Good afternoon everyone. The last few seasons of my fish managment hobby have been very challenging to say the least and I'm looking for any suggestions that may aid in the success of my next project. I lost all my game fish to winter kill in the main pond last winter and with a pond full of FH minnows, leapord frogs, snails, crayfish, and such I will be trying something new (to me at least).

Goal: Create and maintain a "balanced" pond that will produce YP (10" or greater)with the use of WE and supplemental feeding.

Background: The main pond (Hubert), which is a dug out pond, is a little over 1 acre. It was constructed years ago in a wetland setting and is a very diverse pond environment. In past seasons, I had good success growing BG, LMB,CC, and BC until I learned the killing power of organic soil. This is the pond that I wish to grow the YP. The upper pond (Grow out), which is also a dug out, is a 1/4 acre. It was constructed just last season and has been stocked with BG and FH minnows. This pond will be used to grow out walleyes that will be placed into Hubert once they reach a size between 8-12". Both ponds are aerated. Hubert with wind and Grow Out by solar. The third pond (Delta),which is approximately 1.5 acres, will be used to grow FH minnows.

My Approach: Use supplemental feeding both minnows and pellts, along with WE predation, to grow large YP in Hubert. I would use the Delta to produce FH minnows. Once a seaon, probably in the fall, trap the FH's out of the Delta and transfer them into Hubert. I belive 100-120lbs of FH minnow production is attainable. I would use the WE to "regulate" the YP and harvest any WE once it reached 14" in length. I would also pellet feed the YP. Every season I would stock WE fingerlings into the 1/4" pond for grow out. Depending on the "balance" in Hubert, replace or add WE as needed from Grow Out.

Currently: Hubert was stocked with 400 YP (4-6") along with 40 6-8" WE this spring.
Grow Out is stocked with BG and FH minnows all seems to be doing well. I will be stocking 20-30 WE this fall. Delta is doing well assuming it evers rain here again.

If a little knowledge is dangerous, I should be considered a nuclear weapon. Am I completly nuts or can this work. All input especially what hasn't worked would be much appreciated.
Finally, if this total fails, no worries, I can go back to what worked before. Man I love experimentation

Sounds like an exciting plan.

Do any of the ponds have the mouse-launch system?

Cody raises nice, big YP using only nice, big YP as the predator to thin the ranks. So it should surely be doable if you add in Walleyes.

Thanks for the response fellas. Do either of you know what to expect for growth rates for both the perch and walleyes, assuming an unlimited food supply? Difficult to answer I know but how about a gut feeling?

I never constructed a working prototype for the mouse launcher but it sure made for some fun discussions at the bar. A lot of napkins were destoryed in the designing of this mythical product. Some ideas had merit but with all the other projects (house, cabin, food plots, clear cuts,and new fish ponds) it fell too low in priority.

Understood.

I guess YP and WE might not get down with eating mice anyways.

Growth rate for YP and WE with unlimited food will depend on the your growing degree days for your area and size of fish initially stocked. Growing days for me (Apr 15-Oct 31)are about 195 (days with water temperature above 50F). Note when oxygenated water temperatures get higher than 80F, growth probably slows down relative to degrees above 80F for YP and WE.

Female YP and WE will grow faster than the males. All same aged males and females will not grow at the same rate. Some fish in the year class will be runts and some will be the most rapid growers (shooters, trophy bound fish). So the size difference (males vs females) in a year class can appear fairly large. Most individuals of the same year class will be somewhere spread out in-between runts and shooters.
I have the most experience with YP. Generally first year YP can range from 3"-8" long; most will be 4"-6". At second year old (24 months) sizes will be 5"-11"; most 6"-9". Third yr 7"-13"; most 8.5"-11.5". Smallers ones of each group almost always being the males.

WE do not seem to grow quite as fast in a pond as in a lake. Not sure why. Again growing days are important for annual growth rates. IMO WE are not as high temperature sensitive as older adult YP. Also pond WE tend to top out at about 4-5 lbs. That limit may have to do with the prey size, availability, and type. I am still collecting data on WE growth in ponds and am interested in hearing about those with WE in their ponds.

My experiences w/ WE show at a fall or spring stocking of 4"-6" expect them to be 7"-10" at end of year. 2nd yr in pond (3yr olds) probably 10"-13"-maybe a few 14". 3rd yr expect 12"-14"; a few 15"-16". Yr 4 in pond expect 13"-16" maybe an 18"er or two. Years 5 and 6 you should see some 21-24" WE.

