Pond Boss
Posted By: walboknls1 Structure? - 04/16/06 05:10 PM
Ok guys. i finally have my pond finished! A little under 1 acre and about 20 feet deep on most parts. It is dry to the bone and i want to set up some structure. But i have heard many things that people use. Is their one particular set up that works the best? My brother just had his house built so i have alot of wood and pvc. My goal HSB in the 5lb range. Is that reasonable? Any and all info is very much appreciated. Thanks ahead frank ps i will post pics later tonight

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j70/Walboknls/?
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Structure? - 04/16/06 11:28 PM
Wood deteriorates over time. PVC doesn't and you can get creative and build some sort of structure with it. I personally like rocks and cedar trees. Fish will usually hang in the upper 10 ft. of water but, in Texas, that can vary a lot during the summer.
Posted By: ewest Re: Structure? - 04/17/06 02:08 AM
Here is a link to a list of structure/cover links
but HSB don't need any as they are open water fish.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000154#000003

I just copied it and here it is.

general stct. info methods:

Below is a link to the new Habitat Manual from the Southern Division of The American Fisheries Society. It is a great resource for info on and building of cover/stct. I think you will enjoy this and get some ideas including drawings/pics.

http://www.sdafs.org/reservoir/manuals/habitat/Main.htm

Also there is a new Aquatic Vegetation Manual linked below

http://www.sdafs.org/reservoir/manuals/aqveg/veghome.htm

If you have water depth fluctuations or will fish in fall through spring (as well as summer) then some deep cover is good. I like cover that goes from the bottom at 15ft all the way to or near the surface in a few locations.


Artificial man-made structure.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000161;p=1

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000196;p=1#000000

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000173;p=1#000000


Pallets as stct.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000132


Xmas trees as stct.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000083;p=1


Gravel for BG spawning

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000124


Rip-rap as stct.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000134


Rock for LMB spawning.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000120;p=1


Tires as stct.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000138


Sand for spawning.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000115


General stct./cover ideas

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000016


Oak trees.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000008


Pond pics. stct.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b165/ahvatsa/


thermocline and islands.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001578#000005

There are hundreds of threads here on stct. and cover. The above are a few good ones many of which have links to additional material and even better pics. Get the PB mag. and the PB book on pond mgt. and ask all the questions you like and we will help you through this. Ponds are great fun.
Posted By: george Re: Structure? - 04/17/06 10:53 AM
walboknls1
If you plan to stock HSB, you might want to consider leaving the deeper area of your pond near the dam, structure free.

Our sructure is placed in shallower mid/upper end of pond.

George Glazener
N.E. Texas
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/17/06 04:04 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by walboknls1:
My goal HSB in the 5lb range. Is that reasonable?
Walboknls1,

Absolutely reasonable, given time and ample food supply. We have several 4 pound HSB that are the result of three growing seasons...and expect them to hit five pounds+ this fall in their fourth growing season. HSB need lots of feed, either natural or artificial to generate that growth.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Structure? - 04/17/06 10:14 PM
You can stock HSBs and put them on pelletted food, at a rate up to 200 per acre. Or you can rely on the food chain for production of HSBs by stocking standard baitfish like fatheads, bluegill, shad, tilapia, etc. Stocking rate for HSBs raised on baitfish would be 50-75 per acre. Good aeration is important with the HSBs.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/17/06 10:47 PM
Todd,

After a couple of growing seasons, those 200 HSB per acre would be about 400 pounds of HSB per acre and after three years, could be approaching 800 pounds per acre, assuming none/few are removed. At least, that type of growth would happen in my ponds in my experience.

Are you saying that is a good/safe pond management strategy? Seems like the number that's critical to the pond manager is pounds of HSB per acre at any given time, not number of fish per acre and the pond should be managed to that number. Is that incorrect?

My approach, which isn't necessarily right or wrong but does work for me, is to stock a few HSB each year, say 10 to 15 per acre and begin removing them after a couple of years. That way, you have a continuous supply of them growing and don't have an overpopulation/weight problem to contend with all at the same time. A stocking approach/plan geared to the number of fish you plan to use per acre per year seemed to fit my needs better than harvesting large numbers of HSB all at once...but it all depends on your objectives, Walboknls1
Posted By: george Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 12:17 AM
After a couple of growing seasons, those 200 HSB per acre would be about 400 pounds of HSB per acre and after three years, could be approaching 800 pounds per acre, assuming none/few are removed.


