I have always been very interested in pike, and have read through tons of pages here and elsewhere about adding them and I understand that they are sometimes used to limit heavy bass populations. However, I was wondering has anyone ever designed and stocked a small lake or large pond based around quality northern pike fishing. I would think it would have to be kind of large, around 10 acres or so with some marshy flatlands that flood for spring breeding. I have read a lot also about northerns eating pond owners "out of house and home" but, I think building a pond around pike might work. Any suggestion of forage fish? It would have to be something that breeds a lot and grows fairly large, maybe gizzard shad? It would be nice to establish a pretty heavy pike/acre ratio. Do you think this is possible? This is all theoretical by the way. Thanks.

CRB, welcome to the forum. Until another more qualified member chims in ill make this statement. What ever the forage chosen is it needs to have the body of lmb style fish not a bg. Pike are able to eat that shape easier. You would need a forage that spawns like a bg. Maybe a type of shad?

In nature they eat yellow perch among other things. Not sure if perch reproduction alone could keep up. I would think they would eat bluegill if there were no other choice even if their shape is not ideal.

I personally would go with Pike, LMB, perch and sunfish for a balance.

But, If you want only pike as a predator, maybe perch and green sunfish as forage since green sunfish are more slender than bluegill. That would be an interesting combo and the green sunfish fans may chime in!! However, as the pike get bigger, they are going to want larger forage than the perch or sunfish, probably.

How about Chain pickerel instead of pike? Similar in most ways but don't get as big

I suspect the GSF is already moving agents into place to fully assess the nature of your comments. If they find you to be in any way sincere about your suggestion to sacrifice the sanctity green sunfish by making them into forage fish, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes! And besides, I'm pretty sure a GSF can eat a pike if it chooses to!

Actually, I am a member of the GSA and have the decoder ring to prove it. However, since you mentioned it, I did see a suspicious black Chevy Suburban following me home earlier, so they may think I am a mole or double agent.

And yes, I think at least JHAP's large GSF could take down a Pike.

Man, you guys are just... I put this guy in charge a couple months ago to nail the GSA down. Get over it! There are NO outs!!!

I dont think the gsf could keep up with the reproduction needed to feed pike.

I think GS would work fine for a food source. They get large enough, and will survive the winters. But, I don't know enough about Pike and how they work at catching prey. If Pike like to stay close to cover and ambush their prey in short fast spurts without a lot of turns, will they venture to open water to chase GS?

Here are my thoughts... First, if trophy pike fishing is the goal, I'd skip on attempting to get them to spawn in my pond. The odds even with intentionally building a marshy area of them naturally reproducing is probably pretty low in a small pond of only 10 acres or so... However, I would do everything possible to prevent natural reproduction so you have complete control of the number of fish you have in your pond. If natural reproduction does occur, you will have to work very hard at removing every pike you catch under a certain size, probably 24"-30" in size and maybe even larger than than...

I would maintain the population by annual stockings. Stocking 12"-16" pike at 1 per acre. So if you had a 10 acre lake, you'd stock 10 per year.

As far as forage, I would stock feathead minnows(FHM), golden shiners(GSH) and yellow perch(YP) in the beginning. As the pike population starts to reach a point where 25% of the population is over 30", then I would consider stocking gizzard shad. I would guesstimate that happening at around year 6-8.

To continue CJ's thoughts: let's guess that the 10-acre pond in CT can support 10 pounds of pike per acre. That's a reasonable guess in a "hypothetical" situation. So, the question is, do we want the pond to have 20 5-pound pike (2/acre) or 10 10-pound pike (1/acre). We don't need much reproduction (or stocking) to maintain this population unless we plan a lot of harvest.

Dave, would leaving out all predatory fish but the pike bump up the pond's carry capacity for pike?

Honestly, I don't know, CJ. I suspect so, wouldn't you? However, it's only usually a small proportion. So, if we got rid of (or didn't introduce) 40 pounds/acre of LMB, how much "room" would there be for "bioreplacement" with pike? Maybe a few pounds per acre? That's what we usually see. Even though we think that both pike and LMB are top predators, their "roles" in the pond would actually be somewhat different.

In the end I think you could have a few moderate sized pike or a small handful of bigger pike. I think this thread sort of relates to the 4 acre? pond you retenoned and found 4 pike and a few plump but small GSF... Tough to have a quality pike fishery in ponds and small lakes. Even when you try really hard to manage for them.

Again, I sure agree with you CJ. That's what I've seen with pike in ponds of several acres. Either there are a lot and they are mostly small, or there are very few, but can get large. Haven't ever seen 20 pounders, but 10 pounders are not unique.

