Hi, I have been reading postings for awhile now. I live in Moore, ok and my pond is .25 acre and 12ft deep when full. Right now it is about 7' to 8' deep. I would like to put HSB, BG and CC in it. I was wondering what stocking rates I should use and where in Central Oklahoma I should get my fish. Thank you for your help.
of16:
Is this a new, as-yet unstocked pond? Existing fish populations would greatly impact any suggestions we would have.
Do you anticipate feeding?
How regularly do you plan to fish, and do you want to regularly remove fish for eating?
In small pond like this, HBG to go with the HSB and CC might be just the ticket if you don't mind having an entirely put-and-take operation.
it is a new pond. I have been using my well to fill it. It has 8' in for about 3 weeks now. I do plan on feeding and we do plan on taking fish out to eat.
I'll start the bidding with a recommendation of 200 HBG and a combined number of 50 CC and HSB (CC/HSB split based on your preferences for catching/eating).
I'd stock 5 lbs FHM as early next Spring as is practical. You might want to stock Gambusia at the same time. (FHM are CW-accepted startup forage, many of us like Gambusia aka Mosquito Fish as well. Do a search for Gambusia if you want to review the data and discussions on them.) If you will be putting in small HBG/CC/HSB fingerlings, they could follow shortly thereafter. If you want to stock advanced fingerlings, I'd wait until next Fall.
The floor is open for rebuttals, modifications, and higher bids...
If no one close to you has hatchery recommendations, you could get some ideas on fish sources from PB Mag. IIRC, many of the fish guys that advertise in it are in (North) Texas and should handle stocking in OK (as long as it's not football season).
can I put anything in right now? HBG? When do I put in the HSB and CC
With absolutely no scientific evidence to back me up, I'll recommend the following.
100-200 HBG (depending on how many you wish to harvest).
80 HSB (Cull slowest growing fish to get down to 30 by second or third year).
20 CC maximum.
I'd harvest all of the smallest and slowest growing fish that I could.
Your ultimate total weight of fish is an important consideration that you should explore.
I almost never take guesses at stocking rates because I think others like Theo have a better feel for this sort of thing, but since my ponds are of similar size I thought this sounded like a reasonable early start. As Bill Cody is so good at pointing out, the body condition of the fish will give you a great clue as to whether you are under or overstocked. Healthy, robust fish are an indicator that you can support more fish. Skinny fish (poor body condition) are an indicator that you need to step up the harvest rates.
thanks for the info. I would like to start stocking now. What should my time table be with each type of fish?
I will provide some thoughts about your pond stocking on Saturday morning when I have more time.
of16 - If you were up North with us, I'd say forget about stocking until Spring. Contrary indication would best come from someone in your area.
Do you know what your pond's water temp is now?
I do not know the water temp. It did crust over a few days last week during our winter storm.
Not much behind me, then, in approaching freezing. I think my pond finally iced over today; I need to hoof it back and see before it's completely dark.
freezing over is not the norm for my area. How is the best way to check the water temp and what is to cold to stock in? This is my first pond and I have alot of ?'s. I want to put fish in so bad I almost can't stand it.
I was told to put 10 to 15, 10 to 15 foot tall ceders in my quarter acre pond. Is that about right?
That is way too much cover for 1/4 acre. Two or three well dried out cedars should be plenty. I am personally not a fan of initial stocking during the winter. You have just filled it with well water and I question the water quality/fertility. I'm not really sure that your water will be really fertile until Springtime.
If you just gotta do it, and I probably would, go ahead and put in some fatheads and see what happens.
I would probably stock about 50/50 HSB and CC.
I thought it sounded like to much cover. As far as the CC and HSB was that 50 each or a 50/50 split? How about old Christmas tree's? would that work and how long would you let them dry out?
After Xmas get 2 6ft xmas tress and put them 10 ft apart standing up out in the pond. Sink them while they are green as they are easier to work with and sink. That is enough for a pond that size. See this link about structure.
http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000022 http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000083;p=1
thanks for the info. Do you have any thoughts on my stocking ratio and if I can stock something now?
okie,
Those CC get big fast if your feeding them, OK if your gonna eat them. I put 17, then like 35 then like 50 and I tell ya in the summer they seem to be wall to wall and I got a 3/4 acre. The stripers I have maybe 25 but they eat and you never see them, those CC are gaffoons. My original 17 I put in were 6-7 inches in less then a year those fish were about 5 pounds. If your growing them to eat them go a little high but if your just looking for fun dont go to high. You got some good suggestions about getting the fatheads and mosquito fish in there. I like to eat BG so I myself want the regular BG which breed more and they way I figure between me and the bass eating them, the HBG might not be enough. For you maybe the HBG sounds OK. I would go for the regular ones myself, but I am just a rebel. I am curious to see what Bill suggests.
