OK, I’m seeing a lot of info that tells me HBG degrade with successive generations. Is this from inbreeding or from natural reversion back to ……whatever? How far does the degradation go? Is there a danger of the development of defects such as crooked spines, etc? Is size affected? If we introduce natural BG will they mix with the HBG? If so, what would be the expected outcome? If we were to stay with HBG is there a need for a predator species? Walleye? Rainbow trout?

I’m forming my questions from experience with tropical fish in my younger days. Some species require periodic introductions from different gene pools. Others do just fine in a closed situation. I’ve posted here before, but after doing a lot of reading of other posts I’m finding other questions that need to be asked.

Our pond/swale/bayou (depending on who you’re talking to) is located in the U.P. of MI. It is separated from Lake Superior only by a sand dune. The water level in the pond is completely dependent on the level of Superior. It is approximately 300 ft. long and 150 ft. wide averaging 14 deep. A lot of the bank is covered by Alder brush. An average winter without a lot of early snow finds 4-6 inches of ice. I married into the family 38 years ago, and until we stocked it over the summer it has only had minnows, turtles, and frogs. In July we stocked 250 HBG which are doing well according to my brother-in-law. Unfortunately, my wife and I live in VA and I only get to see this pond a couple weeks a year. Our short term goal is to have some fun for us, our kids and grandkids catching these guys on light action setups. Long term we’re looking for decent sized BG or HBG on a sustained basis.

Next summer I intend to do a more thorough mapping of the bottom. I guess what I’m asking, in addition to the questions above, is, “What else should I be asking?”

rick r.

Rick :

HBG are a tool to be used in the proper circumstances if they meet your goals for the pond. IMO they are best used as a put and take species and not as a long term breeding population for forage purposes.

It sounds like you don't have any predators in the pond. Here is a little info in these links. It is best to think about your goals and them make other choices based on those.

Here is a long HBG thread with pics.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000439;p=1

The info below is from that thread.

HBG turning into GSF has no science behind it to my knowledge. That is where I lost your train of thought. HBG offspring, because of outbreeding depression, can (may) be undesirable depending on ones goals, but they can not change their genes to those of a GSF.

There are many good uses of HBG depending on ones goals. Many of the studies are positive in nature on the uses of HBG as a tool in the right circumstances. This is reflected in some of the State pond mgt. books which suggest uses like yours (with HBG).

I know I have posted this before but the studies are in conflict wrt the ability of HBG to backcross with either parental species. One says yes one says no. Both were well done studies and some very good scientists were involved and so far there is no answer for the different results. Some of us have even contacted fisheries geneticist PhDs at the highest level who have written on sunfish genetics and they have no answer as most have not studied HBG cross genetics.

Stop and think about that. If HBG can not backcross with parentals then they can not ever create or get genetically close producing GSF , even through repeated spawning attempts with GSF. If they can backcross then through repeated crossing of HBG with GSF for generations the population as a whole will have a higher content of GSF genes.


To keep it straight in my mind I divide this topic in 2 parts for genetic purposes.

Part One -- each type BG , GSF and HBG are a separate thing, each with their on genetics , traits, abilities, benefits and problems. Each separate and different .

Part two -- HBG are a cross (a genetic change) and as such have the potential for both hybrid vigor and outbreeding depression. Both of these are present in HBG. Big mouth - fast growth start and most important aggressive (easy to catch) and skewed sex ratio in the F1 cross. As time , generations pass outbreeding depression works to lessen hybrid vigor and can (may) lead to offspring that have traits worse than either parental species. In time they may become "unwanted" but not because they are BG or GSF (or seem to have their traits) but because they are Fx HBG that have experienced outbreeding depression and the resulting negative genetic traits.

Recall that small size and/or stunting/ overpopulating is common to a number of lepomis not just GSF. I know that one or more of these traits are common in GSF , PS , BG , and others as well.

ML has GG and I don't know if they are HBG or not. Yes you can have different %s of parental species gene sequences ( BG , RES and GSF for example) but its how they mix and match up (if they are viable/live) that counts. To my knowledge science does not know ( I have not seen it written) what traits come from where and in what % and combinations with HBG or other lepomis crosses. Much left to learn. That is why I am interested in DIED's HBG situation -- are they continuing F1 HBG or are they Fx HBG.

I hope this helps somewhat.

ewest,
Wow, that's quite a thread. I started reading it at one point right after I registered, but got sidetracked and never got back. I've just finished readng it in full. It looks like you C&P'd from several replys. Thank you for you efforts.

