As a producer of F1 hybrid largemouth bass, I found the presentation by Dr. Wes Neal to be of particular interest.
With the assumption that Dr. Neal is correct with his recommendations, we should be stocking EITHER pure strain northern LMB OR pure strain florida LMB in our ponds instead of mixing them up or stocking F1s.
Conclusion: Most of us, including me, have been screwing up big-time. How do we swallow this? How do we manage from now on in lieu of this new evidence? How do we sleep at night?
I read somewhere that it's believed that the current world record LMB may have been a naturally-occurring northern-Florida cross. And, I know that tiger bass grow exceedingly fast in the South, as evidenced by multiple posters on here stating they've had them grow three pounds per year; and obviously they hit lures much better than Floridas. So I can't see how tiger bass could be wrong all the time.
But I realize also that I may be off as to what the presentation was about, though I'm guessing it pertained to either F1 offspring being genetically inferior, or naturally-occurring Florida-northern crosses being inferior, or the offpsring of naturally-occurring Florida-northern crosses being inferior, or all of the above...Which I suppose translates to, I wish I had been there and heard the presentation! Details for those of us poor slobs who missed it?
To quote one Southern PM at the Conference, there is a wide band of intergrades (Fx's) in FL/GA/AL that have been there for 10,000 years and (in all likelihood) produced the standing world record. Where's the outbreeding depression there?
Great thread topic...I'm curious to hear more. Count me as one of the poor slobs who missed the conference.
Todd I intend to purse this with Wes Neal. Did not want to do so in public at PB III as it would seem rude. We have been over this here. At this time I do not agree with his premise. See Theo's comment.
See this thread.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=141224&fpart=1
The Florida and northern LMB cross is a natural intergrade in the northern FL, GA and AL areas. Interesting stuff...
I'm not sure he presented enough data to 100% substantiate it. But then, I'm certainly not an expert in that arena.
The problem is that F1's have been used for quite some time and this has never come up.
IMHO where outbreeding depression exists, it should affect some but not all of whatever Fx's are present due to the random recombination of genes from both parent strains. Affected individuals should tend to be eliminated in competitive situations.
I think any fish population where millions of eggs are thrown into competition yielding tens of adult survivors is extremely competitive. So maybe the outbreeding depression occurs in F1 bass offspring, but is extremely hard to ever observe.
See the link above for much more data.
Dang it I hoped to get to work and not have to post right now but could not let this one go by without a comment. I did get to clear our intake pipe again 2’ under sediment from raging creek and no water getting to fish.
Todd I was listening closely as well. However I’m posting to calm you down. I do not think we have been screwing up. If you noticed once he was done I went over to talk with him before he left. This was not new information but it hit home. My main question to him was this....What is difference in growth of plain old inbreeding amongst pure genetic bass from one source and outbreeding depression? Short answer not sure the difference (hard to research this) and doubts any significant diff in growth. Add in Theo's thoughts and makes it even less important. He did say many times age and food more important. He is doing some research in Puerto Rico and we might have a few more answers in a few years. I got his contact info and I will ask him to chime in here if he has a moment.
Question is what should we as fish stockers and consultants be doing? So did I screwup adding F1 bass all these years? I do not think so. If I added Fx from unknown source then they will still be inbreeding. If I added pure northern bass then they would top out at 8 lbs. If I added pure Florida hard to catch in a few years. Adding F1 gives best of both the worlds to original fish. So if a 5% reduction in growth in future generations still think it is best to put them in, don’t you, other thoughts?
The take home I got from this talk was good news for you and I Todd. That is to help combat inbreeding we need to add a few adult bass to some ponds that are older. Fred Bingham said his is 60 years old and never added any. Also if possible think it a good idea to get some bass from a couple of sources if possible. Mixing up the genetics as I mentioned in my talk is also good idea I feel. Also might start a trade program where I get bass from one pond and trade with another, oops wait a min then we could transfer a disease what is a consultant to do.
Thanks to you all for the replies. Appears as if my skepticism is shared amongst other forum members. Here is a copy of recent correspondence between Dr. Neal and I:
Dr. Neal,
I am glad to have seen your presentation at the PB conference. As a recognized producer of the now infamous F1 largemouth I am somewhat concerned about the implications of outbreeding depression.
I have a few questions for you. If you have the time to respond that would be very much appreciated.
About how many years or generations does it take for significant depression to occur with F1s?
How does the mixing of pure strains (50F:50N or 70F:30N or 33F:33N:33F1s) as lmb are stocked initially influence genetic depression down the road?
How do you recommend that growers in my position deal with ponds/lakes that have already been stocked with F1s only or mixed pure strains in the future?
Pure northern lmb are available almost year-round due to the fact that they are easily feed-trained. This makes larger fingerlings available for good survival rates. However, as you probably know, pure florida bass are difficult to feed-train and so they are only available in May-July time frame at a small size. Given this practical consideration, what is your recommendation for stocking existing lmb ponds with more bass fingerlings for genetic enhancement/inbreeding relief?
Thanks again for your presentation. For me this information may have more impact on the industry than any other presentation at the conference.
Then his reply:
Todd:
I have modified the following description of outbreeding depression from the Wikipedia description:
“Outbreeding depression refers to cases when offspring from crosses between individuals from different populations have lower fitness than progeny from crosses between individuals from the same population. This phenomenon can occur in two ways. First, selection in one population might produce a large body size, whereas in another population small body size might be more advantageous. Gene flow between these populations may lead to individuals with intermediate body sizes, which may not be adaptive in either population.
