?. Also will putting a trench help keep the water cooler. Finally how does water turnover work.

Just remember heat rises, cold sinks. I don't know if the tubing with cool water running thru it on the bottom will do much good.

Water turnover spring and fall. Water is densest when it's 39°F. Anything warmer or cooler floats. Lakes and pond do a flip/flop when cooling down for the winter, and warming up for the summer.

What I was saying is pumping warm water under the pond. About a foot deeper than the pond and then dumping it back in the pond thanks. For the info

That might work, using the ground as a heat sink. You might want to play with the water flow thru the coils. Just like a car radiator won't cool the motor if a thermostat or a reducer is in the system to reduce the flow. The dwell time in the "radiator" has to be sufficient for the water to lose some of it's heat.

Thinking a bit, it might be even better if the coils weren't anyplace where they would influence the water, i.e. buried outside of the pond basin.

Now I was thinking about instead of coils using multiple sections of copper tubing joined together. I could use larger diameter tubing. I think but I hope that others chime in.

This much work and effort, it'd seem a whole lot cheaper to just restock the trout each fall... Central PA has plenty of places to buy trout at reasonable prices.

Joe I think you could end up over complicating things, if you can pump enough well water into the pond and run it down a small rocky water course for aeration that probably would be sufficient.

Agreed. And copper tubing isn't cheap either!

I have to say .... Wow.... Cecil.... Keep doing what your doing ! Looks like it's working well for you...how old were those huge brookies?.....nice work..I envy you. Taking some time but i am getting there..... Power to pond this summer(aerator ) and brookies and rainbows this June.

I get them as one year olds at 8 to 10 inches and will have up to 19 inch fish one year later, although most run in the 16 to 18 inch range by then. This cycle I hope to get them into the mid 20's and 6 pound plus fish as 3 year old fish. My biggest was over 6 lbs.

Bringing this back from a few months ago. The warm weather is here in my part of Southern Ontario and I still have all my brookies/tigers/browns and a few rainbows in the pond. Usually I pull the brookies out in mid may but I have been sick the past few weeks and wasn't able to. The guy I got everything but the brookies from gave me some advice last fall about having the trout make it thru the summer in my pond. My pond is aprox 1/2 acre, with 2-16'+ holes and an average depth of 10 feet. The pond is not directly spring fed but is 100% ground source and is directly in the water table. The pond butts up to a 6 acre Pete Moss bog/swamp with the water table being less than a foot from the surface even in the hottest days of summer.
In the past I have lost the brookies in early June and the browns/rainbows have made it thru the summer with no issues other than the one year I had the pond turn over due to 6" of rain in less than an hour.
Anyway, this guy told me to shut down feeding all together come mid may (I havn't feed in over 2 weeks). He said they will use 3 or 4 times the oxygen eating as they would if they wern't being fed. He said they will no problem find enough food on there own for 3 months if they can make it thru. The other thing he mentioned that would be benificial is building a few floating rafts as large as possible. I could easily build a few 16x16 rafts with 1/4" plywood to sheild the sunlight over the two deep holes and the cost would be very minimal (aprox $200 for the two including the barrels which I already have).
I have my aerators in the top 1/4 of the water column (difusers that float up from the bottom when air is going thru them).
I also typically dye the pond also as I am not looking for a bloom with the trout and it seems to really keep the weeds down which I don't have many of because the seriously deep sides of the pond (all sides but one little area drop faster in depth than distance you go out) and also seems to help the temps a bit.

Anyone have any opinions on these idea's? I will pull out a few of the brookies if I can but am really intrested to see if I can get them to last into the fall...

Thanks in advance...Ryan

Ryan,

I'd say it's worth a go. Not every pond is the same so what works for one may or may not work for another.

The way I see it the two main factors at work that determine if your trout make it through the summer are the amount of solar heating you get and the fertility of your pond. Obviously the more of both you get, they're going to reduce the tolerance of your trout and the oxygen capacity of your pond. Fertile waters consume more oxygen as the dead bodies of your lower food chain consume oxygen as they decompose.

Keeping warming down by steep sides and shielding solar heating will help although I question if the amount of shielding you mention would be enough in a 1/2 acre pond. Conversely the larger the body of water the more difficult it is to cool it as more cold water is required to do so.

As far as stopping the artificial feeding of the fish that makes sense. They can and will subsist on natural feed but only if their density is not so high to deplete their natural food supply. The downside is you won't get the growth rates on natural feed you will on the pellet diet.

It's been my experience, trout stop feeding on their own when conditions become less than desirable. So whether it's pellets or natural feed, if the trout are nearing their maximum tolerance levels, they shut down and stop feeding.

Very true Travis! In the local trout lakes they just sulk on the bottom later in the summer and hang in there until the water turns over. That is unless the oxygen level gets too low and they are forced up. However I was referring to a situation if they were trapped in the thermocline and conditions are still tolerable enough that they are still feeding. They can't come up because the water is too warm/low in oxygen so they stay down and feed on invertebrates etc.

I had an individual in PA tell me his rainbows would shoot up in 80 degree plus water to feed on pellets and go quickly down again. Makes sense but he was prone to exaggeration and rarely sober so I'm not sure how reliable that was.

Ryan as far as building rafts to shade the pond it would be easier and cheaper than plywood to use sheets of foam and link them together, they would also reflect the sun well, if you wanted them raised up off the surface just glue some foam blocks to the corners.

Another helpful thing to cool the water would be to run a good size surface pump or fountain which would spray the water high enough to transfer more heat to the night air, an aerator does a good job but doesn't get the water in contact with the cooler air 5 to 10 ft. above the pond.
Good luck and hope your trout make it.