You're right, there are no predators. This pond has been in the family since 1947. It hasn't been stocked since then and we're as close to positive as we can be that it wasn't stocked before that.

Based on the thread you quoted, I think we will use this as an experiment. We know what's in there now. HBG's. There is no possibility of something else popping up. We are in no hurry. Sounds like a chance to sit back and observe. I'll be interested to see what we get in the way of fry, if any, and we should have a couple generations, if they do breed, in as many years. That'll give us tme to let 'em grow a little while we learn more about this pond management thing. We can throw a few predators in in a couple years if we need to.

Meanwhile, this winter I'm going to work on tying up some buggy looking things with rubber legs. It won't hurt to test to see how aggressive, and tasty, they are next summer.

rick r.

Rick,

I'd like to offer a couple of comments. First, if you want to raise some sizable HBG, you need to have some predators in the pond. Even though HBG are 80 to 90% male, they will still overpopulate a pond, slower maybe than regular BG, but they will overpopulate and leave you with many, many small fish.

It is not recommended to mix regular BG and HBG. If HBG is your target species, then you want to minimize the Fx offspring and keep the hybrid vigor in the target fish. Adding BG to the mix will cause reproduction to increase substantially and lead to less desirable crosses.

As related to outbreeding depression, I don't question that it ocurrs, but do believe that overpopulation and stunting is many times over a much larger concern. I think some folks mistakenly identify inbreeding as a cause of fish stunting when in fact the main cause is fish overpopulation. Not scientific, but I've been raising an Fx in a small micro pond and its growth is outstanding and comparable to the F1 parents.

You have a wide choice of predators for your situation. LMB, HSB, maybe rainbows. HSB offer a good choice for small HBG control and great fishing. They can be completely controlled in numbers because they do not reproduce.

I noticed your close proximity to the Lake. Is is possible that over the existance of the pond's lifetime, water (and fish) from the Lake could have encroached on your pond?

p.s. in my own case with HBG, I'm running a 5 to 1 ratio of HBG to predators(HSB) and thus far seems to be working

ML - Since the pond is in Upper MI, I am pretty sure that they do not have access to hybrid striped bass (HSB).

rick-No. As ML: mentions you do need some predator and should introduce the predator before the HBG have a good first spawn. Largemouth bass fingerlings or smaller juneviles (6"-8") are a good first start. Your pond size of approx one acre could handle 80-120 LMB fingerling to put heavy pressure on the young HBG. The numnber of bass to stock is also dependant on how many HBG you initially introduced.

I have a pond near me that had a few HBG initially stocked in it and the pond has smallmouth bass as predators. You might want to stock SMB instead of LMB but the LMB would probably do a better job of reproducing and keeping young fish (HBG & bass) to a minimum. If you use SMB be sure to keep the SMB harvest to a bare minimum or none, so you always have plenty of bass to prey on HBG. Sometimes SMB do not always have good or successful spawns each year.

I sampled and fished the above mentioned pond last week. Initially 18 larger sized HBG were stocked in 1989 (17 yrs ago) by me into this 1/3 ac pond that contained SMB and yellow perch. I caught some large sized 8.5"-9" ?HBG?. To me they looked more like green sunfish than a typical HBG. I attributed this to after successive generations of HBG reproduction, the offspring that had the best survival advantage tended to have more GS like characters. I set some traps Sunday to be run tomorrow Tuesday. I will see if the traps catch any small sunfish types. HBG and green sunfish seem to enter traps well for me.

Keep us informed about the progress of your pond.

Bill,

Is that because of fish unavailability or climate? The parent Striped Bass range goes to New Brunswick on the right coast and British Columbia on the left coast and the other parent, white bass, has a presence in the St. Lawrence River and the Great Lakes.

HSB are not permitted in MI, IIRC.

As most of you know I've got HBG in my pond with my original F1's now 4 years old. I do have a small number of Fx's in there. I will be watching these closely to see what they do in terms of growth. One problem I have however is telling which fish are Fx's. I assume the largest fish I catch are F1's which are 9 to 10 inches. But when I catch a 8 inch fish, or a 6 inch fish what is it? I've caught every length fish in my pond from 10 inches down to 4 inches. I don't think any of my F1's could still be 4 inches long could they? Without assuming a growth rate I don't know how to tell one from another.

BZ about 2 issues back Dave Willis and I (90% Dave)did an article on aging fish and why it will help. Take a look. You can age BG by scale annuli (like tree rings) or other methods. Here is a 3 yr. old LMB scale. Dave's pics are much better , but not available here. I will try and post them tonight. I bet you can age those HBG with a little practice.