A second way outbreeding depression can occur is by the breakdown of biochemical or physiological compatibilities between genes in the different populations. Within local, isolated populations, alleles are selected for their positive, overall effects on the local genetic background. Due to non-additive gene action, the same genes may have rather different average effects in different genetic backgrounds--hence, the potential evolution of locally co-adapted gene complexes. In other words, individuals from Population A will tend to have genes selected for the quality of combining well with gene combinations common in Population A. However, genes found in Population A will not have been selected for the quality of crossing well with genes common in Population B.
However, it is critical to understand that reduced inbreeding depression in first generation hybrids can, in some circumstances, be strong enough to more than make up for outbreeding depression. Because of this and because of the uniformity and predictable outcome of a first generation hybrid (F1 hybrid) farmers keep purebred strains for the purpose of outcrossing. Crossing the hybrids will give unpredictable outcomes and outbreeding depression will remain or worsen so that is not common practice.
As a general rule of thumb, hybrid vigor (another way of saying a reduction of inbreeding depression) is strongest in first generation hybrids and gets weaker over time. In contrast, outbreeding depression can be relatively weak in the first generation. But outside the context of ruthless selective pressure, outbreeding depression will increase in power through the further generations as co-adapted gene complexes are broken apart without the forging of new co-adapted gene complexes to take their place.
It is important to keep in mind that these two mechanisms of outbreeding depression can be operating at the same time. However, determining which mechanism is more important in a particular population is very difficult.”
So to answer your question – no one really knows! I relate the bass situation to the hybrid bream. The first generation is great, but the F2, F3, and subsequent generations are much less desirable. I don’t think hybrid bass will experience this deterioration to the same extremes or as rapidly, because the parent fish are much more closely related than bluegill and green sunfish. In fact, many would argue that we have precious few pure strain populations left, and many suspect that the world record Georgia bass was an intergrade between the two bass strains.
I tell people that if they already have hybrid bass, don’t worry about it. Manage for food and age and you’ll be fine. However, will selecting a fish to stock, I think the safest bet is to stock a pure strain.
It is very difficult to make predictions about different stocking ratios of pure fish, since bass don’t necessarily spawn randomly. However, if you assume random spawning, a gross approximation of genetic composition (percent of population) following stocking at a 50:50 ratio would be:
Gen 1: 25%F, 25%N, 50%F1
Gen 2: 6.25%F, 6.25%N, 12.5%F1, 75%Fx
Gen 3: .39%F, .39%N, .78%F1, 98%Fx
Gen 4: 0%F, 0%N, 0%F1, 100%Fx
Hence, by the third generation the reproductive output is primarily Fx hybrids. The stocked fish and the first two generations would provide superior growth for probably 10-12 years or so, but after that you should see the effects of outbreeding depression.
Further forum digestion would be appreciated.
I'm gonna hafta ruminate on that for a while.
Thanks Greg!! I am not worried about this really, but I do admit that I had not heard or read about it before the conference presentation and I was a bit shocked.
With a typical carrying capacity of 50lbs of bass per acre, assuming 1/2 of those fish are mature females that spawn each season, we have the introduction of up to around 125,000 bass fry per acre per year to that system. Those that hatch early have an advantage (most of the time), but otherwise it is the most fit of individuals that survive and reach maturity. Additionally, with some bass harvest, addition of new genetics, etc, I don't expect outbreeding depression to be a serious player in most cases.
All:
I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest with this one. As I tried to explain during the talk, this is not a major concern in pond management because genetics are secondary to food, age, and water temperature. However, outbreeding depression is clearly demonstrated in other agriculture. Farmers raise F1 hybrid corn, but they never save the seeds for replanting. Why? Because the subsequent generation does not perform as well. Now bass are not corn, and Florida bass and northern bass are much more similar than the parents of many hybrid species. In reality, we probably will never empiracally test it, since it would take 10 to 20 years to trully demonstrate, and there are too many confounding factors to sort out. I would be more worried about inbreeding depression - that is small gene pool - than outbreeding depression. However, if you would like some follow up reading, I list a few studies that you can check out below. You'll notice similar names on all of the papers because they are the primary researchers working with bass genetics. One study that addressed the potential for outbreeding depression is:
Philipp, D. P., J. E. Claussen, T. W. Kassler, and J. M. Epifanio. 2002. Mixing stocks of largemouth bass reduces fitness through outbreeding depression. Pages 349-363 in D. P. Philipp and M. S. Ridgeway, editors. Black bass: ecology, conservation, and management. American Fisheries Society, Symposium 31, Bethesda, Maryland.
This study did not directly test the outbreeding depression of F1 hybrids but instead it looked at the effect of stocking one genetic stock on the other. However, the mechanism is the same.
Dave Philipp had several earlier papers that addressed the potential for later generation intergrades to have reduced performance:
Philipp, D. P. 1991. Genetic implications of introducing Florida largemouth bass. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 48 (Supplement 1):58-65.
Philipp, D. P. 1992. Stocking Florida largemouth bass outside its native range. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 121:688-691.
Philipp, D. P., and G. S. Whitt. 1991. Survival and growth of northern, Florida, and reciprocal F1 hybrid largemouth bass in Central Illinois. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 120:58-64.