I'm still thinking on what kind of BG I want. I plan on eating the CC and BG. Do you have LMB or just HSB?
Oh ya, I got a bunch of Xmas trees last year and sunk then two together with one cinderblock. There is always little fish in them and the big one like to hang at the base. I put 4 strucktures of two trees each. This year I want to put more but kinda place them in a line and put a few on the bank, trunk twards the bank. Just a few.
Why not put some fatheads in your pond now, maybe the mosqito fish if you can. I stocked the CC in the winter and they did great, I dont think I lost not even one. I was worried about bass eating them but since it was winter they didnt get them. Spring came and the CC showed up at the feeding station. Those cats are cheap so why not put them in. whats the worsed that can happen you loose 15 or 20. I know how you feel, my pond I just got and wanted to stock something. It was a few stripers, a few cats and 4 pounds of fatheads, this was all in January. They all made it except the fatheads, they were snacks.
I have both LMB and Stripers. I went a little nuts when I got the pond but my pond needed some balenceing so I am having fun with all of that. Plucking bass, adding this, changing that. The funnest thing I did was add 54 trout last month, they are really fun and eat like crazy. They wont make it threw the summer but are great for the winter. Now there is something you can stock right now...!
will the stripers be enough to keep the BG population controled?
Well I am a newbie so I dont have those answers for you but if there eating feed, they might not key on BG as much. Its a lot easyer to eat floating brown pellets then chasing BG. I do think they will eat some, so will bigger CC but not like a LMB. So like the suggestions were about the HBG, it may be right for you. I will learn from this to, cant wait to see what bill says.
I'm looking forward to what Bill has to say too. The thing I'm worried about with the HBG is there offspring. From what I read they decline in quality.
Yup, If you can seine your new pond you can always do that to if the BG get out of hand. Maybe a option. One thing for sure things can always be corrected one way or the other. I guess getting off on the right foot is definatly good though. I am sure you will be adding something soon though. Like a kid with a new toy. hehheheh I just ordered a plane that can take off from the pond.
http://www.parkflyers.com/html/hybrid-air.html I am hooked bad...
I can't seine my pond. Its to deep. Ya, I'm going to put something in with in the next week or so. I plan on getting a remote controled boat for my pond.
ewest, two 6' Xmas trees seems pretty light to me for 1/4 acre, don't you think?
I was trying to envision that; 1/4 surface acre should be a little over 10,000 square feet. If a single 6' tall Xmas tree had a diameter of 6' also, then it's diametrical area is less than 36 square feet in relation to the 10,000 square feet of the pond. Times two trees is 72 square feet. Less than 1% (when only considering the horizontal relation).
That doesn't seem like much to me although I know the calcs can be done differently adding the other plane in.
I put 8 in my 3/4 acre pond and there was 2 so there is 10. After the first year and getting a feel, I will keep the same amound of structures but add more trees in those spots, then I just want to try a few laying down on the bank because I rarely see any fish unless there is something for them to get next to. I was thinking like 3 spaced a foot or two apart trunks twards the bank. I could always remove them...
I have 3 small tire reffs and one nice size dead tree branch in it all ready.
Sunil I exclude all of the pond within 25 ft of the bank from that calculation as it is the biggest structure of all. I further assume that there will be some shallow bank structure (logs pallets, brush etc) anyway. Most info suggests 1-2 brush piles etc per acre. If the pond is 100 X 100 and you take away the 25 feet both sides you have 50 X 50 with 2 structures. That is enough to concentrate the fish.
http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf In ponds of less than one
acre, one brush shelter is enough.
Larger ponds need one or two shelters
per acre.
Select attractor sites that are
accessible to anglers. Good locations
are found in water 5 to 10 feet deep
near creek channels, off points, or at
dropoffs.
50 combined HSB & CC (once the latter get to a couple of pounds) should be good at keeping 200 HBG's offspring suppressed. IIRC Meadowlark is running a 4:1 HSB:HBG (TGG) ratio in his 1/4 acre pond and seeing very few offspring.
TGG??? 4 HSB to every one HBG? I'm very new to this stuff.
Okie,
In Theo's post, TGG refers to the Texas Georgia Giant. Meadowlark has taken the reins on an experiment involving a small pond and the Georgia Giant. You can do a search to find the thread. Good read.
BTW, Theo has put together a post that will be of interest to you.
http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000005 Side note: Theo, I did not see TGG on the list.
Edited to add "Texas". Thanks Eric.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112031
It's there now. AAAWIP (acronyms are a work in progress).