Lusk has taught me not to say "no" to a management option such as pike. He always said that pondowners need to set their management priorities, and then we biologists can give the owners the pros and cons of a situation. I used to say pike shouldn't go in ponds. Now, I just point out the realistic situation. Plus, all this talk about pike in ponds and being a little more open-minded is how we got to the idea of a few pike to help control LMB overpopulation. A few pike of one sex (= no reproduction) in a pond will really work on the overly abundant 8-12 inch LMB. As a result, I've seen those ponds actually end up with bigger bass, and still have their quality panfish. The key, of course, is getting the right amount of pike. Too many pike and things can really go downhill quickly.

For the first two years of membership all of our members are on "observed" to ensure that they are in fact dedicated to our cause.

CRB, Don't know if this will be of any help, but in Dwight's pond he has about a half dozen female NP that all seem to grow pretty well. He was lucky and when his 5.1 acre pond was sealed that only females were locked in the pond. We have yet to see any evidence of a male NP. Some other ponds I fish in the area have had well meaning fisherman throw in some live NP, but if there is a combo of males and females and they spawn, it seems to me that you end up with a few larger females, and many small NP we call hammer handles. I imagine this could vary with some pond management, amount of forage, etc. I have a pond behind my home that used to be dominated by LM Bass, Crappie, and Bluegill. Someone planted some NP in there, now it is mostly small crappie and many hammer handles. So just throwing in a few NP messed up the whole pond. Not that I don't like to catch NP, but the small ones aren't good for much. I am a fisherman not a pond specialist, just relaying what I have experienced

Thanks guys, there's a lot of the answers here that I was looking for. But, do you guys think that if spawning occurs, and I fish out enough of the smaller pike then it could work? I don't mind eating pike really, the bones are a nuisance at first by I'm pretty good at removing them now. I would think that GS and YP would be good forage food, they get pretty big, and breed like crazy I hear. I wouldn't want green sunfish, as their not native over in the northeast. Really, any sunfish wouldn't be targeted too often unless they're easy prey if fusiform fish like YP are present. Also, I hear that fathead minnows are really just an expensive snack, and never really last long.

Have you considered Tiger Musky as opposed to Northerns? Tiger Musky (hybrid between a Musky and Pike) are apparently more tolerant of water conditions than Pike, and sterile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskellunge#Subspecies_and_hybrids

http://www.mightymusky.com/articles/mnsportsmanarticle.htm

I agree with Txelen and Stick - go single sex NP or consider Tiger Muskie. You can always revert to a spawning population of NP but can't ever go back unless you want to rotenone and start over.

I would like to get a Tiger Musky for my little pond if I could find some, but I have never seen them for sale

http://www.trophygamefishinc.com/ They are in MN but will overnight you a single tiger. They aint cheap... They are usually available in the fall.

Thanks for the link CJ, but all I see is a $2500 minimum order. I could see 50 bucks, but $2500 is out of my price range

If you call them, they usually are willing to work with you...

I was just thinking about this thread today. Would it be possible to manage a medium sized (3-5 acre) pond as a light-pressure Tiger Musky fishery? Having a pond that was a source of a couple 34"+ Tigers each year would be pretty nifty.

It seems that the main problem is providing sufficient fusiform forage. Would bullhead make a good forage species for larger Musky? Black Bullhead reproduce quickly, rarely get too large for a decent Musky to handle, do well in midwestern-type waters, and can eat from close to the bottom of the food chain.

TX

I continually find myself right in step with the way you think...we gotta get on the phone one of these days!

I love your project idea, one that I've been entertaining for a while, also. I feel TM would fit in many pond scenarios and one wouldn't have to simply focus on a two species pond. I agree, TM do need forage, but they can easily handle sizable YP and BG. I totally understand your BH reasoning, but why not create a fishery that not only boasted trophy TM but also trophy YP, BG, and SMB or LMB and add a sustainable forage fish like GSH? IMO the TM will apply tons of pressure on the other species and while their population might not be strong, the fish around will be large. That's my reasoning, but it's just an educated WAG.

Just an uneducated thought.

What about a Sucker forage base for NP, Muskie and TM.

6-10" suckers are a preferred Ice fishing bait with tip up's for these toothy carnivore's, at least in these parts of MI.

While they are not approved for culture in MI, I can take my cast net on the North Pier in Grand Haven, and catch a whopping pile really quick.

How would they do in a pond?

I think thats a great suggestion JKB. I know lake chubsuckers reportedly do well in a pond environment and I believe they also can have successful recruitment.

I don't know if Muskies target fish that live close to the bottom of the lake like bullheads. I'm thinking more along the lines of gizzard shad.