Another paper that I recommend is:
Kassler, T. W., J. B. Koppelman, T. J. Near, et al. 2002. Molecular and morphological analyses of the black basses: implications for taxonomy and conservation. Pages 291-322 in D. P. Philipp and M. S. Ridgeway, editors. Black bass: ecology, conservation, and management. American Fisheries Society, Symposium 31, Bethesda, Maryland.
In this manuscript, the authors offer substantial evidence that suggests "Florida bass" and "largemouth bass" are two separate species.
Think about it, stew over it, but I hope you talk nicely about me in the end
Still not sure that I understand and it is due to my ignorance on the science.
Exactly what is outbreeding?
First of all, Im glad people like Dr. Neal are doing these kinds of studies. Its really interesting and helpful for us pond junkies. Thanks Dr. Neal
I like the last paragraph of Dr. Neal's explanation.
"Hence, by the third generation the reproductive output is primarily Fx hybrids. The stocked fish and the first two generations would provide superior growth for probably 10-12 years or so, but after that you should see the effects of outbreeding depression."
What im getting from that is as long as you reintroduce a few pure strain Floridas, or Northerns or even true F1's every year or even every couple years you will be fine. Neal is talking 10-12 years down the road for the originals!!
Am I missing something or is that a correct interpretation?
Im working with right at 50 acres of water here on the ranch with all sorts of goals for each BOW. If I think that I can stock ponds once and not do any corrective stocking for 10-12 years, A) thats just boring and no fun and B) I don't think i would be taking the mananging seriously if I had clear-cut goals to accomplish. To be actively managing a pond its something that you don't just start up and leave, you have to make alterations and in this case New genetics additions to keep your fishery healthy and performing to its max.
Well, so far so good. I cant drag a beetle spin across the pond without getting a hit. I am starting to cull bass and bg after being assured the lmb spawned. the hsb seem to be helping with the sized bg that the lmb have outgrown. plus, they are feedhogs as are the F1s..
I agree with Ewest that the Miss. Biologists that post on the forum are ultra cautious in their recommendations due to their experience that most of the ponds will not be managed the least bit.
So Dr. Neal's presentation is actually great news for me!!!
You all need to be restocking LMB fingerlings every year or two to keep the gene pool fresh!!
I have a decent supply of F1 fingerlings right now, come to think of it.
So Dr. Neal's presentation is actually great news for me!!!
You all need to be restocking LMB fingerlings every year or two to keep the gene pool fresh!!
I have a decent supply of F1 fingerlings right now, come to think of it.
Fun-ny (but true).
Let me answer Dave first - Outbreeding depression can occur in several ways, but the one I am most concerned about is through the breakdown of biochemical or physiological compatibilities between genes in the different populations. For example, Florida bass have genes (genetic material) selected for positive, overall effects that are produced when combined with other Florida bass genes. Due to nonadditive gene action, the same genes may have rather different average effects when combined with northern bass genes. In other words, Florida bass will tend to have genes selected for the quality of combining well with gene combinations common in in othe Florida bass. However, Florida bass genes will not have been selected for the quality of crossing well with genes common in northern populations.
Yes, the world record bass was probably an intergrade between the two; but that intergrade had many thousands of years to select for the right genes for its habitat. That is very different than artificially mixing genetic material in the short term.
As for Chadwick71's question, think about it this way. Say you come into a 20 year old pond that was originally stocked with F1s. It is all Fx at that time, and you supplementally stock 10% more bass that are pure Florida. Only 1% of the next generation will be pure Florida, and 99% will be Fx fish, because they are breeding with Fx fish. So you have a limited effect with supplemental stocking. Stocking F1s will give 100% Fx the next generation.
Generation Fl No F1 Fx
20 years 10.00 0.00 0.00 90.00
Gen 1 (%) 1.00 0.00 0.00 99.00
Gen 2(%) 0.01 0.00 0.00 99.99
But for you fish producers, imagine what could be accomplished with a sterile (triploid) F1 hybrid! You could take two approaches. Approach 1 would be to stock only triploid F1s every year and have a completely controlled population with hybrid vigor! Approach 2 would be to establish a Florida bass population and then supplement with triploid F1s - this would maintain genetic integrity while also providing F1s to catch.
Triploids aren't 100% triploid as you well know and so would have to be individually tested as juveniles to weed out the diploids. Those bass may cost around $10 ea by that time.
Then after all that work we may get an accidental introduction of male and female LMB via natural transportation.....then what?
That's fisheries management! The truth is that none of this is that important. If we go 20 years and find out that Fx's are good, no harm no foul. If we find out they are bad, rotenone and start over. That is the beauty of working in small systems. I think F1's can play a role, but it is may duty as a scientist and an Extension educator to make people aware or the potential effects of any management activity. For example, do I think tilapia can escape for a Mississippi pond and establish in coastal rivers? Absolutely! Are they good for bass forage and filamentous algae control in ponds? Absolutely! It is tha job of the pond managers and state wildlife officials to weight the evidence and make decisions.
True, True! I understand. This information has great potential influence on my business and on the decisions of pond owners across the country. I appreciate the insight.
Welcome to the Forum, Dr. Neal!
I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest with this one. As I tried to explain during the talk, this is not a major concern in pond management because genetics are secondary to food, age, and water temperature.
Yes Sir, I believe you may have done just that, helped by our communal ability to agree on 99% of a subject and argue about the 1% we disagree on.
Thanks Dr. Neal. I absolutely missed the part regarding the introduction of native bass genes.