I would like to see the WE growth rates living as only predator for 4-5 yrs in a pond that had unlimited fatheads and shiners as food.

My limited experience with WE in my pond has not yielded good growth results.

I have tremendous amounts of forage fish, yet the WE have not grown very well. They were stocked at around 14" if I recall correctly, about 2 years ago. They are now maybe 16" tops.

Makes you wonder why WE do so poorly in ponds, even ones with excellent forage bases... I don't know every detail about Sunil's pond, but from the info I know it sounds like an ideal pond for WE. Larger at 7 acres, with some cooler depths and good food sources. Just doesn't make sense!

Bill Cody, I have 7 WE that I put in the pond last fall that were 4 to 6 inches then. They went in with about 8 pounds of FH. We've caught a few of them on minnows that are on average 11 to 12 inches the past few weeks.

I probably wouldn't have put them in but the guy I get my FH from offered them because that was the last he had.

I'm kind of looking for a few bonus fish down the road.

Sunil & Bill- Thank you for all the information.

Since my main pond (1 acre) is set up with YP and WE only and it was just started this spring, I might be able to supply you with some anecdotal information over the next 5 years. What information would benefit you to most? My current thought is to sample the pond with hook and line starting this fall. (this is science honey, will be the argument I give the Mrs. after countless hours of fishing this fall) I was going to document length and weight of a certain sample size, maybe 5 to 10 of each species. The only difficulty I see will be catching those WE with basically an unlimited food supply. How big can a WE be and still be trapable? Any other managment techniques that you would use? My goal is to produce as many YP with a 10" min length/acre/season do you think the slow WE growth rate would be to my advantage or disatvantage to attain this goal?
This fall I will be stocking WE into my grow out pond (1/4 acre) which will be full of FH minnows, and BG. I will be monitoring the growth rate of the WE between each pond. The difference being the presence of BG. I will also monitor catchability on both ponds.

Up here in the north, I would love to create a balanced pond using a cold water fish combination such as WE and YP similar to the LMB and BG combination in the south. I am open to any suggestions or ideas that would make this have a chance of working.

What did you think of my initial stocking rates?

WE can be caught at any size if you have the right equipment. Trap nets can be used to monitor their populations. Using a Trap such as this one will allow you to sample your pond efficiently without the use of hook and line. Albeit, traps like that are not cheap! They are very effective though... It would be very interesting for us all to see how the growth rates of the WE and YP progress.

Thanks CJBS2003 - What is a ball park cost for a net like the one you posted and how many do you think I would need?

mnfish, I will be extremely interested in how your WE with YP experiment goes. I am also in MN and have planned to do the same thing in my next pond. I'm thinking a 1 acre pond, 12 feet deep, stocked initially with FH minnows and then a year later with equal sized WE and YP. My hope however is to get eating sized WE with the perch as a bonus.

I wonder if a few smallies might round out the mix nicely.

My only concern with a WE/YP only pond is if the YP can reproduce enough to keep the WE fed. During the original stocking of FHM, I would also stocking GSH as well... I would give the FHM and GSH a good year of spawning before the addition of YP and WE... Perhaps the use of red shiners as well, they may be an alternative or addition to the GSH and FHM and there are some commercial sources of red shiners in the the Midwest.

mnfish - I think you have a good start and interesting plan.

CJBS is concerned if YP can produce enough small YP to keep WE fed. YP can definately produce enough to feed WE it depends on how many WE are in the pond. There is a definate upper limit where WE will overeat the forage fish. That limit is??? and it all depends.

mnfish- I think your WE stocking rate in main pond (Hubert) was a little high unless you add extra amounts of FHM during the first year. 2nd yr YP fingerlings will provide added forage. Thus your 40WE/ac could be maintained with large supplimental FHM stockings. Plan on the first year for each walleye (assuming 38-40 survivors) to eat 6-10 lbs of FHM (225-300 lbs) for optimum WE growth to 11"-13" by fall 2009. This does not account for 400 stocker 4"-6" YP eating minnows which they will do. YP numbers will also consume quite a few FHM and WE or YP may have to be thinned regularly so every one grows well based on how many minnows are added annually. If you had a YP spawn this spring (2009)then those YOY YP will help feed the WE their fish ration for 2009. With limited food expect WE at end of 2009 to be 8"-9".

