I have been pouring through all the great info in your forum and to be honest, the acronyms have been a bit of a stumbling point. I bought and stocked my pond with what the hatchery called Hyrid Coppernose. I cannot seem to find any reference as to whether this actually exists or not. Did I buy regular coppernose (would not be dissappointed, just want to know).
Mook
I've never heard of a hybrid coppernose. Not that there couldn't be one!
Can you call the supplier and ask him what the 2 parent species are if you don't know already?
My first thought would be Hybrid Bluegill "HBG" (Coppernose Male x Greensunfish Female).
They just got fancy with the name.
Where did you get the fish ? Can you post a pic ? I suspect that they are referring to CNBG as a hybrid (incorrect) or that they may be a mix of BG and CNBG (which are different strains of BG but are not a hybrid).
I will catch one soon and get a pic for you. I got the fish from Sheppards fish farm in Maurice LA ---
http://www.shepherdsportfish.com/he told me that is was a cross between CNBG and GSF. He also said that in his experience they cross breed back to CNBG.
Mook
It is according to their site a HBG. A pic would be great as to my knowledge we have not seen or had posted a pic of a CNBG X GSF.
The research is uncertain as to if they back cross with either parental but our collective guess is they will.
What is your goal for the pond? HBG will not alone support a LMB population.
I will be curious to see a picture of this as well, as I put some coppernose in one of my ponds that had GSF in it, so this may help me determine what fish are in the pond in the future.
Thanks
I will be putting in a whole bunch of fat head minnows this fall along with some pallets or other structure for them to spawn on. The LMB will go in sometime late May/early June according to the Hatchery.
I was told that this will give everything time for a spawn or two etc and the LMB should have plenty to forage.
Mook
Suggest you also get some 3-5 inch CNBG.
3-5 inch CNBG to go with whatever I have? I am confused - the 1/2" "hybrid CNBG" are already ?3 inches
Mook
Yes, stock 3" or > straight CNBG. Reason being that the Hybrids will not breed enough offspring to support the LMB population. The FHM will probably sustain them for most of the first year, but after that the FHM will be too small to sustain the LMB.
Think of it this way. How well would you grow if all you could do is eat 1 tablespoon of food, then had to walk or run around the block. That's equivalent to the 3 year old LMB eating a FHM.
Now what if you could eat a hamburger instead of the tablespoon of food while expending the same amount of energy? You'd put weight on quicker, right?
And I thought this blog was about pond and fisheries management - I think you just figured out my weight problem.
Mook
We are multi-talented and full of................analogies
Caught a couple of my fish this morning to get a closer look. They all looked the same - not sure if they are young red ear or the hybrid CNBG - thoughts? As you can tell, they are eating well as the bellies are nice and plump. I cannot believe they have gone from 1/2" to 4 1/2 inch in about a month and a half.
What ever they are they seem to be eating well!
They look like hybrids to me.
how can you tell? There are also some RES in my pond from my stocking but far outnumbered by these (above)
Mook
coloration and morphological features
HBG,
And they look different then the ones I have that are the Northern Bluegill x GSF.
Yeah Eric, I see what you mean.
thats it, looks like a match to me - thanks for all your help. I will try and take a better picture next time so that we can see the fins and more coloration - took my pics as I was heading to the office and was late.
Have you raised the IMO Georgia Giant before? Had success? Reproduction rate? reproduce back to? and finally, taste good?
Mook
So is the Georgia Giant nothing else but a CNBG x GSF?
At any rate the GG is still a HBG correct?
I am just wondering if the growth rate is possibe in that time frame, .5 inch to 4.5 inches in 6 weeks?
If so I can see why people like to stock these.
If you search here for "Georgia Giant" and go back a few years, you'll see why people don't like to stock them as well.
So is the Georgia Giant nothing else but a CNBG x GSF? -- no
It is a form (some type)of hybrid lepomis. The exact makeup is unknown to all except the developing hatchery.
I would call the place they came from and ask exactly what they sold you. After they answer I would ask if they sell Georgia Giants or know about them. It is possible that they have stumbled on a near Georgia Giant mix on their own.
If you want a put and take HBG pond that is a good use of HBG like fish. If you want a balanced LMB/BG type pond then add adult CNBG and fish out some of the existing hybrids.
I will continue to post pictures on here as I will have many sorts of Hybrids since I have a nice GSF pond and plan to add som BG and CNBG if I can find them.
Who knows what I will have in a few years, I guess they will be so diluted that it may be hard to tell after the first few generations.
The largest fish I stocked was 3/4 inch and that was the RES. All of the HCNBG were between 1/2" and 3/4". The one I have in the pic was the largest of 4 I caught. The other three were closer to the 3 1/2" size.