So, to maintain "hybrid vigor" and to deny the opportunity for outbreeding of mutts we add only new Floridas to the gene pool.
The way I understand it, there is no way to deny the opportunity of outbreeding after either the F1s OR a mix of the two strains have been introduced. The key would be to stock pure strain and keep it as pure as possible by restocking down the line with same strain as the originals, but possibly a different source.
Todd,
Thats the way I see it as well. Only thing is, isn't that what most of us have been saying all along. I feel like we have made a circle with this thread and are back where we were originally. Except its actually a good thing to be back at what was originally believed about outbreeding, F1's, and correcting it.
Todd, what do you mean by "strain"? I'm trying to really get this down.
Wes, I guess I do not need to contact you to join in. thanks so much and I fully understand you had your arm twisted to cover this topic. You did a great job of expressing your views. I'm overwhelmed right now with work/calls due to floods but will keep an eye on this topic. As mentioned American Sportfish has been working on the backcross Female bass and will let you know current status.
Yes Todd I was saying that was good news from business persepctive. Good seeing you btw and if you find big bass we will take them.
Stocking Florida bass on top of a Fx population will NOT maintain hybrid vigor. Once the population is Fx, the new Florida fish can either spawn with other new Florida fish, making Florida fish, or they can spawn with Fx fish, making Fx fish. The only way to make an F1 hybrid is for Florida and Northern bass to spawn together. Even if you replaced 50% of the Fx bass population with Florida bass, you'll end up with 25% Florida bass by generation 1, and 6% Florida bass by generation 2, with nearly all fish Fx by generation 3.
Generation Fl No F1 Fx
Refresher 50.00 0.00 0.00 50.00
Gen 1 (%) 25.00 0.00 0.00 75.00
Gen 2 (%) 6.25 0.00 0.00 93.75
Gen 3 (%) 0.39 0.00 0.00 99.61
Short of frequently removing large numbers of small Fx bass and stocking pure or F1 bass, the population will always shift to an Fx population in just a few genreations.
Dave, when I mention strain I am referring to what I thought were sub-species such as either pure floridas or pure northerns, but now I understand that the scientific community has accepted these two 'strains' as two different species entirely. So I'll have to get used to calling them different species.
Greg, thanks and good to see you as well.
Thanks Wes for posting on PB. You will find this a very inquisitive group. Guys go read the link I posted earlier for some of the science and the note about what Wes' job is. Wes you will always be a PB friend and respected with us no matter if a hornets nest is stirred up or if there is disagreement. Disagreement here is common but always respectful and open to change as we learn more. I know I have had at least 3 different opinions on some topics due to new info and study.
This is true cutting edge stuff that is not proved ( long term studies) as to F-1s or Fx specifically but is the application of general principals of genetics to the idea. There is so much we don't know yet and as Wes noted the more important point is food , water quality , and age. There are natural populations of Fxs in the intergraded zone that don't show outbreeding depression as noted by and in the TX studies linked. We can all watch my pond 3 and lets see what happens. It is stocked with TX Overton pure Flas , Northerns from Greg and F-1s from ASF. In three years +- we will sample some 8-12 inch fish and see pics/results and genetic testing. Keep in mind that quality fish local to your area are locally adapted for your area ( don't put fish from Ohio in a southern pond nor MS fish in Ohio). Local adaptation is very important. The bigger risk IMO is inbreeding - genetic regression (to few genes from to small a source)over time.
Much to learn on this topic and additional studies over time will help.
Todd and Wes need clarificaiton. I swtiched from use of strain to sub species term a few yeas ago. Todd you sure it is now species???
Dave Philipp made the case for two separate species in 200, but I don't believe that it has been formally accepted yet. The book "Common and Scientific Names of Fishes from the United States, Canada, and Mexico" published in 2004 does not distiguish the two as separate species. That book is generally considered the authority by most scientists. For all intents and purposes, a sub-species and strain are the same thing.
That should have said in 2000.
OK Wes thanks, I read that article that you recommended and based my comments on that, but I'll stick with sub-species or strain for now.
Hey Eric, and thanks for the "warm" welcome all. I agree completely with Eric that inbreeding is much more of a concern. However, I want to argue one point...
You cannot compare intergrade bass (have both strain's alleles) that are naturally produced and adapted over 1000s of years with Fx generation hybrids produced through man-made causes in a small pond. The natural intergrades have had much time to select for the genes from both sides that best fit their environment. Thus, the "bad" combinations have been weeded out. No such selective pressures occur in ponds in the time frames we are discussing, so the bad combinations will persist and their inferior traits may become evident in only a few generation. That is the risk of outbreeding depression.
Enlightening discussion. Hopefully the mods will add this to the archives.
Congratulations, Wes. You're up to 7 posts.
Congratulations, Wes. You're up to 7 posts.
Look out, CJ.
Congratulations, Wes. You're up to 7 posts.
Look out, CJ.
There's the pot calling the kettle black...
Genetics are extremely interesting to me, but wasn't an area I studied heavily in college. However, this truly groundbreaking stuff! I am very curious to see how Eric's pond turns out... I am very intrigued by the map Eric posted with the genetics of the bass from different areas of the country. Particularly areas where LMB were not native.
Related to the topic of inbreeding and outbreeding, when stocking a new pond particularly a large one where thousands of one fish would be stocked or at least several hundred... Would it be a good idea to source those fish from several or at least a couple different sources so as to help guarantee genetic variance amoungst the fish in your pond? At what time down the road should you add new genetics to your bass, BG, etc... 5 years, 10 years?