ML, I believe we have discussed this subject both on the forum and by email.

A HSB survival rate that you suggest for your pond seems to be an unlikely asssmption that “non/few” are removed.

“It depends” on how many fish are harvested from a “put and take” HSB pond, and how many are lost to “catch and release”.

By your own admission, the HSB will fight until it dies if caught on light tackle, your 5 wt flyrod if I remember correctly.

I suggest that it is good practice to use heavier tackle and bring the fish to hand quickly before release.

I don’t believe there will be an over population with the recommended beginning stocking rate and management, with appropriate supplemental annual stocking program.
Posted By: ewest Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 12:51 AM
The more the pond is treated in an aquaculture method (feeding , aeration , supp. forage , detail to water quality , put and take mgt. etc) the more lbs. of fish that can be grown per acre. The trick is in knowing how to do that and when to do what. Some of the phosphate pit ponds in Fla. have fish in the thousands of pounds per acre with little mgt .
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 02:30 AM
There you go ewest.

200 HSBs per acre, averaging 5 lbs ea = 1000 lbs per acre. This amount of fish biomass is completely sustainable with an aerated pond...easy actually. What the guy does after reaching this goal is up to him.....but harvest would be advisable to allow for further growth of the remaining population and for restocking.

Easy...stock them, feed them, catch them, eat them, restock them. Not complicated or pushed from the fish dealer.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 12:56 PM
walboknls1,

You've heard from the experts....1000 pounds per acre is recommended and completely, easily sustainable.

If you follow those recommendations, I'd sure like to hear how it turns out....forgive me if I have my doubts as to the wisdom of the average pond owner trying to carry 1000 pounds per acre through the Texas droughts and summers.
Posted By: walboknls1 Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 02:26 PM
thanks everyone. as you can kind of tell it is pretty much a bowl. So I just need to put structure around the edge of the pond? just for the FH and the BG? do i not need anything in the middle of the pond? also what do you recommend as far as stocking rates for my pond. I was thinking: 15 lbs fatheads,100 copernose, 100 redear, 75 hsb? What do you guys think? More-less? Also how do I determine what type of "perch" I buy? Todd I will be giving you a call as soon as we get some water (maybe Thursday or Friday). also meadowlark yes indeed I am a "average" pond owner but I have some experts on the forum! \:D thanks alot guys. sorry for carrying on but so many questions. thanks alot frank

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/juju2254/Easter2006071.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/juju2254/Easter2006070.jpg
Posted By: Debra King Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 02:32 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by overtonfisheries:


200 HSBs per acre, averaging 5 lbs ea = 1000 lbs per acre. This amount of fish biomass is completely sustainable with an aerated pond...easy actually. What the guy does after reaching this goal is up to him.....but harvest would be advisable to allow for further growth of the remaining population and for restocking.

Easy...stock them, feed them, catch them, eat them, restock them. Not complicated or pushed from the fish dealer.
Todd,

Forgive me for I am still learning here, but does the above statement hold true with any fish versus biomass, or is it only a HSB thing? I am trying to ascertain how feasible it is when stocking general ponds, and how much upkeep is required per lbs per acre per species.

Thanks
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 04:29 PM
Just for fun...I did a search on "biomass".

Interesting reading.

Here's just a few findings:

From Bill Cody: "Keep in mind that there should be 6 to 10 pounds of forage fish ALWAYS present for every predator. Some of the SMB and HSB will go "off feed" and about 50% to 75% of the SMB offspring will NOT learn to eat pellets."

My words...That would imply that for 1000 pounds of HSB per acre one would need 10,000 pounds of forage per acre...

More interesting stuff:

From Bruce:

"HSB tolerance for warm water starts to wane as they reach larger sizes."

From Bruce:
Hybrid Striped Bass optimal temps.

32-50 degrees--no feeding
51-62 degrees--females staging at spawning areas (good fishing for biggest fish)
63-68 degrees--males join in on false spawn (best fishing, low stress)
69-75 degrees--fish very active, low to moderate stress
76-80 degrees--moderate to high stress
81 degrees and above--very high stress and high angling mortality

Also from Bruce:

"Back to your question. 100 pounds of HSB per acre is a manageable number."

The above quote from Bruce is the one I've tried to follow, myself. Lots of other interesting stuff on biomass especially as related to GG's.