That was my initial thought, but suckers apparently require running water to spawn. If I'm mistaken, they would probably be a great forage species, I know that they make up a significant % of Musky diets in some lakes. I actually thought of bullhead because they're similar to suckers in many ways and I know they will spawn prolifically in ponds.

Lake Chub Suckers are definitely a possibility, I was just concerned that they wouldn't hold up to serious predation.



I'm by no means an expert, this is just a hypothetical I was throwing around in my head. My guess was that suckers seem to hang out on the bottom and Musky eat them, so Musky would eat bullhead too. My uneducated guess is that Gizzard Shad would be a good addition to a bottom feeder for forage as GS feed from a different part of the food chain.



Interesting idea, I was just worried that a multi-predator small pond would cause too much competition, or in the TM eating all the bass and resulting in a crazy overspawned mess of BG.

I have had this in the back of my head for a long time also.

I was thinking the White Sucker may be a possible pond forage candidate for the sharp tooth torpedos. This is from PA Fishes Chapter 12:

"White Sucker Catostomus commersoni
Species overview: The white sucker is found across Pennsylvania. It is the most common and widely distributed sucker in the state. Its natural range is from northern Canada to Florida, throughout the uplands of eastern North America, and west to the Plains region. It grows large enough to be sought by anglers, who usually fish for them during the white sucker’s spring spawning run. The genus name “Catostomus” means “inferior mouth,” referring to the bottom position of the mouth on the head. The species name “commersoni” recognizes an early French naturalist, P. Commerson.



Identification: White suckers have a stout cylindrical or tube-shaped body. They reach a maximum length of about 24 inches and five pounds. The upper part of the head and back is olive-brown, shading to light-yellow. There is a dull, silvery sheen on the scales on the sides, and the belly is whitish. In the white sucker, the lower lip is wider than it is high, and is split into two parts. The rounded snout projects very little, or not at all, beyond the tip of the fleshy upper lip. There is a single dorsal fin with 10 to 13 soft rays. During spawning, the male white sucker’s back becomes olive with a bright-lavender sheen, and there is a band of pink or red along each side.

Habitat: White suckers live in many habitats, from cool, clear headwater streams to warm rivers, to lakes, ponds and reservoirs. They are tolerant of pollution, low oxygen and silted water. Not particularly choosy about their home, white suckers can be found in dense weed beds, or in the rocky pools and riffles of streams.

Life history: In spring, when water temperatures reach about 50 degrees, white suckers make their spawning runs, or migrations. They sometimes enter small gravel-bottomed streams by the thousands. The fish may home in on spawning sites they have visited before. The fish spawn from early May to early June, which has given the white sucker one of its nicknames, “June sucker.” In lakes, they spawn along the edges or on shallow shoals, over gravel.

Spawning runs take place at night, with the actual spawning done after dark as well, in shallow water, sometimes with the fish’s back out of the water. Two or more males spawn with each female, pressing against her as eggs and milt are released. The tiny, slightly adhesive eggs scatter over the gravel, generally 20,000 to 50,000 per female. The eggs adhere to the rocks or drift downstream before settling to the bottom. The motions of the spawning act disturb the gravel and help to cover the eggs slightly.

Neither parent cares for the eggs or young, which is typical of the sucker family. After they hatch, young white suckers remain in the safety of the gravel for a week or two. Then they move off. White suckers can grow rapidly with sufficient food, and they themselves are an important food for game fish. If not caught or eaten, white suckers can live up to 12 years.

White suckers are moderately active in the daytime, but do most of their feeding at sunrise and sunset, when they can move into shallow water in dim light. They are bottom-feeders. They eat both plant and animal material, like zooplankton, aquatic insects, mollusks and crustaceans. White suckers are schooling fish, and can sometimes be seen in groups in the pools of clear streams."

Smoked Suckers are actually quite tasty.

Txelen

I fish a lot out in Western NE and those natural sandhills lakes are stocked with BG, NP, YP and LMB. The NP seem to keep all species in check, but that's my only fishery experience to reference. I do think the TM would take their share of LMB, but also BG and YP and GSH if you stocked the latter. If the BG populations began to increase to levels you aren't happy with you can always stock additional TM or adult LMB [15"+] to hammer the BG. I'm confident you could achieve a balance.

Interesting. In Minnesota and Wisconsin, introduction of Musky to new waters is somewhat controversial because some people think that Musky eat bass and walleye, while the DNR claims that Musky don't eat many gamefish. I'm not sure which camp to believe, but I think that using TM at perhaps 1/acre in a LMB/BG pond would be a really interesting solution to the green carp problem, at least in experiment. I wish I had a pond up here that I could experiment with.

