Has anyone tried the method of carpet roll tubes as a base to get Christmas trees to stand vertically on the pond floor? Basically put a tree in a carpet roll tube, fill with concrete and lower them to the bottom so they stand up in the water column.

Any other method you guys have used that work to keep trees standing vertically for a number of years?

I have around 200 trees to plant in a big lake.

Dave

Dave -- the carpet roll tube method works well, but is time-consuming. When we do a 200-tree project, we usually have a good-sized group of people. The primary advantage, of course, is setting those trees in an upright placement.

I'll see what other comments you get before I say anything else. :-) Usually lots of good ideas here.

Dave

Dave:

I have a group of 30 volunteers ready to go! I wonder if the trees will remain upright by cementing the bases? I am looking for a source for the carpet roll tubes now. I have not seen any with a diameter greater than about 6". Were you able to find them in 12" diameter or do you use the smaller diameter tubes and just put the tree base in and provide a longer length of tube to hold more concrete? How many pounds of quickcrete do you think I need to use to sink and keep a 5' cedar Christmas tree on the bottom? I don't want them to move around when guys snag them when fishing.

In the past I have used wire and attached the base of the tree to a block of concrete. Over time I note that they end up laying on their side in the mud on the bottom.

I was thinking of grouping the trees in 10 tree groupings in shallow water (10') with immediate access to deep water slopes and drop offs. I have lots of hard mud points (devoid of hard wood) and some rocky islands (1' - 3' boulder rocks) that should be perfect spots to have tree structure on them to help attract and concentrate the bass plus add shelter for bluegill. I have a lot of water fluctuation in our 100 acre lake. Our lake has risen better than 10' in the last two weeks...amazing amount of rain we are getting now...still raining! Our lake rises on the average 3" for every inch of rain we get.

Thanks for your input...please tell me more on how I can do my Christmas tree project.

Dave

Hi Dave. A few more thoughts.

Yes, these trees do stand upright for many years. Of course, we typically drop them where there are several feet of water over top of the trees (safety reasons in public waters). If you let them sink, and release them upright, they do stand up. I don't think they would come up with any type of "normal" fishing line, but those flathead catfish guys might dredge one up? :-) Remember, the wood also waterlogs, and they get pretty heavy. When we were doing studies on yellow perch spawning, we'd lift them with a 3/8 or 1/2 inch poly rope.

Obviously, you never can say never, as some might tip. However, last summer I went over a 200-tree reef that we placed through the ice about 10 years ago. Many, many of those trees (no way or really telling) are still standing upright as shown on my electronics while fishing.

I don't have a good feel for just how much those 12 inch bases weigh when they have 6-8 inches of concrete. Let me check in with my buddy at the Game, Fish and Parks office tomorrow. He's a practical guy, and may have a guess for you. I also wonder if the 12-inch width wouldn't be a lot more stable than a 6-inch diameter on the base. We got those carpet tubes at a carpet store -- nothing special, to the best of my recollection.

I have at times just sunk trees in piles, using cinder blocks or concrete blocks for weight. I'm not sure that those light cinder blocks can take down more than one Christmas tree. A heavy cement block can take down two or three, depending on how big they are. If you have some cedar trees, they take quite a bit more weight. I remember one time working with a bass club in Kansas. I had one cement block cabled to a good size cedar tree. I pushed it over, and it floated! That's a tad bit embarassing, and hard on your credibility! Now, it's mostly just funny.

If you attach trees to the blocks with wire or cable, I'd suggest you stack them pretty several trees deep. As they settle, you want to maintain some vertical height on the overall structure. Also, I've seen people nail, screw, or wire Christmas trees to pallets to create 3-d structures (pallet on bottom, four trees at corners, pallet at top, etc.). Those are good ideas, too.

I like the idea of 10-tree groups (depending on whether you stack them or not), and I really like putting the trees on the edges of drop-offs, etc., as you said. Good plan.

Again, I'll bet you'll get some more ideas here over the next day or so.

Dave

Dave not sure if easier or harder. here you go. Place small piece of 4x4 in bottom of 5 gallon bucket (Free from pool or sheetrock guys). Place tree in bucket sacrete with 3/4 80 lb bag. On outside of bucket attach with ringshank nails 2 1X4's cut 3 ft in length. This is nailed into the small 4x4 inside bucket. Spin the 1x4 to form an X. They stand pretty well. Only problem trees only last about 4 years. Have fun!

Do cedars of the same size last longer than Xmas trees? 4 years doesn't seem long enough.

Nope 4 years as about all we get out of all types of conifer species. HArdwood seems to last longer. This is why we make artifical "trees" with PVC. More money up front but will be there forever.