I couldn't find anyone advocating 1000 pounds per acre of HSB in Texas summers, except in this particular post...but maybe I missed it. I'm sure if its there someone will bring it to the readers attention. Thanks.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 05:56 PM
IIRC, the 1000 lbs./acre was referring to treating the pond more like an aquaculture setting.

If you were running HSB production as an aquaculture business (in TX or anywhere), to me that would mean state of the art aeration (air injection plus maybe horizontal rolling with water injection), well water replenishing to cover evaporative losses (or even for cooling, as Cecil does - possible if your well-to-pond ratio is high enough), periodic pond draining for harvest (with the implied flushing of at least the suspended and dissolved accumulated nutrients and fish by-products - do fish farmers ever scrape pond bottoms or otherwise remove silt to occasionally reduce what must be an awesome bulld-up of organics from all the feeding?), and (most importantly, probably) total reliance on pelleted feed to support those 1000 lbs. of HSB per acre.

I doubt an aquaculture business can afford to turn forage fish into market fish when pelleted food will suffice, so we eliminate the forage fish from the HSB aquaculture pond and hence the 10,000 lbs of biomass they represent. I imagine, while HSB experts like ML will know, that not all HSB will thrive on pellets, although I suspect a very high % would. In an aquaculture setting, the HSB that won't gain weight to market size on pellets would have to be considered culls.

Does that make 1000 lbs. of HSB/acre in Texas sound more realistic? At least in the UNrealistic (from a sport pond viewpoint) aquaculture pond? So if we approach raising HSB from more of an aquaculture perpective, can we talk about approaching 1000 lbs/acre of HSB?
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 06:13 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:
IIRC, the 1000 lbs./acre was referring to treating the pond more like an aquaculture setting.
Theo,

One of the aspects of this thread was stocking rate for HSB for the average pond owner, which I consider myself sometimes to be on the few days I'm lucky enough to be that good.

If Todd and EWEST were only talking about special situations, then I misunderstood and I apologize.

Todd stated how "easy" and "completely sustainable" 1000 pounds per acre of HSB is and that completely surprised me. Living in Texas, where many places are already currently over 100 degrees, and carrying 1000 pounds per acre of a fish that is without question high temperature sensitive, strikes me as a questionable practice for the average pond owner, but I'm no expert...and certainly not planning 1000 pounds of HSB per acre.

Imagine the amount of forage and feed in 90 degree water temps for several months for 1000 pounds of fish per acre...thats a surprising recommendation to this average pond owner, even if no one else finds it surprising.
Posted By: Dave Davidson Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 07:32 PM
I wouldn't even consider 1000 pounds of fish per acre. It appears, to me, that it would take too many positive assumptions. I agree that it probably can be done; but not by the average guy. Todd may be able to do it but I couldn't.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 09:38 PM
Here's my original statement. Read it again, carefully this time, ML. Check out the bold print as well please. Also please find more info below.

You can stock HSBs and put them on pelletted food, at a rate up to 200 per acre. Or you can rely on the food chain for production of HSBs by stocking standard baitfish like fatheads, bluegill, shad, tilapia, etc. Stocking rate for HSBs raised on baitfish would be 50-75 per acre.

The 200/acre stocking rate is based on stocking only HSBs, no other fish. HSBs are more likely to stay on feed this way, but sure some small percentage will go off feed. It is also based on a feeding program and good aeration. The 50-75 per acre stocking rate is based on forage based production.

The "average" pond owner does not know that this forum exists. The "average" pond owner is probably out fishing and drinking beer instead of pondering the if's, and's, or but's. I see this forum as a potential wealth of information for folks who want more than the average pond. So if walboknls1 wants to stock 200 per acre, I'll tell him how to do it and make clear to him his risks and rewards. ;\)
Posted By: ewest Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 09:59 PM
I think my post was clear. I did not recommend any course of action and do not think it can be fairly said that I did. I will be clear.

The closer a pond is to an aquaculture operation (some factors set out above) the more pounds of fish per acre it can support.

You have to know what to do and when to do it to have success under those conditions.

Very specific -- phosphate pit ponds in parts of Fla. support thousands of pounds of fish per acre with little mgt. That is a real specific fact from fisheries biologists who have worked them for years.

Any assessment of a population has to take into account #s stocked , recruitment, growth or loss of weight , and morts. Morts. for HSB come from natural causes , heat/temps (in the south), fish stress from fishing , and those taken out and eaten. Below is some info on HSB morts in southern ponds and resiv. with little fishing pressure.