It will be interesting to compare WE growth in Grow out pond to main pond.

IMO you should be stocking/transfering FHM 3 to 4 times per year to main pond rather than once. Reason being this tends to spread out the abundance and size distribution of FHM. Transfers will result in all sizes of FHM introduced. I expected certain sizes to be eaten first leaving behind less than optimum sizes. I suspect Predators will initially gorge on FHM and not use the food as efficiently compared to several FHM introductions. Maybe not? Just my opinion/feeling.

There are pros and cons of adding GSH to the main pond. Main pro is diversity of food base. Main con is bait stealing and pesty nature when small live baitfishing for YP.

Depending on harvest rate WE should be stocked annually or every 2 yrs to maintain a good year class/size distribution.

I have found that WE do tend to prey on size oriented forage (if common and available) depending on the size of WE. FHM is not efficient food for WE that are greater than 20". Generally I expect the WE (14"-16") to prey on larger FHM (2.5"+) and YP to eat smaller (1/5"-2")FHM.

Angling could be a relatively good way to sample the WE and YP. WE will be a little harder to catch than YP due to density differences and willingness to bite issues.

The trap nets are fairly expensive and they can be built yourself using some softer style plastic fencing netting from Menards and a PVC pipe frame. Basically you need a box with a funnel or V shape end and a couple wing leads to direct the fish into the funnel. Search trap nets or hoop nets for design examples.

For those interested FHM cannot or have a very difficult time maintaining themselves for very long (>2-3yrs) in a pond with just YP. Abundant YP of various sizes exert too much predation pressure on all sizes of FHM. At least that is what has occured in a few ponds here in NW OH.

Thanks Bill, great info for those looking at the WE/YP pond...

I'm really hope this works and discover something new. Just like the rest of you. This "hobby" has gone way past anything remotely close to a healthy past time. OBSESSED to the third power.

I will start a lab book/ journal this week (Walley and Yellow Perch Experiment 2009). I will post pictures of the ponds mentioned and samplings of the fish. My goal will be to make at least biweekly notes and observations. I will observe and record pond and weather conditions (water levels, water temps, air temps,bait fish numbers, and such). I will conduct a fishing sampling once a month between the 1st and the 15th depending on my honey to do list. I will measure length and weight of each species. Maybe I could put together a crude, slightly scientific, growth curve. I wish I had measured and weighed the fish before release.

I will really be watching and monitoring the available food. This spring when I set up a clover leaf trap I would have 2 to 3 gallons of FHM within only a couple hours of soak. That catch rate was done any where on the pond. Right now there are so many FHM. When the kids and myself were swimming this weeekend we were completly surrounded by FHM fry. Any where I looked in Hubert it was covered with FHM fry. It will be real interesting to see what happens. All of my ponds are built in wetlands and there is so much other available food, i.e. tadpoles, frogs, crayfish, and snails not to mention all the bug life.

Bill - I will incorporate mothly stockings of minnows instead of once a year. I think it makes sense plus its one more pond activity. I'm glad to here you thought the WE stocking was slightly high. My thinking was this: With the goal of growing big YP as quickely as possible I will need them to take pellets. I will need to make sure the native food supply is limited so as to keep them on the pellets. Also, with the fact that WE in a pond environment will only grow so big I would like to ensure they don't grow past 16" before they are harvested. For a big perch pond I think a "stunted" predator would be perfect. Anything bigger and they will start consuming perch that are within my target size. We'll see.

If there are any thoughts I would love to hear them.

BZ- My neighbor has a pond that is a little less than 1/2 acre and has a maximum depth of 6.5 feet. He has had WE in his pond now for 5 seasons. His pond is a dugout and is aerated via a windmill. His pond is in a wetland similar to mine so the water level doesn't fluctuate to much. Belive it or not he has had some recruitment from his WE. If your doing a dug out and your in a wetland type environment I don't believe you would need to spend the extra money on 12'. IMHO, I think 8' would be great plenty.

Here is my first update with the YP and WE pond only project. The pictures are of the Growout pond, Hubert, WE, and FH minnows observed in Hubert.
We fished Sat. night and caught only one fish. The WE as you can see measured a little less than 10 inches. I forgot my scale so no weight recorded (what engineer forgets his tools). Reminder: the stocking took place mid May of this year with the WE ranging from 6-8".