I had no idea we had a 5 digit poster in our midst. been staying away too much.
.... Related to the topic of inbreeding and outbreeding, when stocking a new pond particularly a large one where thousands of one fish would be stocked or at least several hundred... Would it be a good idea to source those fish from several or at least a couple different sources so as to help guarantee genetic variance amoungst the fish in your pond? At what time down the road should you add new genetics to your bass, BG, etc... 5 years, 10 years?
If stocking in the thousands I would source from different genetics. One hatchery could do this but you should be sure they understand and then ask them to explain what exactly they are going to do. On pond 3 I got CNBG and RES and FH and TShad from 2 sources Todd and SEP and LMB from 3 sources Greg , ASF , and Todd. The BG from Todd were from 2 sources his and George.
Would it be a good idea to source those fish from several or at least a couple different sources so as to help guarantee genetic variance amoungst the fish in your pond?
Ewest's answer is much better than mine, but my simple answer to your question would be "yes." It certainly couldn't hurt as long as you trust each supplier and know exactly what you're getting.
Our original LMB stockers came from 3 different hatcheries. We went that route because of genetics (and redneck common sense).
Speaking of going full circle. Lets not forget the reason we stock F1s in small southern ponds. I am hoping that between selective harvest of inferior fish, original stockers doing the same by foraging on subsequent generations and maintaining a poundage of fish that can be supported by the pond, that I have made a wise decision.
If not, I can always stock a couple of flatheads.
edit: I do think this could be valuable information for hatcheries to consider.
It's my opinion also that you should stock from multiple sources, whether through the same hatchery guy or completely different hatcheries. As long as you let your fish supplier know what your intended goals are and as davasta said, you trust them...
Trust is a huge factor. About 10 years ago I started looking for pure Floridas. Among others, I contacted Bill Wingo, a local and highly reputable Pro and was told that he was having trouble finding them. He was finding, through sampling, about a 5 to 10% mix. I appreciated his honesty.
I had not realized that most Florida bass carry some intergrade genes.
This thread has reinforced something I said years ago regarding experts. All of us here, regardless of education and/or experience, have a similar outlook. We are simply students sharing our experiences. Thanks to all, especially Dr. Neal, for reminding us of that.
I agree that stocking from multiple sources may be a good idea. However, Dave Davidson's comment about the impurity of pure strain fish is a major concern. Despite what some people claim, the only accurate way to tell a Florida bass from a northern bass is genetically, so it is real easy to accidentally contaminate a pure strain population. We plan to test fish from a few hatcheries this spring - I will report on what we find.
No one has really looked at the time needed between gene pool refreshments. I would guess that every 5-10 years would be good, and is certainly better than never.
Thanks Wes we would sure like to hear the results. Thanks again for the help and comments.
Wes said "...the only accurate way to tell a Florida bass from a northern bass is genetically ...."
True ! That is why I got Flas from Todd as they were from genetically tested stock , and why Greg got the Northerns from a So Ill hatchery with no chance of Fla input and the F-1s from ASF who's fish are tested. There still could be a rouge gene but we did what we could to avoid the possibility. One more reason to know your fish sources guys.
At the very minimum, we can say that the conference successfully netted (no pun intended) us one more professional to add into the mix for the forum.
Thanks Dr. Neal!
Hey Doc Neal, hang around. We haven't had a thread this good in some time.
Overton Fisheries provides pure genetically tested Florida LMB.
Documentation of tests are provided on Todd's website.
http://www.overtonfisheries.com/LinkClick.aspx?link=floridatesting.BMP&tabid=66&mid=392
Thanks George, FYI we tested fingerlings again this summer and got 100% pure Florida results and I have just completed the link to that documentation as well. The previous testing was done in 2005, and we have the same broodstock at this time.
OK, that is one. So far, only one hatchery that WE know of with pure Floridas. To mix up the pure gene pool, we need another one with a certification that didn't come from Todd or is different that the batch Todd started with. Who else?
BTW, I knew about THE ONE.
Hmm.. only ONE that might mean prices are going up, at least that is what we learned in economic class when taught about supply and demand. Seriously kudos to Todd for testing. Many hatcheries claim pure florida but do not test probably in fear of the truth of not pure. I know Todd's are swimming around in Jeff Foxworthy lake.
Several others . Last I checked ASF and Suttle did.
I have a possible solution for new ponds and lakes that doesn't sacrifice the characteristics of the tiger bass:
What about stocking new ponds and lakes with fingerling LMBs from a local private hatchery that used trophy bass for broodstock? What if those broodfish were harvested via angling only? Like a private Share-lunker program possibly? Selecting large males from a wild population along with large females from a wild population as broodstock OR breeding lunker females with pure strain florida or pure strain norther in order to sway the genetic future possibly.
Wes you should comment on this idea....
Anyone know what sub-species that TPWD crosses their lunker females LMB with??
The idea of taking proven females and males performing well in a local climate via angling methods only sure does select for a great genetic potential for their offspring fingerlings.
OH
Another option is for low fishing pressure instances or where live bait fishing is practiced or if you are a skilled angler:
Stock pure florida only, then when it is time for you to harvest crowded bass you can leverage this pure strain commodity with a pond management company in exchange for services rendered. Availability of pure florida juveniles and adults is very limited.