"Minimum survival estimates of hybrid striped bass in this study were comparable
to survival estimates from most reservoir studies. For example, survival of hybrids in
Alabama from age 1 to age 2 was 30.9% (Moss and Lawson 1982). These fish were
similar in size to our Phase II fish, which exhibited a minimum of 37.5% survival after
348 days in pond 2."

The ranges were from 16% to 88% survival per year. I think it safe to say that over 3 years in a southern pond many of the HSB will be morts. from one of the above methods.

No one suggested having 1000 lbs of HSB per acre in a pond. The recommendation (not mine but as I understand it) was 200 HSB per acre stocked as advanced fingerlings. If 100 (which is a stretch) live to 3 yrs and 3 lbs you will have 300 lbs of HSB per acre which is manageable (if at all possible) in a well managed pond with feeding and aeration. If the cause of death is heat (as is often the case in southern ponds) then it is likely to kill them all (or most) if it is 10 or 200 per acre. See the results of the study I posted recently where the heat resulted in the death of most of the HSB/LMB and BG of larger size.

So no one will misunderstand this post I do not run our ponds anywhere near capacity and do not suggest that you do unless you are both a very good mgr. and understand the consequences of error. But take the time to understand the principles at work and insist on having as many facts possible first (if you can get them) - not just half of them.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 10:34 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by overtonfisheries:
There you go ewest.

200 HSBs per acre, averaging 5 lbs ea = 1000 lbs per acre. This amount of fish biomass is completely sustainable with an aerated pond...easy actually. What the guy does after reaching this goal is up to him.....but harvest would be advisable to allow for further growth of the remaining population and for restocking.

Easy...stock them, feed them, catch them, eat them, restock them. Not complicated or pushed from the fish dealer.
Todd,

I didn't make up the 1000 pounds per acre...I was only reacting with surprise at how easy and completely sustainable you characterized 1000 pounds per acre as being. Geez, I would have thought 400 pounds per acre a couple of years after stocking was scary in our Texas climate....but to learn that 1000 pounds is easy....well it surprised me.

I think a discussion of the 1000 pounds per acre and the stocking rate was in order so that all could make up their own minds. I also think a search of past posts on this topic is very revealing. If I misstated anyone's words, then my bad...but I remain surprised at the stated ease of sustaining 1000 pounds per acre in the Texas summers.
Posted By: george Re: Structure? - 04/18/06 11:04 PM
ML, if I remeber correctly, last year you asked Overton where you could obtain large HSB from a commercial seafood operator.

He provided you the information and volunteered an aerated tank.

I don't recall if this was a PM or a post - if PM my apologies.

Do you still have the link to this Company?
It will probably shed some light on this subject since you have elevated this discussion.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 12:16 AM
George,

As I recall, the name of the company was Silver Streak and was first mentioned by Bruce on the Forum. They do not sell to individuals and agreed to sell me some only because I basically begged them to do so. I decided against purchasing from them because at the time I was "enjoying" poaching and figured there just wasn't any point in buying 2 pound fish for someone else to catch and enjoy. \:\) Yes, Todd graciously agreed to provide me the loan of a fish hauler container.

I don't understand what is meant by "elevating the discussion". I was simply questioning the "easy" and "complete sustainability" of 1000 pounds of large HSB (five pounds each) in the heat of our Texas summers. I didn't mean to start World War III.

As I have observed and learned more about HSB over the years, I have learned that they are very high temperature sensitive(high stress in anything over 81 degrees). In June, July, August, and September any HSB caught in my ponds that weighs three pounds or more will die from that experience, regardless of tackle being used. I didn't know that when I started, although Bruce did warn of that high temperature intolerance on several occasions. In looking back at past posts, Bruce clearly warned about that and he also re-iterated his experience with stocking HSB at the limits. When Bruce says 100 pounds of HSB is manageable, I take that to the bank and when he says that large HSB are very temperature intolerant, I also listen to that, better now than earlier. When Todd said 1000 pounds of 5 pound HSB were easy to completely sustain, I was surprised.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 12:17 AM
This taken from Culture and Propagation of Striped Bass and it's Hybrids:

In a paragraph describing semi-intensive production trials, "In the South Carolina studies, stocking densities ranged from 2700-4800 fish/acre with phase II fingerlings averagint 1.8 fish per lb. After 10-12 months of culture, fish averaged 1.9 lbs, with survival ranging from 93%-96%. Production levels were related to stocking density, with 8655 lbs per acre produced at the highest density."