A search for "TGG" under Questions and Observations returns about 2 dozen threads (most) detailing Meadowlark's 1/4 acre TGG/HSB pond. I'm not touting GG's specifically, but this is one of the best documented HBG ponds that one can read about here.
Thanks ewest. I see what you are saying. It still seems light to me, and I do place a lot of my brush piles within 25' of the bank or shore.
TGG = Texas Georgia Giant / the name of Meadowlark's pond experiment.
The fish is GG = Georgia Giant which is a type of HBG = Hybrid Bluegill, from what little we know about its lineage.
Theo is right that "this is one of the best documented HBG ponds that one can read about here" but there is a lot of HBG info here and others have good HBG ponds with longer time runs (experience) such as bz.
http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000439;p=1
thank you for the info on TGG. I look forward to reading about it. I have a silly question. How do I tell whitch are the slow growing fish? Is this done by fishing or????
There was significant input into a thread about small pond management and stocking, just awhile back, called Keeping Things Simple. I proposed stocking baitfish that have high reproductive capability and predators that do not. A rational mix for you is, in my opinion:
Forage Fish
Fathead Minnows, 2-3 lbs Now
Mosquito Fish, 1000 fish Spring
3"-5" Bluegill, 200 Spring
3"-5" Redear Sunfish, 50 Spring
Predators
4"-6" Catfish, 25 Spring
5"-7" HSBs, 25 Spring
You can start a feeding program in the spring and enhance the growth rates and max growth potential of most of these fish. Use 40% protein or higher fish food, small pellets at first. I tend to avoid stocking HBGL for folks. Bluegill should do well and contribute something to your HSBs and Cats.
In my opinion, the TGGs are just a standard HBGL, but others might argue with me about that. I don't see a problem with stocking HBGL, necessarily, but they won't contribute to the production of baitfish...if anything they'll eat high numbers of minnow offspring and supplemental baitfish that you stock in the future.
Bluegill numbers are easily controlled, if needed, by hook/line, trapping, or adding more HSBs. Catfish probably won't control bluegill numbers.
Catfish and HSBs can be restocked as you remove them to keep the pond in balance.
If you can't find a source for HSBs in your area then we can airship some to you. Same goes for the other fish you intend to stock.
Originally posted by okiefish16:
...How do I tell whitch are the slow growing fish? Is this done by fishing or????
If you stock similarly sized fish you will be able to tell the slow growers by comparing fish caught during angling. An example would be that the following year you fish for HSB and catch two 12-inchers and two 10-inchers. Harvest the smaller ones. You'll also learn to recognize differences in "Wr" or relative weight, which simply put is how chunky the fish is. Remove and eat the fish that aren't thriving in your system as well.
How far can I transport the HSB? I can get the HSB in Gainsville. Its about a 2 hr drive.
yes, and I plan on bringing a tank of some kind with me.
Rubbermaid makes some nice tanks. If you can create a situation with minimal splashing, then you can buy a decent livewell aeration system to bubble the fish. Ideally the water temperature will be around 60 to low 60's which is what I've had best hauling success with.
80 HSB in the 4-6 inch range is nothing for a two hour trip. Piece of cake. I use a 100 gallon rubbermaid tank, which fits just right in my F-150.
Make sure to acclimate the fish before placing them in your pond. Gradual change of temperature to match the new home will make your fish happy.
okiefish16, Bruce and Todd are the HSB experts with the most experience, but I will share my experience with you.
4 – 6 inch HSB available for spring stocking are one year old stunted fish.
One-year-old HSB should be “grown-out” to 10 – 12 inches in hatchery ponds, whereas 4-6 inch fish have likely been held in crowded conditions on maintenance feed.
If 4 – 6 HSB are the only size available, I would stock heavily in a new pond, and follow Bruce’s recommendation to remove slow growers.
Last month, we stocked 50, 5 - 7 inch HSB in our 1/4 acre "grow-out" pond, expecting to transfer 25+ of our largest to our main pond next spring.
We have BG in this pond for primary forage, supplemented with high protein feed.
N.E. Texas
The folks that you purchase from SHOULD be able to package these fish for 2 hr drive with no problems at all. So there SHOULDN'T be a need for a livewell. Call them first to find out for sure.
Okiefish16 says: “I live in Moore, ok and my pond is .25 acre and 12ft deep when full. Right now it is about 7' to 8' deep.” “I would like to put HSB, BG and CC in it.” . . . . “I do plan on feeding and we do plan on taking fish out to eat.”