We stocked 100 fingerling Overton pure strain Florida LMB in a 1/4 acre grow-out pond last October, to grow out for stocking in main pond.
Anxious to determine survival rate in HSB/CNBG pond.
Our plan is to maintain pure Florida strain LMB in this pond.
Todd - Selective breeding like you suggest is theoretically possible. Several studies recently have demonstrated a genetic link to catchability, not only between strains, but within strains as well. And Texas has been breeding lunker bass to lunker bass for some time now hoping to skew the genetics towards fast growing fish.
Of the biggest 20 bass taken in Texas waters, all were Florida or at least had a significant proportion of Florida alleles. My *Guess* is that they are primarily breeding Floridas, but that is only a guess.
The idea of trading small bass for services is an interesting one. When removing bass using angling, you catch and remove the "biters," and leave the "non-biters" to grow and spawn. By managing harvest using electrofishing, you would be randomly removing fish regardless of their aggressiveness, and should not be influencing the catchability of the remaining population.
Here are 2 links to recent threads on the catchability topic. It includes the 2 studies TX and ILL. There is a recent article in PB mag on the topic reviewing these studies.
Largemouth 'catchability' may be inherited
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post159224How much fishing is too much?
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181009&fpart=1Here is part of one study from AFS - see red text.
Admixture Analysis of Florida Largemouth Bass and
Northern Largemouth Bass using Microsatellite Loci
DIJAR J. LUTZ-CARRILLO*
CHRIS C. NICE, TIMOTHY H. BONNER, AND MICHAEL R. J. FORSTN
LORAINE T. FRIES
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 135:779–791, 2006
Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 2006
We found no evidence of a heterotic effect (in terms
of size) resulting from first-generation crosses between
Florida largemouth bass and northern largemouth bass.
The majority of trophy-sized fish with an admixed
genome were later-generation hybrids with a larger
percentage of Florida largemouth bass alleles. There
was also no observable negative impact on size from
the admixed genetic background in these fish, most
likely because of the modified environment to which
they were introduced and the nonadaptive radiation of
micropterids (Near et al. 2003).
All,
I have stocked my 1/7/8" acre pond with OLLY Overton Bass, 75 LMB with 25 CBLMB. I only started culling in the last couple of months and I may be bass heavy according to my catche wewight results this year.
I am game for anyone who may want some pure Florida strain Overton Bass offspring. My original stock was 4 years ago this summer.
Heck, for a real cold beer, maybe 2 or 3, I would be willing to part with a few lbs.....lol
Coupe
What a generous offer. Coupe, you make me proud to be a Louisianan and a member of PB! If I can help a fellow PB member some time, I hope to emulate your good example.
A couple of questions for you. First, you mentioned 75 LMB and 25 CBLMB. Do I understand correctly that the 75 are also pure Floridas, though not CB? So the offspring are all pure Floridas, but with a mixture of CB and non CB?
Second, would it be possible for someone to go down there and sex the bass? My main pond isn't built yet, but I'd love to stash some pure female Floridas in a small growout pond and feed them up. Maybe this is impossible due to distance -- Marshall, TX (where my land is) is a long way from Washington, LA -- but it would be fun to try.
Anyway, thanks for the kind offer. If I can't swing it, I'm sure there are others who will jump at the chance!
Coupe, I think this might be a good time to ask this question. Since you have stocked 100% pure Florida's and now they are in the 4 year, have you had any problem catching the Florida's with artificial baits? I would think the answer would be no. Maybe because of the number of them or maybe because of their size? Me, I have little concern that my future stocking of the pure Florida's will hamper me from catching them. What are you seeing? And what size LMB after 4 yr's growth?
Tracy
Tracy, I'm not sure this thing about "catchability" problems with pure Florida LMB is not exagerated.
Some maybe, but mostly from cactch and release causing conditioning problems or lack of angler skill.
I seldom target our pure Overton Floridas but when I need to cull they are easy to catch due to no fishng pressure.
I caught 12 in one aftrnoon in a couple of hours on a rattle trap last year. We are culling heavy to increse CBLMB genetics and we took out more thn 70 past year and a half - 22 since November.
May have something due to lack of experience of angler.
Anyway, just my thoughts - I don't think you will have a problem.
George
You and I are on the same page George. I think the Florida's are catchable. But I thought the question was a good one
And since he is here in Louisiana I was interested in his growth rates of the LMB. Assuming he has plenty of forage fish and he is not overstocked with his LMB.
Tracy
Anthropic,
I have a quote from Ewest which answers your question, I think,
Ewest Commnets quote:
"If the 75 are Fla strain you will not be able to tell genetically the difference between them and CB because I don't think that can be measured yet. Fla , northern and F-1 or Fxs can be genetically determined (not cheap to do and only a few places can do so). Cross breeding in this context means crossing 2 distinct species not 2 strains of LMB or 2 types of Fla LMB. For example if 2 humans have a baby it is not a cross as both parents are human (one species). End of Quote.
Maybe Todd Overton will join in and set the record straight on your question......
TGW1,
We have been catching LMB on beetle spins, white crank baits, silver rattle traps, H&H spinner baits, black jigs off bottom, live worms and the kids prefered method......live bluegill....2-3" hooked through the back.
Quote from 10 year old girl, We raised the worms to catch the bluegill which we used to catch the LMB.....I am "The Fishing Queen" Dad....
