As I continue my quest to find a fish to add to my pond that has walleye and perch in it-I came across some reading about hybrid stripped bass. Can anyone give me some info on this fish and if it would be compatibable with my walleye/perch pond? Also would it make the winters and summers in SW Mich?

Thanks again for all the help I get on this forum

Dave

Dave:

Do you have any other forage fish in the pond besides YP? They will survive the cold weather just fine, it's just a matter of having food for them. If you pellet feed, they do well on pellets, but I am unsure how well they'd do during the winter if the only fish in the pond are YP/WE.

I added 50 lbs of fatheads this fall before I put the walleye in. I do pellet feed in the summer/fall. I am hoping that my perch spawn enough to help feed the walleye and them. I will add more fatheads again in spring and fall. Hopefully that would do it! what do you think

You will run into issues because we are not "allowed" to have them in Michigan. I wanted to get them as well. No one sells them in Michigan and Ohio checks drivers license. I will be interested in seeing other posts.

We can work together on this if you want to.

Didn't someone on here get HSB delivered to their Michigan pond from and Ohio fish supplier?

BTW, I heard the wolverine emerged from his hole and saw his shadow predicting 6 more years of bad football.

Michigan bans a sterile hybrid? Sounds logical...At any rate, I'm sure you two Big Ten guys can figure out a way to make things work.

HSB are Strictly prohibited in MI.

I have consulted with Dr. Nancy Frank by email and phone. And an Equivocal NO resounded. The contacts were good natured.

If you want to make another attempt, here is the info:

Michigan Department of Agriculture:
Dr. Nancy Frank
Animal Industry Division
P.O. Box 30017
Lansing, MI 48909
517-373-1077
FrankN@michigan.gov

I doubt someone would risk the prison time and fines, even from Ohio, much less the purchaser to pull HSB across state lines.

Anyway, ya need a new permit, that wasn't published properly (only by word of mouth, Check MAA) to bring anything into MI.

Well Water Tax is up on the agenda again. And possessing a fish in MI being alive and swimming in uncontrolled waters of the State, may have to be permitted. This means your aquarium fish as well, not to mention the stocking of your pond. Then you have to fill out another section which completely describes the short and long term disposition of your fish while in possession. It get's even worse if your fish spawn

Well - good government again in action. What would we do without these conscientious, duly elected offcials looking out for our welfare and best interests?.? I'm from the government and I'm here to HELP you. WE really do deserve the results of their actions - we did vote them into office. Will there ever be a house cleaning for government officials? Probably not, too much apathy exists. Many of "them" rely on apathy. This post may not have a very long life span which is fine considering this is a pond discussion forum.

I have heard that occassionally a few MI residents have been "caught" to have white amur by MDNR and they made the pondowner drain his pond to get the fish out. It is best to follow the law of the land.

They only ban things that could screw up the largest fresh water system in the world. Hybrids eventually revert, genetics, then you have a mess.

Track record is so, so. But they do the best they can.

It would be an awesome job to be a Fisheries Biologist in MI, in todays world.

With the announcement that VHSv is finally in Lake Superior and Cornell Prof's and Science Modelling is expecting a mass extinction, that they say is well under way due to VHSv and other factors. They do have a period dedicated to this, begins with an H, Sure it is not He--, but could be close.

Best catch your favorite while you still have time.

Bill, No way was I trying to upset the balance that Pond Boss Forum has, and I did not think I went over any edge, take a thousand other post's. I was just relaying info to others that may be in MI, and they may have to take a "Heads Up Approach" to what is growing on the ladder, before they climb up.

Is that bad? - If you think so, then I apologize!

HSB are also banned in VA. They don't want them escaping ponds and getting into the rivers and backcrossing with native striped bass. What is ironic is that the VDGIF used to stock 1,000's of HSB into public waters. It wasn't until the 90's did they have a change of heart. They still stock them into western drainages that flow into the Mississippi and not the Atlantic.

Thanks CJ for the info.

Bill,

One part of the discussion with Dr. Frank regarding HSB, is that She did not see too much of a problem if the fish were raised in an RAS, and completely sealed from any possibility of the fish escaping into the State waters. With the proper permits.

The NO came from a fear by the DNR (now run by the MDA) that in transport, viable eggs or fish may be released due to a traffic accident, and therefore transportation was the major roadblock.

When I get concrete info, as to what is really is going up, with the rest of the rules, I'll post it into the Pond Poss section as information.

We all have our jobs to do, and we all have our shortfalls. Gotta Love Everyone, and just make progress.