This is not an example of what the "average" pond-owner should try. This is an example of the potential only. Do not try this at home. Warning signs everywhere.

BUT, 1000 lbs of fish per acre with good aeration is completely sustainable....sustainable....sustainable. Of course that statement is based on some assumptions, like...yes there will be water in the pond during the summer, yes good water quality is important, etc. 100% survival rate is not expected. This is hard to control, but you'd have to stock enough fish initially to counter 3-5 years of mortality.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 12:28 AM
Silver Streak is located near El Campo, southwest of Houston, where Texas summer heat lasts for 6 months of the year. They raise the fish. Give em a call ask about heat related losses.

From the same manual it is reported than the optimum temperature for growth of hybrid striped bass was 80 degrees F, with peak food consumption at 82.4 degrees F. It is also reported that the optimum temperature for growth of small 8g size hybrids was between 81 and 88 degrees F, but that optimum drops fo 80 degrees F for 130g size hybrids.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 12:38 AM
I said it was completely sustainable in an "aerated" pond, then I advised harvest and restocking of smaller fish again.

Also, a drought is not something that just comes on suddenly...you wake up in the morning and your pond is dry. If pond volume is not controllable then harvest some fish according to receding water levels.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 12:47 AM
Posted by ML..."Imagine the amount of forage and feed in 90 degree water temps for several months for 1000 pounds of fish per acre...thats a surprising recommendation to this average pond owner, even if no one else finds it surprising."

Again, I did not suggest 1000 lbs per acre of HSBs along with forage fish in the same pond.
Posted By: Debra King Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 01:34 AM
Todd if you get a chance I would like your input in regards to the question I posed to you on page 1 of this thread. This forum has become a wealth of learning experience for me, and I would like your opinion either on forum or by pm.

Thank you in advance!
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 02:17 AM
Here's a post from Bob from awhile back. He is much more eloquent than I, and covers many species.

Geez, guys. I'm not sure I completely understand the question. Is the question how many fish can be raised in a single species put and take pond situation? Or, is the question which combinations of these different fish work well together and how many of each can you grow? Or, is the question how well will all these species of fish work in one pond? And then, recruitment comes only from restocking, based on what we might assume 'natural' mortality to be, basing that concept on old age?

To understand how to answer all of these questions, we first need to understand a pond's ability to produce, then sustain a population of fish, artificially propped up with pelleted fish food.

Here's what I have learned through experience...watching, thinking, building, draining, measuring and weighing lots and lots of fish. Oh yeah, and reading, too.

One variable will be age. Different fish have different age limits, based on geography, habitat and food chain. For example, a native northern strain largemouth bass in Texas can live to 8 years of age, sometimes 10, but one fish in particular, in Illinois, as I recall, was documented to live to 22. For discussion, let's assume each fish has 'x' number of heartbeats, then passes on to the big skillet in the sky. Relatively speaking, the number of heartbeats is an environmental consequence, since fish are cold blooded (like a handful of our distinguished colleagues on this website)

So, my take on the individual fish are as follows...

LMB-Largemouth bass. Two key thoughts here. LMB are instinctively predatory, so a pond's carrying capacity is directly related to the amount of natural food available. Typically, a one acre pond can support 50-75 pounds of LMB, with strong support from bluegill. The second thought is concerning LMB conditioned to feed. I know the fish farmer who started this trend, and they claim 4-5,000 pounds per acre. But, they can exchange water, feed the fish religiously, and use the most expensive feed on the market. But, for John Q. Pondmeister, 300-400 pounds per acre is probably more reasonable. The limiting factor is how complete the feed is. Keep in mind bass on feed are typically obese, and their lifespans are shorter. How many fish to stock? Depends how big you want them to become. In the first example, stock 50 fingerlings, or as few as 20 advanced intermediate size fish to begin. For the second, stock as many as 100-200 fish per acre. Expect pellet trained bass to convert about 3 to 1. Bass which eat live food exclusively convert around 10-1.

SMB-Smallmouth bass. SMB can be maintained at similar rates as largemouth bass, when stocked as the primary predator. Standing crops are similar to LMB. Habitat issues are considerably different for SMB compared to LMB and have a direct impact on the pond's ability to grow and sustain the population. As goes the pond, so goes SMB. Not as much for LMB. If feed trained, expect 3 to 1, maybe a bit less.