Lake Calhoun in Minneapolis has a good TM population courtesy of the MNDNR and I catch a boatload of 12" LMB in there during the summer, but the lake also has many bullhead/carp that I believe the TM might be feeding on. In a small impoundment with fewer prey options, things could be different.

When one of the +-40 inch NP in our pond die of old age, I will stock a replacement. Six NP in a 5 acre pond has worked well on Bremer Pond. We have large LMB, BG, YP and enough of the new year class of each species survives each year to keep things on an even keel.

I don't believe that a NP minds eating many small meals a day rather than a few large meals. If a large NP requires a large forage fish, then why would they bite on a 2" fathead?

I also think that NP will eat a large number of common carp if they are available. We have several large brooder Carp that produce thousands of surviving young that seem to disappear before they reach 14inches from NP and LMB predation. There is nothing quite like a nice golden walleye sliding down the gullet; easy to catch and yummy in the tummy.

I think Dwight's observations are supported by the Devil's Lake fishery. Tiny scuds, a freshwater shrimp, serve as the primary forage source for a trophy WE, YP and NP fishery. That definitely supports the theory that predators can thrive on multiple small forage meals daily.

I was born and raised in Upper Wisconsin and I have seen with my own eyes TM take out a 2 lbs bass in a lake I used to fish. I have also seen a very large TM/Muskie not sure which try and take down a Loon. I kid you not!! It was one of the most unreal things I had ever seen. The Loon got away but only after 2 times going under from the Muskie. Muskie and TM are some EATING MACHINES make no bones about it! NP are right behind them!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uiu8wIgdsPk

Hey RC, Great story! I have witnessed a NP taking out a Mallard Duck. It was like the freshwater version of JAW's. It was quite surreal. One moment, the Duck was a happy camper, and in a blink of the eye, Duck was gone!

J.

S.A. Loons Restraunt in Minocqua, Wi. has a Musky on the wall that was found dead in Lake Minocqua that choked to death on a duck. No weight, but it measures 67" long. That thing is probably 10" across and 12" deep from back to belly. The next time I'm up there I'll take a picture.

esshup,

I grew up about 35 minutes from Minocqua, I lived in a little town called Eagle River. Do you know where that is?

KJB,

Your exaclty right. One second we were sitting there watching this Loon about 30 yards awasy or so from us and the next all hell broke loose!!!! I mean water everywhere Loon screaming and under it went. Then all of a sudden it came back up and about 3 seconds later BANG all over again it was the most scary thing I ever seen on fresh water! He went under again and popped up. This time is popped up about 30 feet from us and just kept going but I could tell it was hurt by the way it was trying to get away. That had to be one BIG Muskie that's for sure or N. Pike not for sure, but it was one or the other! Nothing else could do that!

RC51:

I think they have some sort of funny sled races there, don't they?

I've got relatives in Fifield and Park Falls, one owns Idle Hour Resort on Pike Lake. A buddy has a place between Boulder Junction and Presque Isle, and we normally spend the Wi. deer gun season there, although it's a year round house, not a hunting shack.

I'm blown away at the prices of houses up there on the water. The locals can't afford to buy one.

Hey Esshup,

Ahh yeah funny sled races all right!! Some funny game with a stick on ice also!!! Yeah house prices on the lake are CRAZY now a days. My mom and dad sold their house 3 years ago so I don't really have anymore ties that far up north. My sister lives in German Town near Milwaukee. And I have a uncle that lives in Wisconsin Rapids. We had friends in Boulder as well. I fished a lot on Catfish Lake and Eagle Lake and Kentuck Lake. Fishing for bass was kind of secondary. Normally your were fishing for Perch, Crappie, WE, NP, or Muskie. If you caught a bass you were suprised more than anything! Small world isn't it. Both my mom and dad raced in those funny sled races. Chaperelle's 440 modified. My mom raced with the guys she was one crazy girl growing up. Anyway it's good to talk with some folks from my old neck of the woods. Thanks for the quick walk down memory lane.

The longer that I'm on here, the smaller the country gets! I spent a considerable amount of time in the Stevens Point area as well. I'be a good friend that is from Hales Corners, down near Milwaukee.

I was only a kid at the time. My uncle said it was a NP that nailed the duck. I did not see it come back up.

Later that evening, at the campground. My uncle told us kids stories about Man Eating Muskies! For a number of years, I was afraid to go into any water except a swimming pool, and then, still had a bit of anxiety.

Small world, my parents have a place up in the Presque Isle area

So, Txelen - what's your thoughts on the TM experiment? My next two ponds are going to be dedicated to trophy catfish and the other a TM or Musky pond. I too am trying to figure out what would be the best forage - for both experiments.