JKB - No problem and no upset. I was just venting on how well OUR government runs things. We do appreciate the info about new laws being proposed that will affect pondowners. What usually looks really good on paper can often have problems in practical application.

Thanks for all the great information. I appreciate that they want to protect Michigan waters. It just gets a bit frustrating at times.

Bill, that sure fits on my well thought out whizeroo ideas that just can't go wrong. Until I try them.

From a Mountaineer fan, who otherwise has no personal beef with Michigan, I hope their football misfortunes last as long as RichRod lasts there! I'm sure you Buckeyes don't disagree!

Us Penn Stater do!

My oldest brother is a PSU grad, so in spite of your Lions kicking the crap out of my Mounties for, oh, about 50 straight years, I've always actually been a fan. I just love seeing anybody beat RichRod and his new team these days, though it's tough to pull for anyone when Michigan plays Notre Dame. I wish there was a way both teams could somehow lose . . .

Maybe when the big extinction happens up there all the private fish hatcheries and pond owners should tell the states we won't sell you any fish. You reap what you sew.

BTW hybrids cannot revert to some alternate genetic form. They are what they are. If they reproduce with their own they can exhibit outbreeding depression which usually leads to nonviable fish i.e. extinction. If they happen to back cross they become more like their parent species. This is how nature has worked on its own for long before man arrived.

The geologic record is replete with crossing, hybridization, evolution, species divergence, extinction, and subspecies becoming independent species, local and regional populations of the same species with extensive morphological differences. Change is the only constant state. For example there are in Centrarchidae (sunfish) 44 species: 33 extant and 11 extinct species currently identified and numerous subspecies that are arguably independent species. In addition there are large morphological and even some genetic differences between local populations of the same Centrarchidae specie.

It wasn't but a few years ago they finally made the Spotted and Redspotted sunfish distinct species rather than subspecies. I think some ichthyologists are pushing for FL LMB and northern LMB to made distinct species. Unfortunately, with so much stocking, many sunfish subspecies have lost their genetic individuality.

Thanks for the clarification ewest.

thanks for getting a way from the RichRod bashing. Unfortunately, I don't have much to come back with, yet. All in for Michigan, baby (that's all I got!).

I understand the wolverine came out of his hole in Ann Arbor last Tuesday and saw his shadow. Which means another six years of bad football.

All Right, all right , all right!!! Hybrid stripers!! (Rich Rod will make it right, however)

I must really be ignorant. I don't even know what a Rich Rod is, cept' for that awakening time in my chair. I thought it was an Infomercial and changed the channel to Gunsmoke.

Two points:

1.) Someone here did get hybrid striped bass from an Ohio supplier. I wouldn't say who it is and I don't remember, but I still wonder if it was ignorance on the part of the supplier or they just ignored the law.

2.) How many of you knew that striped bass were considered instead of salmon, for the Great Lakes, back when lake trout were almost extirpated by the Sea Lamprey and alewives were going nuts?

I am sure there are a few more things out there that are not on the States most desirable list, be it ignorance or what.

I am glad they went with the salmon, otherwise a lot of charter boats wouldn't have any names. And the Southport Slammer and Northport Nailer would never have been invented.

But it is very possible we would have had larger striped bass than the salmon!

Not too many 50-60 pound salmon... I am curious how well striped bass would do in the Great Lakes? Why can't you have both striped bass and salmon in the Great Lakes? Why one or the other?

No idea but apparently striped bass are a no no as not even hybrid striped bass are allowed. Our forage base is way down though. Not sure how they would do compared to the 60's when their were so many alewives they washed up on the beaches.

I did some googling:

MI state record HSB is 10.75 lb taken out of the Kalamazoo River. 1996

Gun Lake, 219 acres, has a population of HSB

HSB have been in Lake Michigan since 1997. (sampling done near Indiana)

Walleye fisherman regularly catch HSB in LM by Indiana.

Every state surrounding MI produces HSB and there have been releases into the great lakes.

I am not sure there is a river or habitat that would allow striped bass or hybrid striped bass to successfully reproduce... Would take a long strong flowing river to have substantial success. I am no expert on the Great Lakes, so their may very well be a river suitable but I cannot think of any. But not many rivers are deep enough, with a clean enough bottom with enough current to keep a striped bass egg moving for 2 plus days to keep them from getting silt covered and dying.

This may explain a bit why they are not wanted in MI.

http://www.great-lakes.org/9-15-97.html

yes that explains the gov't bunk we are used to hearng.