HSB-Hybrid Striped Bass. HSB are 'patrol' type eaters, opting to stay on the move, in deeper, open water. But, an average pond owner can expect to grow as much as 400-600 pounds of HSB in a one acre pond, all things being even for the 'right' habitat. Numbers of fish? Again, depends on the size. I would go with 100-200 in a single species stocking, dependant of fish food. An old hybrid striper in the south is 8-10 years. I honestly don't know how long they will live. Expect 2 or 3 to 1 as feed conversion rates.

CC-Channel catfish. These are the easy guys. We can easily stock as many as 100 in a one acre pond, not feed them, and they will thrive and grow to 2-4 pounds each. But, feed them, and you can stock up to 1,000 and expect them to make it to one pound apiece, when productivity is maxed. When a pond pushes to 1,000 pounds of channel cats, expect nature to push back. A 15 year old channel cat, in the south, is old. They convert fish food near 2 to 1.

Sterile Grass Carp. These fish are less known, because no one raises them for a put and take fish. They are used to control excess vegetation. But, they convert wet weight of food somewhere in the range of 40 to 1. I've watched grass carp go from one to seven pounds in a Texas lake from November to July. But, how many can a pond support? These fish are quite different. They eat methodically, all day long, and gain weight fast. But, once the food supply goes away, they drop that weight almost as fast. I have seen grass carp grow from 35 pounds to 12 in less than six months. So, a put and take pond of grass carp could literally see 20 fish swell to 700-800 pounds totally, then shrink and maintain at 300. Again, feeding alters the equation, but not much with grass carp, unless you plan to add lots of grass clippings, hay or bibb lettuce. These creatures normally live to 13-14 years in warmer climates.

Walleye-these top line predator fish fight to make a life. They eat other fish, including each other, often, without conscience. If a one acre pond can support 30-50 adult walleye, give yourself a big pat on the back. But, to get them as big as six or seven pounds, budget 8-10 years and lots of gallons of northern fathead minnows. While walleye are predators, their habits are such that fish as bluegill aren't efficient forage fish. Walleye would rather live deep, in structure. Bluegill choose shallow, in dense cover. Walleye convert live food at the rate of 8-12 pounds of fish to one pound of walleye.

HBG-Hybrid Bluegill. Lots of debate about this fish. As a target, singular species, a one acre pond can easily support 500-600 pounds. If they weigh an average of half a pound, stock 1,000-1,200. Want bigger? Stock fewer. Pushing the limit? A pond could grow as many as 1,000 pounds of HSB, but water quality issues would quickly follow. These guys convert fish food at less than 2 to 1. They live as long as 6-8 years.

Now, let's shift gears. Combining these fish completely changes the equations. Think about how each species lives, what they eat, their behavior patterns, habitat requirements and you will see what I mean. Alone, each fish might thrive in a one acre pond. But, put them together, and it's like the Pittsburgh Steelers lining up against the Nebraska Cornhuskers as they tease your favorite high school football team. In the meantime, HSB pirates are raiding the fridge in the middle of the pond, while LMB fight for space with walleye, who have an advantage over smallmouth bass, while spinach eating Popeye-sailor man grass carp are vegging out. Over there, in shallow water, laughing and munching, the HBG dart in and out, eating while trying not to be eaten. Then, spread an even helping of "productivity" around, and soon, you see fewer fish of each type as they thrive, while the other decline due to high competition, room rent and a run on the grocery stores.

Throw in one other factoid. Different individuals within each species exhibit different behavior. Some are aggressive, some are passive. Some grow fast, some grow slowly, just like all other creatures.

Here's the bottom line, from my beady little brain. A one acre pond, fed moderate amounts of fish food, will safely sustain 600-800 pounds of game fish. We can pick the combinations, but Mother Nature will choose the success, based on habitat, size distribution, growth rates, aggressiveness and luck of the predatory draw. (If a fish is eaten, is it our fault?)

Regarding the restocking question, the only way to know is to figure it out by regular monitoring of individual fish and their body condition. If regular samples of fish determine the little gems are overweight, the pond can support more. Stock a few. But, if the little toots are bit on the runway model side of size, there are too many, or not quite enough little food nuggets.

Now, what was the question?
Posted By: Sunil Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 03:09 AM
I would like to request that all of the posts on this thread be left on the forum, and not edited or deleted.