My catch data of LMB are as follows
2013
11" 0.5625
11" 0.5625
12" 0.625
12" 1.0625
12.6" 1.6875
12.0" 1.1875
14" 1.5625
12.5" 0.875
12" 0.9375
15" 2.4375
17" 2.3125
18" 2.5625
15" 1.8125
11" 0.5
14" 1.5
2014
16.5" 2.375
16.5" 2.063
14.5" 2.063
12" 0.813
10.5" 0.500
8.5" 0.563
11" 0.500
11" 0.500
15" 1.313
14" 1.313
17" 2.313
17" 2.563
17" 2.188
2015
15.25" 0.875
12" 0.5625
13" 0.9375
11.75" 0.4375
12" 0.5000
19" 3.875
14" 1.438
15" 1.813
15" 1.000
11.25" 0.625
As we can all see, it appears my latest catch weights are well below WR.
Coupe
TGW1,
We are seeing a bunch of smaller bass being caught lately. The feeder has been off and the smaller BG are hanging around that shallow area so the smaller bass are patrollking the shore line. Since the kids love to fish for the CNBG / BG around the feeder, they catch a few small LMB here and there.
I had a friend that wanted some offspring of the CB so a couple of weeks ago we attempted to catch some LMB but it had been raining for awhile, the water was muddy and catching was slow. We pulled 5 out, tagged each and then transported to friends 12 acre lake. All were under RW. We were hoping to catch some of the 100 original LMB but was unsuccessful.
We have sinced turned on the feeder feeding 7 times a day, about 13 seconds total feed time. The fish are really turning on, catfish and HSB are really hitting the food hard. Actually, we have pulled 2 CC out that were caught on a small BG on a hook while they were feeding on the Aquamax feed. 5.5 lb and 4.3 lb. These CC are 2-1/2 years old.
So, plan forward is pulling out all LMB under 16", removing all LMB under 85% RW, increase feeding from supplemental to adding lots of weight, put fish trap back into water and see what small BG/CNBG we can catch and monitor their sizes.....contemplating electroshocking....chatting back and forth with Mr. Greg Grimes right now...want to remove last 7 CC that was originally stocked 4-1/2 years ago....last one caught was over 10 lbs....I think they, CC, are hammering the small BG, heavy on small LMB.....just my less than amature guess at this point....
Coupe
Thanks Coupd, I am thinking you are needing to thin back the lmb numbers, and looks like they will bite on most any lmb baits, artificial or natural.
Sounds like the 10 yr old, "Little Fishing Queen" is having a great time getting her string stretched.
Do you have an idea of what your bluegill stocking ratio to LMB was when you started this fun. And would you change anything to this point? And if you did change something, why ?
Thanks
Tracy
TGW1,
Yes, I have no doubt I need to cut back on my LMB. They will be spawing here shortly and then summer time coming, we should be able to get them knocked back.
The self proclaimed "Fishing Queen" is one of a kind. Last summer brother in law and his wife came by to gather a few fish to take home but fishing was slow. I told brother in law that I will get the fishing queen to come with us...he laughed, said whatever, its not like I don't know how to fish. Well, fishing queen hauled in 23 CNBG, BG, brother in law, notta, zip, sister in law had 1 7 lb cat and 1 4 lb LMB. Nothing else......He is a believer of "The Fishing Queen". lol, To top it off, she explained each fish to him, telling a male from female by the flap, NBG from CNBG....He was schooled just a lil bit....lol
My stocking was 1,000 CNBG, 500 NBG, 300 RE, waited 6 month and added 75 FLMB, 25 CB, 20 HSB, 25 CC. With the pond at full pool of 1-7/8 acres and knowing she would get as low as 1 acre with the droubt at that time, I stocked for a 1 acre pond.
What would I change?
1.I would have stocked all fish from Overtons but did not know of his exsistance at that time when I purchased the CNBG, NBG, RE.
2. I would have added 300 additional CNBG in January for 3 years straight to build up my forage base.
3. I would have started harvesting LMB last summer instead of waiting till this year.
4. I would have went with all CB for the pond. That would have meant waiting till the following year to be able to afford the bass plus a full year to let my forage base build.
5. I would not change the LMB stocking ration, as you can see, I have LMB heavy right now or at least starting to look that way. My goal was large LMB, 5-7 lb range for the kids, plus smaller but that was my LMB weight limit.
6. I would have tagged every LMB I put in there, all 100 of them...once again, fund limited but should have waited. That data would be irreplacable if I had it now.
If I do the electroshock thing, I will tag every LMB that is original and above RW that I would be keeping.
Coupe
Sounds like you have a good handle on what should be done, Coupe. And really you didn't make any big mistakes in the original stocking, at least nothing that can't corrected. Ratio of 18 to 1 BG to LMB is pretty good, after all.
Re the CC, are they able to spawn in your pond? Do you see small ones? If not, that will make it much easier to reduce their numbers. From what I've heard, though, CC are plenty smart and very hard to fool after they've been caught, so you might consider taking out every one you catch.
By the way, does Louisiana allow tilapia in a private pond? They could help keep down FA and feed the LMB at the same time, especially when the temps get cool and they become sluggish.
I think this may be a good time to comment about the status of TGW1's lake progress:
We have stocked the fathead minnows, redear sunfish, coppernose bluegill, all as small size 1-3" fish. With the coppernose bluegill I was lucky enough to have some 4"-6" brooder size thread fin shad mixed in. Almost forgot, also 5 lbs of tilapia LOL.
