Question 1 : Has anyone ever ordered feed trained F1 LMB from Suttle Fish Farm ? If so, how was your experience? http://www.suttlefish.com/F_1_Bass.html

Question 2 : YOY F1 fingerlings at Suttle are offered at $90 per 100 fish. This seems too good to be true. Will LMB that small stay on feed after being introduced into a new pond?

Question 3 : Has anyone ever bought HSB direct from Keo farms, I'm contemplating getting 1000 for a new 1 Ac. pond to see how they fare, the price in 2006 was : The small one inch fingerlings are (lol, were in 2006) $0.17 each / 1,000 per box + overnight delivery fees.

Any stocking advice would be appreciated.

1) check your PMs

2) While they are small yes - as they get bigger they will eat natural forage and some will keep eating pellets also.

3) No - I think Bruce has.

Yes, I have.

Works great. Shipping can be a little pricey, but survival is good. You'd better hurry because it's getting late in the year for 1-inchers. The price goes spiraling upwards when fish reach 2-inches. The fish get more expensive, and the per unit shipping goes way, way up.

PM me if you want more information.

My experience is the best way to improve the numbers of bass that stay "on feed" is to after receiving them to raise them in a smaller space such as a small pond, in a cage or behind a blocking net. The longer... the better. The longer one can keep them "on feed" in a confined area, the stronger the imprinting of eating pellets becomes and the less likely they will resort to eating natural foods once released into a larger habitat. Extended habituation is the key to keeping a high percentage of feed trained fish "on feed" after they are released into the "wide open spaces".

Bill is absolutely right. At least that is my experience with largemouth bass too.

I used to raise feed trained largemouths until I discontinued them. Easiest fish I've ever raised. To grow out in a cage until they were large enough to release free into the pond with the larger bass without becoming forage it wasn't difficult at all. I had up to 400 up to almost 6 lbs. waiting for the chow like they were starving to death up to twice a day.

If you have any questions Eastland shoot away!

Another way to get fish to better stay "on feed" is to buy larger fish that have been feed trained. This is often easier said than done because pellet raised fish are often sold quickly by hatcheries and finding larger fish that are pellet trained for long periods can be quite difficult.

On this topic, it also helps fish to stay "on feed" by having a low amount of natural foods available in the pond. Pellet raised fish that have a hard time locating natural foods will soon realize that the welfare pellet foods are much easier to obtain. Of course this is counter productive because a low amount of natural food items in a pond suppresses growth of the remaining fish or non pellet eating fish. In the many ponds where the fish have low relative weights (RW = body wt/standard wt) as in thin bodied, the pond already has either too low amounts of natural foods or too many fish present eating what natural food items that are being produced (usually both). Thus in these situations fish stocked as pellet eating fish, will usually remain on the fish pellet welfare system. But remember that when small, expensive, pellet raised fish are stocked into an existing pond with regular adults, the newly stocked fish are very often just food items for the bigger fish. It would have been cheaper but probably not any wiser to stock fathead minnows. IMO the better management plan would to be to remove some of the too abundant thin bodied fish.

I am a strong believer in habituation for several reasons as set out in the link below. I have some LMB that are 3+ years old and still eat pellets and natural food. Those LMB stayed behind the net from 3 inches (size from the hatchery already feed trained) until they were 12 in +- . They stayed behind the net from March until Oct. along with 3in CNBG. The CNBG were 7 inches when released.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22246&fpart=1


http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post26019

Wow, I quickly find out that I failed to provide enough information. Jeff's presentation at the PB conference really got my attention, here's why. I have a new 'soon to be filled' 1+ Acre pond...but, I will expand it to 2+ acres if my long range goals work out. We all only get to stock an initial pond once, and I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried what I want to do. I want to stock ONLY feed trained F1's and HSB at the smallest sizes available, no forage fish at all...strictly feed. Once the survivors become adapted to feed, and grow to approx 6", I want to introduce adult 6" CNBG & RES. Can this be done, and what am I missing?