Shoot, I have no experience with northern ponds. I've done a lot of fishing in MN/WI and have caught a handful of Musky and a bunch of Pike, but never from a lake smaller than about 50 acres. My knowledge is from this forum.

I like the idea of a couple of TM in a large LMB/BG pond. I would be concerned about catching the TM while bass fishing, resulting in losing expensive lures or having to play the TM to exhaustion on medium tackle.

One thing to consider: What are you doing with this trophy catfish pond? If it's more than a few acres, would it be possible to make it a dual catfish/TM fishery? Bullhead, GSH, FHM, and GS could be stocked, apparently bullhead are a favored prey of large catfish, and the TM may prey mainly on GS and GSH. Angling techniques for the two types of fish are different enough that you're unlikely to catch one while fishing for the other, and should it happen, you're probably using heavy enough tackle to haul either in.

Great question. The pond[s] will only be 1 acre, maybe less. I agree one could combine species and forage. My idea for the catfish pond was:

CB Hybrid [Channel/Blue hybrid]
FHC [Flathead]
BG - high fedcundity and additional panfish opportunity
GSH - high fecundity, fusiform and soft rayed
BH - high fecundity and fusiform
Carp - high fecundity, fusiform and soft rayed
GS [if they'd make it]
BC/WC - high fecundity/alternate panfish opportunity
LMB - could grow some monsters

I'd like to be able to fish the pond for multiple species instead of making it a one dimensional. Problem is, I don't want most of these forage species in my other ponds, so I'll need to remove them from the watershed entirely for risk of flooding and invasive species introduction. If I do THAT, I lose the opportunity to provide supplemental irrigation, so water quality/level becomes an issue and I fear TM requirements won't allow them to survive potentially warm and turbid waters. I'm still playing around with the mix, but these are my initial thoughts.

Maybe you could use pure Channel Cats rather than the hybrids? It's my understanding that pure Channels are less piscavorous than Blues or hybrids, so you could get away with "safer" forage species due to lower demands on them. TM may be able to keep CC reproduction in check.

Here in VA, the VDGIF typically stocks 1 pike or musky per 2 acres of water per year or every other year. Those fish stocked are usually 6"-10" fish and survival rates are fairly low as predation on those newly stocked fish is high.

The use of TM or single sex pike as bass predators is possible. However, there are risks IMO. They will not just feed on your 8"-12" bass, but will also feed on your 8"-12" YP... If you have enough vegetation for cover, your YP may be able to handle this predation. I think chain pickerel are a more manageable Esox species. With a rare fish reaching 28" and most topping out around 24". They will prey on the 4"-8" bass, but not prey on larger sized fish. Since pickerel reach a smaller size, you can have far more fish per acre, leading to a more consistent fishery.

If you are looking for the occasional shock of a 30"+ Esox species, then NP or TM are the only option. I would keep the numbers on the low end. I would look at stocking larger fish, say 16"+ and only stock 1 per 4 acres per year at most. The use or larger fish allows higher survival and the stocking of less fish. That way there is more control in numbers. You don't want to stock numerous smaller fish to have a better than average year for survival rates and end up with too many. Stocking less but larger fish helps solve that possible problem.

As far as forage for NP or TM goes, I think GSH are high on the list for most ponds. If your pond is fed by a permanent stream that could provide a breeding area for white suckers, they would also be an excellent forage. YP would also serve as an excellent forage. LMB in the >12" range would also fall prey. In a well established pond with numerous larger LMB and NP or TM, gizzard shad could also be used as a forage, but we all know the risks of gizzard shad and the affects they can have on a pond community.

Wow. What a detachment from what i am currently dealing with. Instead of asking how to get rid of too many, you're asking how can we sustain them.

A perfectly normal idea, i guess, and i will admit that the prospect of now having monster pike in dad's ol fishin hole is exciting, it is just odd to have all of this talk about adding them thrown about when i am just thrilled to be getting rid of them.

In my (ridiculously uneducated) opinion, unless you really have the time to deal with a pike overpop problem, make CERTAIN that it is all one sex, or just do tiger muskie. And listen to Dave....he's awesome.

I have a buddy who lives in a community a lot like my dad's, they did tiger muskie and are overjoyed by the results. That would be my first choice.

That being said...where will this pond be, would you like some of my pike ( ) and can i come play once you've grown them into monsters? I wish you the best of luck, if someone is actually going through with it. I'd love to see the result.

Finally: Hello to all my wisconsin neighbors. FIB here, I can spit to the border from my dad's pond, about a half hour southwest of Milwaukee.

-SB.