How much different are they from the white bass (beside size) that run on the detroit river? Would they have similar habitats and the like?

You've gotta stand behind your team, CoachB, no matter what! I'll get back to liking the Wolverines once RR has been dismissed - he's my only objection to them!

Former WVU football coach who turned traitorous and left for Michigan's head coaching job. He was forced to pay his full $4million penalty clause, so that hints at the cloud of suspicion under which he left. (Sorry Bob or others who may have been put off by my injection of football chat here!)

So, turning it back to HSB, what would be the reasoning that a state would outlaw them? Reading the posts here and in other threads, if they are either incapable of reproducing, or if the conditions for reproduction are insufficient, it doesn't seem like they pose an overpopulation risk. As well, I have not read anything that seems to suggest that they would become a true invasive species in the sense that I have come to appreciate that term here. I'm going to have to see if they are legal here in WV as I'd be very interested in adding them to my mix when I renovate my big pond one day.

Agreed Todd, this was my question posed a while back. The article referenced by JKB seemed rather general and vague IMO. The only reason I can figure is if there is an issue with LM forage population. It's accurate that HSB are open water apex predators with voracious appetites - but it also true they are prized game fish that will fight to the point of death from exhaustion! I thought LM had alewife, and I didn't think one could EVER run short of alewife. My knowledge of LM is nonexistent so speculation on my part isn't a useful exercise.

It's certainly not my lake and my state tax dollars don't support it I suppose if I had a great WE, SBM, Steelhead Brown Trout and Salmon fishery I may not want to introduce any additional predator species to potentially tip the balance.

I wonder if any other states ban HSB and their reasoning behind it?

LM is very low on the entire low end of the food chain right now and the alewife numbers are down. The last 4 years all states around LM have reduced the number of salmon they stock to try and help the situation out.

What else makes up the forage base - smelt and ciscoes? Are Gobies in LM?

It should be obvious why they dont want them...they're PREDATORS;
who wants predators in any body of water(tongue in cheek, ya'll). What the heck are they supposed to eat, oatmeal? What sport fish is not a predator???? Someone plse enlighten me?
I cant believe it, someone talked me into putting predators in my pond.

Not many smelt, they have been down in numbers for years. Don't know about ciscoes, never heard of them being in there and haven't caught any. There are whitefish which I have caught. Gobies there are way to many of them. A real pain when we fish for Perch. I have had multiple 100 of goby days while fishing for Perch.

How far out on the water are you fishing for perch? It sucks, but Gobies stay relatively close to piers and such. I quit fishing off the piers in Grand Haven quite a few years ago. That is where the Grand River empties out, and Grand Rapids has major sewage spills on a regular basis. Use to be good WE fishing off the Grand River, about 12-15 river miles to LM. Not anymore! Plus Browns off the pier's, them were always fun.

Michigan has not been actively stocking anything (on a regular level) due to VHSv since 2006 when VHSv was publicly announced, it is in all of the Great Lakes. Some call it the beginnings (well underway)of a mass extinction. I hope not, but, I do not have the info they have. And it is now up to a few people to make the calls. Not going to say the rest...

I love how the article, http://www.great-lakes.org/9-15-97.html they say HSB average 20-30 pounds! Heck, even pure striped bass don't average that... Talk about stretching the truth to crank up the fear level!

Agreed Travis, I think the article may have had good intentions [to preserve LM predator/prey balance] but seemed to be written by someone who lacks experience with HSB.

I did read a report from LM that said due to reducing Chinook stockings the past few years the alewife biomass has made a modest comeback. Too bad more fish can't focus on the gobie - aren't they the primary reason SMB are growing to mammoth proportions?

We're navigating away from the original post which was a search for HSB in MI - sounds like unless one wants to risk the clandestine approach it's not a possibility.

These HBS must be Monsters! I don't mind protecting the GL, but let's not go overboard. Asian Carp pose a much bigger theat to the fishery than HBS, or even stripers.

Let's face it, there isn't much native left in the GL that is thriving...

I did not write it!

Have any of you ever caught a 20+ lb King? That is a fighting machine. Specially if you have Iron down 200ft and towing it 300yd's. "Fish ON" Takes on a whole new meaning.

That is a fight you will not forget!

I would love a trip to one of the GL for a week and try for some of those 6 lb SMB, then WE, then try for some Salmon...any guide services offer a chance for the GL grand slam?