Everyone should be able to read these postings and make their own decisions.
Posted By: george Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 11:01 AM
By the way, if any HSB fans are seriously concerned about the topics currently debated, a reference manual from the American Fisheries Society, CULTURE AND PROPAGATION OF STRIPED BASS AND IT’S HYBRIDS, edited by Reginal M. Harrell, Jerome Howard Kirby and R. Vernon Minton, is highly recommended.

It covers many of the points currently discussed on this topic
Posted By: Debra King Re: Structure? - 04/19/06 01:22 PM
Thanks for the information Todd. As usual it appears that maximum lbs per acre depends soley on the pond owner's willingness to spend time and money on "his/her" project through feed, water quality, aeration, and upkeep. While I don't agree with you that most of the members here are into a lot of upkeep (rather they are individuals who want a "decent" pond for casual fishing), I do appreciate your taking the time to research that info for me. Differences of opinion are healthy... that is how we learn.

Regardless of our experiences, our jobs, our age, or any other factors I believe we can all agree that learning is a daily job for each of us. The day we refuse to learn from one other is the day we might as well ball up and die.

Thanks again,

Deb
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 02:07 PM
Thanks to Todd for posting Bob Lusk's excellent remarks. In an effort to advance our collective knowledge of the subject, I'd like to raise a couple of points for further discussion.

First, Bob stated "an average pond owner can expect to grow as much as 400-600 pounds of HSB in a one acre pond, all things being even for the 'right' habitat"

I will yield to his superior wisdom, but it still sounds high to me based on my limited experience. It isn't 1000 pounds, but still sounds high. Larger HSB (larger than three pounds) suffer 100% mortality from angling in my ponds in summer temps, regardless of tackle used. This has made me question the sustainability of a large biomass of large HSB...not to mention the viability of the fish as a large pond predator. Is this observation unique to my pond only? Perhaps. I intend to do more experimentation on this question in the future as it bears significantly on the viability of HSB as a small pond predator to meet my pond objectives. Bruce is the only person I have read that has warned about this danger, and I now understand his warnings and respect him even more, if that is possible.

Second, Bob, in the paragraph on HBG, stated "A pond could grow as many as 1,000 pounds of HSB, but water quality issues would quickly follow."

Did Bob mean HBG in that paragraph or HSB? Or maybe both?
Posted By: george Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 02:28 PM
Larger HSB (larger than three pounds) suffer 100% mortality from angling in my ponds in summer temps, regardless of tackle used.

ML, how many 5 # summertime HSB have you caught and released during the life of your pond?

How do you monitor survivability?
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 02:40 PM
None yet...that is what I plan to do this summer and what I meant in part by additional experimentation. My oldest HSB are just now approaching 5 pounds.

It is a "catch 22"...on the one hand I want to grow larger HSB, and on the other, I'd like to catch some during prime summer fishing times. Last summer, I shut it down completely to the extent I could when I observed the mortality from angling on the largest HSB fish...it isn't hard to recognize a dead 4 pound fish.

My temps in June through September run 100 daytime and 80 at night. Hence, the average pond water temps are around 85 degrees....much higher at the surface layers through which the HSB must fight when caught by a fisherperson. I wonder if the fight in that upper level of water which is probably at least 90 degrees is the death knell for the large HSB. I don't know, but intend to find out a lot more this summer.
Posted By: ealong59 Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 02:46 PM
This has been discussed before, because I remember reading a study that showed that stripers and hybrids were suseptable to high mortality if caught in the heat of summer. I don't think having them is the problem, it's catching them when it's hot out. You'd have to do a search to find link though, I don't have time.
Posted By: george Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 03:10 PM
I commend you for your HSB growth, as well as your fishing skills.

We first stocked 100, 4-6 inch HSB in the fall of 2003.
I rightly or wrongly recall that we first stocked about the same time?

With limited hot weather experience it is difficult for me take make survivability assumptions, but have yet to catch any over 3#’s.
We did have a LMB predation problem however, and not certain the numbers that survived.

Due to 7+ inches of rain in one day on new pond renovation dirt, our pond is muddy, so no 4 pounders to report this spring.
Posted By: ewest Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 03:57 PM
The link in this post which some have read has info on HSB summer temps and effects and raises some questions.