Good question. How long will you wait to stock the CNBG? I still think the LMB (at least many) are going to do the natural thing and eat BG. They will still eat pellets. I am confident that the 2nd generation of new LMB yoy (second spawn) will tend to be less pellet eaters. They are genetically primed to eat plankton then fish not pellets. Some will eat pellets but many will not. Don't know about the HSB. I would guess over time they will eat both pellets and fish.

My question is what do you gain longer term from this approach ? You might be better off stocking all the fish at once and feed small feed and over time a mix of larger and small feed as the fish get bigger. The 2inch LMB and HSB are not at first going to eat 2-3 inch BG. In the south those 2-3 in BG are going to grow faster than the first year LMB gape size increase. The LMB will be longer than the BG ( 10-12in at one year vs 6-7in for the BG) but by in large the LMB will not be able to eat them as their gape will not be big enough.

Russell, if I had a brand spankin’ new 1 acre pond, my goal to raise “trophy” size CNBG and continuous annual 3 – 5 lb HSB fishing, this would be my initial plan.

100, 8’+ adult Hybrid Striped Bass @ ~ $3.50 ….~$350.00
(1000 1-2” HSB @ ~ $025 ….~$250.00 + shipping)

50, 6”+ male pure Florida CNBG (if available) @ ~$3.50+…. ~$175.00+

25, 4-6” RES broodstock @ ~ $2.50 ….. $62.50

(This initial cost is less than my annual feed bill)
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GC and tilapia as needed to control aquatic vegetation and FA.
NO structure in pond w/ good aeration system and 1 Texas Hunter feeder
......................................................

I would plan an annual “stocking ladder”.
All would be dependent upon maintaining “good” water quality.
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IF my goal is to have feed rained F1 LMB bass, and it would not be, I would introduce them the 2nd or 3rd year, and introduce a “few” BC to control the LMB spawn. I would go to great lengths to insure no spawning structure.
You mentioned that you plan for future pond expansion, and only then would I stock LMB and provide “adequate” structure.
……………………………………………………………………………………………..

I am convinced the reason we were able to produce large numbers of 8 – 10”+ CNBG was because of LMB and CC predation, and leaning toward the “monster” CC as the major predator.

HSB mortality is more apparent due to non-reproductive species than with reproductive species. If it were my pond, which it isn’t, I would determine HSB annual stocking rate dependent upon planned harvest, with perhaps as much as WAG 20% mortality under the best of extreme Texas heat and drought conditions.

You will have some of the best sport fishing anyone could possibly imagine, catching numbers of 2-5lb HSB each trip to your pond, as long as you continue annual stocking.

IMO, a one-acre pond is a “fish kill” in waiting unless close attention is paid to water quality and biomass.

Good luck and thanks for sharing.
Post lots of pictures.

I just purchased 400 1.5" HSB from KEO and they shipped them directly to me. They all lived and have doubled in size in about 3 weeks. 300 of them are in a 4x4x4 cage and 100 are in a mini pond.
Total cost with shipping was $212.00

My secret is out!

Excellent HSB source for folks that have cages, blocking nets or grow-out ponds...
Expensive fish food otherwise.
Been there - done that...

Question?
Does Keo have technology to spawn HSB year round or only early spring?

Hey, you guys are pros..I'll gladly pay your asking price for 8 - 10 inch year old HSB...you have worked hard for this quality fish...

You both raise excellent points, but let me throw theoretical stocking questions back, while mixing both of your responses.

First, I'm only going thru life once, and I'm already 48, so every extra $ goes toward my pond or wildlife on my property. My family gets their share, but luckily I have a little left over. I do not have an aerator in place, or a well for supplimental water, but I will. Let's assume they are there now, much like the water that isn't in "this" new pond. I plan to expand it to 2 acres in 2010, and 3+ 2012...the terrain and watershed should make this project a "go" in the long run...roughly 10K per acre for additions at today's prices.

If I remove LMB from the mix : What "if" I added crappie along with the CNBG/RES combination? Wouldn't I get good growth around the board? It should force the panfish size above the 3" gape of a HSB right? I really would like crappie as they are my favorite fish to eat, does their presence dictate that I must have cover...I'm thinking not if it's a put and take ordeal?