Growout looking NW


Growout looking E


Hubert looking S


1st WE Hubert


FH minnows observed mid day

I tried to find in the previous posts but either it isn't there or I am blind... What has been stocked, when and at what size? Sounds like you got the makings of a neat little fishing hole!

From June 9, 2009

Thank you Theo...

If I had an eye doctor like that my eyesight would really improve.

I think I would develop a new ocular ailment on a weekly basis.

Great pics, MNFISH.

Thanks Dave,
I knows it only one data point but what do you think? Is this the type of growth you would expect from a Midwest pond WE (length and girth)? Anything unusual?

Mnfish -- what, put this thread back on topic? I'm not sure that is allowed?

Like you said, only one data point. A 6 incher going to 10 sounds good; an 8 incher going to 10 in a couple of months sounds ok. Just looking at him, he has good plumpness for a 10 incher.

We overstocked walleyes in a 22-acre pond here, and they were NEVER that plump!

We had walleyes at a lower density in a gravel pit here, and they did resemble your fish. I'd say you made a good start on the initial stocking.

Update for those following along. I have no pictures or data to share this month. I can not seem to catch any WE or YP out of Hubert. Currently, there are so many FH minnows of all sizes, I am thinking my original stocking may have been a bit light. I don't have any fish traps but I think I will set the under water camera up this weekend. Approximately 10 man hrs of fishing and one bite. I think I built an ecosystem thats great for the fish but no for the fishing.

What were you fishing with? Artificials or live bait?

Used both live and artificial. Pan fish leaches with a plain hook and bobber. Also pitched 1/32oz white twister tails.
One interesting note. I can't prove it with pictures but I observed a few fish surface feeding. It could have been chasing the bait fish on or to the surface. Fun to watch.

MNfish -- "light" on stocking may mean some nice fish much sooner. Remember that my overstocking rates didn't work too darn well.

Last time I saw walleyes surface feeding was on a Kansas reservoir when the big Hexagenia mayflies were hatching. The walleyes came up for those (as did white crappies, white bass, and channel catfish). The mayflies were thick!!

mnfish, Try with the fat heads you've been feeding them with. They might think its an easy meal. Mine do...

MNfish, what part of MN are you located? My ponds are also all dug into a bog (into the water table) so I do have stable water levels and a very similar situation to yours. This really works well doesn't it. Thanks for the comments, I am encouraged that perhaps a new walleye pond might just work. But first, I have to get it dug. No small task when it's a couple of acres.

I know its not possible to show emotion thru a forum but let me just say I am completely stoked up. Fished Hubert Sat. using night crawlers under a bobber. It was a cloudy and breezy evening. Caught not one but two walleyes both almost exactly the same size (enter drum roll). Both identical size 11-7/8" and chuncky. Caught 3 perch as well. No pictures as I left the camera in the cabin.
This is very exciting to be able to grow these fish that fast.

BZ- Located not too far out of Monticello. If WE's grow this fast with FH minnows and you have a good source I believe there are many pond management options.
I can't wait to stock WE's in my growout pond next spring. Its 1/4" the size of Hubert and loaded with FH's and BG's. Growth rate comparison will be interesting. I truely hope the We's don't recruit. They are easy to source up here and relatively not that expensive. Further more, a top line predator with good growth rates and no chance of over population would open a lot of management possiblilities, IMHO.

Mn you keep us all posted, I am planning to add them to my YP pond next year to help eat the YOY, along with HSB and RES, should be real interesting.

Just wanted to give a brief update on the WE/YP project. This winter was tough again on my ponds. I had some winter kill of both WE and YP. I found 7 WE and 4 YP after ice out. Under water camera along with some fishing have proved that a large portion of the YP are still alive. Not sure yet about the WE. The WE that were dead measured from 11-13". One intersting note is the pond is still swimming with lots and lots of FHM.

Sorry to hear about the fish loss. Hopefully, some of the walleye pulled through and with less competition will pack on the pounds faster now for you...

Sounds like you need to address why you are having issues in the winter. Maybe your pond is too shallow, or you need to get the snow off the ice better, or you need some shallow water aeration. YP and WE are very hardy winter fish so you should not have much in the way of losses

Bill Cody has asked for an update on my WE/ YP pond experiment. I am sorry for not provinding an update on my experiment. I sometimes forget that my failures can provide some potental valuabe information to others.