I don't intend to specify the numbers that have been stocked, but TGW1 can if he wants to. I will say that we intended to stock many more threadfins than we were able to acquire, and I am sorry about that. This shad pond has few reserve CB Broodstock (to keep em fat) that apparently spawned last year, and there were few camelot bell fingerlings in the mix. These are impossible to pick out 100% in the short time that is required to handle threadfin shad. If your shad order had been intended for an existing bass lake then this mix would have been a BONUS!!. But since you are starting fresh and building baitfish, we had to throw in the towel on this particular deal for fear of trashing the program.
My two other shad ponds experienced winter kill this year, unfortunately, as they were smaller size shad in shallow ponds 4' deep. The larger shad seem to handle the cold better. I watched crows all winter long hauling off struggling shad. I am devoting 3 ponds to thread fin shad production this spring, and small shad from this program will be available by July time frame. These will be yours, TGW1, if you still want em by that time.
This is a critical time to tell you, TGW1, that in some ways, the ball is in your court right now. In my opinion, the most important thing you should be thinking about right now is plankton. With abundant plankton, all of these baitfish will expand population by leaps and bounds. I have seen farm pond production of 50k-100k coppernose bluegill or threadfin shad per surface acre. This kind of production is possible in a new pond, starting from scratch, with good water quality and a plankton bloom. Walt said your pond was really looking good, and so I think you are on the right track. Watch out for submerged aquatic vegetation and algae. Nip it in the bud as soon as you see it pop up, because you want all available nutrients to feed plankton. If you are getting a bloom with inorganic fertilizer then proceed and monitor visibility. If you aren't getting a plankton bloom, and don't have weed or algae problems, don't be afraid to ask me about some organic fertilizers. I also recommend you apply for your grass carp permit and stock a few grass carp per acre to PREVENT submerged aquatic vegetation problems.
By June you should have spoils of baitfish. Proceed with 100% camelot bell fingerlings as planned. If you become a baitfish farmer (manage for plankton production), maintain good water quality, feed pellets, control water weeds/algae, then I would not be surprised by some bass over 10lbs in three years time. Managing submerged weeds and algae is critical for maintaining steady progress.
I can't wait to watch what you do with this lake over time..
Hey, Todd, Frank here. I had the opportunity to meet you at the Pond Boss conference after hearing all the glowing reports about your integrity & knowledge. Didn't realize you were so (relatively) young!
Re the Camelot Bell, I can believe in their good genetics and trophy potential. What concerns me as a grandpa with three grandkids is catchability, which of course is always a question asked about pure Florida LMB.
What do you see & hear about this issue? Are CB as catchable as other Floridas, or more so, or less so? How do they compare with F1s in this aspect in your judgment?
PS Sorry to ask a question you've heard a million times, but there are some folks whose opinions I have great respect for, and you are one of them.
Thanks for this Sept 09 thread here Todd. And Thank you for the help with this new 3.5 acre pond today. 3/15.
Stocking numbers are
6,700 CNBG (1 to 3")
1,850 RES
130 lbs FHM
5 lbs Tilapia (30-4" fish)
200 to 300 4" brooders of TFS (some in November some in March) And more to come in July
850+- Native crawfish
Note to others who are considering Overtons Fishery. Todd has not charged me for any of the TFS. He was not able to go with the heavy TFS stocking due to this yr's winter kill but he still threw some brooders in and at No Charge. Their desire to please the customer is a Game winner for me. Not even to mention the Floridia Camalot Bell Jumper LMB fingerlings they have.
Todd, the Grass carp permit has been filed and we are waiting for the permit which should be here by late May.
We will Fertilize this Texas Pond as soon as the water temps hit 65, water is now @ 64.
Pond is free of weeds with little FA. Some Fa is there but the snow and ice we had with the 42 degree water we had just in the past 3 weeks has set the FA back.
I am waiting on you Amego, for the 10,000 TFS
I am trying to kid with you here
We are going to set 2 more Texas Hunter feeders and that will give us 3. For getting the CNBG growing ASAP. presently feeding Cargils.
10 lb Lmb in 3 Yrs. Now everyone knows our Goals here. lol
And for those who want to know the LMB ratio? It can be estimated @ this time using 150 LMB which will arrive @ the pond in or around June 1st 2015.
HSB are also going into this pond this fall.
Tracy
Tracy, my head's spinning. Your forage numbers should really set your pond up well. Congrats.
And I agree, Todd is a stand up guy who really knows his fish. I've told him several times I'm glad he's 3 hours away, or I'd be broke.
Al, when u and I met @ PBC we discussed the catchability of lmb when the forage numbers are high. So I am guessing we will find out
Keep your fly rod close
Tracy
Yep, I'm still not sure what the magic ratio is for forage/LMB when catchability is a issue, but you having the 3 feeders can certainly be used as tools to both feed the CNBG, and make the CBLMB more approachable. My largest LMB feed at the feeders. The CNBG eat the pellets, and the LMB eat the CNBG. It's the circle of life.
Al, if Todd thinks there is a possibility here of 10 lb CBLMB in 3 yrs?? Whoa A big lmb when I was growing up was 6 lbs.
Tracy
Yeah, as a kid I remember thinking anything over 4 or 5 lbs was a big fish, and really it is. But the march of science in terms of feeding, fertilization, stocking, and genetics has changed things for the better!
Excellent info! Thanks for all of this information. I love this forum.