Never caught a Pacific salmon. Have caught steelhead and if they fight anything alike, it would be a great fight. I'd be interested to see how a 20 pound striper compared to a 20 pound king... A lake I fish in PA has lake trout, Atlantic salmon, rainbow and brown trout along with stripers. When trolling or bait fishing the thermocline you never know what you are going to hook into. All are great fighters, but I have to say the stripers fight the best.

Anywhere from 20 feet to 65 feet of water depending on time of year and where we are fishing. I fish for perch all alone the Indiana and Illinois shoreline. The gobies are a pain in the butt in shallower waters (under 45 feet). We don't catch many gobies in water over 45 feet deep.

I have caught many 20+ pound kings over the years and they are a ball. I much perfer catching them on downriggers, dipsies, and 2/3 color lead cores. The full core is the rod no one wants to grab. I only got out once last summer (building a pond does take alot of time) but did manage a 21 pounder on the full core. We did notice less kings caught last summer but they were bigger.

Check out around Muskegon. My brother lives there and we go all the time. Salmon in the morning, pike and bass during the day, salmon again in the evening and walleye to finish off the evening.

I disagree, Lake Erie is doing great with walleyes, perch, and smallmouth bass as does Lake Michigan. Be it that the Walleye on LM is mostly in the northern part of the lake.

Look to the UP of Michigan and little and big bay Denoc. The walleye fishing hasn't been as great lately as in the pass. Or further down into Green Bay. I haven't hired any guides in those areas but I spent a lot of time fishing there through the 90s and first half of 2000s. This is doable in that area.

Not to go too far off topic, but I fished heavily for Striped Bass, Steelhead and Salmon before our estuary was decimated. Steelies fight great better than salmon. But Striped Bass are better than both. Salmon are slow and heavy. They will pull for a long time, but don't rip out the line like stripers. One trip I caught both a 20 lb salmon and a 20 lb stiper. They fight much differently in the bay. But the salmon was easily the best fish of the day catchwise. My best ever two fish limit was a 32 and a 21. Splitshotting or fly lining live anchovies out off of Pacifica, going under the Golden Gate. Our skipper was so crazy he would back all the way in to the surf and the hull would bounce on the sand. One guy snagged a body surfer, oops. That trip I won the pool, 38 guys $3 bucks a pop. But that is all ancient history now as the salmon fishery is closed, and the striper planting program long gone. All of the bait fishes are less than 1% of thier former count.

MKG and north to the Dolly Parton's, and still further has been productive. Our center was Whitehall for the charter boat. Ran it out of MKG and Grand Haven also. Too many boats pulling iron in GH, then they cut you off and then it takes you a half mile to turn around watching what is down, then some Cigarette or sailboat comes along not watching

I think it only took three trips out dealing with that mess that we pulled the plug on GH.

Only tangles we ever had were in GH. And we usually ran two planer boards, two DD's attached to dr and four independent dr's at various levels.

Largest King (Chinook) was 38lb and that was taken by a gal on a Womans bowling league we took out. We were one of five boats, 20 gals, we had four. Headed North and Out of Whitehall. One gal was really queasy on the ride out, and then some. Once "Fish ON", the symptoms went away. She got two, as well as our other guest's aboard. We won by sheer numbers, because we limited and had to return.

We were sipping some CptMgn and munching deep fried stuff for a while at the Crosswinds, while we waited for the others to return.

Our camp was really happy that night. But get into another 16 gal ... Not for me!

Hey, I only drive the boat.

So Pond Frog explain to us what's gong on out there? Why is the forage base so far down and why did they stop the stripper planting program? I think I know but thought I'd ask.

I think I did hear the salmon numbers are way down on the west coast but no one knows for sure why?

Multiple causation and major denial. From my preNavy days peaking in late 70's there is close to nothing left. First the Salmon started going down the drain, so they blamed stripers and quit planting them, but still charged for special striper planting stamp for fishing license. Got sued. Did not help. Then they blamed pumps moving water to the famers down South, tons being found on pump screens. Cut back water. Still, populations across the obard plummet. Close all Salmon fishing, commercial and recreational, destroy the livlihood of all involved. Still nothing. Population counts on salmon show less than 9% fall run native, all hatchery fish. Almost every baitfish down to less than 1%, American Shad, Threadfin Shad, Delta smelt. Some less than 1/3 of 1% of late 70's levels. Most expert biologists say entire estuary beyond repair. And still the numbers are dropping. There are so many reasons why they don't want to do anything about. Pollution, ag run off, inadequate waste treatment, you name it, complete decimation of a ecosystem that had been here for millions of years, in less than 30. Salmon still closed, to all. Never see any large stripers anymore. Just killed the entire estuary and shrugged thier shoulders and played the blame game. At this juncture there is zero hope for recovery.