Greg:

Do you have any pictures or links to pictures of pvc tree structures?

Dave

Thanks Dave. Let me know what your buddy has to say.

Dave

Dave-
I am not sure about the longevity of this method seeing as how we just tried it, and it would probably be a bit costly for a big job of 200 trees (we only did 4)...but here's what we did:

First we took old tire rims (ours were 4 rims off an old ford pickup) and inserted the trees upright down through the middle of the rims. Next, we drilled two holes near the base of the tree about a foot apart, so one hole would be just above the top of the rim and the other just below the bottom of the rim. The catch here is that the holes need to be opposite each other (almost like they would intersect to make an X if they weren't a foot apart) Next, we took 2 ft. long pieces of 3/8" rebar and put one through each hole (1ft. might work, depending on tree and rim size). After welding the rebar to the rims, the tree is locked in place. Since the pieces of rebar are not running the same direction, the tree cannot slide from side to side while inside the rim either. We put them in the pond last weekend, some completely submerged and some about 6" sticking out of the water. It has worked like a charm so far. Like I said, I don't know how that would work on a large scale, but for our small job it worked. With the rims, rebar, and welding, the trees are also not tipping over or moving an inch any time soon. I took some pictures of the process, and I'll try to post a few if anyone would care to see. Hope that helps and have fun with it!

Dave V

Gentlemen,
Dave Willis wrote a great article about this very subject in Pond Boss, November/December, last issue...hmmm, anybody out there read this magazine? I heard it's pretty good. Subscriptions available.

Bob, your comment - "last issue...hmmm, anybody out there read this magazine? I heard it's pretty good. Subscriptions available. " I have a subsription to your magazine and have turned on others to buy subcriptions too. I read the last article by Dave. It was a good one by the way Dave...thanks for posting here and expanding on it.

Is there a problem with asking questions on topics that have been recently written about in your magazine? Maybe I am taking your post the wrong way?

Cheers,

Dave

P.S. - Big Dave, Dave and Greg...thanks for your ideas...I appreciate them guys. It is great to have a site like this where I can come to get lots of ideas on pond and lake management from others willing to share.

I'd like to follow-up with Greg or anyone else who has made artificial "trees" out of PVC or other materials. I have a perch population in my pond and was told they need a structure off from the bottom to string their eggs. Since we are in the doldrums of winter, it might be a good time for us members to work on projects such as this to install in the spring and enjoy the summer. So, any digital PHOTOS of "trees" or other easy and inexpensive artificial habitats to make would probably be most appreciated. There have been some fantastic ideas shared in this forum.

Photos -

Here is a picture of a bluegill structure we build and have placed in the center of shallow coves. We have 20 of these around the 80 acre lake. We add brush to them annually and re-sink them. They are made of 1" PVC pipe with snow fence zip tied around the 5'x 5'x 5' shape. We have the corner's of the pens weighted with 3 lb. lead weights. The holes in the fence allow bluegill to access the center of the pen and keep larger bass out. They can snag lures like crank baits, but otherwise are ok with a Texas rigged worm. They act as great bass magnets and cover for bluegill.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/ahieater/DSC00918.jpg

Here are some photos of large trees that I placed in the shallows with access to a drop off. These structures are now under approx. 10' of water. I attached them to the lake bottom by staking them down with heavy wire attached to concrete blocks I buried in the bottom. They act as great magnets for bass. I placed approx. 20 of these hard wood trees in the lake this dry season. Hard work...but worth the effort when you can drive your boat around a lake and know exactly where to cast to catch bass consistently. I have all the structure photographed at the low water levels when it is placed and the GPS location of each recorded. I carry all the photos and GPS numbers on laminated sheets in a binder that I carry on my boat when fishing. My wife says that I'm cheating and making fishing too easy..lol.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/ahieater/DSC00662.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/ahieater/DSC00663.jpg

Hope this helps. Anyone have any structure photos they could share?

Dave

Say, DaveB -- I got an answer back from my buddy (Todd St. Sauver) on an approximate weight of cement in those 12-inch diameter tubes.

"They average 50 pounds but can vary quite a bit. We don't cut all tubes to the exact same length and we vary the amount of concrete by the size of the tree. Nothing scientific, we just WAG it. Less concrete for smaller trees, more for bigger ones."

Too many Dave's on this post!! :-) We better start adding initials.

Dave "W"

Dave B. asked- "Is there a problem with asking questions on topics that have been recently written about in your magazine? Maybe I am taking your post the wrong way?"