Looking for info on HSB in ponds. Check out this thesis link - study. It was the basis for a peer reviewed study which some may have. This is the longer version with some interesting charts on things like water charts on where they ate and avoided and how they effected other fishes including a regular LMB/BG pond.

http://uaex.edu/wneal/pages/Publications/Publications/manuscripts/thesis.pdf


Here is the thread link.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000450;p=1#000000
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 04:01 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by ealong59:
I don't think having them is the problem, it's catching them when it's hot out.
ealong59,

Catching them is kind of one of my objectives ;\)

Considering the amount of expensive feed they require to attain the growth I've experienced, eating them isn't enough to justify the feed costs for me. Catching them more than once in the summer would add to a justification for their existance in my ponds....just having them does not for me, personally.
Posted By: ealong59 Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 08:51 PM
ML
I'm not asking you to stop catching them, I don't think I could do that my own self, but you may have to fish very early or very late for your HSB to keep the mortality rate down. \:D

Here's that link to those 2 studies on stripers, that have the same high mortality rates on summer catch and release.
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002407

You do have some TGG's you need to keep sampling, maybe the warmer part of the day's a good time for this. Just grab a pole with some light line or maybe a flyrod, and have at it, and I bet you'd have as much fun as the grandkids :p
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 09:06 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by ealong59:
You do have some TGG's you need to keep sampling, maybe the warmer part of the day's a good time for this. Just grab a pole with some light line or maybe a flyrod, and have at it, and I bet you'd have as much fun as the grandkids :p
Thanks for the link...and you know what, I'm not ashamed to say that catching those TGG's is as much fun for me as any fish I catch anywhere. ;\)

Well, ok maybe not as much fun as a Tarpon or bonefish, but its all fun, isn't it?
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 09:16 PM
ML, was it you or George (or someone else) who posted the story of the HSB who "died with honor," literally giving everything he had fighting the line and then expired pretty much right after being landed?

They have many other good characteristics, but that post sold me on the HSB as a sporting fish.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 09:59 PM
That was me Theo...I thought it was a character attribute at the time. Only later, when I realized that every single one of the large ones was dieing in hot weather, did I realize it may be a character flaw instead of an attribute in the southern latitudes.

The more I know, the less I know.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: Structure? - 04/20/06 10:11 PM
I've also seen HSB die after a fight in cool water, but much more frequently in warm water. Another interesting note is that sometimes a HSB will suffer from a cramp after a warm water fight. They will curl up and can't draw oxygen. You can salvage many of these fish if you run them through the water, face first, rapidly back and forth. The air across the gills will allow them to "uncramp". It's a Kreb's Cycle thing, I guess. :rolleyes:
Posted By: george Re: Structure? - 04/21/06 12:01 AM
It's fun to fight a fish on light tackle, but hard on the fish - any fish.

I make a practice to land the fish quickly, do not handle (I use a Boga Grip), revive it as Buce suggests, and return it to the water as soon as possible.

For striped bass, I use 9 and 10 wt flyrods on Lake Texoma - not only to land fish as quickly as possible, but to turn the fish from mean structure.

The same holds true on our ponds - 5 wt for BG - 9 wt fly rod for LMB and HSB.

If you follow these practices your survival rate will improve dramaically.

George Glazener
Posted By: Brettski Re: Structure? - 04/21/06 12:56 AM
I continue to sit in awe as I read the fish threads that you guys produce. The depth of your collective hypotheses and analyzation is fascinating...borderline geeky. 7 months ago, I didn't give a hoot about fish. Today, I can't help but be drawn in and continue to read on. This is the first time, tho, that I have encountered such an interesting set of "mortality challenges" for one species as has been noted WRT HSB (to you guys, this is probably "old hat"). When Bruce sums up:
 Quote:
Another interesting note is that sometimes a HSB will suffer from a cramp after a warm water fight. They will curl up and can't draw oxygen. You can salvage many of these fish if you run them through the water, face first, rapidly back and forth. The air across the gills will allow them to "uncramp". It's a Kreb's Cycle thing, I guess.
...I have to read stuff like this twice and reassure myself that he's not goofin'....the fish neophyte sits here shakin' his head "whodathunk?" I'll be damned if I get caught off guard when the next post describes prescribed execution of the Heimlich maneuver on HSB to expel a deeply embedded hook. ;\)
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Structure? - 04/21/06 01:05 PM
Brettski,

Its all about knowledge....expanding it, capturing it, pushing it beyond the limits, so that everyone can benefit.

You do the same things with your posts, whether you realize it or not...you are expanding the collective knowledge of this community and that, my friend, is what its all about, for me.
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