Ok, Ok, so what is "the Dolly Parton's?"

A freeway?

A lake?

A mountain range?

Ahem - so....anyone seen any good movies lately?

I wish it was a movie, I grew up fishing these rivers, lived less than a block from the Sacramento River. The Southeast Asian migration did not help either. They hook it, they keep it and eat it. Poach everything.

http://www.californiachronicle.com/articles/view/79142

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2010/sacramento-splittail-01-22-2010.html

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_207JLIntroductionR.pdf

No movie here, just the grim facts.

I hear you - I don't have much time for movies either...

All kidding aside, I'm just trying to lighten the mood a tad - thus far this post has discussed eradication of premier fisheries in the Great Lakes and now in NO Cal. It's all accurate and tragic testimony, and shameful - no one here will argue that. More reason for the migration to pond management - public fishing is wilting under the pressure and damage we're doing to the environment. Much simpler to manage one's own water....

Sorry Jeff, locals only. Not my rules! I could get into a lot of trouble explaining, because I may not do it delicately enough. Third guess is as close I dare. Add symmetry and about 400 ft ht from a couple miles out, projection... And people think mermaids are fictional This is where they come from

Pretty much last stop for me. And our local government is one step away from putting the kabosh on private ponds. I have thousands of dollars of equipment for fishing I can't use. From salmon to Pacific rockfish. Can't even fish for some of them if I wanted to. I go to Bodega Bay and the entire fishing fleet is gone, one guy is left. Baitshop is closed and it used to be packed with fishermen in the morning. I have baby photos of myself with stripers twice as long as me my father and grandfather caught. Salmon bigger than my kids on the wall in my hallway. Ponds are the last place left, as public places are either fished out or pay to play with planter trout. Not my deal. My three year old landed 8 LMB to 4 1/2 lbs in one half an hour last year in one of the ponds I manage. What will be left for my kids? Stories.

Your family is welcome to fish anytime at my place, PF.

What is the basis behind your govt stance against private ponds? Water use?

we like photos of kids with fish. Size of fish is irrelevant.
the fact that they're outdoors and not in front of a TV or video game is what's inspiring.

this is TJ's post. I doubled with him.......

+100

My oldest honor student once told me Dad, you are the only dad I know that does all this stuff with his kids. That is my number one motivation.

You would not believe what happened, Stanford law students got bored and sued Cal Fish and Game for planting fish, which they had done for over 100 years. A judge ruled in thier favor. Soon the regs come out, and they are going to hit everything, mostly planting fish and adding about 75 species to the endangered list. I have only heard rumors of what the regs are but they are extremely invasive on private pond owners. All of the pond stocking hatcheries are calling it quits or moving into food fishes or quintupling thier prices, see Aqua.

The competitive landscape for pond management companies in NE is pretty flat. Like snow, corn and good football?

There are definitely some sad stories but not all is lost nationwide...

There is still a lot of messed up things about the Potomac River my home water. But, in the last few years the American and Hickory shad have come back strong. Runs of both species are the highest they've been in 2 decades. Striped bass numbers are back from dismal lows of the 80's. You can catch them consistently when they make their spring spawning runs. Often very nice sized fish, some days til your arms hurt. The Potomac River is still one of the best tidal LMB fisheries in the world. Lot's of 2-4 pound bass with a bass or two over 10 pounds caught every year. Not bad for a public fishery on a tidal river with mostly northern LMB genes! Even with the recent introduction of snakeheads things are still going great for the LMB. I think the snakeheads will actually be an interesting addition to the river's ecosystem. A recent introduction of blue cats into the Potomac has led to a phenomenal blue cat fishery with the record being broken every other year or so and biologists except the record to go over 100 pounds in the next few years. The upper Potomac is seeing musky naturally reproducing, where they came from no one knows but they are there now and doing quite well. Same with walleye, a few original stockings in the late 70's and early 80's has led to a healthy population of fish. Smallies are also doing quite well, in spite of male fish sometimes growing ovaries and producing eggs and the occasional water quality related fish kills. There are challenges facing the fishery but a lot of organizations are working hard to improve it. The economic downturn and subsequent cut in funding isn't helping. The continual growth in the human population in the area isn't helping either... But I am not giving up yet.