If LMB are in the mix, and they very well may enter due to upstream conditions, what damage really occurs if tilapia are annually a part of the food chain?

Just fyi...I love fishing and tossed 70+ LMB to the coons this spring in my small 1/3 acre pond, population control is something I should be able to manage "if" I see an unusual balance.

Hey Bruce, many of us have known about Keo, we just haven't perfected the "Texas" network to get 1000's into a pond, and snyc up to divide them out! Word leaks out when you can get a baby 1" for two bits, and their 3" friends cost 10X

George gives me an idea...I need to build "another" pond...the 8" HSB growout pond Keep the ideas coming, I have 170 acres of watershed, I just might end up creating a fish farm...for myself

One word...

Brilliant!

If you want HSB and Crappie then why not try the approach below. The Vatsa's (AL and David) are with Todd's help.

From - http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id=1#import

Southeastern Pond Management reports in its client newsletter excellent success (so far) with Crappie in Southern ponds. This is the same company that one of our PB Convention speakers (Dr. Jeff Slipke) works for. He also provided the PB Forum through Dave Willis info on SMB in Southern ponds. The newsletter contains an article on that as well.

Back to the article on Crappie. With research from reservoirs on HSB feeding they found what we know that the HSB ate a lot of TShad. They also found that HSB eat a lot of young crappie. With that info they decided to try that application on some test ponds. They started with a clean pond and added TShad , GShiners and FH in the fall. The next spring they stocked BC fingerlings followed by HSB in the fall. Over the next 4 years they saw fast growth among the crappie with little crappie recruitment. No sign of the usual problems with crappie in ponds. They then created more ponds like the first and report that electrofishing results are very promising - slab crappie with no overpopulation and - yes the HSB are doing well. A pic of one of the HSB appears to be about 8 lbs. A pic of one of the crappie looks to be about 1.5 to 2 lbs.

Update - additional info on this idea -

North American Journal of Fisheries Management
Fish Community Response to Hybrid Striped Bass Introduction in Small Warmwater Impoundments
J. Wesley Neal*, Richard L. Noble, and James A. Rice


Results from this study suggest hybrid striped bass may have consumed enough small black crappies to prevent overpopulation without eliminating recruitment. However, further study is warranted using a larger number of ponds and differing conditions. If these results can be replicated, enhancing crappie fisheries while simultaneously creating a hybrid striped bass fisheries would be a favorable alternative to complete pond reclamation.

I wonder how vital the TShad are.

IMO they are the key. High in food value and the right size for both large crappie and HSB. Also they are pelagic like the crappie and HSB. No other combination has yielded this result. I also think the stocking order and timing are critical.

I have a gut feeling that tilapia are a LOT less expensive and would give me most of the advantages threadfin provide...especially in a 1 acre pond. I'm probably naive, but I don't think crappie pose a problem when coupled with HSB.

I would encourage you to give it a try!

Also I would gladly purchase larger HSB if they were readily available in my area.

I do have a truckload of 5" HSB coming up in about a week or two.

They will be on the same truck as 1500 lbs of feed trained largemouth for a client with a 10 acre lake. His lake is brand new, and completely full of gizzard shad, threadfin shad, and fathead minnows.

Mornin guys: Haven't chimed in for a while since I have really been working to get my structure in place, and the water ph and alkalinity balanced. My ph is a pretty steady 7.3, and the lime I've put in has cleared up the water to about 18". I have a very small seepage issue below the dam that I think will correct itself during the winter freezing/thawing and the general 'curing' of a 6 month old pond. Thoughts.... Addition ally, I think I am ready to begin to stocking. I want BG, Read Ear, bass, and perhaps a few catfish. Should I put in forage fish first? Then, about how many of what kind and in what order? I would rather take my time and get it right, than hurry up and screw it up. I've got some ideas, but would really like the "Pond Boss Crew" to chime in with thoughts. MANY thanks. Jim