Dave, I'm sure Bob Lusk was just telling all forum readers that if they wanted to read a complete article about Xmas trees as structure that a good one was printed in a recent PBoss magazine.

I'm sure all questions are welcome on the forum esp when they lead to more indepth information and additional details.

Dave B,
You are new. Do a search using Bob's member number as criteria & you will answer your own question.
As long as it's pond related it is welcome here.
If you had a magazine with a related article in a recent issue would you not reference it in this thread?
I've been following this thread also & thought of the article but dumb me it didn't occur to mention it.
Wish I had done so now so Bob wouldn't of had to.

"Too Many Daves?" Which one of you is Bodkin Van Horn?

Theo -- should we start calling you Dr. Seuss?? :-)

DaveB it is embrassing I have no pictures of my own PVC creations. My excuse is that I bough a $550 digitial camera and dropped first week. It was $450 to repair. I'm about to break down after a year and get another one.

Anyway there are tons of pictures around on past issues of POnd Boss and internet. It seems from your pictures your creative. Just start stacking pvc in buckt of concrete and see how it turns out. We usually put a 45 or 90 on end wit another short piece to add some "character". Really no wrong way to make 'em. Great Tire idea too!

DaveB--Thank you for the pictures. The bluegill crib looks like a pretty good device for not only protecting fry and minnows, but also to support perch egg "strings" during their spring spawn. I think the snow fencing is crucial to provide a surface for the gellatous mass to cling to, as I don't know that PVC alone would allow that to happen. I hope Greg breaks down and gets a new camera to see his ideas. If there are other pictures of artificial structures out there and you can identify them, it would be most appreciated. In the meantime, can anyone provided an educated guess as to how many structures should be sunk per acre of water, as well as the most favorbale places to sink them? May seem like a dumb question, But it may help all of us to do things right. Thanks folks, for any other contributions or advice.

Here's a post by Bob Lusk:

(Bold by me)

Here's another thread:

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000020

There are dozens of threads on structure, just search for structure.

Thanks, Ric. I will work with all of these posts and ideas. I especially like the information on how many and where to place these structures.

FOr what it's worth, We used the 5 gallon bucket(greatest invention known to man) method with sacrete. HOwever,we cut off about about a foot from the top of the tree and inserted the tree upside down so the bottom of the tree is at the top. We also added several 2" hardwood branches.

I set Christmas trees in 5 gallon buckets standing straight up in concrete. I trimmed the lower branches so that the bottom of the tree would sit flush on the bottom of the bucket. I left 2 inch stubs when I cut the lower branches to help hold the tree in the concrete and also hammered in 2 long nails into the trunk. I plan to loop a rope through the handle of the bucket to be able to lower the tree where I want it in the lake. If I don't get it in the right spot, I should be able to lift the tree with the rope and move it. Once I get it placed properly, I can just pull the rope out. Sounds easy, but I will find out this weekend.

Check here for a couple more photos of tree/pallet structures.

http://www.ngpc.state.ne.us/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004988

dave b, i posted somewhere a year or so ago about my pvc trees. i built a long white vinyl pvc fence. lots of left over parts; had to cut some of the bottoms of the post and rails etc. also, you can check for left overs from a fence company or plumbing company. i took those, drilled holes thru them and thread them on stiff rebar. then anchored them in in quickreted buckets. put some old bent fence posts x'd on bottom to keep upright. worked well. also, on some of them, i took some metal fence posts, drove them as far in as i could leaving a few feet out, then tied xmas trees and pvc trees to it with plastic duck decoy wire to keep trees upright. the post method was the easiest. easier to do as pond is filling . otherwise, get some scuba gear which is what i did on some of the trees/posts. hope this helps, mark williams ilovefishingmark wish i could find the pictures somewhere.

So no one misunderstands...my comment was partly tongue in cheek. I certainly welcome questions, but I also welcome paying customers. We have chosen to keep this site free, to provide the best information to all comers. As you all know, this site has taken a life all its own, and I love it. But, I would be remiss not to remind everyone to be sure and buy a subscription. It's what fuels the magazine as well as this website.
No harm intended...just offering everyone the opportunity to buy a subscription.
So there. Thanks, friends and subscribers.

I've placed a couple of back issues of Pond Boss out in the waiting room of my dental office. Both were immediately stolen so they must be pretty darn informative!

I'll have Kathy send a couple more. Let's nab those thieves.

I sit outside of your office and send your patients in to take them and give them to me. It is cheaper than a sub.

If you're still looking for carpet tubes, go to any home supply store (Menard's, Blowes, etc) or a local lumber yard and ask for Sono Tubes.