BG otolith



White crappie scale 3 growing seasons.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I am researching the predator issue now. I don't know what's available nearby, so I'm trying to figure that out. I would love to see SMB there, since they are my passion, but we may have to get by with something else.

I just spoke to my brother-in-law in the U.P. He's been going out to feed the HBG's and watching their progress. He has brought up another question. Over the last three weeks or so temps in the U.P. have been down. Some nights in the 30's, and some days no higher then the low 50's. The fish are nowhere to be seen. Are they prepairing for winter by going deeper?

ML, there is no chance for mixing of the lake and pond. I'm trying to find a picture, but have yet to find one that will show what I mean. Many years ago, 40 or so, a lot of the neighbors within a few miles on either side chose to bulldoze the dune into their pond. Doing so both gave them a view of the lake and eliminated the need for a bridge to get across the the beach. These are costly and hard to maintain. It also helped with the bug situation as well. My father-in-law decided to keep the serene view of the pond.

Bill, I will be sure to keep you all informed on our progress. I am enjoying this site very much and learning a lot in the process.

I think you just answered your own question. Figure out what you have to do to get smallmouth in your pond. Work around that main goal. If it doesn't work out, you can always modify your goal later. If it's your passion, then do it!

You probably won't see nearly as much of the HBG at the surface as the water temps drop off, except in the shallows on warm, sunny days. Surface pellet feeding will probably stop by the time the water temp gets down to about 55 deg F.

Interesting you say that Theo. The typical feeding cycle for my HBG on floating pellets is that they start eating low volumes in the spring right after ice out (this last spring they hit floating pellets quite well the same day the ice melted). After water hits mid 40's they start feeding heavy. They feed the heaviest from there to mid 70's. Then they slow down when water is in high 70's to about half the peak volume. They continue to eat at about half volume until water gets down into the 40's then cut back to about 1/4 peak volume. They continue to feed gradually getting slower all the way up to the day before ice over. The warmest my water got this year in the top 2 feet was 81 degrees. My water is now in the 40's and they are feeding very consistently at about 1/4 peak. Last fall they fed quite well the day before freeze up. I speculate that the slow down when water reaches high 70's is due to abundance of natural food not actual slow down in metabolism. I say this because the fish remain very hefty all through this slow down in feeding.

BTW Ewest, thanks for those pics. I think I could do this. Next time I get some scales I'm going to try it since I do have a microscope. Might be next year unless is doesn't hurt fish to remove a scale and let him go?

ML's TGGs ate and grew well during Winter, although I think that was with sinking feed. The non-BG Lepomis genes may make HBG a lot more active in cold water than straight BG (???). My BG shut down on surface pellets with temps in the upper 50's.

Or maybe Meen-a-sota fish HAVE to eat when it's cold.

I think you guys are describing what sounds like a perfect example of local adaptation. There are a number of studies that point out large differences in a species behavior/biology based on local adaptations needed to survive. That is why one should not try to stock a southern HBG (or any other fish or southern species CNBG , Fla LMB) into a northern pond. Good quality local ( same climate) fish do better.

BTW thank Dave Wills for the pics. Thanks Dave. bz you can remove a scale and not hurt the fish.

I will let ML answer in truth for his TGG's, but if I recall correctly he stayed with a surface feed that the HSB fed on. The TGG's (again I am pulling from memory) relied on the heavy population of gambusia minnows in the pond for their substantial growth.
What we see in our farm ponds here in South Ga. is a change to sinking feed once the water temps drop below 60 degrees. At that point we cut back to a one time feeding program every 2-3 days, then resume a daily (sometimes twice daily) surface pellet when water temps rise over the 60 degree mark. We keep gambusia in all of the GG and HSB ponds year round.

Hope this helps,

Deb

Likewise, good to see the lil pink fishies, Deb. Hope you had a busy season. I remember as you, that the TGG gorged on the gambusia. I tried to get sinking feed at Rangen, but they hadnt made any. Wish it was sold in smaller quantities, hard to buy 50# for southern ponds just for winter feeding infrequently for a small pond. Maybe I can get someone to go in halves with me.(hint, hint, ML).

I'll take the hint and a couple of sacks of the sinking feed. Burger, how much do you need? I only need about 75 pounds for the winter so if you want part of a sack you are welcome to it free of charge...but you may have to come to the Ranch to get it. My days in Houston are numbered and the number is a small one.

Deb, two sacks of the sinking feed shiped to my address in the country, if you please. Thanks.

p.s. Yes, my TGG's fed primarily on Gams last winter and continue to do so. The HSB get most of the pellets on top. I feed the sinkers in Jan. and Feb. just for good measure, not sure who eats them but perhaps both TGG and HSB.