First of all, I believe my goal was achieveable. And I would have loved to let this experiment run out 5 years to see what type of growth rates could have been achieved. It was going fine with the exception of the one winter kill(Aeration inadequacy). I just couldn't let the experiment run long enough to gain any good data. I was so restrictive on the fishing that I felt the trade off was too much. So I simply quit and went in another direction.

The one bit of knowledge I did gain that may help others when deciding to stcok WE. First, WE get hook smart very fast, especially if lots of forage present. Second and most importantly, kids and WE don't go together if you want a catch and release program . Can you say deep hooked! With 40 stocked and 2 killed in one evening, 5% reduction in population.

To date, I still have YP but didn't see a WE in the 2011 season and didn't stock any more. As mentioned in another post I have completely switched gears and stocked BCP with the YP. I'm trying to build and maintain a BCP fishery with sustained 10"-12", 1/2 to 1lb BCP.

mnfish- thanks for the update. Good information. We are interested in how this fishery develops. Keep us updated. You may have to resort to some SMB or LMB to keep a balance of good growing fish. I doubt WE will be very good at preying on BCP.

I harvest every WE that I catch in my pond and replace the numbers removed. Willis and Cromwell in PBoss Mag suggest stocking some walleye 10-20/ac every yr or two to maintain a good size range of predators.

Mnfish - Kid fishing is one of my top priorities. Did you remove the barbs on the hooks? If not, would easy removal of the hook have allowed your WE to survive, or were they goners by the time the kids got them on the bank?

Thanks.

Any chance in re-starting this thread?

I would also love to try the YP - WE experiment, although all of the way south into Kansas.

I have an oxbow pond beside a stream that runs all year long. I think(?) I can expand this to about 2.5 acres and set up the piping so the volume of the pond will be exchanged in about 24 hours.

I will get a lot more grow days than Mnfish got during his experiment. However, instead of getting a winter-kill like Mnfist, I will be close to the top of the temperature limit for YP and WE. The water in the pond will be coming from the flowing stream, so it should be highly oxygenated even during the hottest days of the year.

Any thoughts from the fish management guys?

Stream inflow will provide lots of contamination from wild fish living in the stream. This could cause numerous management issues. IMO WE and YP should survive okay in KS ponds that are 14-18 ft deep. Depth will benefit in drought and reducing winterkill. IMO a more important issue than expanding the size is isolating it from the stream and reducing tree leaf inputs. You don't even want flood water entering and contaminating the hopefully balanced fishery. Smallmouth are also an option in your area.

The majority of the time I set the kids up with a simple hook and bobber rig. Long shanked hooks baited with minnows that were trapped from the ponds. My problem was the hooks always seemed to get deep throated.

If I had a hatchery source that was close to me and the MN permiting was faster, I would have continued with the WE and done a put and take. I would have "over stocked" each spring knowing that x number would be removed or killed.

Mnfish - Thanks for the advice.

Bill - I am very worried about wild fish contamination from the stream no matter what type of fish I choose to stock and manage.

I am still in the planning stage of a fairly unique pond design, so I think I will start a new thread in the Questions & Observations forum.

When a pond receives wild fish contamination, I think the best predator to be dominant in the pond is LMB. There was a fairly recent article in PBoss magazine about a great fishery that had great LMB angling and the pond received wild fish from periodic stream events. I will search for the article and hopefully report back here. IMO WE would not be the predator of choice to control perodic events of wild fish contamination.

Bill - I started a new thread in Questions & Observations.

So far; you, Sunil, and TJ have said that contamination is inevitable. I am sometimes a little slow on the uptake, but I think I am starting to sense a trend.

The article that I referred to above is titled "Sometimes You Can Have It All" by Dr. Jeff Slipke. Pond Boss Nov-Dec 2010 pg 6-10. In the article Jeff describes a 30 ac pond in AK that is hyper-eutrophic with a constant algae bloom. The pond is shallow max depth 5 ft, high hardness and has continual well water flow of 1500gpm that keeps the pond viable. High fish productivity consists of LMB, HSB, CC, blue cat, wh.crappie, BG GSF, tilapia, and contaminated with numerous species of rough fish: gizzard shad, threadfin shad, drum, bigmouth buffalo, carp, grass carp, spotted sucker, bullhead. Pond has low LMB recruitment which is unusual. Unusual fishery balance is rare and considered incredable by the author.

Add me to the inevitable list.