There has been lots of activity on your topic since yesterday, which has lengthened my reply, so it took longer than I planned. As U are experiencing with your topic, everyone here has an opinion about your project. Some are keeping it to themselves. If U look long enough, U will eventually find someone who will tell U exactly what U want to hear. There are many combinations of fish that can be used successfully in a small pond. Now here is what I think will help U to hopefully give U some more background info, some additional things to consider and hopefully not confuse U more than U already are.
STOCKING – Decisions – Decisions. Always remember this - The good thing about your pond is that it is small and starting over will be relatively easy when you decide to make minor or major changes.
Since I understand that U plan anticipated heavy harvest, U are almost forced to a put-and-take fish stocking situation. A 0.25 acre pond has a hard time naturally producing enough fish annually to allow a sizable fish harvest each year.
Everyone has favorite fish.
Since you have decided to feed your fish to optimize growth rates, then having a reproducing, self perpetuating forage fish is not as important to help feed the predators, compared to hyb bgill that have a pretty limited production of offspring. Remember if U go with Hyb Bgill, then as you harvest them, they will have to be purchased & replaced on a regular basis to maintain their numbers, so U constantly have a crop of larger panfish to harvest and eat. Also remember that restocking small sized Hyb bgill makes them very vulnerable to predation losses and this can affect how many that U purchase each time, and how well or how many will survive to a harvestable size. Depending on your predator fish numbers and predator sizes, U may find yourself frustrated at trying to restock hyb gill and getting them to NOT BECOME FISH FOOD. The most difficult part is usually locating a hatchery that sell restockers that are large enough (5”-8”) to avoid predation by 14”-15” or larger predators.
If U decide to stock regular bgill then they will continually reproduce and can, with regular feeding and proper management, grow to big sizes of 9”-10” in 4-5 yrs. Decisions - decisions.
Predators. CC and HSB – Expect neither one to do much at naturally replacing their numbers when lost to natural death or harvest. CC, can with proper spawn structure, ample REFUGE cover, and lack of predatory pressure, provide recruitment of numbers. HSB - never expect reproduction. Both fish, as they are sold by almost every hatchery, are raised to eat fish food. So locating stocker fish at least initially should not be a big problem. Locating larger sized replacement fish may be more challenging.
In a small pond such as yours, with an intended annual harvest rate, your most feasible solution is to annually or semiannually replace a similar amount or number that are harvested. This often means stocking larger sized individuals if predation losses are likely. However, locating larger stocker fish is sometimes difficult unless you are lucky enough to live near a fish farm that typically sells larger sized fish. Predation losses due to existing fish eating newly stocked fingerling fish is a real problem especially in a small pond. Pellet trained LMB if available in your neighborhood is also another put-and-take fish to consider. But remember that LMB with their larger mouths and strong appetites will require the use of even larger sizes of replacement fish.
As Joey suggested, consider stocking 10”-14”, put-and-take trout during late fall every year or three. These fish will feed well on fish food all winter and will provide lots of enjoyment during the cold and cool season, plus provide ample food for the table from October until about late May in Oklahoma.
Stock Now or Later. Since you are using well water to fill this pond, initially it will be nutrient poor. What ever fish you decide to stock make sure that it has been previously trained to eat fish food. A new well-water pond has low potential to grow fish due to low fertility. I think stocking minnows is optional since U should be essentially planning a put and take fishery. Minnows will, in cases similar to yours be short lived and they are not very efficient at growing or producing body mass of predatory fish. The fish that you are considering to stock are CC, BG-(hy-bgill) and HSB, all species that readily accept and grow well on artificial food. When it comes to raising fish for the table, fish food has a much higher food conversion ratio than live fish. Consider efficient use of your invested dollar. The choice is yours.
Trees – Two vs Many in a Small Pond. Fine twigged trees deteriorate fairly quickly and need to be regularly replaced if denser structure is desired long term (10+ yrs). Dr Dave Willis published an article in Pond Boss magazine about how Christmas trees degrade over time in a pond (Nov-Dec 2004 - SPRUCE UP YOUR POND by D.Willis. Selection, placement, anchoring methods, and aging / duration of Christmas trees as structure for fish.). You and others that are interested may want to study and contemplate this article.
However I question the need and value of a using a couple to just a few small twiggy trees in a small 0.25 acre pond. Why? A couple trees or one or two isolated artificial structures are, as ewest notes and as practically all applicable literature states, are primarily placed as fish attractors. In a 0.25 acre pond, why does one need fish attractors? Standing in any one or two spots on a 0.25 pond, I can probably cast to just about every spot in a pond this small. Where are the fish going to go to avoid a lure?. In a 0.25 acre pond, why does an angler need to attract or concentrate the fish? How far can they go, or how isolated can they become in such a small body of water? But if it makes you feel better to have some “fish structure” in a small pond then by all means install it, but after numerous years evaluating fish attractors in small ponds, I don’t think they are all that beneficial at helping the pond produce more fish.