Bruce,
Although SMB are my passion I get that need satisfied here in Virginia a couple times a week on the Potomac, Rappahanock, and Shenandoah rivers in my kayak. For a pond in the U.P., that I see a couple weeks a year, I'm going to have to be more practical minded. I've done a little searching and the only thing close seems to be a choice of Walleye, Rainbow Trout, or Yellow Perch.

Thanks again for the good replys everyone. I'm getting so much info here I'm starting a notebook.

This pond is going to have to be more or less self maintaining. It's only going to see action a few weeks a year.

Every time I read this site I find more things I want to do next year while we're there.

rick

rick-No./VA/UP
If you decide to go with perch in the UP pond be sure to stock a predator to keep YP from becoming overabundant and stunting. You might consider stocking only SMB and minnows in the pond. New York extension service recommends SMB only ponds. From my experience that is a viable combination as long as you manage the size classes of bass so the population is close to your goals. Several minnow species may thrive better in the pond than just one variety. I recommend that you first stock the minnows and let them get well establised and reach a mature size for one year then the next year add the fingerling SMB. During the first year the rooted vetgetation growth would hopefully also become established to provide seasonal refugia for the minnows.
Please Keep us advised on the progress of your pond.

An update. The high today was under 40 degrees. We had snow. Was snowing when I went out to feed my HBG. They fed like crazy. They definitely act different in the cold than those southern fish. I'll check the water temp in the next day or so.

bz those HBG know what's coming and are stocking up for winter.

To maintain condition in a system where their
primary prey undergoes large fluctuations in seasonal abundance, largemouth bass maximize
caloric growth in the fall, store visceral fat, minimize standard and active metabolic demands,
and undertake some winter feeding in warm thermal areas.


Variations in the liver weight of largemouth
bass reflect storage of glycogen fat, and water,
which vary with consumption rate. Consumption was high during the late spring and summer, yet the liver-somatic index (LSI) of both sexes declined. This decline may have been related to utilization of energy for reproduction and temperature-induced metabolic demands. [[ This same pattern in the LSI was found in
field-collected bluegills Lepomims macrochirus over a year and was attributed to summer
spawning and temperature.]] Because the liver
of largemouth bass is relatively small and glycogen is the primary storage product this organ probably provides short term
supplies of intense energy for activities
such as reproduction and pursuit of prey and
does not function as a major winter energy storage depot as it does in many northern predators.

Ewest, that first sentence is something I probably guessed but the rest helps explain what is really happening. I truly did wonder how those fish can survive for 6 months on natural feed in my small pond. Do you think I should avoid catch and release during the winter just so that I don't cause fish to over exert and stress when they are living off so little?

bz I don't think that would be needed. I would go the other way and feed them a little with worms or some sinking pellets or a few FH. I wonder if adding a couple pounds of FH not to long before ice up would help. Drill a hole and dump in a box of worms (not the dirt). You could grow the worms and add some all winter.

I had hoped for a better reason to revisit this thread. I haven’t posted much since this initial post, but I’ve been checking in, reading and learning.

A brief history is as follows. Two years ago we stocked our 1 acre pond in the U.P. with close to 300 HBG’s. Previous to this the pond only contained minnows, frogs, and turtles. Average depth is 12’ to 14’ with Alder brush and Lilly pads around 80% of the bank. Last year they were doing well with average lengths of 6” to 8”, and spawning well with many fry of different sizes. We failed to introduce a predator species, but that was scheduled for this year. We felt that with an acre to work with we could wait. As late as last October decent sized, growing HBG’s were being caught. The initial group was fed floating pellets, but little if any pellets last summer. They survived through the first winter with approximately 18” of ice forming.

No one fished for them until about a month ago. There are no HBG’s to be found! Anywhere in the pond. We fished every day, all over the pond. We netted hundreds of minnows and never found HBG fry. While feeding pellets not only fish, but turtles became trained to feed. Including several good sized Snappers that we never knew were there.

As far as we can tell the pond has returned to it’s state prior to introducing HBG’s. Minnows, turtles, and all are still present.

I can see the Snappers taking some, but not all. Even if something like an Otter is present, there is too much cover to get them all. A public lake a few miles away had a sizable BG die-off supposedly due to greater than normal ice cover. Again, I can see a high percentage, but not all.

I was all set to show some bragging pics this year. Instead, I’m asking for any thoughts.

rick

Welcome back to Pond Boss Rick. Interesting thread - I hadn't read it before or don't recall reading it (which could mean I read it yesterday afternoon and simply forgot).