8"-16" diameter cardboard tubes used for pouring footings of concrete. Waxed, they hold up for months and are cheap (12" x 48" was about $5 last time I bought them.)

I only hadda use about a 6" piece to hold down the average xmas tree (maybe 15-20 lbs of crete).

Has anyone tried anchoring the bottom of the trres with concrete, and wiring a 2 liter bottle to the top of the tree to give extra bouancy at the top causing it to float vertically?

Matt:

That is exactly what I did. Home Depot sells cardboard concrete forming tubes. I found that carpet roll tubes were too small of a diameter to sink a tree. The tubes I used are 12" diameter and 4' in length. I cut the tube to 12" sections with a chain saw to produce 4 tubes per tube. Then I placed two ropes between two trees with the rope placed about 4' off the ground. Next put the tubes on level ground, drop in a tree and fill with the cheapest concrete you can buy using a 5 gallon bucket. I bough concrete from the same Home Depot - 90 lb. bags for
$ 2.10 per bag and rented the mixer from them too. Fill each 12" x 12" tube with 11" deep of concrete. Last have the ropes hanging on each side of the trees so that the concrete cures over the course of two days and the trees stand up right. This amount of concrete per tube sunk every 4' - 7' tree with no problem. I ended up putting 225 trees in the lake over the course of three days working by myself. I used two of our docks as a barge to transport the trees (50 per load) and pulled the barge around with me boat to the various pre-selected and marked with a buoy spots. I grouped the trees in tight 10 - 25 tree groups on points and underwater islands with immediate access to deep water. The trees are in 10' - 25' of water now. After placing the trees I took GPS positions of each of the clumps. These have become key spots for me to catch bass in my lake. Amazing what good structure will do to attract bass. Lots of work but well worth the effort.

Dave

Dave B, 225 trees? Just goes to show that there's nothing a labor of love can't accomplish. If I recall, you have a pretty good size pond/lake.

So how does next week sound for me a few PB forum members to come out and fish?

I used plastic pots that plants came in. Had several just laying around. Cut the cedar trees, put nails in the trunks and put the quikcrete in. When the crete dried I cut the plastic pots off and sank the trees. Seemed to work okay

i use 6' to 8' christmas tree , cut one side flush and hold it down with couple rocks. get alot more habitat , fish love it. we all want happy fish

I've used both cleaned anti-freeze and bleach bottles wired close to the top of cedar trees for years.Tie to the main trunk and use heavy concrete blocks Tied to the base of the cedar. On pond bottoms slopes they tend to remain in place and upright. Buckets with concrete would tip on uneven surfaces and tree would be on its side. Kids running a gas motor on a boat caused many of my buckets and cross braced wood to fall over.

I picked up 10 of this years Xmas trees. I want to add to the original 4 structures with a additional tree or two to each.

I was thinking of just laying down 4 or 5 trees with the trunk twards the bank and placing them 2 to 3 feet apart in a row. The bank has a nice slope leading into about 5 foot of water. What do you guys think?

Joey:

They'll last about 2-3 years at best, that way. That's what mine do, anyway. If I sink them completely, they seem to last a lot longer...just off shore, in maybe 7 meet of water...

Joey :

Tell us what you want from the xmas trees. Cover to concentrate fish for fishing or for an aid to spawning and protection of yoy fry. Where is the existing cover/structure and where do you think the BG will be nesting ?

Everyplace that there is things in the water, either a laydown or dock or grass, there is always fish around. Little ones big ones etc. On that bank the bass spawn near the point and one spawned almost in the corner. The whole bank is a tapering slope with basically nothing on it. I layed a old RR tie but other then that its bare. There are very few fish there when I look the pond over. I was just thinking by laying the trees down it might pull small fish in and maybe bigger ones hang by the tops of the trees in the deeper water. By spacing them I figure it gives a casting lane, plus maybe a place for one to tuck up and spawn, also give the sunfish a place to hang out semi protected.

My only suggestion would be to put a couple of xmas trees on the back (deep side) of the island in addition to where you have them drawn. I would space them out by depth also.

Ya, I got enough. I could do 3 on the deep side of the island, 3 where I figured and one more on each of last years structures. There gonne be on a sharp drop on the backside of the island. When the trackhow dug that part it was just about vertical.

In the first pic, the trackhoes boom is pointing to where you sugested to put the trees.

In the second pic to the right of the pick is the backside of the island or the old dam. That aria you see is covered in about 10 inches of water then it tapers up to land, but the drop off is a sharp vertical drop right to the bottom into about 6 feet then it tapers to about 7 1/2. I just felt like sharing the pics...!

That sounds like a good plan to me. An xmas tree laying down on a steep slope should be a good spot.