The hatchery told me that they simply were CNBG X GSF and that the retro reproduction has been primarily straight CNBG. He has them in all of his ponds and is very happy with the LMB sustainablity for forage. I guess this will ge a grow, fish, eat and see project.
Mook
the retro reproduction has been primarily straight CNBG. -- not sure I understand.
The hatchery told me that the fish I bought would reproduce back to CNBG. Since he told me that they were a cross with GSF, I assumed that he meant more CNGB than GSF in the next generations.
Mook
Hybrids can not through reproduction with their own produce offspring that go back (revert)to the original parentals (GSF or CNBG) genetics. Hybrid lepomis exhibit outbreeding depression in the F2 and subsequent generations. That is why all of the fisheries scientists I am aware of state that HBG offspring are not a good thing in a pond. All of the HBG pond plans I am aware of are based on the idea that the predator fish need to be able to eat all the HBG offspring and that over time it will be necessary to restock HBG. The idea is to put them in grow them to size and fish them out while the predators eat all the offspring. Below is a pic of an FX GG.
If there are enough pure CNBG stocked with HBG then over time the CNBG will out produce the HBG and leave you with a CNBG population. They will not be crosses(hybrids). CNBG produce lots of babies 30 to 50 thousand a year while HBG if they spawn successfully will have only a few (1000 +-) babies a year.
Mook,
Did you say you were feeding your fish, if so what brand and size of food are you using?
Hybrids can not through reproduction with their own produce offspring that go back (revert)to the original parentals (GSF or CNBG) genetics. Hybrid lepomis exhibit outbreeding depression in the F2 and subsequent generations. That is why all of the fisheries scientists I am aware of state that HBG offspring are not a good thing in a pond. All of the HBG pond plans I am aware of are based on the idea that the predator fish need to be able to eat all the HBG offspring and that over time it will be necessary to restock HBG. The idea is to put them in grow them to size and fish them out while the predators eat all the offspring. Below is a pic of an FX GG.
If there are enough pure CNBG stocked with HBG then over time the CNBG will out produce the HBG and leave you with a CNBG population. They will not be crosses(hybrids). CNBG produce lots of babies 30 to 50 thousand a year while HBG if they spawn successfully will have only a few (1000 +-) babies a year.
Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that hybrids did in fact play out into their parental phenotypes. When two hybrid bluegills breed, a percentage of the offspring will largely have a bluegill phenotype, and a percentage will have a green sunfish phenotype, I might be wrong, but this was my understanding. In fact I am fairly certain that I have witnessed it.
wow thats one ugly fish- I guess it would be a good bet in either case to get some straight CNBG as noted in a previous post.
The feed I am using is just the game-fish stuff I get from the feed/seed store and I actually switched over to the catfish food a couple weeks ago because it was cheaper.
Mook
How much cheaper are we talking? Were you using the Purina Game Fish Chow before?
Just wondering, as I too was going to use the Catfish food but as you will hear from others on the site, it may have many extra ingredients that you may not want your fish to have.
At any rate more advice will be coming your way.
Too funny - that is what I told my wife after she bought the catfish food - cheaper is rarely if ever- better. Yes it was Purina and yes I will be going back to it since after the last discussion with my wife she said that I was in charge of getting all the feed if I did not like what she got -sound familiar to anyone?
Mook
"Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that hybrids did in fact play out into their parental phenotypes. When two hybrid bluegills breed, a percentage of the offspring will largely have a bluegill phenotype, and a percentage will have a green sunfish phenotype, I might be wrong, but this was my understanding. In fact I am fairly certain that I have witnessed it."
Take a look at this on outbreeding depression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depressionOnce the GSF and BG genes are mixed in a HBG they can't revert to what their parents were genetically (at least not in a short time like a few years/lifetimes). HBG are 90% males +- and so there are not many females to spawn. Plus fecundity is very low. So the probability of an ongoing HBG population undoing the cross genetically through evolution/selection is exceedingly small. What I believe you are seeing is the result of outbreeding depression as noted in the link.
Don't even get me started on that boat as none of the women over here even understand why I am feeding fish, and wonder why I waste the money.
I bet the first time my wife hooks into a 1+ pound BG or a nice 3+ pound LMB that has been eating the fat BG she will change her mind.
Plus I tell them it is for the kids anyway and they love to fish, not to mention how much the like to eat it as well.
No matter what the theory states...I have not seen significant successful reproduction from hybrid bluegill.
Also IMO, the Georgia Giant is also just an overhyped hybrid bluegill. Maybe at one time they were special but now I understand them to be the result of the standard green sunfish/bluegill cross. Either way, they are not ideal for bass forage, they are more of a competitor!
I agree with the others, stock with significant numbers of mature coppernose bluegill before you even think about stocking bass.