Glad you're back posting with us.

I'm thinking winterkill. I remember several small lakes (ponds, really) on the Canadian shield having only minnows in them, because any larger fish (YP, WE, NP) that get introduced into them routinely die from low oxygen under the ice. The small minnows have a lower oxygen demand and survive in breeding numbers.

Any future large fish stocking could be kept alive through some snow removal or enough aeration to keep a small area ice free.

Theo,
Well.....we’re definitely within the “shield” area. Whether you call it Canadian or Precambrian, I guess depends on where you live. A cousin of mine, now a retired DNR officer in Ohio, calls it a Swale. The locals in the U.P. refer to it as a Bayou. To me it’s a pond.

I think I’m going the same direction as you as far as the cause of the die off. I am, however, having some trouble on a couple points. Would all of the original stocking die off just due to larger body mass, or would some survive? Even one or two? Also, what about the last couple batches that were spawned last year that, by ice over, would have been no larger than the minnows that survived. Our original stocking was with fish the size of a quarter and was done in early August. The minnows average 1 1/2" to 2". Some get up to 4". The winter kill theory is the best we have, but all the pieces don’t fit.

To add to my last post there are cormorants hanging around, a pair of Bald Eagles nesting 100 feet from the pond, and a new fact I just found out. A neighbor on one side whose property is slightly overlapped by our pond could possibly have put something in the water to kill a Beaver he’s sure we have. We are just as sure we don’t have a Beaver. The first two would not get all the HBG’s, and the last would get everything.

rick

What all will die in a Winterkill depends on how bad the low O2 gets. The biggest fish are the most susceptible. Like you pointed out, we don't have any way of knowing exactly what happened.

Rick,
My pond had severe winterkill this year, all my rainbows 18" ,and brook trout 14" died, but the golden shiners, and pumpkinseeds did ok. Pumpkinseeds are suppose to be cold tolerant, but i wonder if HBG can take low DO, and cold temps.

Theo and AP,
Thanks for the input. This pretty much lines up with my thoughts even though I didn't want to think it.

Guess that's why this pond has only had minnows in the 40 years I've known it. No sense trying to re-stock. They'll just continue to be wiped out every couple years.

IMO this pond is not worth the trouble or cost to set up aeration. It is pretty much unattended from October through April. Is there a species that can survive better in low temps and low DO?

rick

Perhaps one of our Northern tier PMs or Pros would know if any fish worth catching might survive Winters in the pond consistently.

If you were in NY on Lake Ontario - Bullhead would make it if they aren't already there. I doubt your situation is much different then some that I'm familiar with.

The "ponds" like you describe that do "OK" on lake ontario - have :

1. an inlet & a "cut"
2. or at least a "cut" in the dune - to the main lake.

Obviously in either situation your local fish run the risk of escaping - but at the same time you get a pretty neat natural fishery with the "cut". its also their way in and out in the event of low oxygen.

On of my favorite spots (Sterling Creek Pond at Fair Haven NY) has Crappie, Northern Pike, Bowfin, LMB and even EEL during the summer months - and Rainbow trout, Brown trout and King Salmon in the fall.


F-H

Contrary to some of the literature cited here, we've been using male greens/female BG to make our hybrids, and never seen any evidence of reproduction, despite the fact that this cross is supposed to result in a much higher incidence of female offspring, than the reciprocal cross.

I know that the hybrids are claimed to have much lower fecudnity, and MAYBE all the resultant fry are eaten before we see them, but we've NEVER seen any.

JHM are you using hybrids to try and make more hybrids ?

Here is some info. There is more info as well some consistent some not.


HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS
Illinois Natural History Survey
Urbana, Illinois
U.S.A.


4.1 Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.

In this paper R refers to red-ear sunfish, B to bluegill, G to green sunfish, and W to warmouth. Matings between individuals of different species are designated to P1 crosses and the resultant hybrids are designated as F1 hybrids. F2 hybrids are those produced by mating an F1 male with an F1 female. The P1 cross of a male bluegill with a female green sunfish is designated B × G and the resultant hybrids are designated BG F1 hybrids; GB F1 designates the reciprocal hybrids.



4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.

No, we start a new batch every year, using male greens and female BG.

We usually keep their progeny up to 2 1/2 years, and have never seen fry or fingerlings in any of the ponds where they (F1s) are held for growout (each year class is held in a separate pond). They certainly DO makes nests, etc, but have never seen offspring.

Next time I move some, I'll sacrifice a few and sex them.