NOW, if you are adding structures to become REFUGE areas for small fish, then that is an altogether DIFFERENT story or topic than using structure for just fish attractors. There is a big difference between the two topics and the requirements, percent coverage needed, consistency, and the purposes of each. Usually fish attractors are composed of a lose, open weave or spacious consistancy. Bob Lusk calls this fluffy cover. For REFUGE areas to be effective they need to be finely divided surfaces and comprise a significant part of the littoral or shallow areas (6”-3ft deep). I often suggest at least 25% of the shoreline. Predators often hunt the edges of this type of cover. Whereas in fluffy cover predators and large panfish locate within and among the cover. If you are managing your pond as primarily put-and-take and stocking larger sized fish with few forage fish present, then the refuge areas may be overall more of a detriment then benefit. But as I said earlier, If it makes you feel better, put in some structure.
Seining. In your case, with a deep steep sided, bowl shaped pond, seining the whole pond is not feasible, but the proper use of a seine in the beech or shallow littoral areas for assisting in population control and monitoring fish hatches is a valuable fish management tool. Fish traps can also be good tools for managing fish populations. Areas with bundles of structure will prevent seining of those locations.
Read the link provided in a post below by Ewest about: structure = fish growth. Note the study was in ponds 0.5-1 acre (all larger than 0.25) and the study used 9 (nine) trees per cluster, not a couple. Nine evergreen trees placed in shallow water starts approach the definition of REFUGE for small fish. The fish in the study were not fed pellets. Forage fish and natural foods were the food source. In a case such as this, a dense and fairly large cluster of structure can be beneficial. I think this is due to it being closer to a REFUGE than a fluffy FISH ATTRACTOR. REFUGE can be a fish attractor, but a fluffy fish attractor is rarely a REFUGE.
Also note from reading Dr.Dave's PBoss article about evergreen trees as structure, that Christmas trees when used as fish structure begin their placement as dense cover and after several years gradually become fluffy structure - due top leaf - stem deterioration.
Remember that structure or obstructions where ever placed will prevent any seining of that area for fish sampling purposes.
You ask - “How do I tell whitch are the slow growing fish? Is this done by fishing or????” Good question. My opinion, and simply put is this – U sample or collect your fish by whatever means. Compare the length and body weight of each fish to the standard weight for that species. (Search - standard weight on this forum.) There are a couple references to computer downloads that will provide the standard weight for various fish. I can help with this task if you have trouble. If the fish are 80% or more of the standard weight, then U assume they are getting ample amounts of food because they are fat, and thus they are growing at the best rate that their genetics allows.
I got rushed for time on this one and I may have forgotten something and I can clean it up later. I am interested in other experienced opinions about your topic. Good luck. Keep us informed how things are progressing. We are interested.
Postscript. If any resident members have read thus far and and are still with me, and since the topic of GG has re-emergged,,,, can someone start or rekindle the torch (in another topic or post) about Deb and what happened to the photos of the large GG she promised us last year? If no one has nerve to start this, I will reignite the torch soon.
Hehehe this is getting nuts.. Say a prayer buy 25 CC, and 25 HSB, 150 BG, 50 RES, and some fat heads, say a prayer and stock them, have some fun... hehe Since its new the worry might be the water quality but.... I think the overall consenses is close to this , question is now or in the spring??? The impatiant new ponder in me says jump in the car tomarrow and go get them. But this is why I am a newbie and may make some mistakes along the way. I think your pretty safe here.
I have a small pond and need to change fishing methods and target different species frequently. The fish seem to condition to bait, bobbers and lures quite quickly. What worked yesterday will not work today. You might keep this is mind when you stock and put in enough different types to allow for as much fishing as you want to do.
thank you for everyone's input. I plan on putting "some" in sooner than later. I like the idea of trout. Is it to late for that? If not, where can a guy in Oklahoma get them?
OKie,
here is what you got to look forward to. I put 54 rainbows a month ago. 7 - 10 inchers. 75 cent a piece. There supposed to grow approx a inch a month. I posted this link before on another thread but thought you might like it.
Trout Feeding
Here is a couple pics of my pond. The last pic is what it looks like today.
That's awesome. Is it holding water? Is the soil really that red colored?
Yes, my pond is holding water. I think its do to our good Oklahoma "red" clay. Believe it or not, my dozer guy put the top soil back on it. I will send a picture of the pond next door with no top soil on it.